LDS Freedom Forum

Rubicon wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 10:01 am What does trying to publish the BoM through Thurlow Weed have to do with anything? They even went up to Canada to try to publish it, before contracting to do it with Grandin. The Church has always acknowledged and never disputed offering it to Weed first. It had to be printed by somebody.

Shrug?

Rubicon wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 10:01 am What does trying to publish the BoM through Thurlow Weed have to do with anything? They even went up to Canada to try to publish it, before contracting to do it with Grandin. The Church has always acknowledged and never disputed offering it to Weed first. It had to be printed by somebody.

Shrug?

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 10:35 am Someone paid $13,750 for this one letter.

Thurlow Weed (1797-1882) was a New York newspaper publisher who was very influential in the state's Whig Party. As a young man publishing the Rochester Telegraph, he crossed paths with Mormon prophet Joseph Smith. Near the end of Weed's life, he dictated and signed this letter concerning his encounter with Smith: "Friend Hall: In 1825 or 1826, Joseph Smith the original Mormon called at my office in Rochester saying that he had been guided by inspiration to a cavern near Palmyra, Wayne Co., in which he found a tablet. He then placed this tablet in his hat, from which he read or affected to read the first chapter of the Book of Mormons. His object he said was to employ me to print a book containing a new revelation with which he, as its inspired leader, was to establish a new religion. Having no facilities for book printing, I referred him to Elihu Marshall, a neighboring publisher. Smith called on Mr. Marshall, who also declined, probably as I had done believing the self-styled prophet an impostor. Subsequently, Smith returned, bringing Mr. Harris, a substantial farmer and one of his followers, to be security to pay for cost of printing. Smith then read further revelations from his golden tablet, but I remained incredulous and lost the notoriety of being the first Mormon printer. The book was printed a few months afterwards at Palmyra. Among his early converts was W.W. Phelps, publisher of a paper at Canandaigua. 'Joe Smith' was thick set, smooth face, about five feet eight inches, and apparently 28 or 30 years of age. He had the reputation of being an idle fellow, spending most of his time in the village tavern doing neither good nor harm."
Weed's refusal to print the Book of Mormon is a well-known incident in the early history of the church, but this account appears to be unpublished. Provenance: Originally laid into an 1830 Book of Mormon, sold by Midland Books to Thomas W. Streeter in 1945; Parke-Bernet's Streeter sale, 23 April 1968, IV: 2262; Sotheby's sale, 5 June 1980 to the Forbes Collection.

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 10:54 am

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 10:35 am Someone paid $13,750 for this one letter.

Thurlow Weed (1797-1882) was a New York newspaper publisher who was very influential in the state's Whig Party. As a young man publishing the Rochester Telegraph, he crossed paths with Mormon prophet Joseph Smith. Near the end of Weed's life, he dictated and signed this letter concerning his encounter with Smith: "Friend Hall: In 1825 or 1826, Joseph Smith the original Mormon called at my office in Rochester saying that he had been guided by inspiration to a cavern near Palmyra, Wayne Co., in which he found a tablet. He then placed this tablet in his hat, from which he read or affected to read the first chapter of the Book of Mormons. His object he said was to employ me to print a book containing a new revelation with which he, as its inspired leader, was to establish a new religion. Having no facilities for book printing, I referred him to Elihu Marshall, a neighboring publisher. Smith called on Mr. Marshall, who also declined, probably as I had done believing the self-styled prophet an impostor. Subsequently, Smith returned, bringing Mr. Harris, a substantial farmer and one of his followers, to be security to pay for cost of printing. Smith then read further revelations from his golden tablet, but I remained incredulous and lost the notoriety of being the first Mormon printer. The book was printed a few months afterwards at Palmyra. Among his early converts was W.W. Phelps, publisher of a paper at Canandaigua. 'Joe Smith' was thick set, smooth face, about five feet eight inches, and apparently 28 or 30 years of age. He had the reputation of being an idle fellow, spending most of his time in the village tavern doing neither good nor harm."
Weed's refusal to print the Book of Mormon is a well-known incident in the early history of the church, but this account appears to be unpublished. Provenance: Originally laid into an 1830 Book of Mormon, sold by Midland Books to Thomas W. Streeter in 1945; Parke-Bernet's Streeter sale, 23 April 1968, IV: 2262; Sotheby's sale, 5 June 1980 to the Forbes Collection.

This is a neat piece of history, I wonder how much of it was remembered accurately and how much of his memory was affected by rumors and other stories her hears.
I also wonder who felt like it was worst that much! Lol and why?

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 3:40 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 10:54 am

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 10:35 am Someone paid $13,750 for this one letter.

Thurlow Weed (1797-1882) was a New York newspaper publisher who was very influential in the state's Whig Party. As a young man publishing the Rochester Telegraph, he crossed paths with Mormon prophet Joseph Smith. Near the end of Weed's life, he dictated and signed this letter concerning his encounter with Smith: "Friend Hall: In 1825 or 1826, Joseph Smith the original Mormon called at my office in Rochester saying that he had been guided by inspiration to a cavern near Palmyra, Wayne Co., in which he found a tablet. He then placed this tablet in his hat, from which he read or affected to read the first chapter of the Book of Mormons. His object he said was to employ me to print a book containing a new revelation with which he, as its inspired leader, was to establish a new religion. Having no facilities for book printing, I referred him to Elihu Marshall, a neighboring publisher. Smith called on Mr. Marshall, who also declined, probably as I had done believing the self-styled prophet an impostor. Subsequently, Smith returned, bringing Mr. Harris, a substantial farmer and one of his followers, to be security to pay for cost of printing. Smith then read further revelations from his golden tablet, but I remained incredulous and lost the notoriety of being the first Mormon printer. The book was printed a few months afterwards at Palmyra. Among his early converts was W.W. Phelps, publisher of a paper at Canandaigua. 'Joe Smith' was thick set, smooth face, about five feet eight inches, and apparently 28 or 30 years of age. He had the reputation of being an idle fellow, spending most of his time in the village tavern doing neither good nor harm."
Weed's refusal to print the Book of Mormon is a well-known incident in the early history of the church, but this account appears to be unpublished. Provenance: Originally laid into an 1830 Book of Mormon, sold by Midland Books to Thomas W. Streeter in 1945; Parke-Bernet's Streeter sale, 23 April 1968, IV: 2262; Sotheby's sale, 5 June 1980 to the Forbes Collection.

This is a neat piece of history, I wonder how much of it was remembered accurately and how much of his memory was affected by rumors and other stories her hears.
I also wonder who felt like it was worst that much! Lol and why?

Malcolm Forbes purchased it to include in his collection of American documents known as the Forbes Collection.

I wonder how much your desire for Weed’s account to be inaccurate affects your ability to judge.

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 5:17 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 3:40 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 10:54 am

This is a neat piece of history, I wonder how much of it was remembered accurately and how much of his memory was affected by rumors and other stories her hears.
I also wonder who felt like it was worst that much! Lol and why?

Malcolm Forbes purchased it to include in his collection of American documents known as the Forbes Collection.

I wonder how much your desire for Weed’s account to be inaccurate affects your ability to judge.

Was it like a bid to where multiple people wanted it and that's what made it so high? Or was it just that he thought it was worth that much and paid it?
And I agree, our opinion biases are more powerful than we give them credit for. I don't trust memory at all, i think memories are good and like the story itself is always helpful, but even if the story is remembered the same month there are usually inaccuracies and it takes multiple accounts to even get a rough image of what happened. I love the stories in the Bible and book of Mormon, but how many of them are accurate and how many are just the perception of the prophet or person writing it?
As for the account, I am fine with what he said, but maybe I'm not following your argument. Like what is the letter proving in your eyes?

Edit:I'm re reading the thread to try and understand but i keep getting distracted by kiddos so if I finish before you respond I may have a new understanding, ill lyk.

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:00 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 5:17 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 3:40 pm

Malcolm Forbes purchased it to include in his collection of American documents known as the Forbes Collection.

I wonder how much your desire for Weed’s account to be inaccurate affects your ability to judge.

Was it like a bid to where multiple people wanted it and that's what made it so high? Or was it just that he thought it was worth that much and paid it?
And I agree, our opinion biases are more powerful than we give them credit for. I don't trust memory at all, i think memories are good and like the story itself is always helpful, but even if the story is remembered the same month there are usually inaccuracies and it takes multiple accounts to even get a rough image of what happened. I love the stories in the Bible and book of Mormon, but how many of them are accurate and how many are just the perception of the prophet or person writing it?
As for the account, I am fine with what he said, but maybe I'm not following your argument. Like what is the letter proving in your eyes?

Edit:I'm re reading the thread to try and understand but i keep getting distracted by kiddos so if I finish before you respond I may have a new understanding, ill lyk.

The timing of Joseph Smith’s interactions with Thurlow Weed is vitally important.

JS claimed to have received the plates in September of 1827.

Weed bought the Rochester Telegraph in 1825 and was forced out by the Masons due to his anti-Masonic activity in 1828. In the spring of 1829 translation of the BofM was said to have just barely begun.

LDS sources have the search for a BofM printer in 1829.

It is very unlikely Thurlow Weed got his dates mixed up due to obvious timeline constraints.

MR. THURLOW WEED'S STATEMENT.
NEW YORK, April 12th, 1880.

In 1825, when I was publishing the "Rochester Telegraph," a man introduced himself to me as Joseph Smith, of Palmyra, New York, whose object, he said, was to get a book published. He then stated he had been guided by a vision to a spot he described, where, in a cavern, he found what he called a golden bible. It consisted of a tablet which he placed in his hat, and from which he proceeded to read the first chapter of the Book of Mormon.

I listened until I became weary of what seemed to me an incomprehensible jargon. I then told him I was only publishing a newspaper, and that he would have to go to a book publisher, suggesting a friend who was in that business. A few days afterward Smith called again, bringing a substantial farmer with him named Harris. Smith renewed his request that I should print his book, adding that it was a divine revelation, and would be accepted, and that he would be accepted by the world as a prophet. Supposing that I had doubts as to his being able to pay for the publishing, Mr. Harris, who was a convert, offered to be his security for payment. Meantime, I had discovered that Smith was a shrewd, scheming fellow who passed his time at taverns and stores in Palmyra, without business, and apparently without visible means of support. He seemed about thirty years of age, was compactly built, about five feet eight inches in height, had regular features, and would impress one favorably in conversation. His book was afterward published in Palmyra. I knew the publisher, but cannot at this moment remember his name. The first Mormon newspaper was published at Canandaigua, New York, by a man named Phelps, who accompanied Smith as an apostle to Illinois, where the first Mormon city, Nauvoo, was started.
(Signed) THURLOW WEED.

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:11 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:00 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 5:17 pm

Was it like a bid to where multiple people wanted it and that's what made it so high? Or was it just that he thought it was worth that much and paid it?
And I agree, our opinion biases are more powerful than we give them credit for. I don't trust memory at all, i think memories are good and like the story itself is always helpful, but even if the story is remembered the same month there are usually inaccuracies and it takes multiple accounts to even get a rough image of what happened. I love the stories in the Bible and book of Mormon, but how many of them are accurate and how many are just the perception of the prophet or person writing it?
As for the account, I am fine with what he said, but maybe I'm not following your argument. Like what is the letter proving in your eyes?

Edit:I'm re reading the thread to try and understand but i keep getting distracted by kiddos so if I finish before you respond I may have a new understanding, ill lyk.

The timing of Joseph Smith’s interactions with Thurlow Weed is vitally important.

JS claimed to have received the plates in September of 1827.

Weed bought the Rochester Telegraph in 1825 and was forced out by the Masons due to his anti-Masonic activity in 1828. In the spring of 1829 translation of the BofM was said to have just barely begun.

LDS sources have the search for a BofM printer in 1829.

It is very unlikely Thurlow Weed got his dates mixed up due to obvious timeline constraints.

MR. THURLOW WEED'S STATEMENT.
NEW YORK, April 12th, 1880.

In 1825, when I was publishing the "Rochester Telegraph," a man introduced himself to me as Joseph Smith, of Palmyra, New York, whose object, he said, was to get a book published. He then stated he had been guided by a vision to a spot he described, where, in a cavern, he found what he called a golden bible. It consisted of a tablet which he placed in his hat, and from which he proceeded to read the first chapter of the Book of Mormon.

I listened until I became weary of what seemed to me an incomprehensible jargon. I then told him I was only publishing a newspaper, and that he would have to go to a book publisher, suggesting a friend who was in that business. A few days afterward Smith called again, bringing a substantial farmer with him named Harris. Smith renewed his request that I should print his book, adding that it was a divine revelation, and would be accepted, and that he would be accepted by the world as a prophet. Supposing that I had doubts as to his being able to pay for the publishing, Mr. Harris, who was a convert, offered to be his security for payment. Meantime, I had discovered that Smith was a shrewd, scheming fellow who passed his time at taverns and stores in Palmyra, without business, and apparently without visible means of support. He seemed about thirty years of age, was compactly built, about five feet eight inches in height, had regular features, and would impress one favorably in conversation. His book was afterward published in Palmyra. I knew the publisher, but cannot at this moment remember his name. The first Mormon newspaper was published at Canandaigua, New York, by a man named Phelps, who accompanied Smith as an apostle to Illinois, where the first Mormon city, Nauvoo, was started.
(Signed) THURLOW WEED.

Never trust anyone named weed.

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:00 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 5:17 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 3:40 pm

Malcolm Forbes purchased it to include in his collection of American documents known as the Forbes Collection.

I wonder how much your desire for Weed’s account to be inaccurate affects your ability to judge.

Was it like a bid to where multiple people wanted it and that's what made it so high? Or was it just that he thought it was worth that much and paid it?
And I agree, our opinion biases are more powerful than we give them credit for. I don't trust memory at all, i think memories are good and like the story itself is always helpful, but even if the story is remembered the same month there are usually inaccuracies and it takes multiple accounts to even get a rough image of what happened. I love the stories in the Bible and book of Mormon, but how many of them are accurate and how many are just the perception of the prophet or person writing it?
As for the account, I am fine with what he said, but maybe I'm not following your argument. Like what is the letter proving in your eyes?

Edit:I'm re reading the thread to try and understand but i keep getting distracted by kiddos so if I finish before you respond I may have a new understanding, ill lyk.

The timing of Joseph Smith’s interactions with Thurlow Weed is vitally important.

JS claimed to have received the plates in September of 1827.

Weed bought the Rochester Telegraph in 1825 and was forced out by the Masons due to his anti-Masonic activity in 1828. In the spring of 1829 translation of the BofM was said to have just barely begun.

LDS sources have the search for a BofM printer in 1829.

It is very unlikely Thurlow Weed got his dates mixed up due to obvious timeline constraints.

MR. THURLOW WEED'S STATEMENT.
NEW YORK, April 12th, 1880.

In 1825, when I was publishing the "Rochester Telegraph," a man introduced himself to me as Joseph Smith, of Palmyra, New York, whose object, he said, was to get a book published. He then stated he had been guided by a vision to a spot he described, where, in a cavern, he found what he called a golden bible. It consisted of a tablet which he placed in his hat, and from which he proceeded to read the first chapter of the Book of Mormon.

I listened until I became weary of what seemed to me an incomprehensible jargon. I then told him I was only publishing a newspaper, and that he would have to go to a book publisher, suggesting a friend who was in that business. A few days afterward Smith called again, bringing a substantial farmer with him named Harris. Smith renewed his request that I should print his book, adding that it was a divine revelation, and would be accepted, and that he would be accepted by the world as a prophet. Supposing that I had doubts as to his being able to pay for the publishing, Mr. Harris, who was a convert, offered to be his security for payment. Meantime, I had discovered that Smith was a shrewd, scheming fellow who passed his time at taverns and stores in Palmyra, without business, and apparently without visible means of support. He seemed about thirty years of age, was compactly built, about five feet eight inches in height, had regular features, and would impress one favorably in conversation. His book was afterward published in Palmyra. I knew the publisher, but cannot at this moment remember his name. The first Mormon newspaper was published at Canandaigua, New York, by a man named Phelps, who accompanied Smith as an apostle to Illinois, where the first Mormon city, Nauvoo, was started.
(Signed) THURLOW WEED.

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:33 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:00 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 5:17 pm

Was it like a bid to where multiple people wanted it and that's what made it so high? Or was it just that he thought it was worth that much and paid it?
And I agree, our opinion biases are more powerful than we give them credit for. I don't trust memory at all, i think memories are good and like the story itself is always helpful, but even if the story is remembered the same month there are usually inaccuracies and it takes multiple accounts to even get a rough image of what happened. I love the stories in the Bible and book of Mormon, but how many of them are accurate and how many are just the perception of the prophet or person writing it?
As for the account, I am fine with what he said, but maybe I'm not following your argument. Like what is the letter proving in your eyes?

Edit:I'm re reading the thread to try and understand but i keep getting distracted by kiddos so if I finish before you respond I may have a new understanding, ill lyk.

The timing of Joseph Smith’s interactions with Thurlow Weed is vitally important.

JS claimed to have received the plates in September of 1827.

Weed bought the Rochester Telegraph in 1825 and was forced out by the Masons due to his anti-Masonic activity in 1828. In the spring of 1829 translation of the BofM was said to have just barely begun.

LDS sources have the search for a BofM printer in 1829.

It is very unlikely Thurlow Weed got his dates mixed up due to obvious timeline constraints.

MR. THURLOW WEED'S STATEMENT.
NEW YORK, April 12th, 1880.

In 1825, when I was publishing the "Rochester Telegraph," a man introduced himself to me as Joseph Smith, of Palmyra, New York, whose object, he said, was to get a book published. He then stated he had been guided by a vision to a spot he described, where, in a cavern, he found what he called a golden bible. It consisted of a tablet which he placed in his hat, and from which he proceeded to read the first chapter of the Book of Mormon.

I listened until I became weary of what seemed to me an incomprehensible jargon. I then told him I was only publishing a newspaper, and that he would have to go to a book publisher, suggesting a friend who was in that business. A few days afterward Smith called again, bringing a substantial farmer with him named Harris. Smith renewed his request that I should print his book, adding that it was a divine revelation, and would be accepted, and that he would be accepted by the world as a prophet. Supposing that I had doubts as to his being able to pay for the publishing, Mr. Harris, who was a convert, offered to be his security for payment. Meantime, I had discovered that Smith was a shrewd, scheming fellow who passed his time at taverns and stores in Palmyra, without business, and apparently without visible means of support. He seemed about thirty years of age, was compactly built, about five feet eight inches in height, had regular features, and would impress one favorably in conversation. His book was afterward published in Palmyra. I knew the publisher, but cannot at this moment remember his name. The first Mormon newspaper was published at Canandaigua, New York, by a man named Phelps, who accompanied Smith as an apostle to Illinois, where the first Mormon city, Nauvoo, was started.
(Signed) THURLOW WEED.

Thank you that's interesting. Didn't joseph see the plates and talk with moroni about them for years before actually acquiring them?

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:37 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:33 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:00 pm

The timing of Joseph Smith’s interactions with Thurlow Weed is vitally important.

JS claimed to have received the plates in September of 1827.

Weed bought the Rochester Telegraph in 1825 and was forced out by the Masons due to his anti-Masonic activity in 1828. In the spring of 1829 translation of the BofM was said to have just barely begun.

LDS sources have the search for a BofM printer in 1829.

It is very unlikely Thurlow Weed got his dates mixed up due to obvious timeline constraints.

MR. THURLOW WEED'S STATEMENT.
NEW YORK, April 12th, 1880.

In 1825, when I was publishing the "Rochester Telegraph," a man introduced himself to me as Joseph Smith, of Palmyra, New York, whose object, he said, was to get a book published. He then stated he had been guided by a vision to a spot he described, where, in a cavern, he found what he called a golden bible. It consisted of a tablet which he placed in his hat, and from which he proceeded to read the first chapter of the Book of Mormon.

I listened until I became weary of what seemed to me an incomprehensible jargon. I then told him I was only publishing a newspaper, and that he would have to go to a book publisher, suggesting a friend who was in that business. A few days afterward Smith called again, bringing a substantial farmer with him named Harris. Smith renewed his request that I should print his book, adding that it was a divine revelation, and would be accepted, and that he would be accepted by the world as a prophet. Supposing that I had doubts as to his being able to pay for the publishing, Mr. Harris, who was a convert, offered to be his security for payment. Meantime, I had discovered that Smith was a shrewd, scheming fellow who passed his time at taverns and stores in Palmyra, without business, and apparently without visible means of support. He seemed about thirty years of age, was compactly built, about five feet eight inches in height, had regular features, and would impress one favorably in conversation. His book was afterward published in Palmyra. I knew the publisher, but cannot at this moment remember his name. The first Mormon newspaper was published at Canandaigua, New York, by a man named Phelps, who accompanied Smith as an apostle to Illinois, where the first Mormon city, Nauvoo, was started.
(Signed) THURLOW WEED.

Thank you that's interesting. Didn't joseph see the plates and talk with moroni about them for years before actually acquiring them?

Yes he did, and made detailed reports to his family members.

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:33 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:00 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 5:17 pm

Was it like a bid to where multiple people wanted it and that's what made it so high? Or was it just that he thought it was worth that much and paid it?
And I agree, our opinion biases are more powerful than we give them credit for. I don't trust memory at all, i think memories are good and like the story itself is always helpful, but even if the story is remembered the same month there are usually inaccuracies and it takes multiple accounts to even get a rough image of what happened. I love the stories in the Bible and book of Mormon, but how many of them are accurate and how many are just the perception of the prophet or person writing it?
As for the account, I am fine with what he said, but maybe I'm not following your argument. Like what is the letter proving in your eyes?

Edit:I'm re reading the thread to try and understand but i keep getting distracted by kiddos so if I finish before you respond I may have a new understanding, ill lyk.

The timing of Joseph Smith’s interactions with Thurlow Weed is vitally important.

JS claimed to have received the plates in September of 1827.

Weed bought the Rochester Telegraph in 1825 and was forced out by the Masons due to his anti-Masonic activity in 1828. In the spring of 1829 translation of the BofM was said to have just barely begun.

LDS sources have the search for a BofM printer in 1829.

It is very unlikely Thurlow Weed got his dates mixed up due to obvious timeline constraints.

MR. THURLOW WEED'S STATEMENT.
NEW YORK, April 12th, 1880.

In 1825, when I was publishing the "Rochester Telegraph," a man introduced himself to me as Joseph Smith, of Palmyra, New York, whose object, he said, was to get a book published. He then stated he had been guided by a vision to a spot he described, where, in a cavern, he found what he called a golden bible. It consisted of a tablet which he placed in his hat, and from which he proceeded to read the first chapter of the Book of Mormon.

I listened until I became weary of what seemed to me an incomprehensible jargon. I then told him I was only publishing a newspaper, and that he would have to go to a book publisher, suggesting a friend who was in that business. A few days afterward Smith called again, bringing a substantial farmer with him named Harris. Smith renewed his request that I should print his book, adding that it was a divine revelation, and would be accepted, and that he would be accepted by the world as a prophet. Supposing that I had doubts as to his being able to pay for the publishing, Mr. Harris, who was a convert, offered to be his security for payment. Meantime, I had discovered that Smith was a shrewd, scheming fellow who passed his time at taverns and stores in Palmyra, without business, and apparently without visible means of support. He seemed about thirty years of age, was compactly built, about five feet eight inches in height, had regular features, and would impress one favorably in conversation. His book was afterward published in Palmyra. I knew the publisher, but cannot at this moment remember his name. The first Mormon newspaper was published at Canandaigua, New York, by a man named Phelps, who accompanied Smith as an apostle to Illinois, where the first Mormon city, Nauvoo, was started.
(Signed) THURLOW WEED.

Thank you that's interesting. Didn't joseph see the plates and talk with moroni about them for years before actually acquiring them?

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 7:03 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:33 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:00 pm

The timing of Joseph Smith’s interactions with Thurlow Weed is vitally important.

JS claimed to have received the plates in September of 1827.

Weed bought the Rochester Telegraph in 1825 and was forced out by the Masons due to his anti-Masonic activity in 1828. In the spring of 1829 translation of the BofM was said to have just barely begun.

LDS sources have the search for a BofM printer in 1829.

It is very unlikely Thurlow Weed got his dates mixed up due to obvious timeline constraints.

MR. THURLOW WEED'S STATEMENT.
NEW YORK, April 12th, 1880.

In 1825, when I was publishing the "Rochester Telegraph," a man introduced himself to me as Joseph Smith, of Palmyra, New York, whose object, he said, was to get a book published. He then stated he had been guided by a vision to a spot he described, where, in a cavern, he found what he called a golden bible. It consisted of a tablet which he placed in his hat, and from which he proceeded to read the first chapter of the Book of Mormon.

I listened until I became weary of what seemed to me an incomprehensible jargon. I then told him I was only publishing a newspaper, and that he would have to go to a book publisher, suggesting a friend who was in that business. A few days afterward Smith called again, bringing a substantial farmer with him named Harris. Smith renewed his request that I should print his book, adding that it was a divine revelation, and would be accepted, and that he would be accepted by the world as a prophet. Supposing that I had doubts as to his being able to pay for the publishing, Mr. Harris, who was a convert, offered to be his security for payment. Meantime, I had discovered that Smith was a shrewd, scheming fellow who passed his time at taverns and stores in Palmyra, without business, and apparently without visible means of support. He seemed about thirty years of age, was compactly built, about five feet eight inches in height, had regular features, and would impress one favorably in conversation. His book was afterward published in Palmyra. I knew the publisher, but cannot at this moment remember his name. The first Mormon newspaper was published at Canandaigua, New York, by a man named Phelps, who accompanied Smith as an apostle to Illinois, where the first Mormon city, Nauvoo, was started.
(Signed) THURLOW WEED.

Thank you that's interesting. Didn't joseph see the plates and talk with moroni about them for years before actually acquiring them?

Weed described JS as having read to him a whole chapter by means of a tablet in a hat in order to persuade him to publish the BofM in 1825.

How would the angel Moroni have figured into that?

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 7:18 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 7:03 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:33 pm

Thank you that's interesting. Didn't joseph see the plates and talk with moroni about them for years before actually acquiring them?

Weed described JS as having read to him a whole chapter by means of a tablet in a hat in order to persuade him to publish the BofM in 1825.

How would the angel Moroni have figured into that?

So Joseph may have taken the urim and thummim during the first visit to the plates? My reason for bringing moroni is that If you are talking to the guy who wrote the book, wouldn't he be able to tell you what is init? did he mean that Joseph actually had a chapter of the Book written in his hands? I memorized the crap out of the lord of the rings when I was 15 and could quote you pages of it. I imagine if an angel was telling me about yhe history of his people it would have an even more last8ng impression on my mind that the Lord of rings did.

Edit: I realize I misunderstood what you said about the hat, you think Weed is saying that he witnessed Joseph translate the book? The way the letter is written doesn't seem to say it the way you are interpreting it.

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 7:40 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 7:18 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 7:03 pm

Weed described JS as having read to him a whole chapter by means of a tablet in a hat in order to persuade him to publish the BofM in 1825.

How would the angel Moroni have figured into that?

So Joseph may have taken the urim and thummim during the first visit to the plates? My reason for bringing moroni is that If you are talking to the guy who wrote the book, wouldn't he be able to tell you what is init? did he mean that Joseph actually had a chapter of the Book written in his hands? I memorized the crap out of the lord of the rings when I was 15 and could quote you pages of it. I imagine if an angel was telling me about yhe history of his people it would have an even more last8ng impression on my mind that the Lord of rings did.

Edit: I realize I misunderstood what you said about the hat, you think Weed is saying that he witnessed Joseph translate the book? The way the letter is written doesn't seem to say it the way you are interpreting it.

The way it is written is ambiguous whether JS told him the chapter was translated from a tablet in a hat or if he performed the translation in his presence. Either way, it is not consistent with the account JS would later give.

It is worth noting that Spaulding’s daughter would consent to submitting an affidavit detailing the chain of custody for the manuscript her father had labeled “Manuscript Found” (in his own hand - unlike the Oberlin manuscript which had “Manuscript Found” pencilled in by an eager party). She and her mother had relinquished the inch thick manuscript to Philastus Hurlbut with the understanding he would return it. When they tried to recover it and had a letter delivered from them directly into his hands requesting its return, he refused to answer. The rumor at the time was that it had been sold to the Mormon church for $300 and that it was destroyed.

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 9:17 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 7:40 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 7:18 pm

So Joseph may have taken the urim and thummim during the first visit to the plates? My reason for bringing moroni is that If you are talking to the guy who wrote the book, wouldn't he be able to tell you what is init? did he mean that Joseph actually had a chapter of the Book written in his hands? I memorized the crap out of the lord of the rings when I was 15 and could quote you pages of it. I imagine if an angel was telling me about yhe history of his people it would have an even more last8ng impression on my mind that the Lord of rings did.

Edit: I realize I misunderstood what you said about the hat, you think Weed is saying that he witnessed Joseph translate the book? The way the letter is written doesn't seem to say it the way you are interpreting it.

The way it is written is ambiguous whether JS told him the chapter was translated from a tablet in a hat or if he performed the translation in his presence. Either way, it is not consistent with the account JS would later give.

It is worth noting that Spaulding’s daughter would consent to submitting an affidavit detailing the chain of custody for the manuscript her father had labeled “Manuscript Found” (in his own hand - unlike the Oberlin manuscript which had “Manuscript Found” pencilled in by an eager party). She and her mother had relinquished the inch thick manuscript to Philastus Hurlbut with the understanding he would return it. When they tried to recover it and had a letter delivered from them directly into his hands requesting its return, he refused to answer. The rumor at the time was that it had been sold to the Mormon church for $300 and that it was destroyed.

So if I'm understanding the thought process here, un order to discredit a book that does, ( that inmy estimation done more than you or I ever could to bring men happiness) I have to take an ambiguous interpretation of a note written near the end of a man's life about something that happened a lifetime before. HIs daughters recollection of what she remembers her parents dealing with. And then a rumor?
Like in what reality does this sound like a reasonable argument? I originally thought you had some kind of evidence but this is conjecture in the extreme.
I get that it feels cool to think you are uncovering some kind of "national treasure"esque conspiracy but the truth Is far more simple.

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 10:08 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 9:17 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 7:40 pm

The way it is written is ambiguous whether JS told him the chapter was translated from a tablet in a hat or if he performed the translation in his presence. Either way, it is not consistent with the account JS would later give.

It is worth noting that Spaulding’s daughter would consent to submitting an affidavit detailing the chain of custody for the manuscript her father had labeled “Manuscript Found” (in his own hand - unlike the Oberlin manuscript which had “Manuscript Found” pencilled in by an eager party). She and her mother had relinquished the inch thick manuscript to Philastus Hurlbut with the understanding he would return it. When they tried to recover it and had a letter delivered from them directly into his hands requesting its return, he refused to answer. The rumor at the time was that it had been sold to the Mormon church for $300 and that it was destroyed.

So if I'm understanding the thought process here, un order to discredit a book that does, ( that inmy estimation done more than you or I ever could to bring men happiness) I have to take an ambiguous interpretation of a note written near the end of a man's life about something that happened a lifetime before. HIs daughters recollection of what she remembers her parents dealing with. And then a rumor?
Like in what reality does this sound like a reasonable argument? I originally thought you had some kind of evidence but this is conjecture in the extreme.
I get that it feels cool to think you are uncovering some kind of "national treasure"esque conspiracy but the truth Is far more simple.

Peel it back a tad and let’s reframe. Mine is not an attempt to “discredit” anything. I want to know the facts as they actually exist.

I’m not sure why the word “conspiracy” keeps getting used when maybe the word “con” would be more suitable since it would have required very few to keep the secret and, instead, would have called for charisma and salesmanship. This is not really an “uncovering” either since these facts have attempted to prevail upon the public since the beginning of JS’s career.

These statements made by the individuals in question simply exist. You can take them or leave them but they will still be there…150 years ago, today and forever.

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 10:32 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 10:08 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 9:17 pm

So if I'm understanding the thought process here, un order to discredit a book that does, ( that inmy estimation done more than you or I ever could to bring men happiness) I have to take an ambiguous interpretation of a note written near the end of a man's life about something that happened a lifetime before. HIs daughters recollection of what she remembers her parents dealing with. And then a rumor?
Like in what reality does this sound like a reasonable argument? I originally thought you had some kind of evidence but this is conjecture in the extreme.
I get that it feels cool to think you are uncovering some kind of "national treasure"esque conspiracy but the truth Is far more simple.

Peel it back a tad and let’s reframe. Mine is not an attempt to “discredit” anything. I want to know the facts as they actually exist.

I’m not sure why the word “conspiracy” keeps getting used when maybe the word “con” would be more suitable since it would have required very few to keep the secret and, instead, would have called for charisma and salesmanship. This is not really an “uncovering” either since these facts have attempted to prevail upon the public since the beginning of JS’s career.

These statements made by the individuals in question simply exist. You can take them or leave them but they will still be there…150 years ago, today and forever.

Your right, I'm sorry i got upset since I let myself believe there was more to this than there was.

The statements are fine, taking those statements as more truthful than the other statements is what I dont see value in.

So what will you do with these facts when you discover them? Will your publish8ng of these "facts" do more harm or good for the souls of men? It seems like for a seeker of facts you have to use alot of assumptions words like rumor, thought, heard, remembered, and other things that are contrary to facts.

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 11:12 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 10:32 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 10:08 pm

Peel it back a tad and let’s reframe. Mine is not an attempt to “discredit” anything. I want to know the facts as they actually exist.

I’m not sure why the word “conspiracy” keeps getting used when maybe the word “con” would be more suitable since it would have required very few to keep the secret and, instead, would have called for charisma and salesmanship. This is not really an “uncovering” either since these facts have attempted to prevail upon the public since the beginning of JS’s career.

These statements made by the individuals in question simply exist. You can take them or leave them but they will still be there…150 years ago, today and forever.

Your right, I'm sorry i got upset since I let myself believe there was more to this than there was.

The statements are fine, taking those statements as more truthful than the other statements is what I dont see value in.

So what will you do with these facts when you discover them? Will your publish8ng of these "facts" do more harm or good for the souls of men? It seems like for a seeker of facts you have to use alot of assumptions words like rumor, thought, heard, remembered, and other things that are contrary to facts.

What you have to understand about my perspective is that, for decades, my starting point was that the BofM was God’s truth and I only really saw the data that conformed.

About the souls of men and what does harm or good…what if you were to become aware that there were themes and teachings, explicit and implied, in the BofM that were actually harmful to your soul’s connection with and knowledge of God and the way of happiness and Life? Fear of knowledge goes hand in hand with delusion.

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:00 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 5:17 pm

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 3:40 pm

Malcolm Forbes purchased it to include in his collection of American documents known as the Forbes Collection.

I wonder how much your desire for Weed’s account to be inaccurate affects your ability to judge.

Was it like a bid to where multiple people wanted it and that's what made it so high? Or was it just that he thought it was worth that much and paid it?
And I agree, our opinion biases are more powerful than we give them credit for. I don't trust memory at all, i think memories are good and like the story itself is always helpful, but even if the story is remembered the same month there are usually inaccuracies and it takes multiple accounts to even get a rough image of what happened. I love the stories in the Bible and book of Mormon, but how many of them are accurate and how many are just the perception of the prophet or person writing it?
As for the account, I am fine with what he said, but maybe I'm not following your argument. Like what is the letter proving in your eyes?

Edit:I'm re reading the thread to try and understand but i keep getting distracted by kiddos so if I finish before you respond I may have a new understanding, ill lyk.

The timing of Joseph Smith’s interactions with Thurlow Weed is vitally important.

JS claimed to have received the plates in September of 1827.

Weed bought the Rochester Telegraph in 1825 and was forced out by the Masons due to his anti-Masonic activity in 1828. In the spring of 1829 translation of the BofM was said to have just barely begun.

LDS sources have the search for a BofM printer in 1829.

It is very unlikely Thurlow Weed got his dates mixed up due to obvious timeline constraints.

MR. THURLOW WEED'S STATEMENT.
NEW YORK, April 12th, 1880.

In 1825, when I was publishing the "Rochester Telegraph," a man introduced himself to me as Joseph Smith, of Palmyra, New York, whose object, he said, was to get a book published. He then stated he had been guided by a vision to a spot he described, where, in a cavern, he found what he called a golden bible. It consisted of a tablet which he placed in his hat, and from which he proceeded to read the first chapter of the Book of Mormon.

I listened until I became weary of what seemed to me an incomprehensible jargon. I then told him I was only publishing a newspaper, and that he would have to go to a book publisher, suggesting a friend who was in that business. A few days afterward Smith called again, bringing a substantial farmer with him named Harris. Smith renewed his request that I should print his book, adding that it was a divine revelation, and would be accepted, and that he would be accepted by the world as a prophet. Supposing that I had doubts as to his being able to pay for the publishing, Mr. Harris, who was a convert, offered to be his security for payment. Meantime, I had discovered that Smith was a shrewd, scheming fellow who passed his time at taverns and stores in Palmyra, without business, and apparently without visible means of support. He seemed about thirty years of age, was compactly built, about five feet eight inches in height, had regular features, and would impress one favorably in conversation. His book was afterward published in Palmyra. I knew the publisher, but cannot at this moment remember his name. The first Mormon newspaper was published at Canandaigua, New York, by a man named Phelps, who accompanied Smith as an apostle to Illinois, where the first Mormon city, Nauvoo, was started.
(Signed) THURLOW WEED.

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: ↑October 29th, 2023, 7:22 am

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 6:00 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 5:17 pm

Was it like a bid to where multiple people wanted it and that's what made it so high? Or was it just that he thought it was worth that much and paid it?
And I agree, our opinion biases are more powerful than we give them credit for. I don't trust memory at all, i think memories are good and like the story itself is always helpful, but even if the story is remembered the same month there are usually inaccuracies and it takes multiple accounts to even get a rough image of what happened. I love the stories in the Bible and book of Mormon, but how many of them are accurate and how many are just the perception of the prophet or person writing it?
As for the account, I am fine with what he said, but maybe I'm not following your argument. Like what is the letter proving in your eyes?

Edit:I'm re reading the thread to try and understand but i keep getting distracted by kiddos so if I finish before you respond I may have a new understanding, ill lyk.

The timing of Joseph Smith’s interactions with Thurlow Weed is vitally important.

JS claimed to have received the plates in September of 1827.

Weed bought the Rochester Telegraph in 1825 and was forced out by the Masons due to his anti-Masonic activity in 1828. In the spring of 1829 translation of the BofM was said to have just barely begun.

LDS sources have the search for a BofM printer in 1829.

It is very unlikely Thurlow Weed got his dates mixed up due to obvious timeline constraints.

MR. THURLOW WEED'S STATEMENT.
NEW YORK, April 12th, 1880.

In 1825, when I was publishing the "Rochester Telegraph," a man introduced himself to me as Joseph Smith, of Palmyra, New York, whose object, he said, was to get a book published. He then stated he had been guided by a vision to a spot he described, where, in a cavern, he found what he called a golden bible. It consisted of a tablet which he placed in his hat, and from which he proceeded to read the first chapter of the Book of Mormon.

I listened until I became weary of what seemed to me an incomprehensible jargon. I then told him I was only publishing a newspaper, and that he would have to go to a book publisher, suggesting a friend who was in that business. A few days afterward Smith called again, bringing a substantial farmer with him named Harris. Smith renewed his request that I should print his book, adding that it was a divine revelation, and would be accepted, and that he would be accepted by the world as a prophet. Supposing that I had doubts as to his being able to pay for the publishing, Mr. Harris, who was a convert, offered to be his security for payment. Meantime, I had discovered that Smith was a shrewd, scheming fellow who passed his time at taverns and stores in Palmyra, without business, and apparently without visible means of support. He seemed about thirty years of age, was compactly built, about five feet eight inches in height, had regular features, and would impress one favorably in conversation. His book was afterward published in Palmyra. I knew the publisher, but cannot at this moment remember his name. The first Mormon newspaper was published at Canandaigua, New York, by a man named Phelps, who accompanied Smith as an apostle to Illinois, where the first Mormon city, Nauvoo, was started.
(Signed) THURLOW WEED.

Are you saying the dates are important because an author doesn't go looking for a publisher (1825 with Weed) until he has a manuscript to publish (1829). So JS was either publisher hunting in advance of having a manuscript to print, or he had one finished, or partly finished and was shopping it around for publication, but later, changed the timeline of manuscript publication to fit another narrative? Is that what you're saying?

Is that relevant to anything other than changing timelines? We have the manuscript finished and published. Wither or not Joseph Smith was seeking a publisher in advance of having a manuscript or not is probably irrelevant. But the changing timeline narrative points to something else going on. Why is the timeline of events changing? Is it just poor memory? Or is it that the timeline of events has to fit a narrative that wasn't conceived until years later, so the dates had to be changed in order to make the timeline of restoration events fit seamlessly?

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑October 29th, 2023, 12:22 am

Pazooka wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 11:12 pm

Shaffer89 wrote: ↑October 28th, 2023, 10:32 pm

Your right, I'm sorry i got upset since I let myself believe there was more to this than there was.

The statements are fine, taking those statements as more truthful than the other statements is what I dont see value in.

So what will you do with these facts when you discover them? Will your publish8ng of these "facts" do more harm or good for the souls of men? It seems like for a seeker of facts you have to use alot of assumptions words like rumor, thought, heard, remembered, and other things that are contrary to facts.

What you have to understand about my perspective is that, for decades, my starting point was that the BofM was God’s truth and I only really saw the data that conformed.

About the souls of men and what does harm or good…what if you were to become aware that there were themes and teachings, explicit and implied, in the BofM that were actually harmful to your soul’s connection with and knowledge of God and the way of happiness and Life? Fear of knowledge goes hand in hand with delusion.

Maybe you could start a new thread about teachings in the Book of Mormon that are harmful to your soul’s connection with and knowledge of God, etc? Or if you’ve already done so, point me to it? Never heard this before.