Is John the Revelator the "DS"?

[LDS Physician]

My question arises from D&C 77:14 ...

"14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?

A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things."

I claim to know nothing because "the servant" we've talked about so much is hidden, at least for now.

[MikeMaillet]

My question arises from D&C 77:14 ...

"14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?

A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things."

I claim to know nothing because "the servant" we've talked about so much is hidden, at least for now.

I think that John is the DS and feel the same as you regarding the Servant being hidden.

Mike

[Juliet]

Immortality would not be a bad pre-requisite before receiving the calling.

[Telavian]

There are very likely multiple people who have multiple responsibilities. John, the 3 Nephites, Joseph, Hyrum, Adam.

I don't think there is a single person who is going to do it all.
D&C 101 and 103 mentions Joseph is going to cast down the enemies tower and restore the vineyard. I have no idea how that is going to look, but I doubt it is all behind the scenes.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The Nemenhah Records suggest that John will play a vital role in revealing truth in our day and gathering the true House of Israel. When I read the passage the first time I thought that the role of the DS fit the description.

[MikeMaillet]

Immortality would not be a bad pre-requisite before receiving the calling.

I try to imagine all of the things that John, the Three Nephites and others have seen and witnessed during this time, not just in our world but also in heavenly realms.

Mike

[Robin Hood]

My question arises from D&C 77:14 ...

"14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?

A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things."

I claim to know nothing because "the servant" we've talked about so much is hidden, at least for now.

Certainly sounds like it could be.

[BuriedTartaria]

I think he is certainly an important figure in end times events.

[TheDuke]

I don 't really see any thing that says John the Revelator is John the apostle. Most feel he isn't. I don't know. I don't see him being the DS. My understanding is he is a "recorder" and keeps the books. Which BTW Joseph says is the key to sealing power (obtaining the PH, performing the ordinances, and recording on earth and in heaven). Seems like John is the one who makes earthly recordings eternal.

I don't see him as the warrior that slays the enemy, like Mormon or Moroni or Capt Moroni. I see the DS as the arm or sword of Christ in his return. I.e. the earthly/mortal man doing the physical opposition to the anti-Christ and his literal, physical armies. At least that is how I see Isaiah by Gileadi's interpretation. Personally, I have had zero revelation on the topic, only some impressions on the overall tribulations to come.

Seems according to the scriptures the tribulations begin in the LDS FF and continue 42 months before going public. when did they start? Did it occur with the eclipse? If we could find that post, then we could compute the second coming with accuracy?

[LDS Physician]

I think the 7 year tribulation starts when the AC establishes the peace treaty ... the second half of which happens when he desecrates the temple in Jerusalem, sparking off the "wrath" portion or "great" portion of the tribulation.

[BeNotDeceived]

My question arises from D&C 77:14 ...

"14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?

A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things."

I claim to know nothing because "the servant" we've talked about so much is hidden, at least for now.

Genuine Curiosity was the stated plan.

[Juliet]

There are very likely multiple people who have multiple responsibilities. John, the 3 Nephites, Joseph, Hyrum, Adam.

I don't think there is a single person who is going to do it all.
D&C 101 and 103 mentions Joseph is going to cast down the enemies tower and restore the vineyard. I have no idea how that is going to look, but I doubt it is all behind the scenes.

I agree. I think a lot of people were given important missions for this mortality and when they try to understand what those missions are, the mind grabs hold of titles because it feels as important as their mission feels. It's the brain's way of trying to understand what one's mission is in words. But in God's Kingdom, you don't need a title to be considered important. You could be accomplishing a very important role in God's work even if you are not the Davidic Servant, etc. It takes an army.

[abijah]

There's an eastern orthodox podcast called "Counsel of God" that did a deep dive on the Book of Revelation that posited the idea that possibly whenever John is presented as speaking with the unspecified "elder" (there are these weird breaks in the narrative where John has dialogue with an unidentified spiritual being), that he is actually talking to himself.



big plot twist, if true, lol

gg, satan?

[Shawn Henry]

Keep in mind, Section 77 is an 1876 addition to the D&C and it doesn't seem to be congruent with the rest of scripture.

[ransomme]

Keep in mind, Section 77 is an 1876 addition to the D&C and it doesn't seem to be congruent with the rest of scripture.

They had lots of documents and unpublished revelations and whatnot. Remember they were *not supposed to publish many or all of them, but they did anyway.

You need to look at other things to see if it is authentic such as if there are surviving supporting documents, when was the revelation received, good witnesses, etc.

Section 77 is reported as being from 1832 so it may be valid.

[kirtland r.m.]

Elder Heber C. Kimball recorded an appearance of John in the Kirtland Temple:

“When the Prophet Joseph had finished the endowments of the First Presidency, the Twelve and the Presiding Bishops, the First Presidency proceeded to lay hands upon each one of them to seal and confirm the anointing; and at the close of each blessing the whole of the quorums responded to it with a loud shout of Hosanna! Hosanna! etc.

“While these things were being attended to the beloved disciple John was seen in our midst by the Prophet Joseph, Oliver Cowdery and others.” (In Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, pp. 91–92.)

[ransomme]

My question arises from D&C 77:14 ...

"14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?

A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things."

I claim to know nothing because "the servant" we've talked about so much is hidden, at least for now.

D&C 77:9-11,14
9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse? A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he (John see v.14) to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.
10 Q. What time are the things spoken of in this chapter (Rev. 7) to be accomplished? A. They are to be accomplished in the sixth thousand years, or the opening of the sixth seal.
11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe? A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.
14 What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation? A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things. (fulfilling His covenants with the people of Israel (Ether 4:15-17))

D&C 7
1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.
5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.
6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.
7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.
8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired.

D&C 27
6 And also with Elias, to whom I have committed the keys of bringing to pass the restoration of all things spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began, concerning the last days;
12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;
13 Unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times, in the which I will gather together in one all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;


JST Matthew 11:13-16
Matt 11:13 But the days will come when the violent shall have no power; for all the prophets and the law prophesied that it should be thus until John.
Matt 11:14 Yea, as many as have prophesied have foretold of these days.
Matt 11:15 And if ye will receive it, verily, he was the Elias, who was for to come and prepare all things.
Matt 11:16 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

JST Matthew 17:13-14
Matt 17:13 But I say unto you, Who is Elias? Behold, this is Elias, whom I send to prepare the way before me.
Matt 17:14 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist, and also of another, who should come and restore all things, as it is written by the prophets.

D&C 113:1-6
1 Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of in the 1st, 2d, 3d, 4th, and 5th verses of the 11th chapter of Isaiah? 2 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is Christ.
3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?
4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.
5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter? 6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

JST John 1
John 1:20 And this is the record of John (the Baptist) when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
John 1:21 And he confessed and denied not that he was Elias, but confessed, saying, I am not the Christ.
John 1:22 And they asked him, saying, How then art thou Elias? And he said, I am not that Elias who was to restore all things. And they asked him, saying, Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
John 1:23 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
John 1:24 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as saith the prophet Esaias.

[FrankOne]

I think the 7 year tribulation starts when the AC establishes the peace treaty ... the second half of which happens when he desecrates the temple in Jerusalem, sparking off the "wrath" portion or "great" portion of the tribulation.

just a guess that I've gone off of is that the peace treaty is in the middle of the tribulation. Multi continent War->economic collapse->treaty.

Treaty is broken and WWIII resumes with invasion of the U.S. (of course this little prediction omits all natural calamities, plagues etc)

all total guesses and could change at any time.

[FrankOne]

My question arises from D&C 77:14 ...

"14 Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?

A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things."

I claim to know nothing because "the servant" we've talked about so much is hidden, at least for now.

D&C 77:9-11,14
9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse? A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he (John see v.14) to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.
10 Q. What time are the things spoken of in this chapter (Rev. 7) to be accomplished? A. They are to be accomplished in the sixth thousand years, or the opening of the sixth seal.
11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe? A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.
14 What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation? A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things. (fulfilling His covenants with the people of Israel (Ether 4:15-17))

D&C 7
1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.
5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.
6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.
7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.
8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired.

D&C 27
6 And also with Elias, to whom I have committed the keys of bringing to pass the restoration of all things spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began, concerning the last days;
12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;
13 Unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times, in the which I will gather together in one all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;


JST Matthew 11:13-16
Matt 11:13 But the days will come when the violent shall have no power; for all the prophets and the law prophesied that it should be thus until John.
Matt 11:14 Yea, as many as have prophesied have foretold of these days.
Matt 11:15 And if ye will receive it, verily, he was the Elias, who was for to come and prepare all things.
Matt 11:16 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

JST Matthew 17:13-14
Matt 17:13 But I say unto you, Who is Elias? Behold, this is Elias, whom I send to prepare the way before me.
Matt 17:14 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist, and also of another, who should come and restore all things, as it is written by the prophets.

D&C 113:1-6
1 Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of in the 1st, 2d, 3d, 4th, and 5th verses of the 11th chapter of Isaiah? 2 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is Christ.
3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?
4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.
5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter? 6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

JST John 1
John 1:20 And this is the record of John (the Baptist) when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
John 1:21 And he confessed and denied not that he was Elias, but confessed, saying, I am not the Christ.
John 1:22 And they asked him, saying, How then art thou Elias? And he said, I am not that Elias who was to restore all things. And they asked him, saying, Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
John 1:23 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
John 1:24 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as saith the prophet Esaias.

Thanks for taking the time to put that all together. Compelling.

[Shawn Henry]

Section 77 is reported as being from 1832 so it may be valid.

And what if Joseph was praying one 1832 morning and said. "Lord test me with a false revelation that I may get better at discerning them" and he got it and put it in his drawer. There's no chain of custody.

You're right it could be true, but I still have 3 strikes against it.
1. Joseph never claimed it and never published, BY did.
2. It fails the Law of Witnesses
3. It seems inconsistent with the rest of scripture.

[ransomme]

Section 77 is reported as being from 1832 so it may be valid.

And what if Joseph was praying one 1832 morning and said. "Lord test me with a false revelation that I may get better at discerning them" and he got it and put it in his drawer. There's no chain of custody.

You're right it could be true, but I still have 3 strikes against it.
1. Joseph never claimed it and never published, BY did.
2. It fails the Law of Witnesses
3. It seems inconsistent with the rest of scripture.

Yeah understood.

Although, I think my post above shows that it is arguably consistent with the rest of scripture.

[Robin Hood]

I don 't really see any thing that says John the Revelator is John the apostle. Most feel he isn't. I don't know. I don't see him being the DS. My understanding is he is a "recorder" and keeps the books. Which BTW Joseph says is the key to sealing power (obtaining the PH, performing the ordinances, and recording on earth and in heaven). Seems like John is the one who makes earthly recordings eternal.

I don't see him as the warrior that slays the enemy, like Mormon or Moroni or Capt Moroni. I see the DS as the arm or sword of Christ in his return. I.e. the earthly/mortal man doing the physical opposition to the anti-Christ and his literal, physical armies. At least that is how I see Isaiah by Gileadi's interpretation. Personally, I have had zero revelation on the topic, only some impressions on the overall tribulations to come.

Seems according to the scriptures the tribulations begin in the LDS FF and continue 42 months before going public. when did they start? Did it occur with the eclipse? If we could find that post, then we could compute the second coming with accuracy?

I'd never considered that. Always assumed the apostle and the revelator were the same John.
I'll have to do some reading.

[ransomme]

I don 't really see any thing that says John the Revelator is John the apostle. Most feel he isn't. I don't know. I don't see him being the DS. My understanding is he is a "recorder" and keeps the books. Which BTW Joseph says is the key to sealing power (obtaining the PH, performing the ordinances, and recording on earth and in heaven). Seems like John is the one who makes earthly recordings eternal.

I don't see him as the warrior that slays the enemy, like Mormon or Moroni or Capt Moroni. I see the DS as the arm or sword of Christ in his return. I.e. the earthly/mortal man doing the physical opposition to the anti-Christ and his literal, physical armies. At least that is how I see Isaiah by Gileadi's interpretation. Personally, I have had zero revelation on the topic, only some impressions on the overall tribulations to come.

Seems according to the scriptures the tribulations begin in the LDS FF and continue 42 months before going public. when did they start? Did it occur with the eclipse? If we could find that post, then we could compute the second coming with accuracy?

I'd never considered that. Always assumed the apostle and the revelator were the same John.
I'll have to do some reading.

Well D&C clearly says that John the Beloved is John the Revelator. See my post above for some links between them.

It is fitting perhaps that David means beloved.

[InfoWarrior82]

Yeah I think it's him.

[Lynn]

In the days ahead, you will find that the author (or revealer) of the vision penned/written in "the Book of Revelation" was John the Baptist. Of which, was Elijah/Elias back in the flesh (sackcloth/new wineskin).

John the Beloved was more like a road manager, setting up where Jesus went, to help keep the Master safe (as best as possible), but not a seer. In the AG, Jesus refers to John the Baptist as the very same Elijah who walked straight into the heavenly realm without tasting death. and the greatest of the seers.

Clues abound in the definitions of Beloved & also Divine. Divine actually refers to one's seership if you look at extensive dictionary meanings. John the Baptist was also well beloved. And the "servant" is also referred to as the "apostle". In the Book of Mormon, it specifies that the vision was granted to one of the 12 apostles. In the days after the resurrection, Judas had committed suicide. There were only 11 apostles at that moment. Legends have come down stating there was a 12th member there- John the Baptist participated invisibly.

But it is interesting to note that despite Simon Peter's (Petros) shortcomings, Jesus refers to him as a Cephas which means seer. However, it was not too apparent in that day or era. But in the present, he has definitely proved out as a seer, from what he has revealed. Simon Petros was boisterous back then. Today, he carries those traits somewhat today, yet he comprehends much better..

Paul Solomon, in his Readings PSR # 1560 & 1567 (two snips in Paul's 1994 biography by W. Alexander Wheeler- 'The Prophetic Revelations of Paul Solomon') describe three to come- Paul, the apostle Peter, and John (Pineal/Piniel), of which Paul Solomon noted he had been Paul (Saul) the apostle & soon his work was completed for this current time. (Paul Solomon was injured rescuing a child in Thailand from slavery, and died in 1994 due to those injuries. Paul was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993 for his efforts to free enslaved children in Thailand.

I'll stop there for now.