LDS Freedom Forum

I just came across this website in which Craig Criddle makes the case that Sidney Rigdon was the main character behind the Book of Mormon. He makes a compelling case that Rigdon cooperated with Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to create the Book of Mormon. I am not sure what to make of it. A lot of this seems to have occurred in my neck of the woods here in Ohio.

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1.htm

Criddle’s summary of his very long essay:

“Historical Evidence Connecting Rigdon to Spalding and to
the Fabrication of The Book of Mormon.

1. Rigdon shared a post office with Solomon Spalding and evidently frequented a print shop where Spalding had left a manuscript entitled Manuscript Found. For a time, the manuscript disappeared. Spalding reportedly suspected Rigdon had taken it.

2. John Winter reported that Rigdon kept a copy of a Spalding manuscript in his study. At about the same time, Rigdon was evidently involved in the publication of pro-Campbellite pseudo-scripture.

3. Witnesses familiar with Spalding's Manuscript Found testified that it was similar to The Book of Mormon but lacked the religious content.

4. Rigdon and Spalding were independently named as authors before anyone was aware of a connection between them.

5. In 1839, Rigdon wrote a letter denying his role in the composition of The Book of Mormon. His letter contained demonstrable falsehoods.

6. In 1888, Walter Sidney Rigdon -- Sidney Rigdon's grandson -- said that his grandfather's role in fabrication of The Book of Mormon was a family secret.

7. Reports that in Bainbridge, Ohio, Sidney Rigdon engaged in séance-like sessions with others in adjacent places to produce the Book of Mormon.

Textual and Theological Evidence
implicating Rigdon

8. The theology of Alexander Campbell, Rigdon's mentor, is sprinkled throughout The Book of Mormon.

9. On those issues where Rigdon and Campbell disagreed prior to 1830, The Book of Mormon strongly endorses Rigdon's views.

10. Sections of The Book of Mormon likely added after loss of the first 116 pages in June 1828 describe spiritual rebirth after baptism, consistent with Rigdon's changed beliefs after meeting with Walter Scott in March 1828.

11. The phrase "children of men" appears with exceptionally high frequency in those parts of The Book of Mormon that contain theological content reflecting Rigdon's pre-1830 views.

12. Rigdon is known to have worked with Smith to produce The Book of Moses. The phrase "children of men" appears with high frequency in those parts of The Book of Moses that contain theological content reflecting Rigdon's pre-1830 views.

13. Word text analysis implicating Rigdon (Jockers et al., 2008)


Historical Evidence
connecting Rigdon to Smith before 1830

14. Prior to 1830, Rigdon reportedly made several statements in which he indicated his foreknowledge of The Book of Mormon and the impending rise of a new religion.

15. At a Reformed Baptist convention in Aug 1830, Rigdon spoke of a fuller revelation about to come forth and the need for a complete restoration of the gospel.

16. Rigdon denied meeting Smith before 1830, but several people reported seeing him at or near the Smith's prior to that date and Rigdon's calendar contains gaps at critical time periods when he would have had time to visit Smith.

17. In 1868 Rigdon wrote a letter in which he claimed to know the contents of the sealed portion of The Book of Mormon.

18. James Jeffery, a friend of Rigdon's, testified that in 1844 he heard Rigdon say that Smith used a Spalding manuscript to fabricate The Book of Mormon.

Historical Evidence
for a long-term relationship between Rigdon and Smith

19. Almost immediately after his baptism, Rigdon acted as though he was in charge of the church. As soon as he officially met Smith, they began work on The Book of Moses, a scripture that endorses Rigdon's 1828 "discovery" of spiritual rebirth after baptism.

20. In March of 1828, the "Revelator" of The Book of Commandments and The Book of Mormon attempted to limit Smith's role to translation only.

21. In 1863 Rigdon said that Smith was supposed to be the Translator and Rigdon the Gatherer of Israel.

22. Rigdon and Smith engaged in a see-saw power struggle that can be understood considering their vulnerabilities and co-dependency.

23. Rigdon and Smith collaborated on joint revelations recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants. They collaborated in changing revelations after the fact. They collaborated on illegal financial transactions.

24. In 1844 Sidney Rigdon seized upon the opportunity of Smith's death, instigating a cynical power grab, threatening to "expose the secrets of the church" and professing new revelations and visions.”

Christianlee wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 7:48 am I just came across this website in which Craig Criddle makes the case that Sidney Rigdon was the main character behind the Book of Mormon. He makes a compelling case that Rigdon cooperated with Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to create the Book of Mormon. I am not sure what to make of it. A lot of this seems to have occurred in my neck of the woods here in Ohio.

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1.htm

Criddle’s summary of his very long essay:

“Historical Evidence Connecting Rigdon to Spalding and to
the Fabrication of The Book of Mormon.

1. Rigdon shared a post office with Solomon Spalding and evidently frequented a print shop where Spalding had left a manuscript entitled Manuscript Found. For a time, the manuscript disappeared. Spalding reportedly suspected Rigdon had taken it.

2. John Winter reported that Rigdon kept a copy of a Spalding manuscript in his study. At about the same time, Rigdon was evidently involved in the publication of pro-Campbellite pseudo-scripture.

3. Witnesses familiar with Spalding's Manuscript Found testified that it was similar to The Book of Mormon but lacked the religious content.

4. Rigdon and Spalding were independently named as authors before anyone was aware of a connection between them.

5. In 1839, Rigdon wrote a letter denying his role in the composition of The Book of Mormon. His letter contained demonstrable falsehoods.

6. In 1888, Walter Sidney Rigdon -- Sidney Rigdon's grandson -- said that his grandfather's role in fabrication of The Book of Mormon was a family secret.

7. Reports that in Bainbridge, Ohio, Sidney Rigdon engaged in séance-like sessions with others in adjacent places to produce the Book of Mormon.

Textual and Theological Evidence
implicating Rigdon

8. The theology of Alexander Campbell, Rigdon's mentor, is sprinkled throughout The Book of Mormon.

9. On those issues where Rigdon and Campbell disagreed prior to 1830, The Book of Mormon strongly endorses Rigdon's views.

10. Sections of The Book of Mormon likely added after loss of the first 116 pages in June 1828 describe spiritual rebirth after baptism, consistent with Rigdon's changed beliefs after meeting with Walter Scott in March 1828.

11. The phrase "children of men" appears with exceptionally high frequency in those parts of The Book of Mormon that contain theological content reflecting Rigdon's pre-1830 views.

12. Rigdon is known to have worked with Smith to produce The Book of Moses. The phrase "children of men" appears with high frequency in those parts of The Book of Moses that contain theological content reflecting Rigdon's pre-1830 views.

13. Word text analysis implicating Rigdon (Jockers et al., 2008)


Historical Evidence
connecting Rigdon to Smith before 1830

14. Prior to 1830, Rigdon reportedly made several statements in which he indicated his foreknowledge of The Book of Mormon and the impending rise of a new religion.

15. At a Reformed Baptist convention in Aug 1830, Rigdon spoke of a fuller revelation about to come forth and the need for a complete restoration of the gospel.

16. Rigdon denied meeting Smith before 1830, but several people reported seeing him at or near the Smith's prior to that date and Rigdon's calendar contains gaps at critical time periods when he would have had time to visit Smith.

17. In 1868 Rigdon wrote a letter in which he claimed to know the contents of the sealed portion of The Book of Mormon.

18. James Jeffery, a friend of Rigdon's, testified that in 1844 he heard Rigdon say that Smith used a Spalding manuscript to fabricate The Book of Mormon.

Historical Evidence
for a long-term relationship between Rigdon and Smith

19. Almost immediately after his baptism, Rigdon acted as though he was in charge of the church. As soon as he officially met Smith, they began work on The Book of Moses, a scripture that endorses Rigdon's 1828 "discovery" of spiritual rebirth after baptism.

20. In March of 1828, the "Revelator" of The Book of Commandments and The Book of Mormon attempted to limit Smith's role to translation only.

21. In 1863 Rigdon said that Smith was supposed to be the Translator and Rigdon the Gatherer of Israel.

22. Rigdon and Smith engaged in a see-saw power struggle that can be understood considering their vulnerabilities and co-dependency.

23. Rigdon and Smith collaborated on joint revelations recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants. They collaborated in changing revelations after the fact. They collaborated on illegal financial transactions.

24. In 1844 Sidney Rigdon seized upon the opportunity of Smith's death, instigating a cynical power grab, threatening to "expose the secrets of the church" and professing new revelations and visions.”

Really?
Even Fawn Brodie, all those years ago, dismissed this Rigdon/Spaulding thing as an absolute non-starter.

There is a lot of holes with this theory. We don't have any evidence Rigdon met Smith prior to the publishing of the Book of Mormon. Your bullets mention people saying it, but there is no substantial backing to any of that.

Some of Rigdon's dying words were

My son, I can swear before high heaven that what I have told you about the origin of [the Book of Mormon] is true. Your mother and sister, Mrs. Athalia Robinson, were present when that book was handed to me in Mentor, Ohio, and all I ever knew about the origin of [the Book of Mormon] was what Parley P. Pratt, Oliver Cowdery, Joseph Smith and the witnesses who claimed they saw the plates have told me, and in all of my intimacy with Joseph Smith he never told me but one story.

This theory may have held water in early years, but with more historical evidence it doesn't. There is no good non-godly explanation for the Book of Mormon at this point.

How does that compare with what Michael Sherwin revealed.

Sidney swore near the end of his life that he never met smith prior to 1830 which contradicts his grandson who testified that it was common understanding in the extended rigdon family that Sidney helped Joseph create the Book of Mormon between 1827 and 1830.

It’s also worth noting that after Nancy rigdon, Sydney’s daughter, rebuffed Joseph smith’s polygamous proposal, that he later overlooked the incident despite Joseph claiming Nancy was akin to a nauvoo prostitute in order to blame her for any promiscuous allegations. Sydney sort of threw Nancy under the bus or at least minimized the incident in order to maintain his position in the first presidency. He was all in with Joseph and the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

Sidney’s claims to being a religious and history scholar rest on the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Otherwise his life’s work in religion would be considered fraudulent. His grandson lauded him as the finest historian and Bible scholar in the region. Sydney had a huge personal reputational bias to claim the Book of Mormon as authentic. His grandson had no bias that can be pointed to.

I appreciate the information! I hadn't heard this theory before and while there are several fairly interesting connections I don't see anything that would lead me to believe that SR created the BoM. It looks to me like he may have been around for more of the time than we had previously thought and probably had an influence on Joseph's translation/creation of the BoM but I am not seeing the link to it being SRs creation or what am I missing?

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 8:20 am Really?
Even Fawn Brodie, all those years ago, dismissed this Rigdon/Spaulding thing as an absolute non-starter.

Yeah, and still to this day, RFM and Bill Reel immediately dismiss the thought. There's not a single academic today who thinks this.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 12:34 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 8:20 am Really?
Even Fawn Brodie, all those years ago, dismissed this Rigdon/Spaulding thing as an absolute non-starter.

Yeah, and still to this day, RFM and Bill Reel immediately dismiss the thought. There's not a single academic today who thinks this.

Good to know. Do you have direct quotes from fawn Brodie or any other historian who has studied this issue?

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 12:40 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 12:34 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 8:20 am Really?
Even Fawn Brodie, all those years ago, dismissed this Rigdon/Spaulding thing as an absolute non-starter.

Yeah, and still to this day, RFM and Bill Reel immediately dismiss the thought. There's not a single academic today who thinks this.

Good to know. Do you have direct quotes from fawn Brodie or any other historian who has studied this issue?

No, just going from memory.

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 12:34 pm I appreciate the information! I hadn't heard this theory before and while there are several fairly interesting connections I don't see anything that would lead me to believe that SR created the BoM. It looks to me like he may have been around for more of the time than we had previously thought and probably had an influence on Joseph's translation/creation of the BoM but I am not seeing the link to it being SRs creation or what am I missing?

Will find one public thread for non-members: viewtopic.php?p=1005306&hilit=Sidney+Rigdon#p1005306

Will find posts in OD too: search.php?keywords=Sidney+Rigdon&terms ... el+Sherwin

I don't have time to go into details right now (especially not on a phone--- I'm terrible at typing on these!), but when B.H. Roberts destroyed the Spaulding theories, a large part of this included destroying theories placing Rigdon as the genius behind the BoM. His treatment of this was so thorough, the magazine he sent his review to asked him to write a monthly history of the Church. When he told them they didn't understand what a large undertaking they had in mind, the magazine changed to a monthly and dedicated 50 pages a month for years. This is what became Comprehensive History of the Church (founding until 1930).

His dismantling of Spaulding theory 1, "Manuscript Found," and the Pratt / Rigdon theory is a work of art. This is why critics have been so desperate to paint his BoM studies as representing his loss of faith. They are desperate to come up with some non-Joseph Smith source for the BoM.

I have posted this info. before and I will be posting it again I am sure. I don't mind, it is really awesome information as well. Rigdon was from Mentor Ohio. He never met the Prophet Joseph until after the first printing of the Book of Mormon. In addition, here is more information. The remarkable experience of Elisa Rigdon, Sydney Rigdon’s daughter. Elisa Rigdon had just passed away:

The doctor told him that she was gone; when, after a considerable length of time, she rose up in the bed and spoke in a very powerful tone to the following effect, in a supernatural manner: She said to the family that she was going to leave them (being impressed with the idea herself that she had only come back to deliver her message, and then depart again), saying the Lord had said to her the very words she should relate; and so particular was she in her relation, that she would not suffer any person to leave out a word or add one. She called the family around her, and bade them all farewell, still impressed with the idea that she was to go back.

Up to the time of her death, she expressed a great unwillingness to die; but, after her return, she expressed equally as strong a desire to go back. She said to her elder sister, Nancy, “It is in your heart to deny this work; and if you do, the Lord says it will be the damnation of your soul.” In speaking to her sister Sarah, she said, “Sarah, we have but once to die, and I would rather die now, than wait for another time.” She said to her sisters that the Lord had great blessings in store for them, if they continued in the faith; and after delivering her message, she swooned, but recovered again.

During this time, she was as cold as she will be when laid in the grave, and all the appearance of life was the power of speech. She thus continued till the following evening, for the space of thirty-six hours, when she called her father unto her bed, and said to him that the Lord had said to her, if he would cease weeping for his sick daughter, and dry up his tears, that he should have all the desires of his heart; and that if he would go to bed and rest, he should be comforted over his sick daughter, for in the morning she should be getting better, and should get well: that the Lord had said unto her, because that her father had dedicated her to God, and prayed to Him for her, that He would restore her back to him again.

This ceremony of dedicating and praying took place when she was struggling in death, and continued to the very moment of her departure; and she says the Lord told her that it was because of this that she must go back to her father again, though she herself desired to stay.

She said concerning George W. Robinson, as he had denied the faith, the Lord had taken away one of his eye-teeth, and unless he repented he would take away another; and concerning Dr. Bennett that he was a wicked man and that the Lord would tread him under his feet. Such is a small portion of what she related.33https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/arc ... istory#en6

In 1865, more than two decades after Sidney’s excommunication, John Wycliff Rigdon, who, as a young adolescent, had followed his parents out of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, interviewed his father about the Book of Mormon.

"I concluded,” he later wrote, “I would make an investigation for my own satisfaction and find out, if I could, if he had all these years been deceiving his family and the world, by telling that which was not true, and I was in earnest about it. If Sidney Rigdon, my father, had thrown his life away by telling a falsehood and bringing sorrow and disgrace upon his family, I wanted to know it and was determined to find out the facts, no matter what the consequences might be.”

In his mid-30s by this time, John hadn’t seen his father for a considerable while. Among other things, though, he’d visited the Mormon settlements in Utah, which, he said, “had not impressed me very favorably toward the Mormon church, and as to the origin of the Book of Mormon I had some doubts.” So he came right to the point:

“You have been charged,” he said, “with writing that book and giving it to Joseph Smith to introduce to the world (kirtland r,m, comment, an assertion began by an excommunicated former member Philastus Hurlbut). You have always told me one story; that you never saw the book until it was presented to you by Parley P. Pratt and Oliver Cowdery; and all you ever knew of the origin of that book was what they told you and what Joseph Smith and the witnesses who claimed to have seen the plates had told you. Is this true? If so, all right; if it is not, you owe it to me and to your family to tell it. You are an old man and you will soon pass away, and I wish to know if Joseph Smith, in your intimacy with him for 14 years, has not said something to you that led you to believe he obtained that book in some other way than what he had told you. Give me all you know about it, that I may know the truth.”

His father, he recorded, raised his hand above his head and slowly said, with tears running down his cheeks, “My son, I can swear before high heaven that what I have told you about the origin of that book is true. Your mother and sister … were present when that book was handed to me in Mentor, Ohio, and all I ever knew about the origin of that book was what Parley P. Pratt, Oliver Cowdery, Joseph Smith and the witnesses who claimed they saw the plates have told me, and in all of my intimacy with Joseph Smith he never told me but one story, and that was that he found it engraved upon gold plates in a hill near Palmyra, New York. … I believed him, and now believe he told me the truth.”

Afterward, John recalled, his father also declared “that Mormonism was true; that Joseph Smith was a Prophet, and this world would find it out some day.” And, years later, just before her own death, John’s mother confirmed Sidney’s account, “for she was present at the time and knew that was the first time he ever saw it, and that the stories told about my father writing the Book of Mormon were not true."

Impelled by those conversations, John ultimately moved to Utah and joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. At his death in 1912, he was buried in Salt Lake City.https://www.deseret.com/2015/9/24/20572 ... -of-mormon

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 3:27 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 12:34 pm I appreciate the information! I hadn't heard this theory before and while there are several fairly interesting connections I don't see anything that would lead me to believe that SR created the BoM. It looks to me like he may have been around for more of the time than we had previously thought and probably had an influence on Joseph's translation/creation of the BoM but I am not seeing the link to it being SRs creation or what am I missing?

Will find one public thread for non-members: viewtopic.php?p=1005306&hilit=Sidney+Rigdon#p1005306

Will find posts in OD too: search.php?keywords=Sidney+Rigdon&terms ... el+Sherwin

Thank you! I would much rather dig into this in bed tonight than scroll th absurdities of facebook.lol

Christianlee wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 7:48 am I just came across this website in which Craig Criddle makes the case that Sidney Rigdon was the main character behind the Book of Mormon. He makes a compelling case that Rigdon cooperated with Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to create the Book of Mormon. I am not sure what to make of it. A lot of this seems to have occurred in my neck of the woods here in Ohio.

http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1.htm

Criddle’s summary of his very long essay:

“Historical Evidence Connecting Rigdon to Spalding and to
the Fabrication of The Book of Mormon.

1. Rigdon shared a post office with Solomon Spalding and evidently frequented a print shop where Spalding had left a manuscript entitled Manuscript Found. For a time, the manuscript disappeared. Spalding reportedly suspected Rigdon had taken it.

2. John Winter reported that Rigdon kept a copy of a Spalding manuscript in his study. At about the same time, Rigdon was evidently involved in the publication of pro-Campbellite pseudo-scripture.

3. Witnesses familiar with Spalding's Manuscript Found testified that it was similar to The Book of Mormon but lacked the religious content.

4. Rigdon and Spalding were independently named as authors before anyone was aware of a connection between them.

5. In 1839, Rigdon wrote a letter denying his role in the composition of The Book of Mormon. His letter contained demonstrable falsehoods.

6. In 1888, Walter Sidney Rigdon -- Sidney Rigdon's grandson -- said that his grandfather's role in fabrication of The Book of Mormon was a family secret.

7. Reports that in Bainbridge, Ohio, Sidney Rigdon engaged in séance-like sessions with others in adjacent places to produce the Book of Mormon.

Textual and Theological Evidence
implicating Rigdon

8. The theology of Alexander Campbell, Rigdon's mentor, is sprinkled throughout The Book of Mormon.

9. On those issues where Rigdon and Campbell disagreed prior to 1830, The Book of Mormon strongly endorses Rigdon's views.

10. Sections of The Book of Mormon likely added after loss of the first 116 pages in June 1828 describe spiritual rebirth after baptism, consistent with Rigdon's changed beliefs after meeting with Walter Scott in March 1828.

11. The phrase "children of men" appears with exceptionally high frequency in those parts of The Book of Mormon that contain theological content reflecting Rigdon's pre-1830 views.

12. Rigdon is known to have worked with Smith to produce The Book of Moses. The phrase "children of men" appears with high frequency in those parts of The Book of Moses that contain theological content reflecting Rigdon's pre-1830 views.

13. Word text analysis implicating Rigdon (Jockers et al., 2008)


Historical Evidence
connecting Rigdon to Smith before 1830

14. Prior to 1830, Rigdon reportedly made several statements in which he indicated his foreknowledge of The Book of Mormon and the impending rise of a new religion.

15. At a Reformed Baptist convention in Aug 1830, Rigdon spoke of a fuller revelation about to come forth and the need for a complete restoration of the gospel.

16. Rigdon denied meeting Smith before 1830, but several people reported seeing him at or near the Smith's prior to that date and Rigdon's calendar contains gaps at critical time periods when he would have had time to visit Smith.

17. In 1868 Rigdon wrote a letter in which he claimed to know the contents of the sealed portion of The Book of Mormon.

18. James Jeffery, a friend of Rigdon's, testified that in 1844 he heard Rigdon say that Smith used a Spalding manuscript to fabricate The Book of Mormon.

Historical Evidence
for a long-term relationship between Rigdon and Smith

19. Almost immediately after his baptism, Rigdon acted as though he was in charge of the church. As soon as he officially met Smith, they began work on The Book of Moses, a scripture that endorses Rigdon's 1828 "discovery" of spiritual rebirth after baptism.

20. In March of 1828, the "Revelator" of The Book of Commandments and The Book of Mormon attempted to limit Smith's role to translation only.

21. In 1863 Rigdon said that Smith was supposed to be the Translator and Rigdon the Gatherer of Israel.

22. Rigdon and Smith engaged in a see-saw power struggle that can be understood considering their vulnerabilities and co-dependency.

23. Rigdon and Smith collaborated on joint revelations recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants. They collaborated in changing revelations after the fact. They collaborated on illegal financial transactions.

24. In 1844 Sidney Rigdon seized upon the opportunity of Smith's death, instigating a cynical power grab, threatening to "expose the secrets of the church" and professing new revelations and visions.”

I’ve spent quite a bit of time on several of these points included in this summary and continued to pull on them and found that the thread just kept coming and coming and there were more and more connections that supported this general idea. Don’t neglect to take a hard look at Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris as well.

The more I learn about the time period, settings and actual historical context surrounding the publishing of the BofM the more my brow raises.

Once seen, can’t be unseen

I thought the Spaulding manuscript and the Book of Mormon were not even that similar.

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 9:39 pm I thought the Spaulding manuscript and the Book of Mormon were not even that similar.

A manuscript of Spaulding’s was found among his daughter’s belongings (IIRC) and, when it was discovered to be nothing like the BofM, the RLDS and LDS churches were quick to declare it the manuscript everyone had been describing as having been used to create the BofM even though the University which held it in collection released a statement saying that there was nothing to identify it as such. Spaulding had been a minister and a prolific author.

This is the basis for which LDS apologists declare the matter closed…debunked…destroyed. Most believers are satisfied with that and won’t look under the proverbial rug.

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 9:48 pm

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 9:39 pm I thought the Spaulding manuscript and the Book of Mormon were not even that similar.

A manuscript of Spaulding’s was found among his daughter’s belongings (IIRC) and, when it was discovered to be nothing like the BofM, the RLDS and LDS churches were quick to declare it the manuscript everyone had been describing as having been used to create the BofM even though the University which held it in collection released a statement saying that there was nothing to identify it as such. Spaulding had been a minister and a prolific author.

This is the basis for which LDS apologists declare the matter closed…debunked…destroyed. Most believers are satisfied with that and won’t look under the proverbial rug.

So there’s no other manuscript out there?

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 9:48 pm
A manuscript of Spaulding’s was found among his daughter’s belongings (IIRC) and, when it was discovered to be nothing like the BofM, the RLDS and LDS churches were quick to declare it the manuscript everyone had been describing as having been used to create the BofM even though the University which held it in collection released a statement saying that there was nothing to identify it as such. Spaulding had been a minister and a prolific author.

This is the basis for which LDS apologists declare the matter closed…debunked…destroyed. Most believers are satisfied with that and won’t look under the proverbial rug.

B.H. Roberts went much further than that, because the claim (especially in the sophisticated Theodore Schroeder paper he responded to) then became that "Manuscript Found" was just the rough draft for his later work that had names like "Nephi" and "Mormon" and "Moroni" in it. It was this later, sophisticated claim that Roberts convincingly obliterated, not just the manuscript now at Oberlin. Part of this sophisticated claim was that Parley P. Pratt and Sidney Rigdon had extensive contact with Joseph Smith before the Church narrative says they had met.

I included the following in a handout of supplemental material for a stake/community fireside we did years ago ("Book of Mormon: Fact, or Fiction?"). It was a lengthy handout (large packet) with supplemental items not covered by the presentation (or only lightly covered), like DNA evidence. Sorry about the formatting ---- it didn't copy over well from a Word document. The Q&A stretched until late at night.

I find Spaulding's sexual innuendo in a story written in the Western Reserve in the early 1800s to be interesting.

---

Case Study in Making up Names: The Spaulding Manuscript vs. the Book of Mormon

The names of places and people in the Book of Mormon compare very favorably to what critics used to rely upon as the explanation for its origins: Solomon Spaulding’s “Manuscript Story.” Spaulding wrote a manuscript of a novel dealing with Romans blown off course who landed in North America, and anti-Mormon E.D. Howe bought it from Spaulding’s widow in the hopes that it could be used to discredit the Book of Mormon. When he discovered that it would not serve this purpose, he kept it carefully hidden but continued to spread the rumor that the source of the Book of the Book of Mormon had been found. In 1881, an Ohio printer named L. L. Rice bought Howe’s items (which had been shipped to Hawaii), hoping to find historical material dealing with abolition and slavery. “Manuscript Story” was among his papers, signed on the back and certified by the anti-Mormon committee that had been dispatched to buy it. Rice gave it to James Fairchild, president of Oberlin College, and the Spaulding manuscript now resides there on display.

Of the Spaulding manuscript, Rice said: "Two things are true concerning this manuscript . . . First, it is a genuine writing of Solomon Spaulding, and second, it is not the original of the Book of Mormon . . . It is unlikely that anyone who wrote so elaborate a work as the Mormon Bible [Book of Mormon] would spend his time in getting up so shallow a story as this." President Fairchild noted: "Mr. Rice, myself and others compared it [the Spaulding manuscript] with the Book of Mormon, and could detect no resemblance between the two in general or in detail. There seems to be no name or incident common to the two . . . Some other explanation of the origin of the Book of Mormon must be found . . . I should as soon think the Book of Revelation was written by the author of Don Quixote, as that the writer of this manuscript was the author of the Book of Mormon."

For decades after this, anti-Mormons claimed that the Oberlin manuscript was not the Spaulding story Joseph Smith had used in writing the Book of Mormon, and that he had written a second, longer one with names like Moroni and Nephi. A Wisconsin attorney named Theodore Schroeder moved to Salt Lake City near the turn of the century for the specific purpose of combating Mormonism, and he published a sophisticated and effective series of articles in the American Historical Magazine arguing in favor of this “second lost Spaulding manuscript” theory. Elder B. H. Roberts of the LDS Church wrote a lengthy rebuttal, also published in the American Historical Magazine, that obliterated the Spaulding theories and essentially ended their popularity with critics of Mormonism (except for some few who persist in advocating them, being unwilling to admit any possibility that Joseph Smith was capable of playing any part in the production of the Book of Mormon. The “lost” manuscript theories rely on major roles of people like Sidney Rigdon and Parley P. Pratt before they met Joseph Smith).

It is interesting to compare the names and words found in the Spaulding Manuscript with the vocabulary of the Book of Mormon. None of the above ancient parallels and “bulls-eyes” in the Book of Mormon can be claimed for Spaulding’s story, and the nature of Spaulding’s anachronisms help to place the ones critics focus on in the Book of Mormon in perspective.

A sampling of Spaulding’s prose

“. . . Methinks I could pick out a healthy plum Lass from the copper coloured tribe that by washing and scrubbing her fore & aft & upon the labbord & stabbord sides she would become a wholesome bedfellow.”

“We retired two & two hand in hand — Ladies heads little awri — blushing like the morn & — But I forgot to mention that our society passed a resolution to build a church in the midst of our village.”

“Delawan to chakee poloo
Manegango farwah teloo
Chanepauh lawango chapah
Quinebogan hamboo gowah.”

“Gracious God! How deplorable our situation!”

“Adultery is punished by obliging the culprit to wear a pair of Elkhorns on his shoulders six days & to walk thro’ the city or vilage once each day, at which times the boys are at liberty to pelt him with rotten eggs.”

Words and phrases


Polar star terra firma fish boiled beans clam shell topse turvy

croaking like bullfrogs wigwams buxhum/bucksom common stock wampum

musquetoes toads frogs snails snow coloured Dogs wormwood gawl [sic]

Hope — that Celetial Goddes mamoons cotton (transported from the South)

elk/elkhorn squashes carrots lead porcupines oppossums pencil

laurels tomehauks


Proper names and place names (in order of occurrence, from left to right, top to bottom)

Conneaught Roman Latin America Missisippy Europians Fabius

Rome Constantine Brittain Britan Luian Trojans Jesus Christ Britain

Droll Tom Italy Deliwares September Crito Ieshuran Platonic

Owaho Deliwah Suscowah Owhahon Europe Atlantic

Lucian Asia Egypt Chaldea Ohons Baska Tolanga

Siota Lobaska Sciotans Bombal Kentucks Ohio Hadokam

Hadoram Gamba Ohson Ohians Lambon Labamack

Lambdon Kato Bambo Eri Mishigan Ontario Hamboon

Rambock Talanga Moonrod Elseon Lamesa Helicon

Hambock Lobasca Sambal Labanco Drafolick Hamack

Boakim Hamkol Lakoon Bithawan Gamasko Labano

Habelon Chiango Galanga Ulipoon Michegan Numapon

Glorangus Ramuck Genesco Colorangus Hamock Holiza

Sambol Gambo Labanko Hanock Hamul Taboon

Geheno Ramoff Sabamah Hamelick Rameck Thelford

Hamkien Kelsock Hamkoo Hamko Hakoon Haboon

Ramcoff Nunapon Hemock Lamack

There's three people on this website that make up a good microcosm of why people deny the Book of Mormon imo

You have people like John Tavner who don't believe in the Book of Mormon because there's violence in it. And "God doesn't commit violence." These people look at the Book of Revelation as purely symbolic, that God doesn't use violence, so it has to be that way.

You have people like Pazooka who don't believe in the Book of Mormon because it's claims Jesus Christ

And you have people like Arm Chair Quarterback who don't believe in the Book of Mormon because it would a lend credence to Joseph Smith

(I like all these people...even Pazooka , not attacking them or belittling their beliefs. I respect them , just think they are good representations of a whole. And I'm not saying I know exactly why they don't believe the Book of Mormon. But this is how I perceive it from what I've read about their reservations. 1,000 pardons if I miss represent )


It's God a pacifist?

Is Jesus Christ the Messiah and The God of Israel?

Could Joseph Smith, regardless of his faults, really have translated an ancient Testament of Jesus Christ?

I believe those questions are answered by the Jewish scriptures and Spirit.... And it is unequivocally YES

If the Book of Mormon really happened, who would have an intimate knowledge of it? How would he oppose it? You have to consider the enemy.

I read a lot.... I love fantasy. I love many of the works of the Catholic fathers of old. I love CS Lewis. I love reading historical fiction and fact. Etc

All these things can inspire one to live a more Christ-like life...... But the Book of Mormon reads with the same Spirit that only the words of Christ in the New Testament do. They speak to the soul in a way that cannot be fabricated by a fleshy heart

The Book of Mormon is true. Dead on a hill conviction for me

nightlight wrote: ↑October 27th, 2023, 9:47 am It's God NOT a pacifist?

Is Jesus Christ the Messiah and The God of Israel?

Could Joseph Smith, regardless of his faults, really have translated an ancient Testament of Jesus Christ?

I believe those questions are answered by the Jewish scriptures and Spirit.... And it is unequivocally YES

Fixed the first question for you.

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 9:39 pm I thought the Spaulding manuscript and the Book of Mormon were not even that similar.

Anti church sources have to come up with some sort of explanation for the Book of Mormon, and they try . While I am here I will show you something interesting. Even a negative when searching the scriptures can be an evidence of correct time and correct place for Book of Mormon Prophets.

Book of Mormon Evidence: No Baal Names. Professor Hugh Nibley noted that as a younger man he was once surprised at the total absence of Baal names in the Book of Mormon. “By what unfortunate oversight had the authors of that work failed to include a single name containing the element Baal, which thrives among the personal names of the Old Testament?”

Biblical texts contain many examples of personal and place names which include the theophoric name Baal. According to Yugal Levin, the word baal can mean “lord,” “master,” “husband,” or even “owner.” Although Baal was also the name of a non-Israelite deity (the worship of which was condemned by biblical prophets), Levin notes that because of the broader meaning of the word “in the earliest periods of Israelite national identity, it was common to use the title ‘baal’ as an epithet for the God of Israel.”2 This is why we often find prominent biblical leaders and individuals with Baal names.

Archaeological discoveries made long after the Book of Mormon was published shed light on this issue. Discoveries at the site of Elephantine, an Egyptian city occupied by Jewish settlers in the seventh century BC, yielded a cache of documents which contain many Jewish and other Semitic names of the period. According to Joseph Offord, “out of some four hundred personal names among the Elephantine Papyri not one is compounded of Baal.” For mor detail, use this link.https://evidencecentral.org/evidence/no-baal-names

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑October 27th, 2023, 11:40 am

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 9:39 pm I thought the Spaulding manuscript and the Book of Mormon were not even that similar.

Anti church sources have to come up with some sort of explanation for the Book of Mormon, and they try . While I am here I will show you something interesting. Even a negative when searching the scriptures can be an evidence of correct time and correct place for Book of Mormon Prophets.

Book of Mormon Evidence: No Baal Names. Professor Hugh Nibley noted that as a younger man he was once surprised at the total absence of Baal names in the Book of Mormon. “By what unfortunate oversight had the authors of that work failed to include a single name containing the element Baal, which thrives among the personal names of the Old Testament?”

Biblical texts contain many examples of personal and place names which include the theophoric name Baal. According to Yugal Levin, the word baal can mean “lord,” “master,” “husband,” or even “owner.” Although Baal was also the name of a non-Israelite deity (the worship of which was condemned by biblical prophets), Levin notes that because of the broader meaning of the word “in the earliest periods of Israelite national identity, it was common to use the title ‘baal’ as an epithet for the God of Israel.”2 This is why we often find prominent biblical leaders and individuals with Baal names.

Archaeological discoveries made long after the Book of Mormon was published shed light on this issue. Discoveries at the site of Elephantine, an Egyptian city occupied by Jewish settlers in the seventh century BC, yielded a cache of documents which contain many Jewish and other Semitic names of the period. According to Joseph Offord, “out of some four hundred personal names among the Elephantine Papyri not one is compounded of Baal.” For mor detail, use this link.https://evidencecentral.org/evidence/no-baal-names

The BoM also doesn't have El names (e.g., Ezekiel). They are Jah names (e.g., Mosiah), which is good evidence in support of the time and milieu Lehi and his colony came from. Jaredite names are different yet, and they purport to have come thousands of years earlier (and were non-Semitic).

Rubicon wrote: ↑October 27th, 2023, 11:51 am

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑October 27th, 2023, 11:40 am

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑October 26th, 2023, 9:39 pm I thought the Spaulding manuscript and the Book of Mormon were not even that similar.

Anti church sources have to come up with some sort of explanation for the Book of Mormon, and they try . While I am here I will show you something interesting. Even a negative when searching the scriptures can be an evidence of correct time and correct place for Book of Mormon Prophets.

Book of Mormon Evidence: No Baal Names. Professor Hugh Nibley noted that as a younger man he was once surprised at the total absence of Baal names in the Book of Mormon. “By what unfortunate oversight had the authors of that work failed to include a single name containing the element Baal, which thrives among the personal names of the Old Testament?”

Biblical texts contain many examples of personal and place names which include the theophoric name Baal. According to Yugal Levin, the word baal can mean “lord,” “master,” “husband,” or even “owner.” Although Baal was also the name of a non-Israelite deity (the worship of which was condemned by biblical prophets), Levin notes that because of the broader meaning of the word “in the earliest periods of Israelite national identity, it was common to use the title ‘baal’ as an epithet for the God of Israel.”2 This is why we often find prominent biblical leaders and individuals with Baal names.

Archaeological discoveries made long after the Book of Mormon was published shed light on this issue. Discoveries at the site of Elephantine, an Egyptian city occupied by Jewish settlers in the seventh century BC, yielded a cache of documents which contain many Jewish and other Semitic names of the period. According to Joseph Offord, “out of some four hundred personal names among the Elephantine Papyri not one is compounded of Baal.” For mor detail, use this link.https://evidencecentral.org/evidence/no-baal-names

The BoM also doesn't have El names (e.g., Ezekiel). They are Jah names (e.g., Mosiah), which is good evidence in support of the time and milieu Lehi and his colony came from. Jaredite names are different yet, and they purport to have come thousands of years earlier (and were non-Semitic).

A great post, and I will be putting up more on this very subject in the next two weeks.

No. There are way too many evidences of an ancient origin. Sydney had nothing to do with it. Joseph was just the translator. To think anything else is to strain at a chicken and swallow an elephant.