Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restoration"

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Leland41-2
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Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restoration"

Post by Leland41-2 »

Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restoration"

My idea is that there seem to be quite a few people on this forum dissatisfied with the current LDS church, and my personal question is whether there is a subgroup that would be willing to work on a project of carefully defining the original church, as begun by Christ, and then restored by Joseph Smith, and then either correcting the current badly mangled version of the original church (perhaps using a bit of creativity), or starting some separate operation?

Throughout the history of the world, the correct version of the gospel gets restored from time to time, and then within about 200 years, it is mangled beyond recognition again, just like clockwork. We have gone through that process again, and as we near the 200 year mark, we have a church as mangled as any of them. I am suggesting that through pure scholarship we can get very close to the truth, certainly closer than what we see today. I claim no personal special powers, certainly no prophetic powers, except that I have studied the problem to a ridiculous extent during the last 60 years of my 82 years of life. Rather than see the entire church and the entire nation be extinguished as we read about in Fourth Nephi, I would like to see some people make a heroic effort to fix the problem while we still can. I have written about seven books and have published five of them. That has been enough to get me started in the right direction, I hope. I can see some value in starting a completely new online forum for this project, but I'm not sure I have the energy or life years remaining to make it happen soon enough to matter.

Throughout the entire history of the earth, people have been redefining the gospel, sometimes making it better, but usually making it worse. Nonetheless, it seems like a useful project. Martin Luther made some major improvements, but we should have enough information today to do a much better job than even Martin Luther.

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Original_Intent »

I think we would need a correlation committee <duck>

Leland41-2
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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Leland41-2 »

Original_Intent wrote: October 26th, 2023, 5:18 pm I think we would need a correlation committee <duck>
That is pretty funny. :) I'm sure you are right.

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Wolfwoman »

Sounds good, but we can’t even agree on plural marriage and if it was a part of the restoration or not. 🙂

Denver Snuffer has attempted to preserve the restoration rather than restore the restoration.

Perhaps the davidic servant is needed to restore what needs to be restored that Joseph Smith didn’t get to do during his lifetime.

Juliet
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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Juliet »

Isaac Newton was able to figure out that he was living during a time of apostasy. He most likely was able to use his intellectual abilities to figure it out. I love it when the intellectual and the spirit of the law come into alignment. It seems most issues with church occur when the spirit of the law is not supported by the letter of the law, and possibly even abused.

Juliet
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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Juliet »

Wolfwoman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 5:32 pm Sounds good, but we can’t even agree on plural marriage and if it was a part of the restoration or not. 🙂

Denver Snuffer has attempted to preserve the restoration rather than restore the restoration.

Perhaps the davidic servant is needed to restore what needs to be restored that Joseph Smith didn’t get to do during his lifetime.
That is a great example of when the spirit of the law and the letter of the law don't always line up. But I think when you have people willing to figure it out, that is a step in the right direction. We can talk about the story of Abraham. If God told me to kill one of my children to prove my obedience, by default I would say that that cannot be the true and living God. A true God would not ask that of me, that is bad fruit. Same with polygamy. But then, trusting one's intuition messed up Eve.... so there is a time to trust it and a time not to trust it. Figuring out when to follow the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law seems to be the holy grail. It's like two parts of an X, and X marks the spot.

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by marc »

Just bring back the old Heavenly Gift forum.

4 Nephi 1:3 And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Juliet »

One thought that might be nice is to do a weekly zoom call where we could edify each other with whatever the Lord has put on your heart throughout the week.

Leland41-2
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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Leland41-2 »

Juliet wrote: October 26th, 2023, 5:52 pm One thought that might be nice is to do a weekly zoom call where we could edify each other with whatever the Lord has put on your heart throughout the week.
I think that is an excellent idea. I have a lot of really lovely neighbors, who are as nice as any people you can imagine, but it would also be nice to chat with people with a similar point of view every once in a while – a little sanity check, etc.

The church could be doing so much more good than it is doing, that it makes me feel sad.

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Wolfwoman
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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Wolfwoman »

Juliet wrote: October 26th, 2023, 5:34 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 5:32 pm Sounds good, but we can’t even agree on plural marriage and if it was a part of the restoration or not. 🙂

Denver Snuffer has attempted to preserve the restoration rather than restore the restoration.

Perhaps the davidic servant is needed to restore what needs to be restored that Joseph Smith didn’t get to do during his lifetime.
That is a great example of when the spirit of the law and the letter of the law don't always line up. But I think when you have people willing to figure it out, that is a step in the right direction. We can talk about the story of Abraham. If God told me to kill one of my children to prove my obedience, by default I would say that that cannot be the true and living God. A true God would not ask that of me, that is bad fruit. Same with polygamy. But then, trusting one's intuition messed up Eve.... so there is a time to trust it and a time not to trust it. Figuring out when to follow the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law seems to be the holy grail. It's like two parts of an X, and X marks the spot.
Yes, the Abraham and Isaac story is a difficult one for me. It helps me to think that Isaac was grown (not a child), and was willing to be sacrificed.
I would have to know for sure that it was God speaking to me before I could do that. For absolute sure.

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Seed Starter »

Leland41-2 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 5:14 pm Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restoration"

My idea is that there seem to be quite a few people on this forum dissatisfied with the current LDS church, and my personal question is whether there is a subgroup that would be willing to work on a project of carefully defining the original church, as begun by Christ, and then restored by Joseph Smith, and then either correcting the current badly mangled version of the original church (perhaps using a bit of creativity), or starting some separate operation?

Throughout the history of the world, the correct version of the gospel gets restored from time to time, and then within about 200 years, it is mangled beyond recognition again, just like clockwork. We have gone through that process again, and as we near the 200 year mark, we have a church as mangled as any of them. I am suggesting that through pure scholarship we can get very close to the truth, certainly closer than what we see today. I claim no personal special powers, certainly no prophetic powers, except that I have studied the problem to a ridiculous extent during the last 60 years of my 82 years of life. Rather than see the entire church and the entire nation be extinguished as we read about in Fourth Nephi, I would like to see some people make a heroic effort to fix the problem while we still can. I have written about seven books and have published five of them. That has been enough to get me started in the right direction, I hope. I can see some value in starting a completely new online forum for this project, but I'm not sure I have the energy or life years remaining to make it happen soon enough to matter.

Throughout the entire history of the earth, people have been redefining the gospel, sometimes making it better, but usually making it worse. Nonetheless, it seems like a useful project. Martin Luther made some major improvements, but we should have enough information today to do a much better job than even Martin Luther.
What books have you written? Do you mind sharing?

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Fred »

What is the matter with people that want to start a new church? If you didn't receive a visitation of angels , Jesus, or God himself, another church will be just another church. Since there are only 2 churches and a new one will not be Christ's Church unless Jesus specifically specifies that, and He already said that he would not. Maybe call it the church of the way LDSFFers think.

Besides, Emily is already starting one and she did say that God authorized hers.

It's one thing to wake up and realize that the Q15 worship pictures of Ben Franklin, but either people have the Priesthood or they don't. If they do, then it doesn't matter what the Q15 do or say. If they don't, then the LDS Church has already lost all spiritual significance, and Jesus will take care of it. Clean house as it were. Expose sin from the roof tops. Starting a new church does not help and is not Jesus' plan. Joseph Smith said this is the final restoration.

No new church will be Jesus' Church unless Jesus organizes it.

Leland41-2
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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Leland41-2 »

For Seed Starter:
What books have you written? Do you mind sharing?
At the location below you can read most of my stuff. It includes my five published books and some other papers. And I do have other papers that I have not listed there yet.
https://futuremormonism.blogspot.com/

-----------------------------
For Fred:
No new church will be Jesus' Church unless Jesus organizes it.
I can't really quibble with what you say, but I'm going to quibble anyway :-).

In my simpleminded view of things, good works are what count, and my main problem with the existing church is that they take great pains to NOT do good works – it's just too expensive, they say. They are actually suppressing good works that the members might accidentally and spontaneously do, not to mention basically wasting about $20 billion a year that could be used for some good purpose to improve our rotten society. My real hope is that a "parachurch" organization can start doing good works that will make it look like a real live Christian church. Who knows, maybe Christ will come and claim it, or send some other messenger. But, of course, I am not counting on that.

I see an analogy with the monastic orders that sprung up from the Catholic Church. I am guessing that they decided that the main church was so corrupt that there was nothing they could do to fix it, but they could do something good on their own. And then we had Martin Luther who started a whole new train of improved churches. That is the sort of thing I'm thinking of.

I see the current church as a negative effect on the world, and I would like to find a way to push something positive. It is possible that there are enough disenchanted church members, current and past, who might catch the spirit of Christian charity and do something really useful in the world. It might even keep our nation from disintegrating, which seems inevitable at the moment. Inaction doesn't seem like an option to me. I am too old to wait.

Of course, I'm retired, so I have time to think about these things, and maybe do something about them.

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Leland41-2 »

A little side topic:
As a lifelong computer guy, it seems to me that one could create a charity system which operates almost completely anonymously. That is, I believe it is technically possible that the only person who knows that anything happened is the recipient of the money, and even that could be done rather obscurely. Babies used to be left on doorsteps, and suitcases full of money or gold might arrive at the right spot just as anonymously. :-)

Strangely enough, doing secret works is part of the gospel, but for a rather different reason. Today, we might not want the church headquarters to know what's going on concerning secret good works, and we might not want any government to know what's going on, since both of those institutions could cause individuals a lot of grief. So suddenly we have different reasons to "not let the left hand know what the right hand is doing." Rather large amounts of money could be moved, and rather large amounts of good could be done. In this case, "dark money" could be a very good thing. Besides, who doesn't like a good spy tale?

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Juliet »

Fred wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:39 pm What is the matter with people that want to start a new church? If you didn't receive a visitation of angels , Jesus, or God himself, another church will be just another church. Since there are only 2 churches and a new one will not be Christ's Church unless Jesus specifically specifies that, and He already said that he would not. Maybe call it the church of the way LDSFFers think.

Besides, Emily is already starting one and she did say that God authorized hers.

It's one thing to wake up and realize that the Q15 worship pictures of Ben Franklin, but either people have the Priesthood or they don't. If they do, then it doesn't matter what the Q15 do or say. If they don't, then the LDS Church has already lost all spiritual significance, and Jesus will take care of it. Clean house as it were. Expose sin from the roof tops. Starting a new church does not help and is not Jesus' plan. Joseph Smith said this is the final restoration.

No new church will be Jesus' Church unless Jesus organizes it.
I don't really want to start a competing group, I don't think there is anything wrong with a complimentary group. I just want to continue to search for truth. Joseph Smith said we ought to seek out of the best books words of wisdom. The ninth article of faith says we believe there is more to be revealed. Jesus said where 2 or more or gathered in my name, there will I be also. Our church is a global church and is reaching out to other nations that have never heard of the concept of being able to know God for yourself. That's a great thing. It's great the global church is working on that. I also think it's important to seek the perfecting of the Saints. That is something that people who love and seek for truth can gather to accomplish. It's like being a chef and wanting to cook with truffles that are not found at the generic store. Just because you go to a specialized place to get truffles doesn't mean the grocery store is irrelevant. I know some people say that I am looking beyond the mark. But, let the cooking speak for itself!

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Juliet »

Leland41-2 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 10:37 pm A little side topic:
As a lifelong computer guy, it seems to me that one could create a charity system which operates almost completely anonymously. That is, I believe it is technically possible that the only person who knows that anything happened is the recipient of the money, and even that could be done rather obscurely. Babies used to be left on doorsteps, and suitcases full of money or gold might arrive at the right spot just as anonymously. :-)

Strangely enough, doing secret works is part of the gospel, but for a rather different reason. Today, we might not want the church headquarters to know what's going on concerning secret good works, and we might not want any government to know what's going on, since both of those institutions could cause individuals a lot of grief. So suddenly we have different reasons to "not let the left hand know what the right hand is doing." Rather large amounts of money could be moved, and rather large amounts of good could be done. In this case, "dark money" could be a very good thing. Besides, who doesn't like a good spy tale?
It would really be nice to have a system where people can network with privacy. Is such a thing possible? And creating a type of bartering app would be really helpful.

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Leland41-2 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 10:37 pm A little side topic:
As a lifelong computer guy, it seems to me that one could create a charity system which operates almost completely anonymously. That is, I believe it is technically possible that the only person who knows that anything happened is the recipient of the money, and even that could be done rather obscurely. Babies used to be left on doorsteps, and suitcases full of money or gold might arrive at the right spot just as anonymously. :-)

Strangely enough, doing secret works is part of the gospel, but for a rather different reason. Today, we might not want the church headquarters to know what's going on concerning secret good works, and we might not want any government to know what's going on, since both of those institutions could cause individuals a lot of grief. So suddenly we have different reasons to "not let the left hand know what the right hand is doing." Rather large amounts of money could be moved, and rather large amounts of good could be done. In this case, "dark money" could be a very good thing. Besides, who doesn't like a good spy tale?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlZYwZZaCGc

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Juliet »

Original_Intent wrote: October 26th, 2023, 5:18 pm I think we would need a correlation committee <duck>
In the Federalists papers, it talks about how important faction is. Faction protects people from tyranny, it also protects the minority. Almost anytime you have leadership of any sort, as Joseph Smith taught, they are tempted to misuse that authority. So, it is not the authority that makes something right, it is the powers of heaven that makes something right. What is beautiful is this doesn't need to be a top down structure. When someone speaks the truth as taught in D&C 50, both the teacher and the hearer recognize it and rejoice.Jesus did not need to be a member of the Jewish ruling class in order to speak the truth in a way that enlightened people and gave them understanding. He just needed to walk in the truth. And it says in Jeremiah 31 that in the Day of the Lord, it will be that way with everyone. Everyone will have the word of God written in their heart and they won't have to tell their neighbor what to believe.

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Robin Hood »

Leland41-2 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 5:14 pm Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restoration"

My idea is that there seem to be quite a few people on this forum dissatisfied with the current LDS church, and my personal question is whether there is a subgroup that would be willing to work on a project of carefully defining the original church, as begun by Christ, and then restored by Joseph Smith, and then either correcting the current badly mangled version of the original church (perhaps using a bit of creativity), or starting some separate operation?

Throughout the history of the world, the correct version of the gospel gets restored from time to time, and then within about 200 years, it is mangled beyond recognition again, just like clockwork. We have gone through that process again, and as we near the 200 year mark, we have a church as mangled as any of them. I am suggesting that through pure scholarship we can get very close to the truth, certainly closer than what we see today. I claim no personal special powers, certainly no prophetic powers, except that I have studied the problem to a ridiculous extent during the last 60 years of my 82 years of life. Rather than see the entire church and the entire nation be extinguished as we read about in Fourth Nephi, I would like to see some people make a heroic effort to fix the problem while we still can. I have written about seven books and have published five of them. That has been enough to get me started in the right direction, I hope. I can see some value in starting a completely new online forum for this project, but I'm not sure I have the energy or life years remaining to make it happen soon enough to matter.

Throughout the entire history of the earth, people have been redefining the gospel, sometimes making it better, but usually making it worse. Nonetheless, it seems like a useful project. Martin Luther made some major improvements, but we should have enough information today to do a much better job than even Martin Luther.
The main issue I see is that LDSFF has more opinions than members.

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Fred »

Leland41-2 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 10:11 pm For Seed Starter:
What books have you written? Do you mind sharing?
At the location below you can read most of my stuff. It includes my five published books and some other papers. And I do have other papers that I have not listed there yet.
https://futuremormonism.blogspot.com/

-----------------------------
For Fred:
No new church will be Jesus' Church unless Jesus organizes it.
I can't really quibble with what you say, but I'm going to quibble anyway :-).

In my simpleminded view of things, good works are what count, and my main problem with the existing church is that they take great pains to NOT do good works – it's just too expensive, they say. They are actually suppressing good works that the members might accidentally and spontaneously do, not to mention basically wasting about $20 billion a year that could be used for some good purpose to improve our rotten society. My real hope is that a "parachurch" organization can start doing good works that will make it look like a real live Christian church. Who knows, maybe Christ will come and claim it, or send some other messenger. But, of course, I am not counting on that.

I see an analogy with the monastic orders that sprung up from the Catholic Church. I am guessing that they decided that the main church was so corrupt that there was nothing they could do to fix it, but they could do something good on their own. And then we had Martin Luther who started a whole new train of improved churches. That is the sort of thing I'm thinking of.

I see the current church as a negative effect on the world, and I would like to find a way to push something positive. It is possible that there are enough disenchanted church members, current and past, who might catch the spirit of Christian charity and do something really useful in the world. It might even keep our nation from disintegrating, which seems inevitable at the moment. Inaction doesn't seem like an option to me. I am too old to wait.

Of course, I'm retired, so I have time to think about these things, and maybe do something about them.
The current church is evil. Hard to say just how evil, but it is a fact that they have partnered with satan at near every opportunity. I haven't been to church in years. I run across satan from time to time often enough without having to go to a place where I know that he is clearly in charge.

I gave my daughter a blessing after doctors said she would die and the Elders refused to administer to her as they were ordered to stay away from H1N1. Whether this was Priesthood power or faith, I can not say, although I did not have a high expectation that she would actually be healed. Perhaps, sometimes one only need ask and a loving parent provides. She was nine and now she is 23 so something worked.

Whether the Q15 commit SRA, fraud, tell lies, worship satan, have their hearts set on wealth, changes nothing. They could be the most evil pricks that ever lived. Doesn't change the fact that I followed the instructions in the pamphlet and my prayer was answered.

I don't attend church. Don't plan to. I'm not going to start or join another one. If Jesus comes by, I could change my mind.

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Leland41-2 »

I don't attend church. Don't plan to. I'm not going to start or join another one. If Jesus comes by, I could change my mind.
I will have to give myself a challenge to write a "12 step recovery program" to drag loners like you back into some kind of religion-related social activity. :-) There might be some "threading the needle" kind of problem resolutions.

You have some wise things to say. I even have a document where I copied two of your responses about Zion and revelation. :-)

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Baurak Ale »

Leland41-2 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 5:14 pm Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restoration"

My idea is that there seem to be quite a few people on this forum dissatisfied with the current LDS church, and my personal question is whether there is a subgroup that would be willing to work on a project of carefully defining the original church, as begun by Christ, and then restored by Joseph Smith, and then either correcting the current badly mangled version of the original church (perhaps using a bit of creativity), or starting some separate operation?

Throughout the history of the world, the correct version of the gospel gets restored from time to time, and then within about 200 years, it is mangled beyond recognition again, just like clockwork. We have gone through that process again, and as we near the 200 year mark, we have a church as mangled as any of them. I am suggesting that through pure scholarship we can get very close to the truth, certainly closer than what we see today. I claim no personal special powers, certainly no prophetic powers, except that I have studied the problem to a ridiculous extent during the last 60 years of my 82 years of life. Rather than see the entire church and the entire nation be extinguished as we read about in Fourth Nephi, I would like to see some people make a heroic effort to fix the problem while we still can. I have written about seven books and have published five of them. That has been enough to get me started in the right direction, I hope. I can see some value in starting a completely new online forum for this project, but I'm not sure I have the energy or life years remaining to make it happen soon enough to matter.

Throughout the entire history of the earth, people have been redefining the gospel, sometimes making it better, but usually making it worse. Nonetheless, it seems like a useful project. Martin Luther made some major improvements, but we should have enough information today to do a much better job than even Martin Luther.
A relevant quote to consider:

"Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense than to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it? The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began." (Joseph Smith, STPJS 375).

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by Leland41-2 »

If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it?
Here is my "impossible dream." In 1883 Parley P. Pratt published his book entitled "Key to the Science of Theology."
https://ia800903.us.archive.org/7/items ... eology.pdf

Somebody needs to finish the job he started.

One might hope that when God specified how people should live, as contained in his Gospel, he would make it simple enough for everyone to understand it. In my 82 years, I have probably spent about the equivalent of 30 working years trying to become a theologian. That would be about 60,000 hours. If humans lived to be 900 years of age, then 30 years seems like a reasonable investment to become masters of their own theological fate. If we only have 80 years to live, then that 30 years takes out a rather large chunk. The question is whether a large number of people can learn to be competent theologians in a shorter time so that we cannot be tricked by the next religious charlatan that comes along.

If the gospel were not simply viewed as a checklist of things to do, a law of Moses format, but a carefully integrated logical structure, accounting for human psychology and human sociology, then when someone wanted to change the logic for their own personal benefit, the change would stick out like a sore thumb and people could challenge it. The problem today is that we don't have hardly anyone who can begin to compete in that logical process. Apparently, we just naïvely accept whatever we are told. Until that changes, we are "sitting ducks."

Do we have any people who are so determined to find out the truth that they will struggle mightily to understand it?

One of my goals is to create a course of study for theologians. But whether I have the time and wit to create that course remains to be seen. In one sense, we have been given so much information that we shouldn't have to wait for a heavenly messenger to figure out what's going on. It would be a lot better for our world if there were lots of people who simply understood the real principles of the gospel, and applied them, even if they didn't have daily heavenly visitations.

The gospel has been misused to control and exploit people almost since the beginning of time. Studying those principles of exploitation ought to be worth something in maintaining a proper direction.

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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by creator »

Leland41-2 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 5:14 pm Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restoration"

My idea is that there seem to be quite a few people on this forum dissatisfied with the current LDS church, and my personal question is whether there is a subgroup that would be willing to work on a project of carefully defining the original church, as begun by Christ, and then restored by Joseph Smith, and then either correcting the current badly mangled version of the original church (perhaps using a bit of creativity), or starting some separate operation?....
I believe in the principle of the Remnant, (no, not any specific group that might call themselves the Remnant) that there will always be a small remnant of true and faithful believers in Christ, despite widespread apostasy among mainstream Christianity, but I think the time for building a new Church is past. No earthly legally established organization is necessary to be part of the Remnant, or church of the Firstborn.

Those who are leaving their Church organization, or dissatisfied with the one they remain active in, should seek to further develop their relationship to the Christ.

We should seek unity in Christ (and those principles that he represents).

You're welcome to discuss the things you mentioned in these sub-forums: Gospel Discussions, Heretic Sub-Forum, or Private Discussion.

BOMdotcom
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Re: Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restorati

Post by BOMdotcom »

Leland41-2 wrote: October 26th, 2023, 5:14 pm Would you consider adding a new sub-forum to LDSFF? – Suggested title: "Original Church" or "Restoring the Restoration"

My idea is that there seem to be quite a few people on this forum dissatisfied with the current LDS church, and my personal question is whether there is a subgroup that would be willing to work on a project of carefully defining the original church, as begun by Christ, and then restored by Joseph Smith, and then either correcting the current badly mangled version of the original church (perhaps using a bit of creativity), or starting some separate operation?

Throughout the history of the world, the correct version of the gospel gets restored from time to time, and then within about 200 years, it is mangled beyond recognition again, just like clockwork. We have gone through that process again, and as we near the 200 year mark, we have a church as mangled as any of them. I am suggesting that through pure scholarship we can get very close to the truth, certainly closer than what we see today. I claim no personal special powers, certainly no prophetic powers, except that I have studied the problem to a ridiculous extent during the last 60 years of my 82 years of life. Rather than see the entire church and the entire nation be extinguished as we read about in Fourth Nephi, I would like to see some people make a heroic effort to fix the problem while we still can. I have written about seven books and have published five of them. That has been enough to get me started in the right direction, I hope. I can see some value in starting a completely new online forum for this project, but I'm not sure I have the energy or life years remaining to make it happen soon enough to matter.

Throughout the entire history of the earth, people have been redefining the gospel, sometimes making it better, but usually making it worse. Nonetheless, it seems like a useful project. Martin Luther made some major improvements, but we should have enough information today to do a much better job than even Martin Luther.
I think it would be really cool to have at least on paper what the original organization was structured like. I’ve found a few things of interest to me that were different about the 1830-1840s church;

1. Stake high councils were equal in authority to the Q12, essentially being to their stakes what the Q15 are to the entire church today. There was a lot of autonomy in a stake and they even defied the FP on occasion to do what was best for their constituents.

2. The office of Teacher were the guys who TAUGHT their congregations… like pastors or preachers. The elders brought people into the church and the teachers taught them. Sidney Rigdon used the analogy of the elders being stone cutters and the teachers being polishers of the stones, or something like that.

3. The FP were supposed to be the first ones in the building for a conference so they could greet everyone walking in and help them find their seats.

4. The FP were chosen not from the Q12, and were completely separate from them.

5. The Q12 were traveling elders that preached the gospel to nonmembers and had no authority anywhere there existed a stake.

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