What is womens’ relationship with priesthood?

[fractal_light_harvest]

Based on the previous poll I became interested to explore another topic that came from that discussion: if women can ever hold priesthood? and if so under what circumstances can they hold it?

This is not meant to offend or get a rise out of anyone, male or female or insinuate/imply anything based on the results. I’m just honestly interested to know what people think about this topic on the forum . I hope it’s not too sensitive to ask this. Please feel free to add any options if you feel I failed to list them. The main thing I’m looking to gain *personally* is see where people sit on this topic and understand what all the views are about it and why people hold these views and if others are interested in this topic to or not. I also think this is a very “theoretical” topic which could be considered speculative by many. I don’t intend it as “hard” doctrine.

[Telavian]

I think priesthood is some connection to a fundamental force of life. If a more righteous women needs something does she need to wait for a less righteous man to say certain words?

[Fred]

Jesus looked after the women, but then the women also looked after him. He did not place unnecessary responsibilities on them as they already had the massive responsibility of bearing and raising children. Faith is not gender specific and so either gender has equal capability to ask God for help. I have seen no indication that Priesthood has any guarantees. I do not see what the fuss is about. Joseph Smith had no priesthood and received a visitation. Priesthood is obviously not required.

[Dave62]

Having had a very interesting discussion with a Buddhist one time when I was teaching in Japan, I learnt that Shinto is mostly concerned with bringing life into the world. Buddhism is mostly concerned with life passing from this world. Hence their good relationship in the Japanese context. I wonder if Priesthood is the same. I wonder if women were engaged in preparing life to come into the world both before and during mortality. Everything we do in the Priesthood is mostly concerned with preparing people to move from this life to the next stages of our progression.

[fractal_light_harvest]

Having had a very interesting discussion with a Buddhist one time when I was teaching in Japan, I learnt that Shinto is mostly concerned with bringing life into the world. Buddhism is mostly concerned with life passing from this world. Hence their good relationship in the Japanese context. I wonder if Priesthood is the same. I wonder if women were engaged in preparing life to come into the world both before and during mortality. Everything we do in the Priesthood is mostly concerned with preparing people to move from this life to the next stages of our progression.

Hmmm….so do you see Shinto as being an expression of life bringing and is associated with female priestesshood and Buddhism as as an expression of preparing for death and is associated with male priesthood then?

[Dave62]

Having had a very interesting discussion with a Buddhist one time when I was teaching in Japan, I learnt that Shinto is mostly concerned with bringing life into the world. Buddhism is mostly concerned with life passing from this world. Hence their good relationship in the Japanese context. I wonder if Priesthood is the same. I wonder if women were engaged in preparing life to come into the world both before and during mortality. Everything we do in the Priesthood is mostly concerned with preparing people to move from this life to the next stages of our progression.

Hmmm….so do you see Shinto as being an expression of life bringing and is associated with female priestesshood and Buddhism as as an expression of preparing for death and is associated with male priesthood then?

I think so...

[randyps]

I do not see what the fuss is about. Joseph Smith had no priesthood and received a visitation. Priesthood is obviously not required.

A visitation is different from commanding the waters and land which the priesthood can do, not to mention "..turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers"

[OPMissionary]

I love how nothing in this religion is remotely clear.

[Chip]

I love how nothing in this religion is remotely clear.

Katie lays out what is to come for Jesus, His bride, and Kingdom marriages for men and women. Really cool!!!! Our church has some of these elements, but they're jumbled up with pieces in the wrong places, and a lot of stuff just missing. This is so awesome:

[Reluctant Watchman]

After spending more time studying gender and various roles, as well as the love Elohim have for all of Their children, I’ve found this passage in the Nemenhah Record to be the most enlightening on this subject. Many places in the Record you’ll find this same teaching. The Lord is instructing these people as to how priesthood is either conferred or ordained:

20) Behold, I do confer authority upon those men who would follow me and do the things they see me do. And unto such is made an ordination, that they may speak and act in my name, and be justified in so doing.

21) But I do not confer such upon the women, for they have of my Mother in Heaven that which I cannot give. Wherefore, I do ordain them.

22) But the Priesthood they have already cannot be given, nor taken away, but by that person who gave it. Wherefore, if there be any woman who desires to follow me and do the things they see me do, they are authorized from the foundation of the world, and I do justify them.

23) For, the daughters of Eve do sacrifice of themselves freely for the sake of all living. For this cause did Adam call her name Eve. For she is the Mother of all Living. (The Second Book of Samuel, Chapter 7)

Basically, what this means is that our Mother in Heaven gave gifts and endowments of the priesthood to all of Her daughters premortally. The Lord conferred the priesthood for men, whereas he only ordained the women. Any and all conferrals or ordinations were done through either a personal or spiritual manifestation from the Lord, which was ratified through a witness of the Spirit to the local elder or high priest.

It was more common for men to serve in priesthood roles as to provide them more opportunities to learn how to pattern their lives after the Savior. The priesthood was intended to humble those commissioned by the Lord as they strived to become a true servant of the people.

[Juliet]

When I went to the temple I asked and she said as a woman she received the priesthood to perform temple ordinances from Jesus Christ. I think the way the church operates is it does not give women callings in the priesthood for ordination because it is a man's responsibility to "birth" us spiritually while it's a woman's responsibility to "birth" us physically. So the spiritual operations to help us become born again is their job. And women should not be required to do this because women are not the same as men and the power of the priesthood flows in an order, from God to man, to his wife, to their children. And don't mess up the order of the Kingdom of God because it's like crossing the wires on a circuit. I picked the option that men have exoteric responsibility and women have esoteric responsibility because that resonates the most.

I would like to see women influencing things in the church by being allowed to work with their husband. For example, a bishop and his wife could work together counseling members, not just the bishop only. When Cain's descenants were setting up the kingdom of Satan on earth, it was 2 women who made sure it didn't happen by spilling the beans about what was going on. Women are very important when it comes to making sure things don't turn into some sort of secret society when things are only run by men.

[Reluctant Watchman]

When I went to the temple I asked and she said as a woman she received the priesthood to perform temple ordinances from Jesus Christ. I think the way the church operates is it does not give women callings in the priesthood for ordination because it is a man's responsibility to "birth" us spiritually while it's a woman's responsibility to "birth" us physically. So the spiritual operations to help us become born again is their job. And women should not be required to do this because women are not the same as men and the power of the priesthood flows in an order, from God to man, to his wife, to their children. And don't mess up the order of the Kingdom of God because it's like crossing the wires on a circuit. I picked the option that men have exoteric responsibility and women have esoteric responsibility because that resonates the most.

I would like to see women influencing things in the church by being allowed to work with their husband. For example, a bishop and his wife should council members, not just the bishop only. That's just asking to get the bishop involved in an extra marital affair in my opinion. And children don't need a wrinkled old man interviewing them all by himself for worthiness interview. The wife needs to protect the person being interviewed and keep things from getting creepy.

It is my understanding that spiritual birth only comes through the Holy Ghost. To be born again is a role specifically assigned to the Spirit and has direct correlation to the BoM of teaching of baptism of fire.

[Juliet]

When I went to the temple I asked and she said as a woman she received the priesthood to perform temple ordinances from Jesus Christ. I think the way the church operates is it does not give women callings in the priesthood for ordination because it is a man's responsibility to "birth" us spiritually while it's a woman's responsibility to "birth" us physically. So the spiritual operations to help us become born again is their job. And women should not be required to do this because women are not the same as men and the power of the priesthood flows in an order, from God to man, to his wife, to their children. And don't mess up the order of the Kingdom of God because it's like crossing the wires on a circuit. I picked the option that men have exoteric responsibility and women have esoteric responsibility because that resonates the most.

I would like to see women influencing things in the church by being allowed to work with their husband. For example, a bishop and his wife should council members, not just the bishop only. That's just asking to get the bishop involved in an extra marital affair in my opinion. And children don't need a wrinkled old man interviewing them all by himself for worthiness interview. The wife needs to protect the person being interviewed and keep things from getting creepy.

It is my understanding that spiritual birth only comes through the Holy Ghost. To be born again is a role specifically assigned to the Spirit and has direct correlation to the BoM of teaching of baptism of fire.

But men have a responsibility to facilitate this process. A husband is supposed to wash his wife in the word of God. Men are the leaders of their families so they either lead them to spiritual rebirth or they lead them some other way.

I once read someone's story about how when a couple gets married God gives the man a staff whereby he can lead his family and the wife gets a shawl representing the heart of the home.

There has been enough research proving that men's brains work differently than women's brains. Men's brains are needed to balance out a woman's tendency to suffer neurosis. Because they are more practical.

I mean, we could start a poll.. I am sure the ladies here can add their input. Have any ladies here ever beat their husband at chess? We can start there. Yes some women can... but it's not the majority I would venture. It may sound really misogynistic. But sounding misogynistic and being misogynistic are two different things. Women have been trying to prove they don't need men for decades and all it has done is litter the world with abortion centers. Women can't do it all and that's a blessing to recognize not a problem.

[Reluctant Watchman]

When I went to the temple I asked and she said as a woman she received the priesthood to perform temple ordinances from Jesus Christ. I think the way the church operates is it does not give women callings in the priesthood for ordination because it is a man's responsibility to "birth" us spiritually while it's a woman's responsibility to "birth" us physically. So the spiritual operations to help us become born again is their job. And women should not be required to do this because women are not the same as men and the power of the priesthood flows in an order, from God to man, to his wife, to their children. And don't mess up the order of the Kingdom of God because it's like crossing the wires on a circuit. I picked the option that men have exoteric responsibility and women have esoteric responsibility because that resonates the most.

I would like to see women influencing things in the church by being allowed to work with their husband. For example, a bishop and his wife should council members, not just the bishop only. That's just asking to get the bishop involved in an extra marital affair in my opinion. And children don't need a wrinkled old man interviewing them all by himself for worthiness interview. The wife needs to protect the person being interviewed and keep things from getting creepy.

It is my understanding that spiritual birth only comes through the Holy Ghost. To be born again is a role specifically assigned to the Spirit and has direct correlation to the BoM of teaching of baptism of fire.

But men have a responsibility to facilitate this process. A husband is supposed to wash his wife in the word of God. Men are the leaders of their families so they either lead them to spiritual rebirth or they lead them some other way.

I once read someone's story about how when a couple gets married God gives the man a staff whereby he can lead his family and the wife gets a shawl representing the heart of the home.

There has been enough research proving that men's brains work differently than women's brains. Men's brains are needed to balance out a woman's tendency to suffer neurosis. Because they are more practical.

I mean, we could start a poll.. I am sure the ladies here can add their input. Have any ladies here ever beat their husband at chess? We can start there. Yes some women can... but it's not the majority I would venture.

While I agree w/ the various mental and emotional differences between genders, the specific role of spiritual birth is not seated in the arm of flesh. It is not a husband’s role to spiritually birth his wife. This is akin to placing our spiritual progression in the hands of another. The Lord was quite clear in his teachings that we are to trust God alone. JST Mark 9 has been one of the more enlightening passages of scripture on this topic. Every segment in society can lead us astray. Parents, spouses, leaders, and prophets can all transgress.

[fractal_light_harvest]

I do not see what the fuss is about. Joseph Smith had no priesthood and received a visitation. Priesthood is obviously not required.

A visitation is different from commanding the waters and land which the priesthood can do, not to mention "..turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers"

That’s a decent point imo. Do you believe someone could be healed by or through another if neither had priesthood or do you believe priesthood is necessary for the person doing the healing?

[fractal_light_harvest]

I love how nothing in this religion is remotely clear.

Katie lays out what is to come for Jesus, His bride, and Kingdom marriages for men and women. Really cool!!!! Our church has some of these elements, but they're jumbled up with pieces in the wrong places, and a lot of stuff just missing. This is so awesome:

Haven’t watched this yet but going to.

[fractal_light_harvest]

When I went to the temple I asked and she said as a woman she received the priesthood to perform temple ordinances from Jesus Christ. I think the way the church operates is it does not give women callings in the priesthood for ordination because it is a man's responsibility to "birth" us spiritually while it's a woman's responsibility to "birth" us physically. So the spiritual operations to help us become born again is their job. And women should not be required to do this because women are not the same as men and the power of the priesthood flows in an order, from God to man, to his wife, to their children. And don't mess up the order of the Kingdom of God because it's like crossing the wires on a circuit. I picked the option that men have exoteric responsibility and women have esoteric responsibility because that resonates the most.

I would like to see women influencing things in the church by being allowed to work with their husband. For example, a bishop and his wife could work together counseling members, not just the bishop only. When Cain's descenants were setting up the kingdom of Satan on earth, it was 2 women who made sure it didn't happen by spilling the beans about what was going on. Women are very important when it comes to making sure things don't turn into some sort of secret society when things are only run by men.

These are some great points I believe. I’ve always thought it was lopsided to have men do so much. Especially when interviewing women and especially young women. Seems more proper to me to have another woman do that. I think the wires on a circuit metaphor might be accurate too!

[fractal_light_harvest]

At 25 votes, the majority of the site (or those who voted) believes that we don’t know whether women hold priesthood/priestesshood or not at 36%.

The next highest belief is that they do hold it but that it is different than male priesthood in some significant way.

The conclusion I’m drawing from this *personally* is that priesthood and the power that mortals can exercise from God that the scriptures describe is not very well understood in this generation or current time. I’m hoping that will change soon and we will have more light to go on to help us understand all this and how gender/sex plays into God’s power being manifest and having valid ordinances performed.

[tribrac]

In 2019 or maybe 2020 a temple worker told my daughter she was thrilled that President Nelson had revealed that girls were ordained with the priesthood.

She didn't say when....or how girls/women were ordained. Or limit it to only inside the temple. I wanted to ask her if girls were born ordained, or did it distill upon them when they were 8, or maybe when they started menstruation?

Was it limited to women born into the Covenant? If so, will adult convert women ever get the priesthhod? Or did they have to live without?

If not by laying on of hands and not by being born in the covenant, was it then by virtue of having a womb? And if so, why did we need Joseph to restore things if the woman priesthood had always continously existed, since wombs had never been taken from the earth.

And if all women are priestess, without any initiation, but men can only gain the priesthood by demonstrating a virtuous life and covenanting to live certain laws...does that mean this life is a probabtion for men only? So it makes sense that women should take a back seat with their predetermined salvation and let the men work out their salvation by having opportunities to demonstrate their commitment and faithfulness.

Its all confusion. But the nice lady cried as she said it, so it is probably true.

[fractal_light_harvest]

In 2019 or maybe 2020 a temple worker told my daughter she was thrilled that President Nelson had revealed that girls were ordained with the priesthood.

She didn't say when....or how girls/women were ordained. Or limit it to only inside the temple. I wanted to ask her if girls were born ordained, or did it distill upon them when they were 8, or maybe when they started menstruation?

Was it limited to women born into the Covenant? If so, will adult convert women ever get the priesthhod? Or did they have to live without?

If not by laying on of hands and not by being born in the covenant, was it then by virtue of having a womb? And if so, why did we need Joseph to restore things if the woman priesthood had always continously existed, since wombs had never been taken from the earth.

And if all women are priestess, without any initiation, but men can only gain the priesthood by demonstrating a virtuous life and covenanting to live certain laws...does that mean this life is a probabtion for men only? So it makes sense that women should take a back seat with their predetermined salvation and let the men work out their salvation by having opportunities to demonstrate their commitment and faithfulness.

Its all confusion. But the nice lady cried as she said it, so it is probably true.

All questions that are pertinent and valid given the times we live in. Assuming we don’t have a very good understanding of how women fit into priesthood then my thinking is we dont have a good understanding of how men do either.

[Serragon]

In 2019 or maybe 2020 a temple worker told my daughter she was thrilled that President Nelson had revealed that girls were ordained with the priesthood.

She didn't say when....or how girls/women were ordained. Or limit it to only inside the temple. I wanted to ask her if girls were born ordained, or did it distill upon them when they were 8, or maybe when they started menstruation?

Was it limited to women born into the Covenant? If so, will adult convert women ever get the priesthhod? Or did they have to live without?

If not by laying on of hands and not by being born in the covenant, was it then by virtue of having a womb? And if so, why did we need Joseph to restore things if the woman priesthood had always continously existed, since wombs had never been taken from the earth.

And if all women are priestess, without any initiation, but men can only gain the priesthood by demonstrating a virtuous life and covenanting to live certain laws...does that mean this life is a probabtion for men only? So it makes sense that women should take a back seat with their predetermined salvation and let the men work out their salvation by having opportunities to demonstrate their commitment and faithfulness.

Its all confusion. But the nice lady cried as she said it, so it is probably true.

Yes, many in my ward at the time marveled and reveled in the statements made by RMN, that women somehow have access to priesthood power through their covenants in an equal form to men ordained to the priesthood.

None could explain it in any sort of coherent way, but nonetheless it was considered a glorious revelation. And in typical RMN fashion, he stays in the abstract where it is safe and he can seem mysterious rather than get into the messy details of implementation and definition where he might actually be challenged on his understanding. The few times he has drifted into some actual implementation, like COVID vaccines, it hasn't been pretty for him.

I think it is clear that women hold the patriarchal priesthood with their husbands when they are sealed (D&C131:2) If they must be sealed to enter that priesthood, then those they are sealed to must enter that priesthood. And it is by this principle that women administer ordinances in the temple.

But it seems we allow women who are not sealed to anyone now administer ordinances in the temple, so it seems that either the church's understanding of this is quite muddled, or mine is. If not through the patriarchal priesthood, then where does the authority to administer these ordinances come from?

[[email protected]]

In 2019 or maybe 2020 a temple worker told my daughter she was thrilled that President Nelson had revealed that girls were ordained with the priesthood.

She didn't say when....or how girls/women were ordained. Or limit it to only inside the temple. I wanted to ask her if girls were born ordained, or did it distill upon them when they were 8, or maybe when they started menstruation?

Was it limited to women born into the Covenant? If so, will adult convert women ever get the priesthhod? Or did they have to live without?

If not by laying on of hands and not by being born in the covenant, was it then by virtue of having a womb? And if so, why did we need Joseph to restore things if the woman priesthood had always continously existed, since wombs had never been taken from the earth.

And if all women are priestess, without any initiation, but men can only gain the priesthood by demonstrating a virtuous life and covenanting to live certain laws...does that mean this life is a probabtion for men only? So it makes sense that women should take a back seat with their predetermined salvation and let the men work out their salvation by having opportunities to demonstrate their commitment and faithfulness.

Its all confusion. But the nice lady cried as she said it, so it is probably true.

Yes, many in my ward at the time marveled and reveled in the statements made by RMN, that women somehow have access to priesthood power through their covenants in an equal form to men ordained to the priesthood.

None could explain it in any sort of coherent way, but nonetheless it was considered a glorious revelation. And in typical RMN fashion, he stays in the abstract where it is safe and he can seem mysterious rather than get into the messy details of implementation and definition where he might actually be challenged on his understanding. The few times he has drifted into some actual implementation, like COVID vaccines, it hasn't been pretty for him.

I think it is clear that women hold the patriarchal priesthood with their husbands when they are sealed (D&C131:2) If they must be sealed to enter that priesthood, then those they are sealed to must enter that priesthood. And it is by this principle that women administer ordinances in the temple.

But it seems we allow women who are not sealed to anyone now administer ordinances in the temple, so it seems that either the church's understanding of this is quite muddled, or mine is. If not through the patriarchal priesthood, then where does the authority to administer these ordinances come from?

When Nelson implemented the Temple Endowment changes in 2019 we also changed the Doctrine of the Priesthood and the spiritual relationship between men and women. Of course both the Church leadership and TBM members didn't want to admit this but that's exactly what happened. I do agree that LDS doctrine seems to indicate in the Celestial Kingdom, Priesthood authority is shared equally between women and their husbands and this is represented in the Temple, most notably during the Second Anointings received by the most elite members of the Church.

Having said that, I'm not really a fan of the Second Anointing as a whole. It seems like an extremely elitist initiation, and it doesn't seem scriptural or Christlike that a man or woman would have their judgement completed in this life and they could basically do whatever they want going forward.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Having said that, I'm not really a fan of the Second Anointing as a whole.

I would suggest this is the case because it is not taught correctly in the church.

[nightlight]

Nelson feels free to change the temple ordinance because the documents stored in the LDS archives show the same behavior since the first LDS temple was built

Nelson is not doing anything different than his predecessors



“History Is Written by the Victors”