How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

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Mamabear
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How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by Mamabear »

When they claimed that God had sex with Mary?

Orson Pratt
The Seer, p.158

"The Holy Ghost gave [Mary] strength to abide in the presence of the Father without being consumed, but it was the personage of the Father who begat the body of Jesus; and for this reason Jesus is called 'the Only Begotten of the Father;' that is, the only one in this world whose fleshly body was begotten by the Father. There were millions of sons and daughters who he begat before the foundation of this world, but they were spirits, and not bodies of flesh and bones. [...]

"The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: … Inasmuch as God was the first husband to her, it may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in the mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity."

Brigham Young
Journal of Discourses, vol. 1:8

"Now Remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. … When the Virgin Mary conceived the Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… What a learned idea' Jesus, our elder brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in heaven.”

The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, vol. 1, p. 321; February 16, 1849, Salt Lake City

"The Father came down and begat him, the same as we do now…”

Journal of Discourses vol. 8:27

“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,”

Journal of Discourses, vol. 11:41

“The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband.”

Heber C. Kimball
Journal of Discourses vol. 8:54

“In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Savior Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it.”

James E. Talmadge
Articles of Faith, 466.
“Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh.”

Bruce R. McConkie
Mormon Doctrine, 456-547, 466, 468.

“…our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only, begotten means begotten, and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in He same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers … There is no need to spiritualize away the plain meaning of the scriptures. There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord's coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. It is just that simple”

Joseph Fielding Smith
Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1:18

“CHRIST NOT BEGOTTEN OF THE HOLY GHOST … Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God! ... They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement.”

Religious Truths Defined, 44.

“The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit”

Family Home Evening Manual (1972), 125, 126.

“Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father …Jesus is the only person who had our Heavenly Father as the father of his body”

The Restoration of All Things, 61.

“Jesus was not the son of any mortal man. His biological father was God, the Father. As Son of God, Jesus represents the Father and acts as his agent in all things.”

Melvin J. Ballard
Deseret News, 23 Dec 1923; Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, 166-167.

“as to whether or not his was a virgin birth, a birth wherein divine power interceded. … And if God the Eternal Father is not the real Father of Jesus Christ, then are we in confusion; then is he not in reality the Son of God. But we declare that he is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. … No man or woman can live in mortality and survive the presence of the Highest except by the sustaining power of the Holy Ghost. So it came upon her to prepare her for admittance into the divine presence, and the power of the Highest, who is the Father, was present, and overshadowed her, and the holy Child that was born of her was called the Son of God. Men who deny this, or who think that it degrades our Father, have no true conception of the sacredness of the most marvelous power with which God has endowed mortal men--the power of creation. Even though that power may be abused and may become a mere harp of pleasure to the wicked, nevertheless it is the most sacred and holy and divine function with which God has endowed man. Made holy, it is retained by the Father of us all, and in his exercise of that great and marvelous creative power and function, he did not debase himself, degrade himself, nor debauch his daughter. Thus Christ became the literal Son of a divine Father, and no one else was worthy to be his father.”

Ezra Taft Benson
The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 7.

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost”
——————————————

This quote by Brigham really cracks me up:
“The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband.” 😂

CuriousThinker
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by CuriousThinker »

With God all things are possible- so why can't we believe that she had God's and her child without having sex? Surrogates do it all the time.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Why was Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible never completed?

Mamabear
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by Mamabear »

CuriousThinker wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 8:27 am With God all things are possible- so why can't we believe that she had God's and her child without having sex? Surrogates do it all the time.
Right. Maybe because mormon leaders are obsessed with thinking about the sex other people have. Including making up stories about God.

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Mindfields
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by Mindfields »

Because polygamy flavored and continues to flavor everything in the church.

The church made adultery its crowning ordinance and then created a theology to support it.

4Joshua8
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by 4Joshua8 »

God has the power to place a sperm into an egg without sex with a person.
Both my boys were conceived via IVF. If we can do IVF, being relatively ignorant and stupid compared to God, imagine what God can do.

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Niemand
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by Niemand »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 8:36 am Why was Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible never completed?
Death intervened.

Christianlee
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by Christianlee »

They wanted to claim they were the smartest people in the room. "I don't know" was foreign to their mindset.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Niemand wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 10:44 am
InfoWarrior82 wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 8:36 am Why was Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible never completed?
Death intervened.
Certainly you're not saying that those that came after Joseph Smith are not PSRs?

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abijah
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by abijah »

The opinion I've been coming to for a while now is that church leaders both new and old have always been halfway scripturally literate at best (including Joseph), and that's being really generous.

Zero conception of how this relates to the nephilim, and the attempt to counterfeit the incarnation of Christ through mortal women and divine sires, whereas Jesus's birth was a holy sign that distinguished Mary from those antediluvian hoes, something Joseph was surely worried about till the angel informed him otherwise.

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Robin Hood
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by Robin Hood »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 8:36 am Why was Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible never completed?
It was published by the RLDS back in the 1800's.
We never had access to the document so we couldn't have published it even if we'd wanted to.

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Niemand
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by Niemand »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 12:29 pm
Niemand wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 10:44 am
InfoWarrior82 wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 8:36 am Why was Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible never completed?
Death intervened.
Certainly you're not saying that those that came after Joseph Smith are not PSRs?
Well, he would have been dead. Short of coming back as a celestialised being he couldn't have done it.

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Niemand
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by Niemand »

Robin Hood wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 12:38 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 8:36 am Why was Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible never completed?
It was published by the RLDS back in the 1800's.
We never had access to the document so we couldn't have published it even if we'd wanted to.
There is controversy over the RLDS version. Personally it always seemed uneven. Matthew is much better covered than some other books.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Niemand wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 1:27 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 12:29 pm
Niemand wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 10:44 am

Death intervened.
Certainly you're not saying that those that came after Joseph Smith are not PSRs?
Well, he would have been dead. Short of coming back as a celestialised being he couldn't have done it.

Why couldn't Brigham Young do it? Or President Nelson?

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Niemand
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by Niemand »

InfoWarrior82 wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 1:42 pm
Niemand wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 1:27 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 12:29 pm

Certainly you're not saying that those that came after Joseph Smith are not PSRs?
Well, he would have been dead. Short of coming back as a celestialised being he couldn't have done it.

Why couldn't Brigham Young do it? Or President Nelson?
You know the answer to the latter. Brigham Young was more of a practical man.

Atrasado
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by Atrasado »

I had a great disagreement in class with Joseph Fielding McConkie about this. He told my Book of Mormon class at BYU that Mary and God the Father had sexual intercourse. Now, that doesn't bother me per se, except it seems a little Greek, if you know what I mean, and Mary seemed very young. But it isn't what the scriptures say.

I told him that the Book of Mormon was canonized scripture and that I would go with Alma 7:10 for now. He told me that artificial insemination was ungodly. I said I would still go with the scripture. Then he pulled out the my-grandfather-and-my-father-said card. It wasn't his finest hour and I still wasn't convinced.

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Luke
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by Luke »

They were right.

God isn’t different to us — in the sense that we are of the same species. All things exist on natural principles.

Bronco73idi
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Re: How come so many PSR’s disagreed with the Bible?

Post by Bronco73idi »

Atrasado wrote: October 22nd, 2023, 3:01 pm I had a great disagreement in class with Joseph Fielding McConkie about this. He told my Book of Mormon class at BYU that Mary and God the Father had sexual intercourse. Now, that doesn't bother me per se, except it seems a little Greek, if you know what I mean, and Mary seemed very young. But it isn't what the scriptures say.

I told him that the Book of Mormon was canonized scripture and that I would go with Alma 7:10 for now. He told me that artificial insemination was ungodly. I said I would still go with the scripture. Then he pulled out the my-grandfather-and-my-father-said card. It wasn't his finest hour and I still wasn't convinced.
Maybe they erred when speaking out loud. Did they ever say thus sayest the Lord?

Did Adam die?
Did his body go back to the dust?
Was he resurrected before his son?
Did his Spirit impregnate Mary?

Isn’t the important message here, The son has a father and his name is Adam.

Gospel off Thomas
15 Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father."

I don’t know if Adam was resurrected before Jesus, I do know he was given dominion over all the earth and he wasn’t born of woman, his son was born of woman.

I also know that Adam’s first son could not kill his second son without the help of Satan. That secret was so important that a descendant of Cain killed another to keep it away from Men…. Weird, wasn’t the descendant of Cain just another normal man?

No one taught me these things on this earth, I was lead to them by the Holy Ghost or that crazy voice in my head…..

I’m always questioning, I have no agenda but the truth.

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