LDS Freedom Forum

oneClimbs wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2023, 4:02 pm

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 9:03 am I'm thinking of switching over to a plant based diet for several different reasons. Have any of you made the switch and if so, can you share some of your experiences?

Thanks.

Mike

I switched to a whole food plant-based diet back around 2011. I lost 40 lbs and my health improved tremendously. Today, I'm 43 and very active. I'm 6' tall and weigh in at about 200lbs, I've spent years weight lifting to increase strength and muscle mass and I also train Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu 3-5 days per week. I suffered a severe back injury when I was 25 and a plant-based diet is anti-inflammatory which helps a ton in keeping my back pain at bay.

I have eggs and small amounts of cheese occasionally. In public, I will sometimes eat meat if it is served to me and a key part of a generously offered meal that cannot be avoided. I will also eat it at times to avoid it going to waste so that the life of the animal isn't completely in vain. I don't stress about it, I don't make a big deal about it, the vast majority of my life I feel meshes with the Lord's will in this regard and any exceptions are very sparingly as directed. Paul taught that we shouldn't use what we eat or drink to be the means for harming someone Christ died for. More about that here: https://oneclimbs.com/2019/06/02/bringi ... -discords/

The one thing I have concluded after reading every dietary law or instruction contained in the scriptures and by analyzing everything our leaders ever said in this regard: https://oneclimbs.com/2017/07/09/statem ... lications/ and my own experiments upon the word, I have arrived at a general understanding. I think the principles taught in D&C 89 demonstrate that we should each do the same for ourselves and to never command or constrain others.

I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan, I simply state that I pursue a whole food plant-based diet. It's not about avoiding things, it is about pursuing what is best for my own constitution, nature, and use and what is wholesome and contributes to my overall well-being temporarily and spiritually. I think that will look different for everyone.

I believe that Jesus ate fish because it was a genuine need then. If you live in a climate, area of the world, or harsh seasonality that cannot sustain a healthy life on the available plants alone, then consuming the flesh of animals is ordained of God. But here where I live, I have access to an insane array of plants that all contain the necessary elements to support a thriving life. I don't require animal flesh at all, it's not necessary so I don't consume it. Instead, I enjoy a more vast array of plants that I never consumed back when I did eat meat.

I had Jane Birch on my podcast a while back, and we had a conversation covering a number of things you might find useful: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/1 ... 0558692055

A bit of advice I give to people considering going in this direction is to do it gradually. A trick I used is to think of the foods I loved the most, and then found other options that were healthier and that I even liked more. Then, I wasn't missing out on anything. Start with breakfast, that's the easiest.

For breakfast I will make amazing oatmeal full of fruit, shakes, acai bowls, pancakes, waffles, various healthy cereals with oatmilk, sprouted grain toast with peanut butter, and I'll even do eggs scrambled or breakfast tacos.

For lunches or dinners you can do the same types of foods. Veggie sandwiches, spaghetti and pastas with marinara, Buddha bowls with many varieties of vegetables, numerous Indian dishes and curries, numerous Asian dishes, stir fried assortments of various vegetables, baked vegetables, potatoes of all kinds (the most satiating food there is), salads, wraps, the list goes on and on.

Honestly, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. I don't really eat those fake meats either, there are tons and tons of options out there.

I looked at the photos, what I see is that by your diet, you had a small baby turn into a beautiful woman?

Telavian wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2023, 4:06 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2023, 3:47 pm Good for you! Read Bill Gates website! I'm sure he knows the best meat substitutes and would NEVER lead you astray.

Why the need to be condescending? I won't touch a beyond burger with a 10 foot pole.
I would wager by diet is far healthier than yours and you are the one mocking me?

I'm sorry if it came across that way. I wasn't even responding to you. I was talking generally about what I've been seeing the past year or two, maybe since covid. I meant nothing to or about you!

My input was meant to be sarcastic! I mean if you read his website on his algae based food, he clearly says anyone who doesn't go his way is destroying the earth and not being healthy! He has pages such on why his plant-based substitutes are great!

So, in a more rounded statement. I feel that saying "plant based" as opposed to some other term, is exactly what Bill and co. are using! it is a woke term BTW. Perhaps a statement on of general health or what plants or something. But, where I live "plant based" means anti-climate, kill the cows, stop eating meat, woke. Perhaps not the case where you live, but surely on FF all the woke discussions of bovines and their constant farting and creating gases has been discussed at length.

TheDuke wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2023, 4:12 pm So, in a more rounded statement. I feel that saying "plant based" as opposed to some other term, is exactly what Bill and co. are using! it is a woke term BTW. Perhaps a statement on of general health or what plants or something. But, where I live "plant based" means anti-climate, kill the cows, stop eating meat, woke. Perhaps not the case where you live, but surely on FF all the woke discussions of bovines and their constant farting and creating gases has been discussed at length.

I would say God wants us to be smart about everything we do. There is some truth to the far left agenda and there is some truth to the far right agenda. We can't fully demonize either side. If we don't need to slaughter billions of animals every year then I think that is a good thing.

"Plant based" is a trend that in some ways can be more unhealthy than meat certainly.

Telavian wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2023, 4:19 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2023, 4:12 pm So, in a more rounded statement. I feel that saying "plant based" as opposed to some other term, is exactly what Bill and co. are using! it is a woke term BTW. Perhaps a statement on of general health or what plants or something. But, where I live "plant based" means anti-climate, kill the cows, stop eating meat, woke. Perhaps not the case where you live, but surely on FF all the woke discussions of bovines and their constant farting and creating gases has been discussed at length.

I would say God wants us to be smart about everything we do. There is some truth to the far left agenda and there is some truth to the far right agenda. We can't fully demonize either side. If we don't need to slaughter billions of animals every year then I think that is a good thing.

"Plant based" is a trend that in some ways can be more unhealthy than meat certainly.

Plant based is part of the WEF’s agenda to weaken and reduce the population.

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 9:03 am I'm thinking of switching over to a plant based diet for several different reasons. Have any of you made the switch and if so, can you share some of your experiences?

Thanks.

Mike

People read this ^ again.

Mike asked for experiences of those who have tried switching to a plant based diet. If you haven’t ever tried it, then there is no need for you to weigh in and tell us all how evil and unhealthy a plant based diet is.

I've been fighting the feeling that we need to move towards more plant based, eat meat sparingly diet,
I am a three meal a day and meat at every meal guy. I love grilling and I love sushi and I pretty much like eating almost any kind of meat I have tried. Mackerel sushi and liver in general being the exceptions, Anyway, I hate the direction I am being pulled.

Everything I have read, soy as it is currently used as a meat replacement or just protein is a bad choice for men. A little is OK, but trying to get all your protein from soy is gonna emasculate you. I could be wrong on that.

Most of us could do with more veggies, less starch and less protein. Fat is actually good as I understand it, and low fat diets are a bad idea.

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2023, 4:50 pm

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 9:03 am I'm thinking of switching over to a plant based diet for several different reasons. Have any of you made the switch and if so, can you share some of your experiences?

Thanks.

Mike

People read this ^ again.

Mike asked for experiences of those who have tried switching to a plant based diet. If you haven’t ever tried it, then there is no need for you to weigh in and tell us all how evil and unhealthy a plant based diet is.

Good point, I haven't. I have eaten a decent amount of TVP, which again I think for a man is a bad idea.

First of all, vegan athletes are rare. The reason for this is quite simple.

Two, the vegan athletes who achieve excellent results rely on plant-based protein.

Studies show that similar muscle gains can be achieved with plant-based protein as long as the daily protein requirements are met.

See:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36822394/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33599941/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29722584/

However, there's a huge difference between short-term studies where participants get their diets tailored by nutritionists and provided with free protein so they get enough...

... or highly motivated, well-paid, professional athletes with personal nutritionists making sure they get enough protein by providing them with tasty, protein-rich plant-based meals...

... versus the average busy person with limited time, nutritional knowledge and cooking skills trying to do the same thing on their own.

For example, research shows that people who don't eat animal food eat less protein...

See:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33341313/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31690027/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24667136/

Studies also show that deficiencies in vitamin B12 and omega 3 are common amongst people who don't eat animal foods.

See:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33341313/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25369925/

There also seem to be higher risks of low bone density, fractures, depression and mental health issues when not eating animal foods.

See:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30376075/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32308009/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30404246/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30376075/

Even people who receive ongoing help from nutritionists struggle to get enough protein.

Example:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36822394/

This study found that muscle gains were similar on a vegan and omnivore diet.

So it works *if* you can get enough protein.

The question is can the average person get enough protein consistently. The vegan group in this study struggled to eat enough protein despite ongoing help from nutritionists. Not eating enough protein is a problem when trying to build muscle and strength. Protein is required to build and repair muscle.

Now, many people don't know this, but many vegetarians eat meat.

See:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... ns-part-2/

For example, the first study found that 48% of self-identified vegetarians eat meat, 65% eat eggs, and 93% eat dairy.

This tells you that terms like "vegetarian" and "vegan" don't necessarily mean what you think they mean. Many people adopt these labels for other reasons.

What is a sure thing is your body needs protein to build and repair muscle. This is not impossible without animal foods. But it's harder.

That's why vegan athletes are rare.

In fact, 84% of vegans and vegetarians return to an omnivore diet due to health reasons and dissatisfaction with the diet.

https://faunalytics.org/wp-content/uplo ... Report.pdf

The instinct to eat animal food may simply be too strong to overcome. Or maybe vegan/vegetarian is a really difficult approach with very little success...

Stay away from anything processed (eat real unadulterated meat). Eat lots of real veggies with the meat...does wonders...

Meat actually contains several nutrients that are cancer-preventive (!!!). And avoiding meat can result in nutritional deficiencies.

See:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31486336/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11965516/

What's more, most people don't eat meat in isolation. They eat it with other foods and cook it in certain ways.

It turns out that what you eat with the meat can change the impact that the meat has on your health.

Simply eliminating meat from your diet is not automatically going to make you healthier.

In fact, people who don't eat animal foods don't seem to live longer than people who eat meat.

See:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10479225/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19297458/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26657045/

That's because it's very possible for someone to not eat meat while still eating highly processed foods with added sugars, fats, and oils while smoking, drinking, and not exercising.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32751091/

This is a study of several thousands of men from Canada, aged 35 to 69. They looked at their intake of meats, vegetables and fruits.

They then estimated the hazard ratio for cancer. That's how likely they are to develop cancer over time.

Here's what they found...

>168g of processed meat per week and <3 servings of vegetables and fruits per day = 1.91 hazard ratio

<42g of processed meat per week and <3 servings of vegetables and fruits per day = 1.56

>500g of unprocessed meat per week and <3 servings of vegetables and fruits per day = 1.31

<250g of unprocessed meat per week and <3 servings of vegetables and fruits per day = 1.04

>500g of unprocessed meat per week and >5 servings of vegetables and fruits per day = 0.78 hazard ratio

There's a clear trend showing a decrease in hazard ratio for cancer.

It's influenced by the type and amount of meat you eat, and the amount of vegetables and fruits that you consume with it.

The hazard ratio is unsurprisingly higher with processed meats than unprocessed ones.

It's also higher when eating less than three servings of vegetables and fruits per day.

But here's what I find interesting...

Look at the hazard ratio of the men who ate +500g of unprocessed meat with +5 servings of vegetables and fruits a day.

It's lower than that of the men eating less than 250g of meat per week and less than 3 servings of vegetables and fruits a day.

It's actually lower than the reference value in the study (<250g meat with +5 servings vegetables).

Here's what this tells me:

1. If you eat lots of meat, you better eat lots of vegetables and fruits (5-6 servings a day is recommended).

2. If you eat little vegetables and fruits, then it doesn't seem wise to eat lots of meat.

3. Unprocessed red meat seems to be cancer-protective when combined with high amounts of vegetables and fruits.

See also this study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11965516/

4. The intake of processed meats should be limited to occasional treats. Eat mostly unprocessed meats instead.

5. Mom was right - we should eat our vegetables.

There's a very simple reason why fruits and vegetables reduce the risk of cancer.

They contain all kinds of vitamins and minerals that can be cancer-protective, as well as fiber.

There are two types of fiber: soluble and insoluble.

Insoluble fiber doesn't dissolve in water. It passes through your gut largely intact. This adds bulk to your stool, making it softer and easier to pass.

The result is less constipation, and faster bowel movements.

Whatever harmful substances you may be eating, your body has less time to absorb them because they exit your system faster.

When people talk about "detox" - this is the way to actually do it. Eat more fiber.

Studies show that people who eat more fiber live longer. Example...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35918724/

Yet the average fiber intake in most countries is only 15g/day. The recommended amount is twice that, 30g/day.

Intakes are low because most people don't eat enough fruits and vegetables. They also don't eat whole grains and nuts but refined grains like white bread that have no fiber.

Statements like "meat is bad" are therefore not very intelligent. Most people don't eat meat in isolation. What you eat with it matters.

A hot dog covered in sauces in white bread is not the same as a lean steak with zucchini and quinoa.

One is fatty, processed meat with refined grains without veggies or fiber.

The other is lean unprocessed meat with veggies, whole grains and plenty of fiber.

Not the same meat, not the same meal, not the same health effects.

Stronger people have a lower risk of cancer.

See:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18595904/

When you eat such a balanced diet, and do regular exercise on top, then your risk of developing cancer goes down.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 590915409/

Gender and diet differences/preferences...is it the diet? or is it the gender? Vegan vs. carnivore? Neither one carried out as recommended is healthy...

Moderation...

For example, spinach is healthy for you.

But this 65y old woman with several health issues went overboard by only having green smoothie juices for 10 days. Two cups of spinach a day resulted in excessive amounts of oxalate. She ended up with kidney failure.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29203127/

Was the spinach the problem? No, the dose was the problem. Anything can be bad for your health if you overdo it - even drinking too much water.

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 9:03 am I'm thinking of switching over to a plant based diet for several different reasons. Have any of you made the switch and if so, can you share some of your experiences?

Thanks.

Mike

Here are some nutrients that vegetarians tend to be deficient in
1. iron
2. vitamin B12
3. vitamin D
4. omega-3 fatty acids

Vegetarian protein powders are also available that take into account the amino acid score.

One of the healthiest foods in the world is the traditional Japanese diet.
Fish rather than meat, unrefined grains, fermented foods that optimize intestinal bacteria, and vegetables rich in minerals and fiber.
Chicken eggs are eaten daily in Japan.
The Japanese also prefer to eat their chicken eggs raw.

TheDuke wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2023, 4:06 pm

oneClimbs wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2023, 4:02 pm

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 9:03 am I'm thinking of switching over to a plant based diet for several different reasons. Have any of you made the switch and if so, can you share some of your experiences?

Thanks.

Mike

I switched to a whole food plant-based diet back around 2011. I lost 40 lbs and my health improved tremendously. Today, I'm 43 and very active. I'm 6' tall and weigh in at about 200lbs, I've spent years weight lifting to increase strength and muscle mass and I also train Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu 3-5 days per week. I suffered a severe back injury when I was 25 and a plant-based diet is anti-inflammatory which helps a ton in keeping my back pain at bay.

I have eggs and small amounts of cheese occasionally. In public, I will sometimes eat meat if it is served to me and a key part of a generously offered meal that cannot be avoided. I will also eat it at times to avoid it going to waste so that the life of the animal isn't completely in vain. I don't stress about it, I don't make a big deal about it, the vast majority of my life I feel meshes with the Lord's will in this regard and any exceptions are very sparingly as directed. Paul taught that we shouldn't use what we eat or drink to be the means for harming someone Christ died for. More about that here: https://oneclimbs.com/2019/06/02/bringi ... -discords/

The one thing I have concluded after reading every dietary law or instruction contained in the scriptures and by analyzing everything our leaders ever said in this regard: https://oneclimbs.com/2017/07/09/statem ... lications/ and my own experiments upon the word, I have arrived at a general understanding. I think the principles taught in D&C 89 demonstrate that we should each do the same for ourselves and to never command or constrain others.

I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan, I simply state that I pursue a whole food plant-based diet. It's not about avoiding things, it is about pursuing what is best for my own constitution, nature, and use and what is wholesome and contributes to my overall well-being temporarily and spiritually. I think that will look different for everyone.

I believe that Jesus ate fish because it was a genuine need then. If you live in a climate, area of the world, or harsh seasonality that cannot sustain a healthy life on the available plants alone, then consuming the flesh of animals is ordained of God. But here where I live, I have access to an insane array of plants that all contain the necessary elements to support a thriving life. I don't require animal flesh at all, it's not necessary so I don't consume it. Instead, I enjoy a more vast array of plants that I never consumed back when I did eat meat.

I had Jane Birch on my podcast a while back, and we had a conversation covering a number of things you might find useful: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/1 ... 0558692055

A bit of advice I give to people considering going in this direction is to do it gradually. A trick I used is to think of the foods I loved the most, and then found other options that were healthier and that I even liked more. Then, I wasn't missing out on anything. Start with breakfast, that's the easiest.

For breakfast I will make amazing oatmeal full of fruit, shakes, acai bowls, pancakes, waffles, various healthy cereals with oatmilk, sprouted grain toast with peanut butter, and I'll even do eggs scrambled or breakfast tacos.

For lunches or dinners you can do the same types of foods. Veggie sandwiches, spaghetti and pastas with marinara, Buddha bowls with many varieties of vegetables, numerous Indian dishes and curries, numerous Asian dishes, stir fried assortments of various vegetables, baked vegetables, potatoes of all kinds (the most satiating food there is), salads, wraps, the list goes on and on.

Honestly, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. I don't really eat those fake meats either, there are tons and tons of options out there.

I looked at the photos, what I see is that by your diet, you had a small baby turn into a beautiful woman?

LOL, pretty amazing, huh?

I use the Mastering Diabetes diet as my guide.look it up on utube, its WFPB.

Im not diabetic, came close to prediabetic a few yrs ago.

I gave up meat 6 years ago because I was suffering from horrendous IBD. I tried many diets, supplements, herbs etc. It was suggested that I give up meat because of how hard it can be to digest. I was desperate.

Well it worked. My gut issue finally calmed after 5 terrible years. I maintained my weight for 5 more years and felt great. But then something else got bad with my health (it started before I gave up meat) and I dropped weight like crazy. I’ve always been thin so this was a serious problem. I got down to my high school weight. (I’m 56 now) Out of desperation to put on weight, I started eating meat again last thanksgiving. I only eat it on weekends.

It was hard in the beginning to give up my beloved burgers, but a website that I really relied on was/is Forks Over Knives. I learned of many different food possibilities and combinations that were really delicious. My husband even likes many of the recipes. (After all he eats what I prepare)

Go off your gut and what feels right. Everyone is different. People thrive differently. What works for one does not always work for another.

I've been vegan for 10 years, two of my children chose it not long after. I thought I'd just try it for a month but I much prefer it. I was vegetarian mostly til then. I do not like meat substitutes but I occasionally have cheese and other dairy substitutes.
My biggest reason for staying vegan (and trying it in the first place) is for health reasons. I was obese and depressed. I have a lot of pain too so i cant eat gluten but it's worth it to not have that agony. It doesn't feel that restrictive, I like salads, potatoes, rice and vegetables etc so i say the hardest part for me is finding ripe fruits. Frustrates me the most.

We were plant based for several years, and we felt very...noble, I guess. However, I can't say that we felt great. We went the other way, low carb, high fat (good fats), and are doing better. Of course, now there are concerns about TPTB putting mRNA in pork and eventually beef (which would affect dairy, I'd assume). But then I heard they're already putting it in lettuce. Lettuce! We use grass fed beef and organic everything, when possible.

NowWhat wrote: ↑November 4th, 2023, 3:22 pm We were plant based for several years, and we felt very...noble, I guess. However, I can't say that we felt great. We went the other way, low carb, high fat (good fats), and are doing better. Of course, now there are concerns about TPTB putting mRNA in pork and eventually beef (which would affect dairy, I'd assume). But then I heard they're already putting it in lettuce. Lettuce! We use grass fed beef and organic everything, when possible.

Yeah it's very difficult these days to try and stay healthy...for example Apeel fruit & vegetable coating from Bill Gates funded Apeel Sciences...is approved for organic as well as conventional...

https://organicconsumers.org/this-weeks ... a-organic/



PEELING BACK THE TRUTH ON APEEL
https://thehighwire.com/ark-videos/peel ... -on-apeel/

There are very few long-term studies of any merit on plant v. animal eating, because they're costly and difficult to control.

There was a Minnesota coronary study in the '70s, which wasn't published till later, 'cause the authors didn't like the results (went against their position, which was giving them money and influence).

Some go plant-based for ethical reasons, tho' all must realise that no matter what is eaten and how we eat, animals died to produce it. In plant ag, many billions of mammals and insects are killed. Regenerative animal ag has a lot to recommend it. Buy a side of beef direct from a rancher who doesn't finish the beef in a CAFO.

hideki wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2023, 7:51 pm

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 9:03 am I'm thinking of switching over to a plant based diet for several different reasons. Have any of you made the switch and if so, can you share some of your experiences?

Thanks.

Mike

Here are some nutrients that vegetarians tend to be deficient in
1. iron
2. vitamin B12
3. vitamin D
4. omega-3 fatty acids

Vegetarian protein powders are also available that take into account the amino acid score.

One of the healthiest foods in the world is the traditional Japanese diet.
Fish rather than meat, unrefined grains, fermented foods that optimize intestinal bacteria, and vegetables rich in minerals and fiber.
Chicken eggs are eaten daily in Japan.
The Japanese also prefer to eat their chicken eggs raw.

Thank you, Hideki; much appreciated.

Mike

Christianlee wrote: ↑November 2nd, 2023, 2:47 pm Perhaps this is why people on the carnivore diet seem to lose weight.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/satiety/meat-poultry

“Eating meat, poultry, and eggs can help you lose weight without going hungry. Why? They provide a lot of satiety — the feeling of being full and satisfied — so you naturally take in fewer calories. Plus, these tasty foods are rich in protein and other essential nutrients.

“In this guide, we provide satiety scores for different types of meat, poultry, and eggs, so you can see which options maximize fullness while minimizing calories. How do your favorites measure up?

“What are high-satiety foods?

“High-satiety foods help you feel as full as possible for the fewest number of calories. In other words, they provide high satiety per calorie.

I tried a high protein diet some while ago and I lasted about 1.5 days. I just could not go any further and it was because all of this protein was making me feel heavy and sluggish.

Mike

oneClimbs wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2023, 4:02 pm

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 9:03 am I'm thinking of switching over to a plant based diet for several different reasons. Have any of you made the switch and if so, can you share some of your experiences?

Thanks.

Mike

I switched to a whole food plant-based diet back around 2011. I lost 40 lbs and my health improved tremendously. Today, I'm 43 and very active. I'm 6' tall and weigh in at about 200lbs, I've spent years weight lifting to increase strength and muscle mass and I also train Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu 3-5 days per week. I suffered a severe back injury when I was 25 and a plant-based diet is anti-inflammatory which helps a ton in keeping my back pain at bay.

I have eggs and small amounts of cheese occasionally. In public, I will sometimes eat meat if it is served to me and a key part of a generously offered meal that cannot be avoided. I will also eat it at times to avoid it going to waste so that the life of the animal isn't completely in vain. I don't stress about it, I don't make a big deal about it, the vast majority of my life I feel meshes with the Lord's will in this regard and any exceptions are very sparingly as directed. Paul taught that we shouldn't use what we eat or drink to be the means for harming someone Christ died for. More about that here: https://oneclimbs.com/2019/06/02/bringi ... -discords/

The one thing I have concluded after reading every dietary law or instruction contained in the scriptures and by analyzing everything our leaders ever said in this regard: https://oneclimbs.com/2017/07/09/statem ... lications/ and my own experiments upon the word, I have arrived at a general understanding. I think the principles taught in D&C 89 demonstrate that we should each do the same for ourselves and to never command or constrain others.

I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan, I simply state that I pursue a whole food plant-based diet. It's not about avoiding things, it is about pursuing what is best for my own constitution, nature, and use and what is wholesome and contributes to my overall well-being temporarily and spiritually. I think that will look different for everyone.

I believe that Jesus ate fish because it was a genuine need then. If you live in a climate, area of the world, or harsh seasonality that cannot sustain a healthy life on the available plants alone, then consuming the flesh of animals is ordained of God. But here where I live, I have access to an insane array of plants that all contain the necessary elements to support a thriving life. I don't require animal flesh at all, it's not necessary so I don't consume it. Instead, I enjoy a more vast array of plants that I never consumed back when I did eat meat.

I had Jane Birch on my podcast a while back, and we had a conversation covering a number of things you might find useful: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/1 ... 0558692055

A bit of advice I give to people considering going in this direction is to do it gradually. A trick I used is to think of the foods I loved the most, and then found other options that were healthier and that I even liked more. Then, I wasn't missing out on anything. Start with breakfast, that's the easiest.

For breakfast I will make amazing oatmeal full of fruit, shakes, acai bowls, pancakes, waffles, various healthy cereals with oatmilk, sprouted grain toast with peanut butter, and I'll even do eggs scrambled or breakfast tacos.

For lunches or dinners you can do the same types of foods. Veggie sandwiches, spaghetti and pastas with marinara, Buddha bowls with many varieties of vegetables, numerous Indian dishes and curries, numerous Asian dishes, stir fried assortments of various vegetables, baked vegetables, potatoes of all kinds (the most satiating food there is), salads, wraps, the list goes on and on.

Honestly, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. I don't really eat those fake meats either, there are tons and tons of options out there.

Thank you very much for the thoughtful response. I agree with your approach as well as the Duke's. I'm sorry I have not followed the discussion until now. I was out of town for the funeral of a close member of the family. Luckily, I enjoy new flavours and like to experiment.

I appreciate very much the photos of your progress. Way to go my friend!

Mike

Jason wrote: ↑November 3rd, 2023, 6:10 pm First of all, vegan athletes are rare. The reason for this is quite simple.

Two, the vegan athletes who achieve excellent results rely on plant-based protein.

Studies show that similar muscle gains can be achieved with plant-based protein as long as the daily protein requirements are met.

See:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36822394/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33599941/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29722584/

However, there's a huge difference between short-term studies where participants get their diets tailored by nutritionists and provided with free protein so they get enough...

... or highly motivated, well-paid, professional athletes with personal nutritionists making sure they get enough protein by providing them with tasty, protein-rich plant-based meals...

... versus the average busy person with limited time, nutritional knowledge and cooking skills trying to do the same thing on their own.

For example, research shows that people who don't eat animal food eat less protein...

See:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33341313/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31690027/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24667136/

Studies also show that deficiencies in vitamin B12 and omega 3 are common amongst people who don't eat animal foods.

See:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33341313/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25369925/

There also seem to be higher risks of low bone density, fractures, depression and mental health issues when not eating animal foods.

See:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30376075/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32308009/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30404246/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30376075/

Even people who receive ongoing help from nutritionists struggle to get enough protein.

Example:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36822394/

This study found that muscle gains were similar on a vegan and omnivore diet.

So it works *if* you can get enough protein.

The question is can the average person get enough protein consistently. The vegan group in this study struggled to eat enough protein despite ongoing help from nutritionists. Not eating enough protein is a problem when trying to build muscle and strength. Protein is required to build and repair muscle.

Now, many people don't know this, but many vegetarians eat meat.

See:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... ns-part-2/

For example, the first study found that 48% of self-identified vegetarians eat meat, 65% eat eggs, and 93% eat dairy.

This tells you that terms like "vegetarian" and "vegan" don't necessarily mean what you think they mean. Many people adopt these labels for other reasons.

What is a sure thing is your body needs protein to build and repair muscle. This is not impossible without animal foods. But it's harder.

That's why vegan athletes are rare.

In fact, 84% of vegans and vegetarians return to an omnivore diet due to health reasons and dissatisfaction with the diet.

https://faunalytics.org/wp-content/uplo ... Report.pdf

The instinct to eat animal food may simply be too strong to overcome. Or maybe vegan/vegetarian is a really difficult approach with very little success...

Thanks, Jason. It might take me a few days to go through all the links but I will definitely take a serious look at them. I appreciate your reply; thanks.

Mike

I will keep you posted about my successes and failures. I think it will be fun to try some of the dishes that are enjoyed by people from all around the world.

Mike

Protein requirements differ by person and by activity levels. Weightlifting folks strive for around 1 gram per day per 1 lb of lean muscle mass. More than that causes issues...can get by on less for sure but that seems to be the gold standard for the competitive types chasing trophies...and many sustain that kind of intake for decades w/o health issues...but they are active and hitting the weights hard.

ransomme wrote: ↑November 5th, 2023, 3:04 pm

Mike Mutzel is a great source of information. I have followed him for several years. Also follow Dr Mercola for general medical and specifically anti-aging diet. I’m an omnivore. As people age they generally lose muscle mass and fulfilling protein requirements and exercise intensity/strength based exercise diminishes.
If you want to be strong and capable as you age, strength train and consume around 1.5 g/kg body weight in good grass fed grass finished beef.
The fewer the ingredients in a food (meat, eggs, vegetables)and eating locally organically grown is ideal.
Eating the ADA, AHA diets will guarantee that you develop diabetes and heart disease.