Meeting with stake president

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

She went to the meeting and my wife had told her that it's ok to speak your truth and that she doesn't have to give him private information. He was generally supportive of her. He asked about how she and her family were. He told her that he needed to go over the temple recommend questions and she didn't feel the need to go over some of those specific questions so instead of going over that she just turned in her temple recommend. She didn't want to argue. She said it was hard but she knew she didn't need to take any more time to consider her answers to her questions.

I'm really proud of her. She is just a kid. She has a testimony and has stressed that she is not having a crisis of faith. Her family is as true blue as they get. 6 siblings, missions, dad in church leadership etc. It's not easy. But can you imagine the ripple effect of that small act in a family like hers.

So, precisely, what was her truth?

(or in other words, what did the letter say?)

[cwass]

She went to the meeting and my wife had told her that it's ok to speak your truth and that she doesn't have to give him private information. He was generally supportive of her. He asked about how she and her family were. He told her that he needed to go over the temple recommend questions and she didn't feel the need to go over some of those specific questions so instead of going over that she just turned in her temple recommend. She didn't want to argue. She said it was hard but she knew she didn't need to take any more time to consider her answers to her questions.

I'm really proud of her. She is just a kid. She has a testimony and has stressed that she is not having a crisis of faith. Her family is as true blue as they get. 6 siblings, missions, dad in church leadership etc. It's not easy. But can you imagine the ripple effect of that small act in a family like hers.

So, precisely, what was her truth?

(or in other words, what did the letter say?)

Great question. I will see if she is ok sharing it with me.

From what I gathered from my wife the term gaslit was used in relation to tithing and the sec fine and possibly other things. I know she is bothered by where they are sending tithing funds...ie UN,Gavi etc.

I didn't ask her permission to share her story but I firmly believe that positive prayers helped her through a tough meeting and she sounded like she was at peace. My wife is just so proud of her. I will see if I can get permission to share more.

We live in the Eastern Time zone and she lives in mountain...but my wife went to bed an hour ago or I would try to find out tonight.

[cwass]

She went to the meeting and my wife had told her that it's ok to speak your truth and that she doesn't have to give him private information. He was generally supportive of her. He asked about how she and her family were. He told her that he needed to go over the temple recommend questions and she didn't feel the need to go over some of those specific questions so instead of going over that she just turned in her temple recommend. She didn't want to argue. She said it was hard but she knew she didn't need to take any more time to consider her answers to her questions.

I'm really proud of her. She is just a kid. She has a testimony and has stressed that she is not having a crisis of faith. Her family is as true blue as they get. 6 siblings, missions, dad in church leadership etc. It's not easy. But can you imagine the ripple effect of that small act in a family like hers.

So, precisely, what was her truth?

(or in other words, what did the letter say?)

You've got me a little nervous...I hope her truth is the truth. Pure motives are good.

[JohnnyL]

Isnt that what God want, for us to return to him? or is what you teach in your church to remain on earth aka telestial kingdom?

I'm pretty sure you knew what he meant, or should we thank gangs and mass murderers for sending people to God, too?

"Abortionists are doing the babies a favor! They're just expediting the little ones' journey back to Heaven!"

Generally, babies aren't aborted, fetuses are--so not the same. But yes, all things are done in the wisdom of God.

[Libertas Est Salus]

I'm pretty sure you knew what he meant, or should we thank gangs and mass murderers for sending people to God, too?

"Abortionists are doing the babies a favor! They're just expediting the little ones' journey back to Heaven!"

Generally, babies aren't aborted, fetuses are--so not the same. But yes, all things are done in the wisdom of God.

I was intentional about my choice of words. I personally don't make that distinction.

[J2]

More of us need to be speaking up and speaking out.

I know we often like to say that it won't make any difference, but the reality is that enough people start speaking up, it CAN and WILL impact the way the leadership chooses to act.

Keep in mind that we've ALREADY seen this happen with the LGBT issues, with mental health, and many other concerns. If it works for the left wing of the church, it can work for us too.

Speaking out helps.

J2, I'm with ya, but just wanted to point out one difference between us and the "left wing of the church". The issues they're being vocal about are in fashion and the church desperately seeks approval from the world. Expect the same type of push-back from the church as you get from the world.

This is very true, but unfortunately I am becoming more and more convinced each day that my own integrity doesn't allow me the option of not speaking out.

I feel very strongly that Christ wants us to speak the truth, and "do what is right, let the consequence follow."

But I'm still trying to work out exactly HOW I should go about doing that.

[logonbump]

A family member accused me of not “believing” in the leaders of the church. I responded by assuring him that my faith in Christ is strong, as well as my love for the Book of Mormon, my belief in Joseph Smith and the restoration, and my faith and trust in Biblical prophecy.

He gave me a weird look and walked away. He did not seem impressed, but who knows. Maybe he is thinking about it.

To most members the church is equivalent to God.

To most members, the Church belongs to Jesus Christ.

To Jesus Christ the church is the faithful repentant:
67 Behold, this is my doctrine- whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

[Niemand]

This reminds me of when I mentioned how creeped out I was by the Covid shot narrative to my pharmacist. She said, "Why don't you speak to your GP?" (General Practioner = doctor). I replied that there was no point, because he would just tell me to go and get it.

I see this as the same. We end up with a series of private discussions with leadership. Leadership will tend to come down on the side of leadership or get in trouble/be removed itself.

Do you think the woke people who proliferate in this church took every concern to their leaders? Or do you think they went and tried to remake the church in their image?

[Reluctant Watchman]

Generally, babies aren't aborted, fetuses are--so not the same. But yes, all things are done in the wisdom of God.

For the record, this has WTF written all over it.

[JohnnyL]

Generally, babies aren't aborted, fetuses are--so not the same. But yes, all things are done in the wisdom of God.

For the record, this has WTF written all over it.

So God doesn't allow these things to happen?
He doesn't allow all those poor children in Africa and all over to die from malnutrition?
He doesn't know, I guess?

[Reluctant Watchman]

(Exhibit A) : Generally, babies aren't aborted, fetuses are--so not the same. But yes, all things are done in the wisdom of God.

For the record, this has WTF written all over it.

So God doesn't allow these things to happen?
He doesn't allow all those poor children in Africa and all over to die from malnutrition?
He doesn't know, I guess?

See Exhibit A
I'm pretty sure not even LDS leaders think this way.

[JohnnyL]

For the record, this has WTF written all over it.

So God doesn't allow these things to happen?
He doesn't allow all those poor children in Africa and all over to die from malnutrition?
He doesn't know, I guess?

See Exhibit A
I'm pretty sure not even LDS leaders think this way.

You don't think those LDS leaders satanic baby-killing only-care-about-their-pockets lying #$@%$, etc.? There is a limit to their evil?

Skipping the questions, eh? Good technique!
Including "WTF" "for the record" in your comment to show your disdain and disgust at, and the horridness of, the comment? Better technique!! <clap>

[Fred]

This reminds me of when I mentioned how creeped out I was by the Covid shot narrative to my pharmacist. She said, "Why don't you speak to your GP?" (General Practioner = doctor). I replied that there was no point, because he would just tell me to go and get it.

I see this as the same. We end up with a series of private discussions with leadership. Leadership will tend to come down on the side of leadership or get in trouble/be removed itself.

Do you think the woke people who proliferate in this church took every concern to their leaders? Or do you think they went and tried to remake the church in their image?

McDonalds business model: Every store the same. Employees can't fix the ice cream machine because it has to be serviced by a specific company in order to keep things the same in every store. There is actually a web site to see which thousand store's ice cream machines are down because every store has to be identical.

Maybe they will change the name to The Church of McNelson.

[Serragon]

This reminds me of when I mentioned how creeped out I was by the Covid shot narrative to my pharmacist. She said, "Why don't you speak to your GP?" (General Practioner = doctor). I replied that there was no point, because he would just tell me to go and get it.

I see this as the same. We end up with a series of private discussions with leadership. Leadership will tend to come down on the side of leadership or get in trouble/be removed itself.

Do you think the woke people who proliferate in this church took every concern to their leaders? Or do you think they went and tried to remake the church in their image?

McDonalds business model: Every store the same. Employees can't fix the ice cream machine because it has to be serviced by a specific company in order to keep things the same in every store. There is actually a web site to see which thousand store's ice cream machines are down because every store has to be identical.

Maybe they will change the name to The Church of McNelson.

I ordered a McRevelation, but it was just an empty cup that all my friends assured me was near overflowing with goodness.

[JuneBug12000]

If you address it to one of the 15, and put "First Presidency" or "Quorum of the Twelve Apostles" as appropriate, I'm guessing it should reach them even with a not-perfectly-correct address.

It goes to missionaries who forward it to your SP.

It has to get past the censors. That is rare. Unless, as in GC, either Rasband or Renlund, shared a story about first having a family connection and then giving the royal treatment. Networking is real in the church. No network, no access.

"It goes to missionaries who forward it to your SP."

Not mine, ever. Have you had the experience (with your son, maybe) that happened that way?

"It has to get past the censors. That is rare. Unless, as in GC, either Rasband or Renlund, shared a story about first having a family connection and then giving the royal treatment. Networking is real in the church. No network, no access."

Yeah, that's a problem. and if you have a family connection, or a missionary connection, or such, maybe.

But you never know what got censored that someone might have responded to, had they seen it.

I actually called the COB a few years ago. A very unprepared young sister missionary answered the phone.

Have you had experiences where your letter reached one of the 15 and you got a response?

No, I haven't even tried to make contact past the SP with the stuff with my son. We had a new SP called the week after he came home and during stake conference the mission pres for the local mission spoke. He said the only reason missionaries come home early is their own fault.

Smack in the face to the three from our stake that former SP confirmed were MP problems, not missionary problems. Perpetuated the stereotype of sin or weakness being the only reason.

Our church today us as the church in the days of Jesus mortal ministry. The leadership is corrupt. We will continue to worship the true and living God. He will come and clean it up in his own time.

[Fred]

It goes to missionaries who forward it to your SP.

It has to get past the censors. That is rare. Unless, as in GC, either Rasband or Renlund, shared a story about first having a family connection and then giving the royal treatment. Networking is real in the church. No network, no access.

"It goes to missionaries who forward it to your SP."

Not mine, ever. Have you had the experience (with your son, maybe) that happened that way?

"It has to get past the censors. That is rare. Unless, as in GC, either Rasband or Renlund, shared a story about first having a family connection and then giving the royal treatment. Networking is real in the church. No network, no access."

Yeah, that's a problem. and if you have a family connection, or a missionary connection, or such, maybe.

But you never know what got censored that someone might have responded to, had they seen it.

I actually called the COB a few years ago. A very unprepared young sister missionary answered the phone.

Have you had experiences where your letter reached one of the 15 and you got a response?

No, I haven't even tried to make contact past the SP with the stuff with my son. We had a new SP called the week after he came home and during stake conference the mission pres for the local mission spoke. He said the only reason missionaries come home early is their own fault.

Smack in the face to the three from our stake that former SP confirmed were MP problems, not missionary problems. Perpetuated the stereotype of sin or weakness being the only reason.

Our church today us as the church in the days of Jesus mortal ministry. The leadership is corrupt. We will continue to worship the true and living God. He will come and clean it up in his own time.

Can you imagine a missionary presenting that message? It is the true restored church of Christ, but leadership is off the rails.

[4Joshua8]

It goes to missionaries who forward it to your SP.

It has to get past the censors. That is rare. Unless, as in GC, either Rasband or Renlund, shared a story about first having a family connection and then giving the royal treatment. Networking is real in the church. No network, no access.

"It goes to missionaries who forward it to your SP."

Not mine, ever. Have you had the experience (with your son, maybe) that happened that way?

"It has to get past the censors. That is rare. Unless, as in GC, either Rasband or Renlund, shared a story about first having a family connection and then giving the royal treatment. Networking is real in the church. No network, no access."

Yeah, that's a problem. and if you have a family connection, or a missionary connection, or such, maybe.

But you never know what got censored that someone might have responded to, had they seen it.

I actually called the COB a few years ago. A very unprepared young sister missionary answered the phone.

Have you had experiences where your letter reached one of the 15 and you got a response?

No, I haven't even tried to make contact past the SP with the stuff with my son. We had a new SP called the week after he came home and during stake conference the mission pres for the local mission spoke. He said the only reason missionaries come home early is their own fault.

Smack in the face to the three from our stake that former SP confirmed were MP problems, not missionary problems. Perpetuated the stereotype of sin or weakness being the only reason.

Our church today us as the church in the days of Jesus mortal ministry. The leadership is corrupt. We will continue to worship the true and living God. He will come and clean it up in his own time.

A couple years ago, I went to the COB and asked the receptionist missionary (a young woman) if I could see and talk to President Nelson. She said, “Are you so and so,” as if RMN was waiting for someone. I said no. She said I couldn’t see RMN. I guess I hadn’t been vetted. How rude of me to ask for his time, though, right?

[JD21]

"It goes to missionaries who forward it to your SP."

Not mine, ever. Have you had the experience (with your son, maybe) that happened that way?

"It has to get past the censors. That is rare. Unless, as in GC, either Rasband or Renlund, shared a story about first having a family connection and then giving the royal treatment. Networking is real in the church. No network, no access."

Yeah, that's a problem. and if you have a family connection, or a missionary connection, or such, maybe.

But you never know what got censored that someone might have responded to, had they seen it.

I actually called the COB a few years ago. A very unprepared young sister missionary answered the phone.

Have you had experiences where your letter reached one of the 15 and you got a response?

No, I haven't even tried to make contact past the SP with the stuff with my son. We had a new SP called the week after he came home and during stake conference the mission pres for the local mission spoke. He said the only reason missionaries come home early is their own fault.

Smack in the face to the three from our stake that former SP confirmed were MP problems, not missionary problems. Perpetuated the stereotype of sin or weakness being the only reason.

Our church today us as the church in the days of Jesus mortal ministry. The leadership is corrupt. We will continue to worship the true and living God. He will come and clean it up in his own time.

Can you imagine a missionary presenting that message? It is the true restored church of Christ, but leadership is off the rails.

How about:

Can you imagine a missionary presenting that message? It is the true restored church of Christ, but leadership is off the rails. Would you like to join us?

[larsenb]

Another issue I think is important, is that if you see things wrong in the Church or are offended by someone, and then leave the Church because of these perceptions, you've effectively thrown in the towel, and left the field to those who are OK or indifferent to the wrong(s) your perceive or have experienced.

Couldn't you do more good for the Church, initially established by the Lord via Joseph Smith, by staying in and holding to 'corrrect views', or by trying to reconcile with anyone who may have offended you?

I see the wrongs. I'm not offended. Sad? Yes. Really disheartened by much of it. I think they are spiritually abusing people.

How do you think this is "throwing in the towel"? I've spoken with emeritus members of the 70 all the way down to common folk members. Even my EQ pres asked me why I didn't leave. (BTW, I didn't leave because he said this.)

I think it's all a personal choice. I have friends who stay because they've felt compelled to, but believe the church is in error. I've had friends return because God prompted them to (not because they believe the doctrine).

My path and decision to leave is the best path for me. In some ways, the act of leaving can have a far more powerful effect than playing like you're a double agent in the church. We actually had friends ask themselves if they were being honest by going to church when they fully believe the church is in apostasy.

I stated in my recent "Trust in Me" essay, that I honestly don't believe Joseph would be a member of the church. They change almost every single thing he taught and completely disregard most of his discourses for modern "living prophets." Check out the section of my essay titled: Joseph Smith, A Prophet Ignored. Joseph wouldn't be a member of the LDS church IMO.

https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/trust-in-me

Well, everything’s a personal choice, outside of being compelled by force.

Again, the way I see it, is that the Lord spent 2,600 years preparing the ‘stick-of-Joseph’ to come forth, coupled with the Restoration. And when you read D&C 1, you can see that all of this effort was a big deal for Him. I personally can’t imagine that He would allow the whole effort to be derailed at Joseph Smith’s martyrdom. It doesn’t make sense that He would do so.

My logical conclusion then, is that He is allowing what is happening for His own purposes; and I’m not going to try to 2nd guess Him as to what those purposes are. I can speculate about it, but that is all.

Couple the above with the fact that the Church is preaching Christ and promulgating the Book of Mormon, and encouraging the members to exercise faith in Jesus Christ and to learn to do good continually, and yes, make and follow covenants in the temple; for most members, this is their focus; and I think they, generally speaking, benefit immensely by doing this.

I for one, am very loath to do anything to destroy or disrupt the faith and good works of these types of members, which I see as the majority . . . . and I include a son who is operating this way. I think it is not a very good course of action that may dislodge anyone from this type of conduct and faith in their lives.

Another down-side of focusing on the negative and effectively removing yourself from the Restoration, is that you may have a tendency to soak up every negative idea that pops up because it seems to feed into your overall assessment. A prime example of this kind of falsehood (my strong opinion), is the JT/WR assassination idea.

There are many, many people see what is going on, yet are trying to stay the course, according to their best lights.

I’m curious as to what you think your objective is in being so active in promoting your ideas in forums such as these. You’ve been a member here for less than 3 years, yet you’ve already posted 2,000 times more posts than I have, having been a forum member for 15 years. You are probably the most prolific poster here, now that Ymarsakar was exited stage-left.

Maybe, in some way, you are playing a role that is part of the Lord’s purpose. I don’t know.

And thinking that Joseph wouldn’t be a member of the present-day church is interesting speculation, but if he came up through the ranks, maybe at the age of 14, he would have prayed about what may have bothered him and gotten answers as to what to do, a la the Davidic Servant. Joseph Smith was a very, very tough act to follow for any of the succeeding Presidents of the Church.

[Dusty Wanderer]

More of us need to be speaking up and speaking out.

I know we often like to say that it won't make any difference, but the reality is that enough people start speaking up, it CAN and WILL impact the way the leadership chooses to act.

Keep in mind that we've ALREADY seen this happen with the LGBT issues, with mental health, and many other concerns. If it works for the left wing of the church, it can work for us too.

Speaking out helps.

J2, I'm with ya, but just wanted to point out one difference between us and the "left wing of the church". The issues they're being vocal about are in fashion and the church desperately seeks approval from the world. Expect the same type of push-back from the church as you get from the world.

This is very true, but unfortunately I am becoming more and more convinced each day that my own integrity doesn't allow me the option of not speaking out.

I feel very strongly that Christ wants us to speak the truth, and "do what is right, let the consequence follow."

But I'm still trying to work out exactly HOW I should go about doing that.

I understand and agree. For the record, I was not trying to dissuade you from doing so. Just a full disclosure/eyes-wide-open comment, is all.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

More of us need to be speaking up and speaking out.

I know we often like to say that it won't make any difference, but the reality is that enough people start speaking up, it CAN and WILL impact the way the leadership chooses to act.

Keep in mind that we've ALREADY seen this happen with the LGBT issues, with mental health, and many other concerns. If it works for the left wing of the church, it can work for us too.

Speaking out helps.

J2, I'm with ya, but just wanted to point out one difference between us and the "left wing of the church". The issues they're being vocal about are in fashion and the church desperately seeks approval from the world. Expect the same type of push-back from the church as you get from the world.

This is very true, but unfortunately I am becoming more and more convinced each day that my own integrity doesn't allow me the option of not speaking out.

I feel very strongly that Christ wants us to speak the truth, and "do what is right, let the consequence follow."

But I'm still trying to work out exactly HOW I should go about doing that.

The problem is are you certain your truth is THE truth?

[Reluctant Watchman]

Well, everything’s a personal choice, outside of being compelled by force.

Again, the way I see it, is that the Lord spent 2,600 years preparing the ‘stick-of-Joseph’ to come forth, coupled with the Restoration. And when you read D&C 1, you can see that all of this effort was a big deal for Him. I personally can’t imagine that He would allow the whole effort to be derailed at Joseph Smith’s martyrdom. It doesn’t make sense that He would do so.

My logical conclusion then, is that He is allowing what is happening for His own purposes; and I’m not going to try to 2nd guess Him as to what those purposes are. I can speculate about it, but that is all.

Couple the above with the fact that the Church is preaching Christ and promulgating the Book of Mormon, and encouraging the members to exercise faith in Jesus Christ and to learn to do good continually, and yes, make and follow covenants in the temple; for most members, this is their focus; and I think they, generally speaking, benefit immensely by doing this.

I for one, am very loath to do anything to destroy or disrupt the faith and good works of these types of members, which I see as the majority . . . . and I include a son who is operating this way. I think it is not a very good course of action that may dislodge anyone from this type of conduct and faith in their lives.

Another down-side of focusing on the negative and effectively removing yourself from the Restoration, is that you may have a tendency to soak up every negative idea that pops up because it seems to feed into your overall assessment. A prime example of this kind of falsehood (my strong opinion), is the JT/WR assassination idea.

There are many, many people see what is going on, yet are trying to stay the course, according to their best lights.

I’m curious as to what you think your objective is in being so active in promoting your ideas in forums such as these. You’ve been a member here for less than 3 years, yet you’ve already posted 2,000 times more posts than I have, having been a forum member for 15 years. You are probably the most prolific poster here, now that Ymarsakar was exited stage-left.

Maybe, in some way, you are playing a role that is part of the Lord’s purpose. I don’t know.

And thinking that Joseph wouldn’t be a member of the present-day church is interesting speculation, but if he came up through the ranks, maybe at the age of 14, he would have prayed about what may have bothered him and gotten answers as to what to do, a la the Davidic Servant. Joseph Smith was a very, very tough act to follow for any of the succeeding Presidents of the Church.

If you study Christ's word in the BoM, you'll also see that a restoration was prophesied, but also a period of tribulation, and then the work fo the Father would "commence." So yeah, a lot of work went to bring forth light into this world, but the same Christ prophesied the Gentiles would reject the fullness fo the gospel.

IMO the church preaches their own flavor of Christianity and their own Jesus. Their Jesus must "sustain" (aka obey and covenant to follow) men. I don't follow that Jesus. I also believe the dead care little at all for the work done in the temple. The BoM clearly teaches that those who die without the law are saved in Christ.

You see things as focusing on the negative. I see the exact opposite. I first had to realize correct doctrine and compare that to false or limiting doctrines in the church. I don't see that as a step backward, only forward.

As to my objective... I really, really, like to share what God is teaching me. I like to share the light of Christ and His teachings. I also really, really, like exposing false beliefs if (and I mean this) if people are willing to listen. There are literal anti-Christian teachings in the LDS church.

BTW, I think you are exaggerating a bit on the 2000X more posts. Being vocal just means I enjoy talking about a variety of subjects, religion being one of many. And, for the record, Niemand posts way more than I do.

And what would you expect Joseph to do today? The church has changed nearly everything he taught. I'm not exaggerating.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Another issue I think is important, is that if you see things wrong in the Church or are offended by someone, and then leave the Church because of these perceptions, you've effectively thrown in the towel, and left the field to those who are OK or indifferent to the wrong(s) your perceive or have experienced.

Couldn't you do more good for the Church, initially established by the Lord via Joseph Smith, by staying in and holding to 'corrrect views', or by trying to reconcile with anyone who may have offended you?

I see the wrongs. I'm not offended. Sad? Yes. Really disheartened by much of it. I think they are spiritually abusing people.

How do you think this is "throwing in the towel"? I've spoken with emeritus members of the 70 all the way down to common folk members. Even my EQ pres asked me why I didn't leave. (BTW, I didn't leave because he said this.)

I think it's all a personal choice. I have friends who stay because they've felt compelled to, but believe the church is in error. I've had friends return because God prompted them to (not because they believe the doctrine).

My path and decision to leave is the best path for me. In some ways, the act of leaving can have a far more powerful effect than playing like you're a double agent in the church. We actually had friends ask themselves if they were being honest by going to church when they fully believe the church is in apostasy.

I stated in my recent "Trust in Me" essay, that I honestly don't believe Joseph would be a member of the church. They change almost every single thing he taught and completely disregard most of his discourses for modern "living prophets." Check out the section of my essay titled: Joseph Smith, A Prophet Ignored. Joseph wouldn't be a member of the LDS church IMO.

https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/trust-in-me

Well, everything’s a personal choice, outside of being compelled by force.

Again, the way I see it, is that the Lord spent 2,600 years preparing the ‘stick-of-Joseph’ to come forth, coupled with the Restoration. And when you read D&C 1, you can see that all of this effort was a big deal for Him. I personally can’t imagine that He would allow the whole effort to be derailed at Joseph Smith’s martyrdom. It doesn’t make sense that He would do so.

My logical conclusion then, is that He is allowing what is happening for His own purposes; and I’m not going to try to 2nd guess Him as to what those purposes are. I can speculate about it, but that is all.

Couple the above with the fact that the Church is preaching Christ and promulgating the Book of Mormon, and encouraging the members to exercise faith in Jesus Christ and to learn to do good continually, and yes, make and follow covenants in the temple; for most members, this is their focus; and I think they, generally speaking, benefit immensely by doing this.

I for one, am very loath to do anything to destroy or disrupt the faith and good works of these types of members, which I see as the majority . . . . and I include a son who is operating this way. I think it is not a very good course of action that may dislodge anyone from this type of conduct and faith in their lives.

Another down-side of focusing on the negative and effectively removing yourself from the Restoration, is that you may have a tendency to soak up every negative idea that pops up because it seems to feed into your overall assessment. A prime example of this kind of falsehood (my strong opinion), is the JT/WR assassination idea.

There are many, many people see what is going on, yet are trying to stay the course, according to their best lights.

I’m curious as to what you think your objective is in being so active in promoting your ideas in forums such as these. You’ve been a member here for less than 3 years, yet you’ve already posted 2,000 times more posts than I have, having been a forum member for 15 years. You are probably the most prolific poster here, now that Ymarsakar was exited stage-left.

Maybe, in some way, you are playing a role that is part of the Lord’s purpose. I don’t know.

And thinking that Joseph wouldn’t be a member of the present-day church is interesting speculation, but if he came up through the ranks, maybe at the age of 14, he would have prayed about what may have bothered him and gotten answers as to what to do, a la the Davidic Servant. Joseph Smith was a very, very tough act to follow for any of the succeeding Presidents of the Church.

Compelling by force is the old way of tyranny. The CIA didn’t spend fifty years at 134 universities studying how to manipulate emotions via propaganda, false flags, infiltrating religious belief systems, co-opting entertainment, and creating cancel culture, critical race theology and lgbtq culture, so they could help Americans get in touch with their feelings. They control you with your emotions instead of a gun. They are not working on your behalf. They are working to control you until, as the former CIA director William Casey (1981-1987) said, everything you believe is a lie.

And while they control and manipulate you they’ve also convinced you that you’re exercising some sort of personal agency. Mwah ha ha!!!

The final winding up scenes on earth are not the struggle between freedom and tyranny with agency being the prize. The final battle is about deception and the ability to recognize tyranny and fraud dressed up as agency and truth.


*Note on the William Casey quote:

“I am the source for this quote, which was indeed said by CIA Director William Casey at an early February 1981 meeting of the newly elected President Reagan with his new cabinet secretaries to report to him on what they had learned about their agencies in the first couple of weeks of the administration. The meeting was in the Roosevelt Room in the West Wing of the White House, not far from the Cabinet Room. I was present at the meeting as Assistant to the chief domestic policy adviser to the President. Casey first told Reagan that he had been astonished to discover that over 80 percent of the ‘intelligence’ that the analysis side of the CIA produced was based on open public sources like newspapers and magazines. As he did to all the other secretaries of their departments and agencies, Reagan asked what he saw as his goal as director for the CIA, to which he replied with this quote, which I recorded in my notes of the meeting as he said it. Shortly thereafter I told Senior White House correspondent Sarah McClendon, who was a close friend and colleague, who in turn made it public.”
— Barbara Honegger

[SimpleSaint]

Why do I get the impression that some people think the Lord wants us to fix our problems by inventing vaccines and feeding the hungry but fixing problems in the church is totally off limits?

It seems somewhat of a prideful way of thinking that we can do no wrong and that our leaders are always in direct communication with God, no matter what. Oh, SEC fine for not being upfront and honest? Just a little slap on the hand. Seems to fulfill this scripture:

"Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark." 2 Nephi 28:8-9

Every time I read that scripture I think of the second anointing because they are basically told they can do anything other than murder or deny the HG and they go directly to the CK after having their few stripes aka the buffetings of Satan.

Interesting.. I've only recently been hearing about the second anointing. Is that a long the same vein as making one's calling and election made sure, aka securing your spot in heaven?

[Telavian]

Interesting.. I've only recently been hearing about the second anointing. Is that a long the same vein as making one's calling and election made sure, aka securing your spot in heaven?

Yes. It is essentially an ordinance that promises exaltation. It takes what was God's prerogative and moves it to man's.