What if… Who will be first?

[JK4Woods]

Reading about how congregations of the United Methodist Church have been voting to remove themselves from the overall organization and going forward with more conservative doctrine.

The UMC has been soft on traditional Christian values and welcomed many of the socially progressive tenants of society today.

John Wesley, founder of the Methodist said:
“What one generation tolerates, the next generation embraces”.

Made me wonder if any LDS wards, would become uppity enough to breakaway from SLC HQ on principle, wanting to cleave to more conservative doctrine.

Some gutsy lawyer would need to file lawsuits against HQ showing the courts that from the years and years of tithing, the local congregation are entitled to the ward building. That would be interesting to see the battle of the gestapoish Kirtin McKonkie roll into town, silence press, and eviserate the rebels, while simultaneously having the ecclesiastical leadership excommunicate all the members.

Having property ownership centralized in HQ of all US property, makes it a bit of a battle.

Who, or Where might this occur first?

[nightlight]

Societal conditions would have to change for us to see Ward&Stake break off

Losing access to HQs virtual presence would start to cause fractures in LDS communities that are furthest from HQ (if the church DOESN'T delegate direction to the government)

In the US, LDS in the southern states would start first.

If one of the last messages from HQ was to follow the guidance of governmental authority, the church will shatter like glass

[Niemand]

It has been happening a lot in Presbyterian churches here, but if a ward in the LDS goes, it loses all of its physical space.

[Cruiserdude]

Reading about how congregations of the United Methodist Church have been voting to remove themselves from the overall organization and going forward with more conservative doctrine.

The UMC has been soft on traditional Christian values and welcomed many of the socially progressive tenants of society today.

John Wesley, founder of the Methodist said:
“What one generation tolerates, the next generation embraces”.

Made me wonder if any LDS wards, would become uppity enough to breakaway from SLC HQ on principle, wanting to cleave to more conservative doctrine.

Some gutsy lawyer would need to file lawsuits against HQ showing the courts that from the years and years of tithing, the local congregation are entitled to the ward building. That would be interesting to see the battle of the gestapoish Kirtin McKonkie roll into town, silence press, and eviserate the rebels, while simultaneously having the ecclesiastical leadership excommunicate all the members.

Having property ownership centralized in HQ of all US property, makes it a bit of a battle.

Who, or Where might this occur first?

Holy moly.... The words of a real seer.

John Wesley, founder of the Methodist said:
“What one generation tolerates, the next generation embraces”.

We have it coming to us and we deserve it as we did not stand tall against many of the evils of the world.
Is there a way we can 'take our church back' from the hands of those who've corrupted it? Without common consent, I'm guessing we can't do anything as it's a corporation... Is there really nothing we can do???

[Cruiserdude]

Societal conditions would have to change for us to see Ward&Stake break off

Losing access to HQs virtual presence would start to cause fractures in LDS communities that are furthest from HQ (if the church DOESN'T delegate direction to the government)

In the US, LDS in the southern states would start first.

If one of the last messages from HQ was to follow the guidance of governmental authority, the church will shatter like glass

Sign me up

[nightlight]

It has been happening a lot in Presbyterian churches here, but if a ward in the LDS goes, it loses all of its physical space.

Physical space isn't a problem in the States. I'm sure the majority of LDS are private property owners. It's not really a "renting" class of people

The biggest obstacle would be indoctrination. But if you minus virtual presence...... out of sight, out of mind

[tmac]

Reading about how congregations of the United Methodist Church have been voting to remove themselves from the overall organization and going forward with more conservative doctrine.

The UMC has been soft on traditional Christian values and welcomed many of the socially progressive tenants of society today.

John Wesley, founder of the Methodist said:
“What one generation tolerates, the next generation embraces”.

Made me wonder if any LDS wards, would become uppity enough to breakaway from SLC HQ on principle, wanting to cleave to more conservative doctrine.

Some gutsy lawyer would need to file lawsuits against HQ showing the courts that from the years and years of tithing, the local congregation are entitled to the ward building. That would be interesting to see the battle of the gestapoish Kirtin McKonkie roll into town, silence press, and eviserate the rebels, while simultaneously having the ecclesiastical leadership excommunicate all the members.

Having property ownership centralized in HQ of all US property, makes it a bit of a battle.

Who, or Where might this occur first?

Interesting thought(s).

Highly unlikely that anything like that could happen in Utah.

[BuriedTartaria]

Made me wonder if any LDS wards, would become uppity enough to breakaway from SLC HQ on principle, wanting to cleave to more conservative doctrine.

Everyone, this is already happening on an individual/grass-roots level. Devotion and unity to the 12 is so core to the LDS institution, and it's a trillion dollar value institution, I'm not sure you will see any ward or any member of the 12 do some sort of "walk away with me, we will be LDS-conservative" united group sort of break-off. But this general idea you're describing is definitely happening, it's just individuals across a number of wards (and across a number of Mormon churches) walking away from the LDS mother ship (or other Mormon churches) while keeping their belief in the Book of Mormon without having a new, organized church they're all joining.


The recent gathering at the Thanksgiving Point theater (in Utah) to listen to talks and watch a movie centered on a non-traditional take on Joseph Smith's death is an example of this. This was an independent and non-denominational gathering of believers in the Book of Mormon, who largely broke away from the LDS institution, meeting to embrace the belief that church history as presented by academia is not the whole truth and the LDS church is less than it claims to be.

Here is another example of what is being described as yearned after in this thread already going on;

Teacher in Zion's recent gathering this summer for believers of the Book of Mormon across all sects to gather and worship with one another. Teacher In Zion encourages his listeners to come out of "dead churches" and the doctrine he teaches (seems to me) is very David Whitmer; be wary of the Doctrine and Covenants, focus on things that line up with the Bible and Book of Mormon. It's too (quietly) "Joseph Smith Bad!" (Teacher In Zion won't explicitly come out and say that, and I'm sure not all of his followers feel that but it's clear he's hardcore in the camp of David Whitmer's assessment of Mormonism being the correct take and his teachings seem to ditch the eternally progressing in light, receiving grace for grace message Joseph Smith taught following the publication of the Book of Mormon, and ditching that powerful expounding of the eternities is too much for me to ignore) for me, but I acknowledge he could be right and I could be wrong and it's nice to see they had a successful gathering. I'm happy for them.

For all those who wish they could have participated, it is my hope and really my belief that similar gatherings like this one, will occur in numerous places as God's people come out of dead religion and begin to communicate with one another and desire that deeper fellowship with others who are on the same journey. Although we come from different backgrounds, different traditions, none of those differences really seemed to matter. If anything it only enhanced the experience as God's spirit knitted our hearts together

We did not seek to glorify or draw anyone to any denomination or group or person, except to just seek to be a part of Christ's own church, of which Christ alone is the head. That church knows no denominational boundaries.

[Rubicon]

Given core LDS beliefs about keys and authority (which are different from Protestantism), the situation is different. Renegade break offs have to revert to the Protestant belief that keys and lines of authority by the laying on of hands don't matter, and that is diametrically opposed to core LDS belief.

I don't think a break-off .movement of individual independent wards would get any traction. As has been said, all church properties are centrally owned.

Break offs would be much more like independent Snufferite home church groups, and I don't see these as figure any traction or momentum. They will always be small and fledgling.

[FrankOne]

As someone once said:

As went the Warren Jeff's Church Organization, so will go the LDS church.

-exposure of lies and corruption
-fractured church
-land and holdings split up by courts

The hard core remnant members blame Satan for the destruction and completely refuse to acknowledge errors of the "God Chosen Leaders."

[p8riot]

Reading about how congregations of the United Methodist Church have been voting to remove themselves from the overall organization and going forward with more conservative doctrine.

The UMC has been soft on traditional Christian values and welcomed many of the socially progressive tenants of society today.

John Wesley, founder of the Methodist said:
“What one generation tolerates, the next generation embraces”.

Made me wonder if any LDS wards, would become uppity enough to breakaway from SLC HQ on principle, wanting to cleave to more conservative doctrine.

Some gutsy lawyer would need to file lawsuits against HQ showing the courts that from the years and years of tithing, the local congregation are entitled to the ward building. That would be interesting to see the battle of the gestapoish Kirtin McKonkie roll into town, silence press, and eviserate the rebels, while simultaneously having the ecclesiastical leadership excommunicate all the members.

Having property ownership centralized in HQ of all US property, makes it a bit of a battle.

Who, or Where might this occur first?

I think a claim to church properties would be tough to get in US courts. Not sure if it's still on there but there used to be a little disclaimer on tithing slips that all funds donated are ultimately at the discretion of the President of the Corporation of the Church. If it it's going to happen, I think it would start overseas- Africa, South America, or possibly Canada or Australia where the church tax-exempt charity status is being challenged.

[Fred]

There is zero probability that a break-off would be any more "Christ's Church" than the existing one. First of all, Christ has to claim it. He did claim the existing one for a while. But then we were under condemnation. He actually removed his name. But man put it back. But God quit speaking with the frauds. A spin-off would be just another fraud. Give us your money so we can build nice buildings. Christ never did that. Those who follow Christ are Christ's church.

[cwass]

Reading about how congregations of the United Methodist Church have been voting to remove themselves from the overall organization and going forward with more conservative doctrine.

The UMC has been soft on traditional Christian values and welcomed many of the socially progressive tenants of society today.

John Wesley, founder of the Methodist said:
“What one generation tolerates, the next generation embraces”.

Made me wonder if any LDS wards, would become uppity enough to breakaway from SLC HQ on principle, wanting to cleave to more conservative doctrine.

Some gutsy lawyer would need to file lawsuits against HQ showing the courts that from the years and years of tithing, the local congregation are entitled to the ward building. That would be interesting to see the battle of the gestapoish Kirtin McKonkie roll into town, silence press, and eviserate the rebels, while simultaneously having the ecclesiastical leadership excommunicate all the members.

Having property ownership centralized in HQ of all US property, makes it a bit of a battle.

Who, or Where might this occur first?

In another thread armchair talked about how his ward was about as conservative as you could get. Like nobody was buying what was coming out of salt lake.

Maybe a ward like that would break off and start meeting together. Or a ward or branch that has a prominent family or two that make up the majority of the branch could decide they wanted to hold to the old ways.

Similar to the saints in Mexico that left the church en mass and an apostle came to them and brought most of them back in the early 20th century

[Robin Hood]

Reading about how congregations of the United Methodist Church have been voting to remove themselves from the overall organization and going forward with more conservative doctrine.

The UMC has been soft on traditional Christian values and welcomed many of the socially progressive tenants of society today.

John Wesley, founder of the Methodist said:
“What one generation tolerates, the next generation embraces”.

Made me wonder if any LDS wards, would become uppity enough to breakaway from SLC HQ on principle, wanting to cleave to more conservative doctrine.

Some gutsy lawyer would need to file lawsuits against HQ showing the courts that from the years and years of tithing, the local congregation are entitled to the ward building. That would be interesting to see the battle of the gestapoish Kirtin McKonkie roll into town, silence press, and eviserate the rebels, while simultaneously having the ecclesiastical leadership excommunicate all the members.

Having property ownership centralized in HQ of all US property, makes it a bit of a battle.

Who, or Where might this occur first?

Many RLDS congregations tried this, but none of them succeeded. HQ retained ownership of the real estate, and the rebellious branches were obliged to move out.

[JuneBug12000]

Reading about how congregations of the United Methodist Church have been voting to remove themselves from the overall organization and going forward with more conservative doctrine.

The UMC has been soft on traditional Christian values and welcomed many of the socially progressive tenants of society today.

John Wesley, founder of the Methodist said:
“What one generation tolerates, the next generation embraces”.

Made me wonder if any LDS wards, would become uppity enough to breakaway from SLC HQ on principle, wanting to cleave to more conservative doctrine.

Some gutsy lawyer would need to file lawsuits against HQ showing the courts that from the years and years of tithing, the local congregation are entitled to the ward building. That would be interesting to see the battle of the gestapoish Kirtin McKonkie roll into town, silence press, and eviserate the rebels, while simultaneously having the ecclesiastical leadership excommunicate all the members.

Having property ownership centralized in HQ of all US property, makes it a bit of a battle.

Who, or Where might this occur first?

In another thread armchair talked about how his ward was about as conservative as you could get. Like nobody was buying what was coming out of salt lake.

Maybe a ward like that would break off and start meeting together. Or a ward or branch that has a prominent family or two that make up the majority of the branch could decide they wanted to hold to the old ways.

Similar to the saints in Mexico that left the church en mass and an apostle came to them and brought most of them back in the early 20th century

My in laws thought their ward was fine, but it was just because they didn't have kids at home anymore. We have other family and friends in their ward and shared some of the stuff doing down in YW.

They were surprised, but also saw that it was true.

Maybe armchair does have a great ward. Maybe it is happenings outside of his view.

[Wolfwoman]

Reading about how congregations of the United Methodist Church have been voting to remove themselves from the overall organization and going forward with more conservative doctrine.

The UMC has been soft on traditional Christian values and welcomed many of the socially progressive tenants of society today.

John Wesley, founder of the Methodist said:
“What one generation tolerates, the next generation embraces”.

Made me wonder if any LDS wards, would become uppity enough to breakaway from SLC HQ on principle, wanting to cleave to more conservative doctrine.

Some gutsy lawyer would need to file lawsuits against HQ showing the courts that from the years and years of tithing, the local congregation are entitled to the ward building. That would be interesting to see the battle of the gestapoish Kirtin McKonkie roll into town, silence press, and eviserate the rebels, while simultaneously having the ecclesiastical leadership excommunicate all the members.

Having property ownership centralized in HQ of all US property, makes it a bit of a battle.

Who, or Where might this occur first?

In another thread armchair talked about how his ward was about as conservative as you could get. Like nobody was buying what was coming out of salt lake.

Maybe a ward like that would break off and start meeting together. Or a ward or branch that has a prominent family or two that make up the majority of the branch could decide they wanted to hold to the old ways.

Similar to the saints in Mexico that left the church en mass and an apostle came to them and brought most of them back in the early 20th century

I have not heard of this history in Mexico. Did they leave because polygamists were being excommunicated?

[TheDuke]

Given core LDS beliefs about keys and authority (which are different from Protestantism), the situation is different. Renegade break offs have to revert to the Protestant belief that keys and lines of authority by the laying on of hands don't matter, and that is diametrically opposed to core LDS belief.

I don't think a break-off .movement of individual independent wards would get any traction. As has been said, all church properties are centrally owned.

Break offs would be much more like independent Snufferite home church groups, and I don't see these as figure any traction or momentum. They will always be small and fledgling.

I agree. I'm not saying there will not be a time when things get rough and there is a major schism or split, but it would take following someone with authority or a grand claim of authority. Not sure about the davidic servant for example, but not from the ward or stake level, would take a major collection of wards of some kind that I cannot imagine.

[Rubicon]

Maybe a ward like that would break off and start meeting together. Or a ward or branch that has a prominent family or two that make up the majority of the branch could decide they wanted to hold to the old ways.

But what would these wards or groups of families do about authority, keys, and passing down by the laying on of hands? There are some people here who are comfortable just doing their own thing on their own, feeling authorized to do it like Protestants feel authorized to do it because they "just follow Jesus" (and maybe the Book of Mormon), but most people are not comfortable or confident in their eternal state doing this. And I don't see the "do-it-your-selfers" convincing others to "just follow Jesus, and maybe the Book of Mormon" on their own, with no lineal authority.

[Chip]

Maybe a ward like that would break off and start meeting together. Or a ward or branch that has a prominent family or two that make up the majority of the branch could decide they wanted to hold to the old ways.

But what would these wards or groups of families do about authority, keys, and passing down by the laying on of hands? There are some people here who are comfortable just doing their own thing on their own, feeling authorized to do it like Protestants feel authorized to do it because they "just follow Jesus" (and maybe the Book of Mormon), but most people are not comfortable or confident in their eternal state doing this. And I don't see the "do-it-your-selfers" convincing others to "just follow Jesus, and maybe the Book of Mormon" on their own, with no lineal authority.

I think this "authority" business is a ruse to keep people thinking they need the church. Just ask, why would God put anything vital into the hands of men who get people to follow them, as if they are special spokesmen for God, and then have them receive toxic injections? It's BS, but the programming is very strong. I don't see any ward or stake breaking away from the church, because they would have no confidence to operate outside of the heirarchy of the institution. The institution cannot be reformed by the members. Also, the leaders are usually the most brainwashed, at any moment, and they would be the last to agree to some kind of break, while they acted as captains loyal to the institution. So, the only thing people can and will do is LEAVE.

[Niemand]

Most of my ward these days consists of transients. i don't even know who most of them are. I doubt it would make any difference.