If the Standard Works are the Standard, Why is Our Curriculum Focused on the Words of the Modern Prophets?

[Reluctant Watchman]

The scriptures cannot be "trumped". God's word in them says that he does not vary from that which he says, neither to the left or the right. Why give an Iron Rod and command all to hold fast to it, just to trump it with something else?

You do recognize that "scripture" is also not perfect, right? Men's perspectives and opinions still creep in, and that's to say nothing of the Constantine era of translation and editing.

[Seed Starter]

Because the church literally teaches that their words, the words of a “living prophet”, are more important than the scriptures. They are in a category all their own. In same ways, they are the “living” law. To leaders and members, they are scripture incarnate.

Can you provide me a source or two to show that they "literally" teach this? That would be interesting, and I know you're a wealth of information on sources like that.

Benson’s 14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophet. These are all very… “special”

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second:The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter—temporal or spiritual.

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the first presidency—follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

"Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly."

RMN: Hold my Gandhi-King-Mandela Peace Prize...

[4Joshua8]

Can you provide me a source or two to show that they "literally" teach this? That would be interesting, and I know you're a wealth of information on sources like that.

Benson’s 14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophet. These are all very… “special”

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second:The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter—temporal or spiritual.

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the first presidency—follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

"Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly."

RMN: Hold my Gandhi-King-Mandela Peace Prize...

…

[Mindfields]

"That is why we should not seek to use the words of past prophets to dismiss the teachings of living prophets."

The very fact that they're different ought to at a minimum give you pause...

[randyps]

if scripture is all u have to claim allegiance to god and jesus i commend u but also pray that u eventually develop a personal relationship that trump the words of others (aka scriptures)

The scriptures cannot be "trumped". God's word in them says that he does not vary from that which he says, neither to the left or the right. Why give an Iron Rod and command all to hold fast to it, just to trump it with something else?

Moses: "God said, thou shalt not kill!...look I wrote it down for you!"

God: "Nephi, Kill Laban!...but, ah, everyone else follow what I told Moses"

Looks like a trump card to me.

Scriptures are great and exactly what is needed for a race of humans that are trying to follow God, but scriptures alone is why we have thousands of churchs that cant agree with one another. Living Prophets and the Holy Ghost are additional guides to help us develop a personal relationship with Jesus and God. Nephi had scriptures but he wouldnt have made it to the promised land without a living prophet, his father Lehi.

We have a living prophet today and Im here to testify that with what the scriptures have done to preserve Gods word along with the restoration of the fulness of his gospel by living prophets...you and I have a quarantee path to the celestial kingdom if we simply check off the boxes and allow Jesus to do his thing. He promises us, its covenant.

[Thinker]

Can you imagine the discontent if a man gave a lesson in combined priesthood/womens using the New Testament as a basis of laying out a woman’s role toward her husband? Or a GC talk?

I sure can.

So is the argument that we shouldn't use the standards if we know it's bad for business?

That's actually quite a pithy little statement that packs quite a punch, isn't it? Pretty reflective of what's going on in the world, in my opinion.

Yeah I think that answers your question.

The standards are and always will be called “standard works” but in reality, they’re peripheral, heavily cherry picked. The standard works contain things that both leaders and members don’t like… and any such unchanging old standard does NOT put mind control in the hands of church leaders… so, it’s easier and more comfortable for both to SAY they are standard works, while actually making church leaders above standard works and even above God.

[Thinker]

Moses: "God said, thou shalt not kill!...look I wrote it down for you!"

God: "Nephi, Kill Laban!...but, ah, everyone else follow what I told Moses"

Looks like a trump card to me.

Scriptures are great and exactly what is needed for a race of humans that are trying to follow God, but scriptures alone is why we have thousands of churchs that cant agree with one another. Living Prophets and the Holy Ghost are additional guides to help us develop a personal relationship with Jesus and God. Nephi had scriptures but he wouldnt have made it to the promised land without a living prophet, his father Lehi.

We have a living prophet today and Im here to testify that with what the scriptures have done to preserve Gods word along with the restoration of the fulness of his gospel by living prophets...you and I have a quarantee path to the celestial kingdom if we simply check off the boxes and allow Jesus to do his thing. He promises us, its covenant.

Profits do insanely immoral mental gymnastics for us to justify mass murders right after God commanded “Thou shalt not kill”???

[ransomme]

I understand your frustration.

I guess my logical brain doesn't understand:

IF the standard works are the standard
And IF the prophets aren't adding to the canon, but are just repeating what's already in there
Then WHY do I need to listen to the words of the prophets? Wouldn't I be better served just going straight to the source, and making sure there was no room for error?

I'm hoping people can help me work through this one - I don't have any answers, but the question was forcibly impressed upon my mind awhile back, and I haven't been able to answer it for myself satisfactorily.

Maybe it's just my engineering brain and the idea that you don't reference anything but the standards when you're working inside a certain discipline. That's why they're the standard.

They want their commentary on holy writ to be what members cling to. They can't produce their own.

Okay, but that's illogical, right?

It's the same problem the Jews had, if I understand things correctly. God had given them the Pentateuch, and then along came all these men who wanted to add their commentary, and then over time, the commentary became as or more important than the word of God.

I don't know why I don't feel settled on this one. The argument seems tight, but it's like I'm missing something that makes me reticent to form a final conclusion.

Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the conversation.

That's perfect, perfectly accurate.

[buffalo_girl]

How would we, as righteous "people of the church of Christ be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep [us] continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who [is] the author and the finisher of [our] faith"*, IF all communication - including travel - was to fail, (e.g., EMP), thus absolutely cutting us off from the 'words of those called to be Christ's mouthpiece' in far away SLC? * Moroni 6:4

Moroni 6 is only 9 verses. I'll include them below. This chapter gives me confidence in the ability of ordinary, thoroughly righteous "people of the church of Christ...to meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 6?lang=eng

Moroni - Chapter 6

1 And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.

2 Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.

3 And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.

4 And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.

5 And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls.

6 And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus.

7 And they were strict to observe that there should be no iniquity among them; and whoso was found to commit iniquity, and three witnesses of the church did condemn them before the elders, and if they repented not, and confessed not, their names were blotted out, and they were not numbered among the people of Christ.

8 But as oft as they repented and sought forgiveness, with real intent, they were forgiven.

9 And their meetings were conducted by the church after the manner of the workings of the Spirit, and by the power of the Holy Ghost; for as the power of the Holy Ghost led them whether to preach, or to exhort, or to pray, or to supplicate, or to sing, even so it was done.

It doesn't appear to me that these people waited with bated breath for 'the Prophet' to tell them what to do or say. They were universally of one mind and one spirit through the gift and "the power of the Holy Ghost" v. 9.

In Moroni Chapter 7, Moroni presents further instruction on how to discern between "truth and error" in the church...
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 7?lang=eng

[Shawn Henry]

You do recognize that "scripture" is also not perfect, right? Men's perspectives and opinions still creep in, and that's to say nothing of the Constantine era of translation and editing.

I'm not referring to what men call scripture, but to what has been through the hands of a prophet/abridger like Mormon. Mormon could have summarized Paul's non-sensical style of writing into less than 5 chapters.

[Shawn Henry]

Moses: "God said, thou shalt not kill!...look I wrote it down for you!"

God: "Nephi, Kill Laban!...but, ah, everyone else follow what I told Moses"

Looks like a trump card to me.

Only because you are looking at it wrong. You can't attribute Nephi killing Laban to God.

You can read a thread I started about that here: viewtopic.php?t=68798

The Lord didn't bring you back to church to simply follow the prophet. He brought you back so you could learn to discern when to follow and not follow. He probably was specifically testing you to see how you would react to an alleged prophet telling his followers to take a death jab.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Only because you are looking at it wrong. You can't attribute Nephi killing Laban to God.

You can attribute it to the voice of the Spirit. Quoting other scripture is fine, but simply quoting Nephi's own words and experience w/ Laban is sufficient. If this isn't God, then I don't know what is.


———
10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

[4Joshua8]

if scripture is all u have to claim allegiance to god and jesus i commend u but also pray that u eventually develop a personal relationship that trump the words of others (aka scriptures)

The scriptures cannot be "trumped". God's word in them says that he does not vary from that which he says, neither to the left or the right. Why give an Iron Rod and command all to hold fast to it, just to trump it with something else?

Moses: "God said, thou shalt not kill!...look I wrote it down for you!"

God: "Nephi, Kill Laban!...but, ah, everyone else follow what I told Moses"

Looks like a trump card to me.

Most translations have it as "murder", not "kill". "Murder" better captures its meaning.

Check out the 1828 dictionary definitions for kill and murder. They're very different from one another.

[Shawn Henry]

Only because you are looking at it wrong. You can't attribute Nephi killing Laban to God.

You can attribute it to the voice of the Spirit. Quoting other scripture is fine, but simply quoting Nephi's own words and experience w/ Laban is sufficient. If this isn't God, then I don't know what is.


———
10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

He obviously thought it was the Lord's spirit but that doesn't mean it was. There are many spirits out there and as Michael Heiser points out, the Bible teaches that within the elohim are many lesser gods who are the gods over the table of nations, with Jehovah being over the House of Israel. These lesser gods are hard to distinguish from the real God, at least from our perspective. The Bible has many examples of righteous men not being able to tell the difference.

You are also still left with the fact of what the Lord says about Nephi killing Laban in section 98. That section incriminates Nephi.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Only because you are looking at it wrong. You can't attribute Nephi killing Laban to God.

You can attribute it to the voice of the Spirit. Quoting other scripture is fine, but simply quoting Nephi's own words and experience w/ Laban is sufficient. If this isn't God, then I don't know what is.


———
10 And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him.

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.

14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise.

He obviously thought it was the Lord's spirit but that doesn't mean it was. There are many spirits out there and as Michael Heiser points out, the Bible teaches that within the elohim are many lesser gods who are the gods over the table of nations, with Jehovah being over the House of Israel. These lesser gods are hard to distinguish from the real God, at least from our perspective. The Bible has many examples of righteous men not being able to tell the difference.

You are also still left with the fact of what the Lord says about Nephi killing Laban in section 98. That section incriminates Nephi.

So there was another way to get the Brass Plates? Per their laws, Nephi was fully justified in killing Laban, but even that wouldn't have been enough. It was only the prompting of the Spirit. And yes, I would strongly argue that it was, and not some indigestion or thoughts of his own.

[Shawn Henry]

So there was another way to get the Brass Plates? Per their laws, Nephi was fully justified in killing Laban, but even that wouldn't have been enough. It was only the prompting of the Spirit. And yes, I would strongly argue that it was, and not some indigestion or thoughts of his own.

How the hell do you get "indigestion" or "his own thoughts" from what I wrote? You're killing me today, Doug. That's a pathetic straw man.

Whether there was another way to get the plates or that the law justifies him have little to do with the law of war in section 98. The law of war in that section does not acquit Nephi. You can argue that he received this law after the fact, but that would still mean that God had Nephi violate his own law and God does not do that. The spirit could not have been the Lord's spirit.

[Reluctant Watchman]

So there was another way to get the Brass Plates? Per their laws, Nephi was fully justified in killing Laban, but even that wouldn't have been enough. It was only the prompting of the Spirit. And yes, I would strongly argue that it was, and not some indigestion or thoughts of his own.

How the hell do you get "indigestion" or "his own thoughts" from what I wrote? You're killing me today, Doug. That's a pathetic straw man.

Whether there was another way to get the plates or that the law justifies him have little to do with the law of war in section 98. The law of war in that section does not acquit Nephi. You can argue that he received this law after the fact, but that would still mean that God had Nephi violate his own law and God does not do that. The spirit could not have been the Lord's spirit.

You like to use the word "hell." I do too on occasion.

[Shawn Henry]

You like to use the word "hell." I do too on occasion.

Intellectually withdrawing?

[Luke]

So there was another way to get the Brass Plates? Per their laws, Nephi was fully justified in killing Laban, but even that wouldn't have been enough. It was only the prompting of the Spirit. And yes, I would strongly argue that it was, and not some indigestion or thoughts of his own.

How the hell do you get "indigestion" or "his own thoughts" from what I wrote? You're killing me today, Doug. That's a pathetic straw man.

Whether there was another way to get the plates or that the law justifies him have little to do with the law of war in section 98. The law of war in that section does not acquit Nephi. You can argue that he received this law after the fact, but that would still mean that God had Nephi violate his own law and God does not do that. The spirit could not have been the Lord's spirit.

You like to use the word "hell." I do too on occasion.

I use it all the time — in England it’s not taboo like it is in the States.

[Reluctant Watchman]

You like to use the word "hell." I do too on occasion.

Intellectually withdrawing?

No, I just don't agree with your assumptions.

[Shawn Henry]

No, I just don't agree with your assumptions.

Consider that data first, then make conclusions. You have your mind made up and you haven't even read section 98 to see how it applies, have you?

[Reluctant Watchman]

No, I just don't agree with your assumptions.

Consider that data first, then make conclusions. You have your mind made up and you haven't even read section 98 to see how it applies, have you?

Nephi felt compelled to do it. I fully believe based on what we know of the circumstances that you are looking to accuse him with scripture that doesn't apply. It seems a bit disingenuous to pull a quote from section 98 and condemn Nephi based on a section of D&C. If you want to bind yourself to everything D&C preaches, then you also have to swallow all of 132 as valid doctrine.

[MikeMaillet]

Wondering what people's thoughts are regarding this.

I have five children. They get very little scriptural instruction while at Church.

Why is this? The standard works are still the standard, right?

If these men wanted to, they could add their works to the standard works - so why don't they try?

Strange, isn't it?

I joined the church in 1979 at the age of 21and still very wet behind the ears. I remember looking forward to going to the Priesthood lessons because of all the crusty old men that would argue points of doctrine and then a few minutes before the end of the lesson they would all hug and shake hands, many of them with tears in their eyes. I learned quite a bit back then and was motivated to study the lesson material before the lesson so that I could follow. Who ever thought that church could be fun?! Now it's all this namby-pamby BS from some GA's boring talk about the words of another boring GA... The only word that comes to mind for this French Canadian is, Tabarnac!

My children are grown up but I do empathize strongly with your situation. I guess the only answer is home school.

Mike

[Shawn Henry]

Nephi felt compelled to do it. I fully believe based on what we know of the circumstances that you are looking to accuse him with scripture that doesn't apply. It seems a bit disingenuous to pull a quote from section 98 and condemn Nephi based on a section of D&C. If you want to bind yourself to everything D&C preaches, then you also have to swallow all of 132 as valid doctrine.

What B.S.

You can't equate 132 with the rest of the D&C. Why don't you just admit to being unwilling to read 98. If you don't find it revelatory, that's fine. If you do, it definitely singles out Nephi.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Nephi felt compelled to do it. I fully believe based on what we know of the circumstances that you are looking to accuse him with scripture that doesn't apply. It seems a bit disingenuous to pull a quote from section 98 and condemn Nephi based on a section of D&C. If you want to bind yourself to everything D&C preaches, then you also have to swallow all of 132 as valid doctrine.

What B.S.

You can't equate 132 with the rest of the D&C. Why don't you just admit to being unwilling to read 98. If you don't find it revelatory, that's fine. If you do, it definitely singles out Nephi.

Why do you assume I didn't read 98? I did. I call your BS and see it as HS. You could take any number of scriptures and pit them against any number of examples in scripture. All it means is you've expressed an opinion, congratulations!