If the Standard Works are the Standard, Why is Our Curriculum Focused on the Words of the Modern Prophets?

[4Joshua8]

Can you imagine the discontent if a man gave a lesson in combined priesthood/womens using the New Testament as a basis of laying out a woman’s role toward her husband? Or a GC talk?

I sure can.

So is the argument that we shouldn't use the standard if we know it's bad for business?

No, that’s not my argument. In my life I do use the scriptures, even when not presenting a popular truth. I’m just giving a possible reason they aren’t used in church: they don’t have popular teachings. The general conference talks, on the other hand, try not to offend anybody (but somehow end up offending everybody…lol).

[endlessQuestions]

Can you imagine the discontent if a man gave a lesson in combined priesthood/womens using the New Testament as a basis of laying out a woman’s role toward her husband? Or a GC talk?

I sure can.

So is the argument that we shouldn't use the standard if we know it's bad for business?

No, that’s not my argument. In my life I do use the scriptures, even when not presenting a popular truth. I’m just giving a possible reason they aren’t used in church: they don’t have popular teachings. The general conference talks, on the other hand, try not to offend anybody (but somehow end up offending everybody…lol).

Ah, I see. Excellent point. Thanks for the contribution!

[4Joshua8]

Can you imagine the discontent if a man gave a lesson in combined priesthood/womens using the New Testament as a basis of laying out a woman’s role toward her husband? Or a GC talk?

Are you talking obedience to her husband… right? lol.

Oh, there are a few good gems in the New Testament about women’s role toward husbands.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Can you imagine the discontent if a man gave a lesson in combined priesthood/womens using the New Testament as a basis of laying out a woman’s role toward her husband? Or a GC talk?

Are you talking obedience to her husband… right? lol.

Oh, there are a few good gems in the New Testament about women’s role toward husbands.

Maybe we can return to the law of moses as well.

[endlessQuestions]

Do the scriptures need to be amplified by manuals?

IMG_1841.jpeg (287.92 KiB) Viewed 304 times

Occult secret society affiliated LDS leaders say “Yes!”.

[Wolfwoman]

Wondering what people's thoughts are regarding this.

I have five children. They get very little scriptural instruction while at Church.

Why is this? The standard works are still the standard, right?

If these men wanted to, they could add their works to the standard works - so why don't they try?

Not even your kids are getting scriptural instruction? Last time I was in primary they were getting lessons from/about the scriptures. The come follow me program.
Relief Society and priesthood are different though. It’s always a conference talk.

[larsenb]

. . . . . It's the same problem the Jews had, if I understand things correctly. God had given them the Pentateuch, and then along came all these men who wanted to add their commentary, and then over time, the commentary became as or more important than the word of God

Interesting analogy. I hadn't thought of this before. However, the Mishnah, various Talmuds, the Targums, the midrash literature, essentially filled the vacuum resulting after the OT prophets over quite a long period of time, going way beyond what our current leaders have done . . . . so far.

Maybe we're just getting started on this process.

[InfoWarrior82]

. . . . . It's the same problem the Jews had, if I understand things correctly. God had given them the Pentateuch, and then along came all these men who wanted to add their commentary, and then over time, the commentary became as or more important than the word of God

Interesting analogy. I hadn't thought of this before. However, the Mishnah, various Talmuds, the Targums, the midrash literature, essentially filled the vacuum resulting after the OT prophets over quite a long period of time, going way beyond what our current leaders have done . . . . so far.

Maybe we're just getting started on this process.

The alternative is an earth-shattering bonafide revelation from Jesus Christ. Do you actually think these men are capable after the heavens being silent to them for hundreds of years?

[Shawn Henry]

"The son of Zacharias [John the Baptist] wrested the keys, the kingdom, the power, the glory from the Jews, by the holy anointing and decree of heaven" - Joseph Smith, TPJS Chp 6

Did the Jews notice?

Nope! Nor will we, the current Jews, when that event repeats itself in the latter-days.

[Shawn Henry]

then along came all these men who wanted to add their commentary, and then over time, the commentary became as or more important than the word of God.

"But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come."

[Dusty Wanderer]

Wondering what people's thoughts are regarding this.

I have five children. They get very little scriptural instruction while at Church.

Why is this? The standard works are still the standard, right?

If these men wanted to, they could add their works to the standard works - so why don't they try?

Strict adherence to the Standard Works could put them at odds with the world. And if Church leadership is your goal, that may preclude one from being a useful instrument in forming and maintaining connections and ensuring a positive brand image.

In-fashion, contemporary interpretation of the Standard Works will reduce the risk of not fitting-in with the world -- and in some cases, even reducing the risk of putting ourselves at odds with the institutional church, as many on this forum have experienced.

Also, there are no special considerations for conveniently demoting or changing a previous leader's remarks, where changes to the Standard Works may have a much messier effect on optics.

They don't add to the Standard Works because what would be the point? There's much more flexibility operating as it is (cf. sentence directly above). Further, when has an appeal to the Standard Works overturned the proceedings of the Holy Handbook and/or other dictates of Church HQ? No need to go to the effort and bring the problem to members attention when the status quo is already near optimal malleability.

And I do recognize that for some of the more introspective leadership, they know that their words are mere interpretations and "opinions", as Pres. H. Lee once said; and they still hold a reverence for the Standard Works deep down. It's just the fear and adoration of men is a very powerful elixir.

[Shawn Henry]

Because the church literally teaches that their words, the words of a “living prophet”, are more important than the scriptures.

This is so true, and it is what will lead the members to hell. They will learn the hard way.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Because the church literally teaches that their words, the words of a “living prophet”, are more important than the scriptures.

This is so true, and it is what will lead the members to hell. They will learn the hard way.

I like to say that it leads to their damnation, with the emphasis on a stopping of their progression. I also prefer the other term in 2 Nephi 28 in that a curse befalls all who blindly follow “living prophets.”

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Wondering what people's thoughts are regarding this.

I have five children. They get very little scriptural instruction while at Church.

Why is this? The standard works are still the standard, right?

If these men wanted to, they could add their works to the standard works - so why don't they try?

The scriptures are the standard by which to measure truth. All that we teach in this church ought to be couched in the scriptures. We ought to choose our texts from the scriptures, and wherever you have an illustration in the scriptures or a revelation in the Book of Mormon, use it, and do not draw from other sources where you can find it here in these books. We call these the standard Church works because they are standard. If you want to measure truth, measure it by the four standard Church works. If it is not in the standard works, you may well assume that it is speculation. It is man's own personal opinion, to put it another way; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, you may know by that same token that it is not true. This is the standard by which you measure all truth. But if you do not know the standards, you have no adequate measure of truth.

Teachings of Harold B. Lee, p 149

It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teaching of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine. You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted.

Joseph Fielding Smith
Doctrines of Salvation, 3:203-204

[randyps]

I understand your frustration.

I guess my logical brain doesn't understand:

IF the standard works are the standard
And IF the prophets aren't adding to the canon, but are just repeating what's already in there
Then WHY do I need to listen to the words of the prophets? Wouldn't I be better served just going straight to the source, and making sure there was no room for error?

I'm hoping people can help me work through this one - I don't have any answers, but the question was forcibly impressed upon my mind awhile back, and I haven't been able to answer it for myself satisfactorily.

Maybe it's just my engineering brain and the idea that you don't reference anything but the standards when you're working inside a certain discipline. That's why they're the standard.

They want their commentary on holy writ to be what members cling to. They can't produce their own.

Okay, but that's illogical, right?

It's the same problem the Jews had, if I understand things correctly. God had given them the Pentateuch, and then along came all these men who wanted to add their commentary, and then over time, the commentary became as or more important than the word of God.

I don't know why I don't feel settled on this one. The argument seems tight, but it's like I'm missing something that makes me reticent to form a final conclusion.

Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the conversation.

Home centered learning, Church supported ...that says it all!
The Church is true!

My kids dont go to church so Instead of "The philosophies of President Nelson mingled with scripture"
I get to give my kids "The philosophies of Daddy mingled with scripture"

[Reluctant Watchman]

I get to give my kids "The philosophies of Daddy mingled with scripture"

IMO, those are some of the best lessons ever!!

[endlessQuestions]

Wondering what people's thoughts are regarding this.

I have five children. They get very little scriptural instruction while at Church.

Why is this? The standard works are still the standard, right?

If these men wanted to, they could add their works to the standard works - so why don't they try?

The scriptures are the standard by which to measure truth. All that we teach in this church ought to be couched in the scriptures. We ought to choose our texts from the scriptures, and wherever you have an illustration in the scriptures or a revelation in the Book of Mormon, use it, and do not draw from other sources where you can find it here in these books. We call these the standard Church works because they are standard. If you want to measure truth, measure it by the four standard Church works. If it is not in the standard works, you may well assume that it is speculation. It is man's own personal opinion, to put it another way; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, you may know by that same token that it is not true. This is the standard by which you measure all truth. But if you do not know the standards, you have no adequate measure of truth.

Teachings of Harold B. Lee, p 149

It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teaching of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine. You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted.

Joseph Fielding Smith
Doctrines of Salvation, 3:203-204

Paging Elder Haynie.

It would have been nice if he had one more, itsy bitsy, teenie weenie little section in his talk.

Oh well. We live and learn. Maybe next conference.

THANK YOU.

[randyps]

Because the church literally teaches that their words, the words of a “living prophet”, are more important than the scriptures.

This is so true, and it is what will lead the members to hell. They will learn the hard way.

Sorry, in my own personal experience one guaranteed way to the Celestial Kingdom is to live a covenant life and check off all the boxes required to be a LDS member in good standing holding a current temple recommend. This obviously includes the basics like baptism, accepting Jesus as our savior, weekly sacrament and daily repentance.

At age 19 I was one of those members and God allowed me to cross over the veil into the celestial kingdom to get a taste of what I was worthy of. It wasnt a near death experience or even a dream, I was fully aware and conscious. and guess what? I think I still masterbated the week before and after. My point is that I wasnt perfect but i checked off all the boxes, Modern living prophets are not perfect, the scriptures are not perfect either and neither are you.

[Shawn Henry]

check off all the boxes

Randy, the fact that you think and write "check off all the boxes" belies the fact that you have a misunderstanding regarding what brings salvation. Try to show me any validation of box checking in the BoM. It was the Zoramites and their weekly box checking that was condemned.

[4Joshua8]

check off all the boxes

Randy, the fact that you think and write "check off all the boxes" belies the fact that you have a misunderstanding regarding what brings salvation. Try to show me any validation of box checking in the BoM. It was the Zoramites and their weekly box checking that was condemned.

There's something to be said for the humility it can take to do things others in authority require. But humility isn't the only virtue or value.

If we check the boxes but aren't born again and sanctified by the Holy ghost, did we really check the boxes?

One 1828 definition of sanctify: to cleanse from corruption; to purify from sin; to make holy by detaching the affections from the world and its defilements, and exalting them to a supreme love to God.

If we are still deluded partakers of babylon's booty, have we really checked all the boxes?

If we still long for babylon's offering, have we really checked all the boxes?

[randyps]

check off all the boxes

Randy, the fact that you think and write "check off all the boxes" belies the fact that you have a misunderstanding regarding what brings salvation. Try to show me any validation of box checking in the BoM. It was the Zoramites and their weekly box checking that was condemned.

i used to think the same as you and there is some truth to it but after my experience its a bit more complicated.

you continually quote scripture as if its your law, jesus is the law and the new covenant we should all be following which means the law has now become a personal experience, its also dynamic hence the need for modern prophets and the restored gospel.

box checking is just the plan and guide in the process of following him until we understand what it all means. unfortunately human understanding is limited. my experience in the celestial kingdom helped me understand beyond my human limitations.

if scripture is all u have to claim allegiance to god and jesus i commend u but also pray that u eventually develop a personal relationship that trump the words of others (aka scriptures)

[Mamabear]

Because the church literally teaches that their words, the words of a “living prophet”, are more important than the scriptures.

This is so true, and it is what will lead the members to hell. They will learn the hard way.

Do you really think our brothers and sisters that have been deceived by “religious” men are going to hell? I don’t. I know wonderful people with hearts of gold that are being deceived right now by various religions and I don’t believe they are doomed.

[Shawn Henry]

if scripture is all u have to claim allegiance to god and jesus i commend u but also pray that u eventually develop a personal relationship that trump the words of others (aka scriptures)

The scriptures cannot be "trumped". God's word in them says that he does not vary from that which he says, neither to the left or the right. Why give an Iron Rod and command all to hold fast to it, just to trump it with something else?

[Shawn Henry]

Do you really think our brothers and sisters that have been deceived by “religious” men are going to hell? I don’t. I know wonderful people with hearts of gold that are being deceived right now by various religions and I don’t believe they are doomed.

Repentance can bring them out of it.

[Seed Starter]

Do the scriptures need to be amplified by manuals?

IMG_1841.jpeg

Occult secret society affiliated LDS leaders say “Yes!”.

Tim Ballard calls this (the sizzle)