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Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 3:28 pm
by Pazooka
It seems a lot hinges on this one point.
"With regard to the manuscript of Mr. Spaulding now in the Library of Oberlin College, I have never stated, and know of no one who can state, that it is the only manuscript which Spaulding wrote, or that it is certainly the one which has been supposed to be the original of the Book of Mormon. The discovery of this Ms. does not prove that there may not have been another, which became the basis of the Book of Mormon. The use which has been made of statements emanating from me as implying the contrary of the above is entirely unwarranted.
JAMES H. FAIRCHILD." (President of Oberlin College)


"{Eber D.} Howe, in 1834, published a fair synopsis of the manuscript now at Oberlin and submitted the original to the witnesses who testified to the many points of identity between Spaulding's "Manuscript Found" and the Book of Mormon. These witnesses then (in 1834) recognized the manuscript, secured by Hurlburt and now at Oberlin, as being one of Spaulding's, but not the one which they asserted was similar to the Book of Mormon. They further said that Spaulding had told them that he had altered his original plan of writing by going farther back with his dates and writing in the old Scripture style, in order that his story might appear more ancient." ~ https://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/1901schr.htm

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 3:48 pm
by ithink
Kinderhook
Greek Psalter
The Book of the Dead
The Joseph Smith Translation
Eye of Faith Witnesses
The Book of Commandments
The Book of Mormon

OK, The Book of Mormon
Which one are you referring to?

1835 Edition—2643 Changes
1844 Edition—18 Changes
1845 Edition—36 Changes
1846 Edition—No Changes
1852 Edition—11 Changes
1854 Edition—10 Changes
1876 Edition—2 Changes
1882 Edition—1 Change
1921 Edition—91 Changes

To the most correct book on earth.

OK

"DON'T TRANSLATE AGAIN, BECAUSE WHEN THE PEOPLE SEE THE
DIFFERENCE, THEY WILL NOT BELIEVE MY WORDS”.

bahahahahah

🤡

I've read the BoM 24x.
Can you imagine why?

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 3:54 pm
by Pazooka
Rubicon wrote: October 27th, 2023, 8:39 am I included the following in a handout of supplemental material for a stake/community fireside we did years ago ("Book of Mormon: Fact, or Fiction?"). It was a lengthy handout (large packet) with supplemental items not covered by the presentation (or only lightly covered), like DNA evidence. Sorry about the formatting ---- it didn't copy over well from a Word document. The Q&A stretched until late at night.

I find Spaulding's sexual innuendo in a story written in the Western Reserve in the early 1800s to be interesting.

---

Case Study in Making up Names: The Spaulding Manuscript vs. the Book of Mormon

The names of places and people in the Book of Mormon compare very favorably to what critics used to rely upon as the explanation for its origins: Solomon Spaulding’s “Manuscript Story.” Spaulding wrote a manuscript of a novel dealing with Romans blown off course who landed in North America, and anti-Mormon E.D. Howe bought it from Spaulding’s widow in the hopes that it could be used to discredit the Book of Mormon. When he discovered that it would not serve this purpose, he kept it carefully hidden but continued to spread the rumor that the source of the Book of the Book of Mormon had been found. In 1881, an Ohio printer named L. L. Rice bought Howe’s items (which had been shipped to Hawaii), hoping to find historical material dealing with abolition and slavery. “Manuscript Story” was among his papers, signed on the back and certified by the anti-Mormon committee that had been dispatched to buy it. Rice gave it to James Fairchild, president of Oberlin College, and the Spaulding manuscript now resides there on display.

Of the Spaulding manuscript, Rice said: "Two things are true concerning this manuscript . . . First, it is a genuine writing of Solomon Spaulding, and second, it is not the original of the Book of Mormon . . . It is unlikely that anyone who wrote so elaborate a work as the Mormon Bible [Book of Mormon] would spend his time in getting up so shallow a story as this." President Fairchild noted: "Mr. Rice, myself and others compared it [the Spaulding manuscript] with the Book of Mormon, and could detect no resemblance between the two in general or in detail. There seems to be no name or incident common to the two . . . Some other explanation of the origin of the Book of Mormon must be found . . . I should as soon think the Book of Revelation was written by the author of Don Quixote, as that the writer of this manuscript was the author of the Book of Mormon."

For decades after this, anti-Mormons claimed that the Oberlin manuscript was not the Spaulding story Joseph Smith had used in writing the Book of Mormon, and that he had written a second, longer one with names like Moroni and Nephi. A Wisconsin attorney named Theodore Schroeder moved to Salt Lake City near the turn of the century for the specific purpose of combating Mormonism, and he published a sophisticated and effective series of articles in the American Historical Magazine arguing in favor of this “second lost Spaulding manuscript” theory. Elder B. H. Roberts of the LDS Church wrote a lengthy rebuttal, also published in the American Historical Magazine, that obliterated the Spaulding theories and essentially ended their popularity with critics of Mormonism (except for some few who persist in advocating them, being unwilling to admit any possibility that Joseph Smith was capable of playing any part in the production of the Book of Mormon. The “lost” manuscript theories rely on major roles of people like Sidney Rigdon and Parley P. Pratt before they met Joseph Smith).

It is interesting to compare the names and words found in the Spaulding Manuscript with the vocabulary of the Book of Mormon. None of the above ancient parallels and “bulls-eyes” in the Book of Mormon can be claimed for Spaulding’s story, and the nature of Spaulding’s anachronisms help to place the ones critics focus on in the Book of Mormon in perspective.

A sampling of Spaulding’s prose

“. . . Methinks I could pick out a healthy plum Lass from the copper coloured tribe that by washing and scrubbing her fore & aft & upon the labbord & stabbord sides she would become a wholesome bedfellow.”

“We retired two & two hand in hand — Ladies heads little awri — blushing like the morn & — But I forgot to mention that our society passed a resolution to build a church in the midst of our village.”

“Delawan to chakee poloo
Manegango farwah teloo
Chanepauh lawango chapah
Quinebogan hamboo gowah.”

“Gracious God! How deplorable our situation!”

“Adultery is punished by obliging the culprit to wear a pair of Elkhorns on his shoulders six days & to walk thro’ the city or vilage once each day, at which times the boys are at liberty to pelt him with rotten eggs.”

Words and phrases


Polar star terra firma fish boiled beans clam shell topse turvy

croaking like bullfrogs wigwams buxhum/bucksom common stock wampum

musquetoes toads frogs snails snow coloured Dogs wormwood gawl [sic]

Hope — that Celetial Goddes mamoons cotton (transported from the South)

elk/elkhorn squashes carrots lead porcupines oppossums pencil

laurels tomehauks


Proper names and place names (in order of occurrence, from left to right, top to bottom)

Conneaught Roman Latin America Missisippy Europians Fabius

Rome Constantine Brittain Britan Luian Trojans Jesus Christ Britain

Droll Tom Italy Deliwares September Crito Ieshuran Platonic

Owaho Deliwah Suscowah Owhahon Europe Atlantic

Lucian Asia Egypt Chaldea Ohons Baska Tolanga

Siota Lobaska Sciotans Bombal Kentucks Ohio Hadokam

Hadoram Gamba Ohson Ohians Lambon Labamack

Lambdon Kato Bambo Eri Mishigan Ontario Hamboon

Rambock Talanga Moonrod Elseon Lamesa Helicon

Hambock Lobasca Sambal Labanco Drafolick Hamack

Boakim Hamkol Lakoon Bithawan Gamasko Labano

Habelon Chiango Galanga Ulipoon Michegan Numapon

Glorangus Ramuck Genesco Colorangus Hamock Holiza

Sambol Gambo Labanko Hanock Hamul Taboon

Geheno Ramoff Sabamah Hamelick Rameck Thelford

Hamkien Kelsock Hamkoo Hamko Hakoon Haboon

Ramcoff Nunapon Hemock Lamack
The information above actually suggests that this was not the manuscript supposed to be used as a basis for the BofM according to the following logic:

"The Oberlin manuscript also furnishes internal evidences of an improbability that it was ever submitted to a publisher by any man as sane and well educated as was Spaulding. The plot of the story is incomplete, and the manuscript is full of interlineations, alterations, careless or phonetic spelling, and misused capital letters. These are all easily explainable consistently with Spaulding's erudition, if we view the manuscript as a hasty and careless blocking out of his literary work, but it is not in such a condition as would make him willing to submit it to a publisher." ~ https://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/1901schr.htm

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 3:59 pm
by Rubicon
Pazooka wrote: October 27th, 2023, 3:54 pm

The information above actually suggests that this was not the manuscript supposed to be used as a basis for the BofM according to the following logic:

"The Oberlin manuscript also furnishes internal evidences of an improbability that it was ever submitted to a publisher by any man as sane and well educated as was Spaulding. The plot of the story is incomplete, and the manuscript is full of interlineations, alterations, careless or phonetic spelling, and misused capital letters. These are all easily explainable consistently with Spaulding's erudition, if we view the manuscript as a hasty and careless blocking out of his literary work, but it is not in such a condition as would make him willing to submit it to a publisher." ~ https://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/1901schr.htm
Criddle, et. al. were an anomaly --- Researchers after 2000 who were trying to revive the dead "2nd Spaulding theory" (that the source of the BoM is a lost, extended version that we don't have that used BoM names instead of the absurd names in "Manuscript Story --- Conneaght Creek."

Even as a rough draft, Spaulding's story was . . . bad. Those seeking to hitch their wagons to Spaulding are on a fool's errand.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 4:11 pm
by BeNotDeceived
ithink wrote: October 27th, 2023, 3:48 pm Kinderhook
Greek Psalter
The Book of the Dead
The Joseph Smith Translation
Eye of Faith Witnesses
The Book of Commandments
The Book of Mormon

OK, The Book of Mormon
Which one are you referring to?

1835 Edition—2643 Changes
1844 Edition—18 Changes
1845 Edition—36 Changes

… Can you imagine why?
Michael Sherwin wrote: December 16th, 2020, 5:49 pm
I never said (here on this forum) that the BoM was a false book. What I said was, 'at one time I thought that the BoM was nothing more than a fairytale". Since then the Spirit has shown me some things and had me look up some things in the BoM and I have discovered that much of the BoM is God inspired scripture. But not all of it -- unfortunately. And I do not think that JS is a false prophet. I think he is THE false prophet. And he has snookered a lot of people. The God given mission of JS was to bring the BoM forth. Not to found a church. David Whitmer testified of such things in his book. First Nephi describes a church that will be founded by the devil just after the mother gentiles would gather on land and sea. Almost as soon as this church is founded it will cross the waters to the whole world. They will bring forth a bible (book of scriptures) from among them and that many plain parts of the gospel will be withheld. NONE OF THE DETAILS FIT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. ALL OF THE DETAILS FIT THE LDS CHURCH PERFECTLY. Hidden in plain sight. And after it was revealed to me that JS was indwelt by Satan the Spirit had me look up his birthdate in Stellarium. And what did I find? Saturn (Satan) and Uranus (fallen angel) in Virgo (the earth). There are just way too many "coincidences" of the Spirit (that talks to me) never ever being wrong about anything (I do make mistakes though) that I have no choice but to believe what it says to me. I wanted to believe so badly. I wanted to belong so badly. But, despite what I wanted the Spirit has shown me things that I did not want nor expect. And I cannot help that because the SPIRIT HAS NEVER ONCE BEEN PROVEN TO BE WRONG. NOT ONCE!
That’s why.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 4:20 pm
by kirtland r.m.
ithink wrote: October 27th, 2023, 3:48 pm Kinderhook
Greek Psalter
The Book of the Dead
The Joseph Smith Translation
Eye of Faith Witnesses
The Book of Commandments
The Book of Mormon

OK, The Book of Mormon
Which one are you referring to?

1835 Edition—2643 Changes
1844 Edition—18 Changes
1845 Edition—36 Changes
1846 Edition—No Changes
1852 Edition—11 Changes
1854 Edition—10 Changes
1876 Edition—2 Changes
1882 Edition—1 Change
1921 Edition—91 Changes

To the most correct book on earth.

OK

"DON'T TRANSLATE AGAIN, BECAUSE WHEN THE PEOPLE SEE THE
DIFFERENCE, THEY WILL NOT BELIEVE MY WORDS”.

bahahahahah

🤡

I've read the BoM 24x.
Can you imagine why?
Get a grip ithink. Do you really want to spend a week or so battling over Book of Mormon, and we might as well go there, Bible changes which have been put at over 100,000 last I saw. Do we really need to point out punctuation mark changes, and the Book of Mormon being divided into verses as each a change ect. ect.. I think not (pun intended), but maybe you do.

These "drive by" bomb throwing posts where accusations are made but not given much as far as examples are more than annoying. Oh wait, maybe that is part of the purpose for them.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 5:30 pm
by Dusty Wanderer
The Kinderhook Plates being used as a case study proving Joseph couldn't have supernaturally produced the Book of Mormon is low-informed and logically not applicable **.

** 1.He didn't try to translate under any supernatural medium/method. He used a Hebrew lexicon to try and validate the characters. The only thing we know beyond that is that he never tried to obtain them for further investigation or translation.
** 2. Even if he did claim to have tried supernaturally, which he did not, all that would logically prove is that he had lost his ability to do so.

Any appeal today to the Kinderhook Plates wreaks a little like desperation.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 5:37 pm
by Luke
Dusty Wanderer wrote: October 27th, 2023, 5:30 pm The Kinderhook Plates being used as a case study proving Joseph couldn't have supernaturally produced the Book of Mormon is low-informed and logically not applicable **.

** 1.He didn't try to translate under any supernatural medium/method. He used a Hebrew lexicon to try and validate the characters. The only thing we know beyond that is that he never tried to obtain them for further investigation or translation.
** 2. Even if he did claim to have tried supernaturally, which he did not, all that would logically prove is that he had lost his ability to do so.

Any appeal today to the Kinderhook Plates wreaks a little like desperation.
I think there’s a high chance of the Kinderhook Plates being legit.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 5:58 pm
by Dusty Wanderer
Luke wrote: October 27th, 2023, 5:37 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: October 27th, 2023, 5:30 pm The Kinderhook Plates being used as a case study proving Joseph couldn't have supernaturally produced the Book of Mormon is low-informed and logically not applicable **.

** 1.He didn't try to translate under any supernatural medium/method. He used a Hebrew lexicon to try and validate the characters. The only thing we know beyond that is that he never tried to obtain them for further investigation or translation.
** 2. Even if he did claim to have tried supernaturally, which he did not, all that would logically prove is that he had lost his ability to do so.

Any appeal today to the Kinderhook Plates wreaks a little like desperation.
I think there’s a high chance of the Kinderhook Plates being legit.
Looks like possibly. I was just addressing the specific claim that they weren't, but my "low-informed" reference was a nod to that, amongst other things.

There was a good video on YT going over some convincing evidence about their real origins or the characters' origins that were on them. Anyway, I couldn't find it, my link to it is invalid.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 6:50 pm
by Dusty Wanderer
Luke wrote: October 27th, 2023, 5:37 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: October 27th, 2023, 5:30 pm The Kinderhook Plates being used as a case study proving Joseph couldn't have supernaturally produced the Book of Mormon is low-informed and logically not applicable **.

** 1.He didn't try to translate under any supernatural medium/method. He used a Hebrew lexicon to try and validate the characters. The only thing we know beyond that is that he never tried to obtain them for further investigation or translation.
** 2. Even if he did claim to have tried supernaturally, which he did not, all that would logically prove is that he had lost his ability to do so.

Any appeal today to the Kinderhook Plates wreaks a little like desperation.
I think there’s a high chance of the Kinderhook Plates being legit.
Luke, do you have any links to good info to that point? As I mentioned above, I had a link to something that is now gone.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 7:17 pm
by kirtland r.m.
This is my take on the Kinderhook Plates, which I believe were fake, but curiously had one character which was very similar to ancient Egyptian which drew a little interest, but not much.

Bradley and Ashurst-McGee reveal Joseph Smith was indeed shown the Kinderhook plates and was asked the translate them. In Joseph’s papers we find that he had a copy of a book called Grammer and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language which he consulted to give his secular personal opinion of one lone symbol which was repeated several times on the plates. The Kinderhook plates event was of so little importance to Joseph Smith that he failed to mention the incident in his own journal. Clayton and Pratt and others impulsively and erroneously inferred Joseph’s “interpretation” of the Kinderhook plates as a spiritual rather than a secular event. Don Bradley gives an enjoyable presentation of how it all was discovered. Kudos to Mark Ashurst-McGee and Don Bradley for brilliantly solving the mystery!

There is a moral to this story, Dear Reader, which is…there are a lot of goofy stories out there about Joseph Smith. Don’t be so gullible to believe everything you read/hear. The wisest course of action to maintain is, unless there is a verifiable account written or signed by Joseph Smith, what others said, he said or did, is only pure speculation. https://www.millennialstar.org/the-myst ... es-solved/

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 7:49 pm
by Pazooka
Rubicon wrote: October 27th, 2023, 3:59 pm
Pazooka wrote: October 27th, 2023, 3:54 pm

The information above actually suggests that this was not the manuscript supposed to be used as a basis for the BofM according to the following logic:

"The Oberlin manuscript also furnishes internal evidences of an improbability that it was ever submitted to a publisher by any man as sane and well educated as was Spaulding. The plot of the story is incomplete, and the manuscript is full of interlineations, alterations, careless or phonetic spelling, and misused capital letters. These are all easily explainable consistently with Spaulding's erudition, if we view the manuscript as a hasty and careless blocking out of his literary work, but it is not in such a condition as would make him willing to submit it to a publisher." ~ https://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/1901schr.htm
Criddle, et. al. were an anomaly --- Researchers after 2000 who were trying to revive the dead "2nd Spaulding theory" (that the source of the BoM is a lost, extended version that we don't have that used BoM names instead of the absurd names in "Manuscript Story --- Conneaght Creek."

Even as a rough draft, Spaulding's story was . . . bad. Those seeking to hitch their wagons to Spaulding are on a fool's errand.
What I’m seeing is that there never was a “dead” Spaulding theory…only apologists who were eager for it to be.

We don’t know if the manuscript in the Oberlin collection was an early draft or a different story entirely. But it’s not the only peg holding that tent up either. There were the statements of his family, friends and neighbors. There was his nickname “Old Come-to-Pass.” There were the Mormon missionaries who proselytized in his hometown and heard the stories.

Why is it necessary to call people fools? Do you think it is an effective and persuasive tactic or does it merely make yourself temporarily feel superior? - like a cognitive self-soothing device.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 7:59 pm
by Pazooka
Wolfwoman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 10:52 pm
Pazooka wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:48 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:39 pm I thought the Spaulding manuscript and the Book of Mormon were not even that similar.
A manuscript of Spaulding’s was found among his daughter’s belongings (IIRC) and, when it was discovered to be nothing like the BofM, the RLDS and LDS churches were quick to declare it the manuscript everyone had been describing as having been used to create the BofM even though the University which held it in collection released a statement saying that there was nothing to identify it as such. Spaulding had been a minister and a prolific author.

This is the basis for which LDS apologists declare the matter closed…debunked…destroyed. Most believers are satisfied with that and won’t look under the proverbial rug.
So there’s no other manuscript out there?
If Rigdon had taken Spaulding’s manuscript from the publisher’s office storage and if he and Smith had used the manuscript in the crafting of the BofM, what do you think they would have done with it by the time the BofM was published?

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 8:51 pm
by Pazooka
nightlight wrote: October 27th, 2023, 9:47 am There's three people on this website that make up a good microcosm of why people deny the Book of Mormon imo

You have people like John Tavner who don't believe in the Book of Mormon because there's violence in it. And "God doesn't commit violence." These people look at the Book of Revelation as purely symbolic, that God doesn't use violence, so it has to be that way.

You have people like Pazooka who don't believe in the Book of Mormon because it's claims Jesus Christ

And you have people like Arm Chair Quarterback who don't believe in the Book of Mormon because it would a lend credence to Joseph Smith

(I like all these people...even Pazooka 😜, not attacking them or belittling their beliefs. I respect them , just think they are good representations of a whole. And I'm not saying I know exactly why they don't believe the Book of Mormon. But this is how I perceive it from what I've read about their reservations. 1,000 pardons if I miss represent 😉)


It's God a pacifist?

Is Jesus Christ the Messiah and The God of Israel?

Could Joseph Smith, regardless of his faults, really have translated an ancient Testament of Jesus Christ?

I believe those questions are answered by the Jewish scriptures and Spirit.... And it is unequivocally YES

If the Book of Mormon really happened, who would have an intimate knowledge of it? How would he oppose it? You have to consider the enemy.

I read a lot.... I love fantasy. I love many of the works of the Catholic fathers of old. I love CS Lewis. I love reading historical fiction and fact. Etc

All these things can inspire one to live a more Christ-like life...... But the Book of Mormon reads with the same Spirit that only the words of Christ in the New Testament do. They speak to the soul in a way that cannot be fabricated by a fleshy heart

The Book of Mormon is true. Dead on a hill conviction for me
Nightlight…buddy…you know that if I were ever interrogated I would ask for Cruiserdude to be the good cop and you could totally be the bad cop.

But not only do I feel completely misrepresented by your description of my belief - I feel like that was something of a smear campaign. Can’t we debate the issue rather than resorting to dirty politics?

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 9:49 pm
by kirtland r.m.
This looks like a great place for a group of Book of Mormon editing evidences. Here they are, enjoy.https://evidencecentral.org/evidence-ty ... es/editing

The Book of Mormon is exactly what it proports to be. A gift, and a sparkling Jewel of Eternal hope and Truth.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 10:12 pm
by Wolfwoman
Pazooka wrote: October 27th, 2023, 7:59 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 10:52 pm
Pazooka wrote: October 26th, 2023, 9:48 pm

A manuscript of Spaulding’s was found among his daughter’s belongings (IIRC) and, when it was discovered to be nothing like the BofM, the RLDS and LDS churches were quick to declare it the manuscript everyone had been describing as having been used to create the BofM even though the University which held it in collection released a statement saying that there was nothing to identify it as such. Spaulding had been a minister and a prolific author.

This is the basis for which LDS apologists declare the matter closed…debunked…destroyed. Most believers are satisfied with that and won’t look under the proverbial rug.
So there’s no other manuscript out there?
If Rigdon had taken Spaulding’s manuscript from the publisher’s office storage and if he and Smith had used the manuscript in the crafting of the BofM, what do you think they would have done with it by the time the BofM was published?
Sounds like quite the conspiracy theory.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 27th, 2023, 10:24 pm
by John Tavner
nightlight wrote: October 27th, 2023, 9:47 am There's three people on this website that make up a good microcosm of why people deny the Book of Mormon imo

You have people like John Tavner who don't believe in the Book of Mormon because there's violence in it. And "God doesn't commit violence." These people look at the Book of Revelation as purely symbolic, that God doesn't use violence, so it has to be that way.

You have people like Pazooka who don't believe in the Book of Mormon because it's claims Jesus Christ

And you have people like Arm Chair Quarterback who don't believe in the Book of Mormon because it would a lend credence to Joseph Smith

(I like all these people...even Pazooka 😜, not attacking them or belittling their beliefs. I respect them , just think they are good representations of a whole. And I'm not saying I know exactly why they don't believe the Book of Mormon. But this is how I perceive it from what I've read about their reservations. 1,000 pardons if I miss represent 😉)


It's God a pacifist?

Is Jesus Christ the Messiah and The God of Israel?

Could Joseph Smith, regardless of his faults, really have translated an ancient Testament of Jesus Christ?

I believe those questions are answered by the Jewish scriptures and Spirit.... And it is unequivocally YES

If the Book of Mormon really happened, who would have an intimate knowledge of it? How would he oppose it? You have to consider the enemy.

I read a lot.... I love fantasy. I love many of the works of the Catholic fathers of old. I love CS Lewis. I love reading historical fiction and fact. Etc

All these things can inspire one to live a more Christ-like life...... But the Book of Mormon reads with the same Spirit that only the words of Christ in the New Testament do. They speak to the soul in a way that cannot be fabricated by a fleshy heart

The Book of Mormon is true. Dead on a hill conviction for me
Just to clarify my position, it isn't because there is violence in it. but to give grace to what you are saying, I do beleive we ascribe a lot more to God than what God actually does. As we've discussed beforehand, I believe it is more often that God has given man authority/dominion, and man gives that authority/dominion to Satan, they let him rule in their hearts and much of the destruction is caused by man "reaping" what they sow and Satan. Though again, I"m not saying this to argue with you, just clarifying, I don't feel a need to rehash it with you. Anyways within the BoM, It is the claim that those individuals make in it that God told them to do certain things - for gain/ for items for instance- I take issue that these people claim to be Christians, but don't follow the Way- I believe it causes confusion from the "Way" that Jesus taught. In fact I would be much more likely to believe the book if it just admitted it was an old testament book (which it is) with a bit more knowledge, but instead it seems to proclaim itself as truth superseding the New Testament (according to most mormons, though the book contradicts itself on that in a few ways). It adds confusion to the "Way." In some cases it seems to contradict the pattern set in scriptures and it contradicts teh character of God. That said, I can give a lot of grace to the book if I want to and spend hours justifying things in it, but for a book that is supposed to be "the most correct book" there is way too much leg work in order to make it fit the rest of scripture. That said there are very beautiful portions in the BoM- things that perfectly capture the mercy and love of God, things that fit the Old Testament and New Testament very well. That said, much of hte book is just paraphrases of Old Testametn scripture and New Testament scripture- sometimes with its own spin, which again causes confusion if one doesn't put it in its proper place as something that in theory is only supposed to support the New Testament, and not supersede it.

I used to believe the BoM, I preached from it, I loved it. Then I took a deep dive into the New Testament and old Testament spent a couple years on only those things and as I went back to the BoM I ran into things that were conflicting- a casual reader of the Bible might not catch them (not saying you are a casual reader) but I started really diving into meanings and context and it changed the way I perceived things. I was shocked at how much hte BoM seemed to be paraphrased from the Bible (old and New Testament) That paraprasing is why I think many poeple feel truth, because in many cases they really nailed the interpretation, but in others, it twists it and can create, in my opinion an unbelief in who God is and what His will is concerning us. Anyways, I started to base my understanding of God off of Jesus Christ. In fact the reason I sort of hung onto the BoM for so long was because of Joseph Smith,- I believe he probably saw things, but as time goes on and I learn about historical things that were happening around the same time, the more it seems he might not have been as revelatory as I once believed and trust me when I say I was like Paul defending the BoM and J.Smith. I was the most Mormon of Mormons. History though and hte lies in the beginning of the church caused me to wonder what was true- so many mythological stories related to the "restoration" that were fabrications. The whole "lying for hte Lord" thing, how temple worship came about, not even the endowment but just how we do it for the dead etc.. comments, quotes of GA's, their journal entries etc...At this point I just can't trust the BoM- though like eI said there are very beautiful passages in there. Oh, I also don't believe the Book of Revelations is "purely" symbolic, but through symbolism it is to be interpreted- and our perception of God can make us interpret it in very different ways. I also wouldn't describe God as a pacifist- at least with the negative connotation often ascribed to that word. There is more to it, that is an over simplification and misses out on the heart of God, in my opinion.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 28th, 2023, 8:29 am
by Pazooka
Wolfwoman wrote: October 27th, 2023, 10:12 pm
Pazooka wrote: October 27th, 2023, 7:59 pm
Wolfwoman wrote: October 26th, 2023, 10:52 pm

So there’s no other manuscript out there?
If Rigdon had taken Spaulding’s manuscript from the publisher’s office storage and if he and Smith had used the manuscript in the crafting of the BofM, what do you think they would have done with it by the time the BofM was published?
Sounds like quite the conspiracy theory.
Nice use of the term “conspiracy theory”’s original psychosocially crafted intent.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 28th, 2023, 8:53 am
by ithink
kirtland r.m. wrote: October 27th, 2023, 4:20 pm
ithink wrote: October 27th, 2023, 3:48 pm Kinderhook
Greek Psalter
The Book of the Dead
The Joseph Smith Translation
Eye of Faith Witnesses
The Book of Commandments
The Book of Mormon

OK, The Book of Mormon
Which one are you referring to?

1835 Edition—2643 Changes
1844 Edition—18 Changes
1845 Edition—36 Changes
1846 Edition—No Changes
1852 Edition—11 Changes
1854 Edition—10 Changes
1876 Edition—2 Changes
1882 Edition—1 Change
1921 Edition—91 Changes

To the most correct book on earth.

OK

"DON'T TRANSLATE AGAIN, BECAUSE WHEN THE PEOPLE SEE THE
DIFFERENCE, THEY WILL NOT BELIEVE MY WORDS”.

bahahahahah

🤡

I've read the BoM 24x.
Can you imagine why?
Get a grip ithink. Do you really want to spend a week or so battling over Book of Mormon, and we might as well go there, Bible changes which have been put at over 100,000 last I saw. Do we really need to point out punctuation mark changes, and the Book of Mormon being divided into verses as each a change ect. ect.. I think not (pun intended), but maybe you do.

These "drive by" bomb throwing posts where accusations are made but not given much as far as examples are more than annoying. Oh wait, maybe that is part of the purpose for them.
O I have a grip.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 28th, 2023, 8:53 am
by Wolfwoman
Pazooka wrote: October 28th, 2023, 8:29 am
Wolfwoman wrote: October 27th, 2023, 10:12 pm
Pazooka wrote: October 27th, 2023, 7:59 pm

If Rigdon had taken Spaulding’s manuscript from the publisher’s office storage and if he and Smith had used the manuscript in the crafting of the BofM, what do you think they would have done with it by the time the BofM was published?
Sounds like quite the conspiracy theory.
Nice use of the term “conspiracy theory”’s original psychosocially crafted intent.
You’re saying the Book of Mormon came from an imaginary manuscript. Sorry for not being a believer.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 28th, 2023, 9:05 am
by ithink
Dusty Wanderer wrote: October 27th, 2023, 5:30 pm The Kinderhook Plates being used as a case study proving Joseph couldn't have supernaturally produced the Book of Mormon is low-informed and logically not applicable **.

** 1.He didn't try to translate under any supernatural medium/method. He used a Hebrew lexicon to try and validate the characters. The only thing we know beyond that is that he never tried to obtain them for further investigation or translation.
** 2. Even if he did claim to have tried supernaturally, which he did not, all that would logically prove is that he had lost his ability to do so.

Any appeal today to the Kinderhook Plates wreaks a little like desperation.
Were the K plates were presented to Joseph as ancient writings?
Did Joseph "translate" any part and claim they were a history of the person with whom they were found and that person was a descendant of Ham?
Aye, all that.

But who is Wilbur Fugate, Bridge Whitten, and Robert Wiley?
Who is Sharp?
Who is M. Wilford Poulson?
Welby W. Ricks?
What destructive testing happened in 1981?
What was published on May 22 1844 in the Warsaw Signal?
What is a sequel to the BoM?
And W T F is the "Prophet... prophet?" doing sending for a lexicon and dictionary anyway?
kinderhook.JPG
kinderhook.JPG (144.55 KiB) Viewed 156 times

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 28th, 2023, 9:06 am
by ithink
Luke wrote: October 27th, 2023, 5:37 pm
Dusty Wanderer wrote: October 27th, 2023, 5:30 pm The Kinderhook Plates being used as a case study proving Joseph couldn't have supernaturally produced the Book of Mormon is low-informed and logically not applicable **.

** 1.He didn't try to translate under any supernatural medium/method. He used a Hebrew lexicon to try and validate the characters. The only thing we know beyond that is that he never tried to obtain them for further investigation or translation.
** 2. Even if he did claim to have tried supernaturally, which he did not, all that would logically prove is that he had lost his ability to do so.

Any appeal today to the Kinderhook Plates wreaks a little like desperation.
I think there’s a high chance of the Kinderhook Plates being legit.
😆🙄😂

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 28th, 2023, 9:09 am
by Pazooka
Wolfwoman wrote: October 28th, 2023, 8:53 am
Pazooka wrote: October 28th, 2023, 8:29 am
Wolfwoman wrote: October 27th, 2023, 10:12 pm

Sounds like quite the conspiracy theory.
Nice use of the term “conspiracy theory”’s original psychosocially crafted intent.
You’re saying the Book of Mormon came from an imaginary manuscript. Sorry for not being a believer.
Maybe let’s explore this concept of “imaginary” things on which one forms a basis for faith.

WHITMER'S WONDERFUL "EYE OF FAITH."

The following is an extract from a letter written by E. S. Gilbert to Mrs. Ellen E. Dickinson:

Canaseraga, N. Y., Aug. 1, 1880.

Mrs. Ellen E. Dickinson.
Dear Madam: Your interesting paper in Scribner, entitled "The Book of Mormon," has recalled the following anecdote to my mind, related by my aunt, Mrs. Orill Fuller, who was converted to the Mormon faith in the first days, and emigrated from this State to join the Mormon congregation located, I think, at Kirtland, Ohio.

It appears that a certificate or affidavit, signed by three witnesses -- David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris -- was appended to the "Book of Mormon" to this effect: "We, the undersigned, have seen and hefted the book of Plates," etc. Arrived at her destination, my aunt became acquainted with David Whitmer, who lived there; and wishing to be edified by the account of a reliable eye-witness concerning the appearance and peculiarities of the wonderful plates, she took early opportunity to converse with him on the subject, when, to her amazement, the veracious Whitmer assured her that he had never seen them.

"Suppose," said he, "that you had a friend whose character was such that you knew it impossible that he should lie; then if he described a city to you which you had never seen, could you not by the eye of faith, see the city just as he described it?" She answered, that however that might be, the certificate attached to the Mormon Bible had given rise to the belief that the three witnesses half actually seen and handled the book of plates.

(Signed) E. S. GILBERT.


Mrs. Fuller did not remain there long, but renounced Mormonism and went West.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 28th, 2023, 9:39 am
by Rubicon
I'm gone all day today, but Ellen Dickinson, Mrs. McKinstrey, Patterson and Lambdin in Pittsburgh, all of these witnesses brought to bear in favor of a missing, longer, Book of Mormonish Spaulding manuscript all came out *after* it was found in Howe's papers in Hawaii. The Howe/Hurlbut witnesses only described what was found, and these new witnesses only came out of he woodwork when it became clear that Spaulding's story wasn't the source.

There is good reason why Howe kept it hidden and never published it. It had more value as hypothetical potential.

Re: Sidney Rigdon and the Book of Mormon

Posted: October 28th, 2023, 9:58 am
by Pazooka
Rubicon wrote: October 28th, 2023, 9:39 am I'm gone all day today, but Ellen Dickinson, Mrs. McKinstrey, Patterson and Landon in Pittsburgh, all of these witnesses brought to bear in favor of a missing, longer, Book of Mormonish Spaulding manuscript all came out *after* it was found in Howe's papers in Hawaii. The Howe/Gurl it witnesses only described what was found, and these new witnesses only came out of he woodwork when it became clear that Spaulding's story wasn't the source.

There is good reason why Howe kept it hidden and never published it. It had more value as hypothetical potential.
This is turning into quite a conspiracy since even ambivalent publisher and prominent politician, Thurlow Weed, is involved, saying he was approached by JS in 1825 about publishing the BofM. But, you know…we don't have written record of it until 1881, so it must not be true.

https://catalogue.swanngalleries.com/Lo ... No=695065