LDS Freedom Forum

marc wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 4:37 pm And there's the rub.

We had this same discussion elsewhere. How many 8 year olds throughout history have had personal visits from Christ?
If you can't then that means they are all lost, correct?

Telavian wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 5:12 pm

marc wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 4:42 pm And we ARE less than the dust of the Earth for even the dust obeys God when commanded to move.

I figured you would respond like that.

So we are either of infinite worth if we obey God with perfectness, otherwise we are of no value.

Maybe dust of the earth doesn’t have a veil like we do. Hehe But we are made from the dust of the earth!
I feel like if we were in the presence of God that we would obey him. It’s being here with a veil that gives us more of a choice.
But yeah, Lucifer and others rebelled against God, in the presence of God. That’s why it was the unpardonable sin.

Telavian wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 5:14 pm

marc wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 4:37 pm And there's the rub.

We had this same discussion elsewhere. How many 8 year olds throughout history have had personal visits from Christ?
If you can't then that means they are all lost, correct?

No. False equivalence fallacy. In the last few posts, you have asked questions to which the answers can be found in the scriptures including this one. But if you must ask them, then there's no point in discussing anything relating to Rob at this point. I wish you a good evening.

We are God’s masterpiece.

Ephesians 2:10 KJV
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

NLT
For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

marc wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 5:34 pm No. False equivalence fallacy. In the last few posts, you have asked questions to which the answers can be found in the scriptures including this one. But if you must ask them, then there's no point in discussing anything relating to Rob at this point. I wish you a good evening.

This is how you ended our last conversation also. You say a personal visit from Christ is required. I said that is unrealistic in all cases. You say I am scripturally illiterate and then check out.
If a personal visit from Christ is not required, then why care about Rob's visit? Which supposedly makes him more special than everyone else.

Telavian wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 6:10 pm

marc wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 5:34 pm No. False equivalence fallacy. In the last few posts, you have asked questions to which the answers can be found in the scriptures including this one. But if you must ask them, then there's no point in discussing anything relating to Rob at this point. I wish you a good evening.

This is how you ended our last conversation also. You say a personal visit from Christ is required. I said that is unrealistic in all cases. You say I am scripturally illiterate and then check out.
If a personal visit from Christ is not required, then why care about Rob's visit? Which supposedly makes him more special than everyone else.

Well, I asked you some questions, none of which you answered, and then you bombarded me with questions of your own and followed them with assumptions. I did not say a visit was "required." What I did indicate was receiving such a visit as the brother of Jared advances your judgment without having to guess and hope that you are saved or will be saved. But IF you DO want to rend the veil of unbelief which Jesus said we must do (Ether 4), then we ought to take that very seriously. If you want to have an edifying discussion with me, then please answer my questions if you want me to answer yours. If not, then have a good evening.

marc wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 6:15 pm Well, I asked you some questions, none of which you answered, and then you bombarded me with questions of your own and followed them with assumptions. I did not say a visit was "required." What I did indicate was receiving such a visit as the brother of Jared advances your judgment without having to guess and hope that you are saved or will be saved. But IF you DO want to rend the veil of unbelief which Jesus said we must do (Ether 4), then we ought to take that very seriously. If you want to have an edifying discussion with me, then please answer my questions if you want me to answer yours. If not, then have a good evening.

You asked a single question:
"IF you do not have such a covenant or "knowledge," then how do you suppose you should go about obtaining it, assuming you even want it?"

One way to get this knowledge is of course from others. However, another way is to get it from God.
I referenced Abraham who was born into idolatry and sought God directly and found him.
I referenced Joseph who saw God even though he was under the false traditions of his fathers.

You interpreted both as ignoring your question.

Telavian wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 6:24 pm

marc wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 6:15 pm Well, I asked you some questions, none of which you answered, and then you bombarded me with questions of your own and followed them with assumptions. I did not say a visit was "required." What I did indicate was receiving such a visit as the brother of Jared advances your judgment without having to guess and hope that you are saved or will be saved. But IF you DO want to rend the veil of unbelief which Jesus said we must do (Ether 4), then we ought to take that very seriously. If you want to have an edifying discussion with me, then please answer my questions if you want me to answer yours. If not, then have a good evening.

You asked a single question:
"IF you do not have such a covenant or "knowledge," then how do you suppose you should go about obtaining it, assuming you even want it?"

One way to get this knowledge is of course from others. However, another way is to get it from God.
I referenced Abraham who was born into idolatry and sought God directly and found him.
I referenced Joseph who saw God even though he was under the false traditions of his fathers.

Ah, ok. There is a difference between obtaining knowledge about God and obtaining a knowledge that you have been redeemed by God. The first is obtained through testimony of others as you mentioned, but also through scripture study, etc. The Lectures on Faith is precisely what this is about. Then there is knowledge given to you by God as in the example I cited in Ether 3. Another example is JST Genesis 14:

27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;
29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.
30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself;

Do you see the difference? In the latter example, you obtain knowledge given to you directly by God. This can also be referred to as the testimony of Jesus. Consider Jesus Christ testifying to you with an oath as He did with Enoch (and others like Moses, bro of Jared, etc) that you have part in His kingdom. This is the crux of the matter. All the world, including atheists have knowledge that a historical figure named Jesus walked the Earth. More valiant Christians have knowledge through scripture study what the Atonement means for them, etc. But that is not the knowledge that is the point of this discussion. I hope this makes more sense and sheds a greater light on the matter.

FrankOne wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 10:18 am

Silver Pie wrote: ↑October 18th, 2023, 1:10 pm I think someone's buttons got pushed. My experience is that we get furious if we feel we are on shaky ground. We may not admit that, even to ourselves. To liken critical thinking to crucifying Christ shows me that the poster might very well be afraid.

The more we want something to be true, the more we focus on it to the exclusion of everything else.

i love the words above. it would be effective to put these at the top of every thread and required reading before posting.

Here’s a good one—and relevant:
Sometimes what we see and hear is what we’re programmed to see and hear.

Telavian wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 5:12 pm

marc wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 4:42 pm And we ARE less than the dust of the Earth for even the dust obeys God when commanded to move.

I figured you would respond like that.

So we are either of infinite worth if we obey God with perfectness, otherwise we are of no value.

Maybe it’s God that gives value. Therefore, to what measure we submit to God gives us value. Otherwise we’re just a shell of self-limited potential.

Minerals in the ground have no value.

Just because the minerals have no current value doesn’t mean they don’t have potential.

It is only after they are dug up and refined that they becomes useful or in other words valuable.

Thus it is with mankind. Until we are refined we are less than the dust. God can see our potential however and because He loves us it becomes his work to begin the refining process in our lives — to make us valuable.

jack wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 4:53 am Minerals in the ground have no value.

Just because the minerals have no current value doesn’t mean they don’t have potential.

It is only after they are dug up and refined that they becomes useful or in other words valuable.

Thus it is with mankind. Until we are refined we are less than the dust. God can see our potential however and because He loves us it becomes his work to begin the refining process in our lives — to make us valuable.

All of God’s creations have immense value to Him. Minerals included. All matter vibrates and has life. It is my opinion that all material and matter is capable of some level of awareness. In Vinny Tolman’s NDE he talks extensively about experiencing grass, flowers, bugs, and water in heaven. In a follow up interview he said that he could probably write a one thousand page book on grass alone.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 6:38 am

jack wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 4:53 am Minerals in the ground have no value.

Just because the minerals have no current value doesn’t mean they don’t have potential.

It is only after they are dug up and refined that they becomes useful or in other words valuable.

Thus it is with mankind. Until we are refined we are less than the dust. God can see our potential however and because He loves us it becomes his work to begin the refining process in our lives — to make us valuable.

All of God’s creations have immense value to Him. Minerals included. All matter vibrates and has life. It is my opinion that all material and matter is capable of some level of awareness. In Vinny Tolman’s NDE he talks extensively about experiencing grass, flowers, bugs, and water in heaven. In a follow up interview he said that he could probably write a one thousand page book on grass alone.

All matter contains intelligence imho, and all intelligence is just on a progression journey towards higher vibration. All just my 2 cents, of course.
I find the Law of One fascinating. Not sure if it is true, but it is worth pondering at least I find it so.

marc wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 6:32 pm Do you see the difference? In the latter example, you obtain knowledge given to you directly by God. This can also be referred to as the testimony of Jesus. Consider Jesus Christ testifying to you with an oath as He did with Enoch (and others like Moses, bro of Jared, etc) that you have part in His kingdom. This is the crux of the matter. All the world, including atheists have knowledge that a historical figure named Jesus walked the Earth. More valiant Christians have knowledge through scripture study what the Atonement means for them, etc. But that is not the knowledge that is the point of this discussion. I hope this makes more sense and sheds a greater light on the matter.

Yes I see the difference. That is not really what I was referring to.
What does that knowledge mean though and why should it matter?

Suppose Satan appeared as an angel of light and said you were redeemed from the fall. You would have certain knowledge of your redemption, correct?
Suppose you took a magic mushroom and had a very similar encounter in your mind. You would have certain knowledge, correct?

The Anti-Christ will perform miracles, do all manner of amazing things, and part the veil for his followers. However, this knowledge means what exactly?

Knowledge being the key between one state and another sounds exactly like Gnosticism. As Rob teaches, secret "knowledge" is what separates those with keys from those without. It is knowledge that saves. It is knowledge that empowers. It is knowledge that accesses God. Knowledge is what make God a god, yet the devils also have this knowledge.

In this whole process God and his power is missing. The only thing that matters is me seeking after lost arcane knowledge that will unlock the mysteries of heaven. It all honestly sounds like the fantasy books I read as a kid.

Jesus gave His life for all men because HE saw their value and potential- regardless of whether or not they repent. His life was still given. Us being less than the dust of the earth just means that dust will obey heaven. Ontologically speaking we are made from the dust. So we can't be "less" than as in worth. It is that we are "less" than in submission and obeying. We arent fulfilling the potential that God sees in us. In Genesis God says He will make Abraham's offspring like the dust of the earth- i.e. in number. Context matters. More often than not we as Mormon's will take scripture out of context. Helaman even explains what he means by sayingo ther things obey. Value and worth and different than fulfilling potential. From dust mountains and valleys are made- from our dust, unless we submit, we are "less" because we aren't fulfilling the potential to become more. Dust became man. Man can become like Christ- through Christ because as Telavians says of the power of Heaven and God's great love towards us our created value.

Jonesy wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 3:13 am Here’s a good one—and relevant:

Sometimes what we see and hear is what we’re programmed to see and hear.

Well now I need to know what they were chanting!

I read this book called Left in the Dark that talked a lot about this. It’s super interesting. We live in a very left brained society, focused on science, technology, logic and so forth. But we need both sides of our brains. We are imbalanced with just using the left side, and he describes how the left brain holds a kind of tyranny over the right brain. The left brain even lies to itself so as to keep being “logical”. You can see it now in science. Scientists completely disregard facts in order to uphold what has to be “true”. They will design flawed experiments to try to get the outcome they desire, even though their scientific training definitely taught them how NOT to do that. Fascinating book and phenomenon.

Telavian wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 7:33 am

marc wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 6:32 pm Do you see the difference? In the latter example, you obtain knowledge given to you directly by God. This can also be referred to as the testimony of Jesus. Consider Jesus Christ testifying to you with an oath as He did with Enoch (and others like Moses, bro of Jared, etc) that you have part in His kingdom. This is the crux of the matter. All the world, including atheists have knowledge that a historical figure named Jesus walked the Earth. More valiant Christians have knowledge through scripture study what the Atonement means for them, etc. But that is not the knowledge that is the point of this discussion. I hope this makes more sense and sheds a greater light on the matter.

Yes I see the difference. That is not really what I was referring to.
What does that knowledge mean though and why should it matter?

Suppose Satan appeared as an angel of light and said you were redeemed from the fall. You would have certain knowledge of your redemption, correct?
Suppose you took a magic mushroom and had a very similar encounter in your mind. You would have certain knowledge, correct?

The Anti-Christ will perform miracles, do all manner of amazing things, and part the veil for his followers. However, this knowledge means what exactly?

Knowledge being the key between one state and another sounds exactly like Gnosticism. As Rob teaches, secret "knowledge" is what separates those with keys from those without. It is knowledge that saves. It is knowledge that empowers. It is knowledge that accesses God. Knowledge is what make God a god, yet the devils also have this knowledge.

In this whole process God and his power is missing. The only thing that matters is me seeking after lost arcane knowledge that will unlock the mysteries of heaven. It all honestly sounds like the fantasy books I read as a kid.

Good points. And it may explain why there are so many who claim to have seen Jesus, who then disagree with each other over every doctrinal thing you can imagine.

Reminds me of Lori Vallow too. She seems to believe 100% that she has seen Heavenly Father, Heavenly Mother and Jesus, and that it was okay to have her kids killed because they had become zombies. Her friend Zulema testified in the trial that she saw Heavenly Father, Heavenly Mother and Jesus in the temple. I think that’s why she kept listening to Chad and Lori and hanging out with them and believing them for so long even though they were obviously going off the deep end and people were starting to die off. Because if you saw God, you would believe you’re on the right path. That you’re “redeemed from the fall”.

Damn near everyone who claims to have seen God goes bad at some point. Usually it's polygamy that raises it's ugly head. That being said I hope to never see God in the flesh.

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 8:21 am

Telavian wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 7:33 am

marc wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 6:32 pm Do you see the difference? In the latter example, you obtain knowledge given to you directly by God. This can also be referred to as the testimony of Jesus. Consider Jesus Christ testifying to you with an oath as He did with Enoch (and others like Moses, bro of Jared, etc) that you have part in His kingdom. This is the crux of the matter. All the world, including atheists have knowledge that a historical figure named Jesus walked the Earth. More valiant Christians have knowledge through scripture study what the Atonement means for them, etc. But that is not the knowledge that is the point of this discussion. I hope this makes more sense and sheds a greater light on the matter.

Yes I see the difference. That is not really what I was referring to.
What does that knowledge mean though and why should it matter?

Suppose Satan appeared as an angel of light and said you were redeemed from the fall. You would have certain knowledge of your redemption, correct?
Suppose you took a magic mushroom and had a very similar encounter in your mind. You would have certain knowledge, correct?

The Anti-Christ will perform miracles, do all manner of amazing things, and part the veil for his followers. However, this knowledge means what exactly?

Knowledge being the key between one state and another sounds exactly like Gnosticism. As Rob teaches, secret "knowledge" is what separates those with keys from those without. It is knowledge that saves. It is knowledge that empowers. It is knowledge that accesses God. Knowledge is what make God a god, yet the devils also have this knowledge.

In this whole process God and his power is missing. The only thing that matters is me seeking after lost arcane knowledge that will unlock the mysteries of heaven. It all honestly sounds like the fantasy books I read as a kid.

Good points. And it may explain why there are so many who claim to have seen Jesus, who then disagree with each other over every doctrinal thing you can imagine.

Reminds me of Lori Vallow too. She seems to believe 100% that she has seen Heavenly Father, Heavenly Mother and Jesus, and that it was okay to have her kids killed because they had become zombies. Her friend Zulema testified in the trial that she saw Heavenly Father, Heavenly Mother and Jesus in the temple. I think that’s why she kept listening to Chad and Lori and hanging out with them and believing them for so long even though they were obviously going off the deep end and people were starting to die off. Because if you saw God, you would believe you’re on the right path. That you’re “redeemed from the fall”.

It's the danger of "seeking" after signs instead of trusting in God and not paying attention to "fruits" Old testament gets pretty deep into many people actually experiencing visions, but those visions not being from God. That the vain imagination can conjure up many things- it also demonstrated that though one may "see" God- thye don't know Him. For to know God = eternal life, not seeing Him. To know God means to become love. Anyone who says they know God but hates their brother is a liar. Anyone who does not love, does not know God. (1 John) - regardless of how many time they claim to have or may ahve "seen" Him.

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 8:21 am Good points. And it may explain why there are so many who claim to have seen Jesus, who then disagree with each other over every doctrinal thing you can imagine.

I have had 2 people contact me so far on my YT channel who have told me they are the Davidic Servant. I honestly don't know what makes someone think this. I would imagine in their mind it is true. However, the only thing I see from them is very long mostly meandering messages.

This reminds me of people who have either done hard drugs or had a psychotic break who start having conversations with trees and such. They live in a completely different world than everyone else, however in their mind it is all totally real.

If you actually think about it their reality may be more real than ours. We just don't see things as they really are.

Telavian wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 7:33 am

marc wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2023, 6:32 pm Do you see the difference? In the latter example, you obtain knowledge given to you directly by God. This can also be referred to as the testimony of Jesus. Consider Jesus Christ testifying to you with an oath as He did with Enoch (and others like Moses, bro of Jared, etc) that you have part in His kingdom. This is the crux of the matter. All the world, including atheists have knowledge that a historical figure named Jesus walked the Earth. More valiant Christians have knowledge through scripture study what the Atonement means for them, etc. But that is not the knowledge that is the point of this discussion. I hope this makes more sense and sheds a greater light on the matter.

Yes I see the difference. That is not really what I was referring to.
What does that knowledge mean though and why should it matter?

It means exactly what it says. It should matter if you prefer endless joy over endless misery after this life. Maybe you can elaborate on what kind of answer you are looking for if this isn't enough?

Suppose Satan appeared as an angel of light and said you were redeemed from the fall. You would have certain knowledge of your redemption, correct?
Suppose you took a magic mushroom and had a very similar encounter in your mind. You would have certain knowledge, correct?

You are presupposing events with preconceived notions which doesn't help and only produces doubt and fear. But if you prefer a more substantial answer/example, consider the following:

Moses 1:11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.
12 And it came to pass that when Moses had said these words, behold, Satan came tempting him, saying: Moses, son of man, worship me.
13 And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou? For behold, I am a son of God, in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory, that I should worship thee?
14 For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely?
15 Blessed be the name of my God, for his Spirit hath not altogether withdrawn from me, or else where is thy glory, for it is darkness unto me? And I can judge between thee and God; for God said unto me: Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve.
16 Get thee hence, Satan; deceive me not; for God said unto me: Thou art after the similitude of mine Only Begotten.

The Anti-Christ will perform miracles, do all manner of amazing things, and part the veil for his followers. However, this knowledge means what exactly?

Again, presupposing. But if you don't have a firm foundation upon which your feet are planted, then yes, you will naturally be tossed around like a leaf on the wind. You will not have the experience of discerning between Christ and Anti-Christ. In other words, it sounds like your present condition.

Knowledge being the key between one state and another sounds exactly like Gnosticism. As Rob teaches, secret "knowledge" is what separates those with keys from those without. It is knowledge that saves. It is knowledge that empowers. It is knowledge that accesses God. Knowledge is what make God a god, yet the devils also have this knowledge.

I quoted Ether chapter 3 and JST Genesis 14 and mentioned Lectures on Faith explaining "knowledge." If Rob is not to your preference, do the scriptures suffice? If not, why?

In this whole process God and his power is missing. The only thing that matters is me seeking after lost arcane knowledge that will unlock the mysteries of heaven. It all honestly sounds like the fantasy books I read as a kid.

No. On the contrary, His power is very manifest. I've laid out two scriptural examples now just how. It sounds like you much prefer your present condition over seeking Jesus Christ's face. There are many scriptures in the standard works that admonish you to seek Christ's face. I don't know your position about the scriptures or Jesus Christ for that matter. I'll just add the following quote:

“A ship is always safe at the shore, but that is not what it is built for.”

Maybe you much prefer remaining docked at the shore or just sailing around in circles near the shore and that is all you care for. I don't know. You're kind of a mystery.

Take it as you will. I am more inclined to believe it than I have for any other claimant previously. I have some soul searching to do.

Original_Intent wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 4:08 pm Take it as you will. I am more inclined to believe it than I have for any other claimant previously. I have some soul searching to do.

I watched it earlier today at work. I listen to a lot of books, podcasts, etc while I'm working. An interesting amount of subject matter which Rob has introduced in the last year or two has also serendipitously been discussed by Denver over the course of the last ten or fifteen years. It's fascinating to follow along.

marc wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 12:53 pm Maybe you much prefer remaining docked at the shore or just sailing around in circles near the shore and that is all you care for. I don't know. You're kind of a mystery.

A lot of assumptions which strangely seem to be focused towards me in a negative light.

Last year some time I was earnestly seeking a divine experience with God. I had an undeniable experience where I felt a tangible presence, however I came to realize I was seeking Christ only to seek him. I had no reason other than I was told it was important.

I realized that God already speaks to me, and I know he is guiding me. Of course, I can learn to listen to him better, but I am really not sure how my life would be different if he appeared to me. I already live a very simple focused life. I already know God lives. I already have dedicated my life to him. I don't need constant direction but am learning to be an agent unto myself.

If you want to know though. In my perfect world I would be financially independent, and I would spend all my time helping others to do the same. Babylon is a chain around our necks that is constantly distracting us. There is very little this world has to offer me and if given a choice I would gladly leave it. The only reason to stay is to help others along the way.

Telavian wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 5:01 pm

marc wrote: ↑October 24th, 2023, 12:53 pm Maybe you much prefer remaining docked at the shore or just sailing around in circles near the shore and that is all you care for. I don't know. You're kind of a mystery.

A lot of assumptions which strangely seem to be focused towards me in a negative light.

Last year some time I was earnestly seeking a divine experience with God. I had an undeniable experience where I felt a tangible presence, however I came to realize I was seeking Christ only to seek him. I had no reason other than I was told it was important.

I realized that God already speaks to me, and I know he is guiding me. Of course, I can learn to listen to him better, but I am really not sure how my life would be different if he appeared to me. I already live a very simple focused life. I already know God lives. I already have dedicated my life to him. I don't need constant direction but am learning to be an agent unto myself.

If you want to know though. In my perfect world I would be financially independent, and I would spend all my time helping others to do the same. Babylon is a chain around our necks that is constantly distracting us. There is very little this world has to offer me and if given a choice I would gladly leave it. The only reason to stay is to help others along the way.

You sound like a person after my own heart. I apologize about the assumptions on my part. I was genuinely trying to understand you so I created a baseline based on limited information. I used to frequent this forum a LOT back in the day so I really don't know many newer people here. I definitely believe that God already speaks to you and in more ways than you probably realize. Various disciples seek His face for various reasons, some simply to consume it on their lusts (idle curiosity), but others desire to fully realize the relationship which He personally promised to those who seek Him because they love Him. I believe you love Him so I believe you can seek Him for the right reason. I am also weary of this fallen Babylonian world. I'm also getting old and tired. Anyway, thank you for sharing more about yourself.