Bombshell Study Finds 74% of COVID Vaccine Autopsy Deaths Caused by Vaccine, Censored by Lancet

[Reluctant Watchman]

Of course not...just following the dictates of their respective government...which is covered by inspiration...


https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... ng=eng#p22

...not to mention 12th Article of Faith...


https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 1?lang=eng

Who are the powers that be??? What does it mean to be subject?

Was not Covid-19 otherwise known as Operation Warp Speed a government operation? Did not the US Government (and it's subject entities) pay for the research? Are not the patents owned by the US Government (NIAID)? Did not the US Government starting under Trump and completing under Biden...pay for the marketing, the mRNA (DNA) delivery systems, and use all of it's power and influence to get the product to market and subsequently in the body of it's citizens?

Did not the Rockefeller Foundation recommend in May of 2020 in conjunction with John Hopkins Institute (operating under government grants) that in order to overcome vaccine hesitancy in the general population they needed to target trusted community leaders for their marketing...specifically faith based leaders? Did not the government use all of it's influence to carry out that strategic objective?

Rather than focus on symptoms...isn't it best to get to the root cause of the problem?

15's fault for abiding by divine directives? Being obedient to government directives?

Perhaps you expected them to toss all that out and openly rebel against the government with all the repercussions that entails? If so...do you live by your own expectations?

Jason, when will you and your church oppose government edicts? Per church culture, you follow the laws. What happens when the laws directly contradict Christ’s teachings? What happens when it becomes a crime to be a Christian? It is happening before our very eyes.

It's worse than that Reluctant; the church isn't following the law - our gov, and the "powers that be", which I believe is synonymous with the cabal/globalist/satan-worshipping, elite wealthy and descendants of the sanhedrin, are NOT following the constitution, which IS the Supreme Law of the Land - they are "inventing" law; engaging in creating law that is therefore "illegal", under the "color of law", which is a felony in and of itself, not to mention their traitorous actions against this country are punishable by death.

BTW, I hope to be proven wrong with all my heart, but this is exactly why I think we'll find Ezra'a Eagle prophecy to be correct, in that we will NEVER have another president of this country; The evil cabal that currently rules this country cannot afford to let anyone into power that will hold them accountable for their actions, so they will do anything to stop it, no matter (it's what they want) what they have to do to stop it, including nuclear war. They KNOW more and more people are seeing them for what they are, and it's making it harder and harder to "select" their evil politicians, so they'll just burn it all down. We are there folks; from now to selection 2024 is going to be catastrophic - but I couldn't even begin to describe exactly who, when, and where, what, or how; it's going to be chaos, and from virtually every direction, but I doubt Kennedy or Trump are alive by then, or at least shortly after... that's my take. We shall see! Exciting, scary times! Without my family to protect, it would be a whole lot less scary - watching any of them suffer and/or die will rip my heart out, even knowing it's nothing inGod's grand scheme of things, so I'm prepping like mad to be as prepared as possible!

Well said, and I agree. The laws have become corrupt, they have changed the law.

D&C 101

77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;
78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.
79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

Societies should be government by higher law (religious principles). But what the church teaches is the opposite, that the church is led around like a bull with a nose ring. “Go hither and thither.”

[Reluctant Watchman]

I highly suggest that LDS members awake to what has been taught. D&C 98

4 And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them.

5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.

6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.

8 I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.

9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.

10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.

“When wicked rule, the people mourn.”

[Nevervaxxed]

Exactly - it could not be any clearer... I truly scratch my head at the absolute mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance (CD) it takes to stay brainwashed. It boggles the mind. My brother-in-law is an extremely intelligent man - went to Stanford on a scholarship, lives and works back in St, Louis as a tech investor..re mean they would be doxxed and forced out of . Truly one of the most intelligent people I've ever known, and as woke as they come. Recently "selected" as a Stake President... friends with Romney, you get the picture. Then it occurred to me that to leave their (my sister also) cognitive dissonance would mean having their very rich comfortable highly respected lives, while being doxxed and destroyed... the elite people they rub shoulders with would throw them away like a cheap hair piece. These are very wealthy, high connected people. And they refuse to even engage me in any kind of debate, despite their so-called intelligence. They get upset, angry and extremely defensive if I even suggest the "killer jab" is exactly that... they help me understand the CD

[GeeR]

Perhaps you expected them to toss all that out and openly rebel against the government with all the repercussions that entails? If so...do you live by your own expectations?

Here's an interesting article by Connor Boyack on this very subject. It seems to have flickers of light ant truth. Hope we can all benefit from his insights on this question.

Mormons Making Friends with the Nazi Mammon of Unrighteousness

In June 1933, just a few months after Adolf Hitler rose to power in Germany, a convention of some seven thousand Jehovah’s Witnesses convened in Berlin. They unanimously adopted “A Declaration of Facts,” a document in which they established their opposition to the rising Nazi regime. Copies were sent to every government official they could identify; more than 2.5 million copies were disseminated.

The response was predictable—the German government criminalized their religious services and missionary work. Roughly half of their twenty thousand German members served terms in prison or a concentration camp. Several thousand died during incarceration due to hunger, exposure, or abuse. Over two hundred were tried in a Nazi court and executed.

As documented in Moroni and the Swastika, written by David Conley Nelson, this scenario stands at odds with how members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints acted towards and were treated by the same government. The book exhaustively documents the alarming degree to which church officials bent over backwards to appease, accommodate, and even proactively ingratiate themselves with Nazi leadership.

What becomes clear from the revealed history of interactions between Church officials and Nazi party leaders is the earnestness of the desire on the part of Mormon leaders to make friends with German rulers to ensure the safety of Church members and the ability of the Church’s missionary work to continue. The price was deemed worth it by leaders who—some reluctantly, and many cheerfully—modified church curriculum to remove any reference to Jews or Israel, including Sunday School lessons, hymns, and other material; included Nazi insignia, such as flags, and Hitler’s portrait, in Church meetings; played Hitler’s speeches during or after Church meetings, compelling congregants to listen; enthusiastically and reflexively repeating the “Heil Hitler” salute; expelling Jews from church services; excommunicating a rebel, Helmuth Hübener; denying legal assistance to Mormon Jews wishing to emigrate to America to escape the Hitler regime prior to the war; publishing op-eds and other material affirming that Nazis and Mormons shared several overlapping interests, and emphasizing that one could be a good Mormon and a good citizen of the Nazi state; and on and on.

Of course, this is alarming—but what I considered especially revealing, if unsurprising, was the revelation regarding how ingrained a misunderstanding of Church doctrine had become, leading to widespread submission to, if not active support of, the Nazi government. I refer specifically to the Twelfth Article of Faith, and section 134 of the Doctrine and Covenants—two reference points that receive frequent mention in the book, as they were repeatedly cited by lay German Mormons and high-ranking American church leaders as the basis for appeasing the Nazis and standing idly by while tyranny increasingly entrenched itself.

In the mid 1920s, for example, mission president Hugh J. Cannon told Berlin police of “the church’s belief in subjugation to local police and noted that the well-being of the Imperial Government was the object of their daily prayers.” One of his successors, Oliver Budge, informed the Gestapo in a 1933 letter that church members “are taught, especially, to be able to class themselves with the best citizens of the country, and to support, in the full sense of the word, the ordinances and laws of the town, the state, and the country in which they live… [W]e teach that the present party in power, and the laws governing the country, be supported by the members of the church.”

Lay members understood and internalized the message; one Mormon soldier who fought for the Nazi regime, when interviewed by the book’s author, simply stated that “Latter-day Saints should support the government!” Included with his reply was a copy of a 2004 Sunday School lesson manual featuring a quote from Church president Heber J. Grant stressing compliance with the Twelfth Article of Faith and Section 134 of the Doctrine and Covenants. In that lesson, President Grant is quoted as saying, “It is one of the Articles of our Faith to obey and uphold the laws of the land.” Following references to D&C 134, he also stated, “The Saints on either side [of war] have no course open to them but to support that government to which they owe allegiance.”

Unfortunately, I believe that these references—including the many that permeate the book—are incorrect. They rely upon an interpretation of these two scriptural provisions that is certainly commonplace, but is one that requires overlooking the actual textual construction.

First, the context of these references should be offered, even if it is ultimately dismissed by some who resolutely consider them divinely sanctioned scripture. The Articles of Faith were written by Joseph Smith, founding prophet of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, as part of an 1842 letter to the editor of the Chicago Democrat in response to questions regarding the founding and nature of this new religion. Claiming such a media response as tantamount to scripture is somewhat akin to attempting to canonize the transcript of President Gordon B. Hinckley’s interview on 60 minutes with Mike Wallace. Neither, of course, were claimed to be revelation. And as the Church’s own curriculum states, section 134 of the Doctrine and Covenants is not revelation: “It should be noted that in the minutes, and also in the introduction to this article on government, the brethren were careful to state that this declaration was accepted as the belief, or ‘opinion’ of the officers of the Church, and not as a revelation, and therefore does not hold the same place in the doctrines of the Church as do the revelations.”

As such, it might be easy to dismiss adherence to these provisions since they may lack the divine weight that some seek to impregnate into the pages from which we read them. But let’s accept, for conversation sake, the position that the average Mormon takes—that they are in fact binding upon church members.

How, then, are we bound?

The Twelfth Article of Faith reads as follows:

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

Most members of the Church focus only on the first part of this provision, asserting that we should subject ourselves to government, period, end of story. That position necessarily ignores the conjoining qualification wherein compliance is conditioned on the actions of those running the government. The correct reading of this Article stipulates that submission is predicated on these rulers obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. It therefore follows that when those in government are breaking the law, then our submission is not required. (Of course, this also requires understanding what law actually is, as it is not simply whatever mandates a group of government officials thinks up, however benevolent or barbaric.)

It becomes obvious, then, that pointing to this Article as the basis for unqualified allegiance to whatever government is in power is false. Exterminating Jews, for example, is not lawful, even if it is technically legal; God does not expect feckless submission to those who carry out such horrific acts.

But what of D&C 134, similarly referenced as a reason to play nice with those in power? The relevant passage of this “declaration of belief regarding governments and laws” reads:

We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.

As with the Twelfth Article of Faith, many Church members simply internalize only the first few words of this verse, leading them to incorrectly believe that God binds them to “sustain and uphold the [government] in which they reside,” period, end of story. But again, the qualifying conditions that follow make clear that such allegiance is predicated on lawful activity. Such support is required, we further read, while we are “protected in [our] inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments.” Sedition and rebellion “are unbecoming every citizen thus protected.”

A fair and plain reading of this scripture results in the same conclusion: a government that violates a person’s rights is not deserving of support—and at a minimum, there is no divine obligation to simply submit to the mandates of those in power.

Unfortunately, the incorrect interpretation of these passages is offered to readers of Moroni and the Swastika—an otherwise outstanding book I heartily recommend reading—whose author at the very introduction tells us that the Twelfth Article of Faith and D&C 134 together comprise an “important religious tenet” and constitute “a charge to cooperate with civil government however onerous it may be.”

Clearly, having the Church sanction rebellion against an oppressive military machine would be unwise; organizational opposition to a ruthless political regime would bring swift and fatal retaliation. However, while institutional defiance is strategically foolhardy, the question of individual resistance should be treated separately—and in that realm we must address whether God actually intends for each of his followers to follow orders from repressive regimes and respectable Republics alike.

Helmuth Hübener’s story provides a case study against which we can analyze this question. While the Church had been strenuously attempting to be considered friendly—or at least non-threatening—toward the Nazi regime, one of its members, a young teenage boy, was authoring scathing rebukes excoriating Adolf Hitler and his minions. These documents were disseminated furtively throughout Hübener’s town of Hamburg, and when caught, his friends were imprisoned for several years, while the 17-year-old ringleader—and faithful Mormon—was beheaded by guillotine. He was subsequently excommunicated by his rabidly pro-Nazi ecclesiastical leader, and his story was suppressed by BYU officials and Church leaders for years, citing sensitivities of upsetting communist leadership in East Germany with whom the Church was trying to build a relationship in order to facilitate church business and missionary work.

Few will dispute the wisdom of strategy, and the importance of picking one’s battles. It does little good to one’s self, family, congregation, or others to put up a quick fight and be executed. It is perhaps for this reason that—unlike the non-revelatory scriptures referenced earlier—God actually has stated, “this is wisdom, make unto yourselves friends with the mammon of unrighteousness, and they will not destroy you.” It follows the old adage of keeping your friends close and your enemies closer; there is logistical benefit in not incurring the wrath of a powerful foe.

But while strategy should be considered, that does not constitute a valid claim to argue that God absolutely forbids anything but servility to the state. To the extent that Helmuth’s story is known, he is praised as a freedom fighter—a brave and principled young man who stood up for his convictions, and who sought to popularize the truth. His excommunication—considered by many to never have been valid in the first place—was later rescinded. Books, plays, movies, and other media extol his heroism. It’s easy to recognize the virtue of his activism.
It’s also easy to cast aspersions on his contemporaries who courted favor with the very enemy Helmuth was fighting. How easy must it have been to follow the masses—to silently and idly accept the increasing levels of restrictions, first because they didn’t affect you, and later because circumstances were too severe to speak out?

The mind, in such circumstances, is desperate for self-soothing arguments that ameloriate one’s conscience. Thus did German Mormons embrace a number of myths regarding the Third Reich’s friendliness towards the faith: that Hitler had read the Book of Mormon; that he based his supposed health code on the Word of Wisdom; that his Winter Relief program—where Germans were told to eat a simple meal on the Second Sunday at donate saved funds to the war effort—was based on the church’s Fast Sunday program; that close parallels existed between the Nazi drive for racial purity and genealogical research, and the Church’s own quest for family history; and at worst, that Hitler himself was on a mission from God. Thus did Hübener’s pro-Nazi branch president tell his flock “about the importance of keeping the laws of the land and supporting and sustaining the Führer who was ordained of God.”

Sadly, sensitivities often trumped conscience, whether individually or institutionally. The Church’s effort to suppress Hübener’s story, detailed in length in this book, was spearheaded by Thomas S. Monson, who had been tasked with overseeing the Church’s efforts regarding East Germany. When approached by an Associated Press reporter inquiring as to why he had stopped BYU from continuing a very popular production of a play on Hübener’s life, and why research and publication of the story had been quashed, then-Elder Monson replied:
Who knows what was right or wrong then? I don’t know what we accomplish by dredging these things up and trying to sort them out.

It’s admittedly easy to play armchair quarterback and see the apparent misguidedness of censoring so important a story out of concerns that may have been unfounded. The motives of Elder Monson were, we must presume, sincere—he, like Church leaders for decades, had a fixed goal as the primary priority: keep missionary work going. These ends justified controversial means, whether ingratiating the Church with the Nazi regime from the highest levels, or controlling the flow of information in the decades that followed the war.

Helmuth’s story speaks to me. I believe he did what was right. And as the familiar primary tune counsels us, we are to “do what is right, let the consequence follow.” Put differently, ends don’t justify the means; does a crucial “end” such as perpetuating Church programs and allowing missionary work to continue allow us to support the problematic means listed above? It’s a pertinent question for the future, and one which deserves serious reflection—not to recommend institutional changes and counsel those in command of the Lord’s Church, but to ponder individual action and the degree to which one is willing or obligated to support an unsupportable government.

http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/mormon ... #more-3411

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

In researching and writing the story of Helmuth Hübener, the Latter-day Saint youth who was executed for distributing anti-Nazi literature in Germany during World War II,1 I learned of several other Hübener-like people in Nazi Germany.2 One such person, whom I shall call Bruno to preserve anonymity, was a young Latter-day Saint man who joined Hitler’s infamous elite force, the SS, and then had a change of heart. I had the privilege, a number of years ago now, to interview this gentleman at his home in Germany.

Here's the full BYU Studies article: https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/a-la ... tzstaffel/

[GeeR]

I found this little jewel of information on the internet concerning the 12 Article of Faith and thought you would appreciate it in its proper context.

"Actually, the 12th Article of Faith doesn't say that we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates. It says that in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law, we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates. The punctuation of the sentence makes this clear, and it is an important distinction, since it means that we actually believe that our deference to rulers is conditional. If the rulers aren't obeying the law, we aren't subject to them. This is consistent with the Declaration of Independence, which asserts that it is our duty to throw off rulers and governments that fail to protect our natural rights."

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Helmuth Hübener, born in Hamburg on 8 January 1925, came from an apolitical, religious family in Hamburg, Germany. He belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), as did his mother and grandparents. His adoptive father, Hugo, a Nazi sympathizer, gave him the name Hübener.

Since early childhood, Hübener had been a member of the Boy Scouts, an organization strongly supported by the LDS Church, but in 1935 the National Socialists banned scouting from Germany. He then joined the Hitler Youth, as required by the government, but quit after Kristallnacht in 1938, when the Nazis, including the Hitler Youth, destroyed Jewish businesses and homes.

When one of the leaders in his local congregation undertook to ban Jews from attending its religious services, Hübener found himself at odds with the new policy, but continued to attend services with like-minded friends as the Latter-day Saints locally debated the issue. His friend and fellow resistance fighter Rudolf "Rudi" Wobbe later reported that of the 2,000 Latter-day Saints in the Hamburg area, only seven were pro-Nazi, but five of them happened to be in his and Hübener's St. Georg Branch (congregation), thus stirring controversy with the majority who were non- or anti-Nazis.

After Hübener finished middle school in 1941, he began an apprenticeship in administration at the Hamburg Social Authority (Sozialbehörde). He met other apprentices there, one of whom, Gerhard Düwer, he would later recruit into his resistance movement. At a bathhouse, he met new friends, one of whom had a communist family background and, as a result, he began listening to enemy radio broadcasts. Listening to foreign media was at the time strictly forbidden in Nazi Germany, being considered a form of treason. In the summer of that same year, Hübener discovered his older half-brother Gerhard's shortwave radio in a hallway closet. It had been given to Gerhard earlier that year by a soldier returning from service in France.Helmuth began listening to the BBC on his own, and he used what he heard to compose various anti-National Socialist texts and anti-war leaflets, of which he also made many copies. The leaflets were designed to bring to people's attention how skewed the official reports about World War II from Berlin were, as well as to point out Adolf Hitler's, Joseph Goebbels', and other leading Nazis' criminal behaviour. Other themes covered by Hübener's writings were the war's futility and Germany's looming defeat. He also mentioned the mistreatment sometimes meted out in the Hitler Youth.

In one of his pamphlets, for example, he wrote:

"German boys! Do you know the country without freedom, the country of terror and tyranny? Yes, you know it well, but are afraid to talk about it. They have intimidated you to such an extent that you don't dare talk for fear of reprisals. Yes you are right; it is Germany – Hitler Germany! Through their unscrupulous terror tactics against young and old, men and women, they have succeeded in making you spineless puppets to do their bidding."
– Helmuth Hübener

In late 1941, his listening involved three friends: Karl-Heinz Schnibbe and Rudi Wobbe, both of whom were fellow Latter-day Saints, and later Gerhard Düwer. Hübener had them help him distribute about 60 different pamphlets, all containing typewritten material from the British broadcasts. They distributed them throughout Hamburg, using such methods as surreptitiously pinning them on bulletin boards, inserting them into letterboxes, and stuffing them in coat pockets.

On 5 February 1942, Hübener was arrested by the Gestapo at his workplace, the Hamburg Social Authority in the Bieberhaus in Hamburg. While trying to translate the pamphlets into French and have them distributed among prisoners of war, he had been noticed by co-worker and Nazi Party member Heinrich Mohn, who denounced him.

On 11 August 1942, aged 17, Hübener was tried as an adult by the Special People's Court (Volksgerichtshof) in Berlin, which had jurisdiction over matters of treason. Hübener was sentenced to death. After the sentence was read, Hübener faced the judges and said: "Now I must die, even though I have committed no crime. So now it's my turn, but your turn will come." He hoped his confrontational tactics would focus the judge's wrath on him and spare his companions.


On 27 October 1942, the proclamation from the Special People's Court (Volksgerichtshof) announces Hübener's execution.
As stated in the proclamation, Hübener was found guilty of conspiracy to commit high treason and treasonous furthering of the enemy's cause. He was sentenced not only to death, but also to permanent loss of his civil rights, which meant the prison guards were allowed to torture and abuse him, and he was not allowed bedding or blankets in his cold cell.

It was highly unusual for the Nazis to try an underaged defendant, much less sentence him to death, but the court stated that Hübener had shown more than average intelligence for a boy his age. This, along with his general and political knowledge, and his behaviour before the court, made Hübener, in the court's eyes, a boy with a far more developed mind than was usually to be found in someone of his age. For this reason, the court stated, Hübener was to be punished as an adult.

Hübener's lawyers, his mother, and the Berlin Gestapo appealed for clemency in his case, hoping to have his sentence commuted to life imprisonment. In their eyes, the fact that Hübener had confessed fully and shown himself to be still morally uncorrupted were points in his favour. The Reich Youth Leadership (Reichsjugendführung) disagreed, however, and stated that the danger posed by Hübener's activities to the German people's war effort made the death penalty necessary. On 27 October 1942, the Nazi Ministry of Justice upheld the Special People's Court verdict. Hübener was only told of the Ministry's decision at 1:05 pm on the scheduled day of execution.

On 27 October, at 8:13 pm, he was beheaded by guillotine in the execution room at Plötzensee Prison in Berlin. His two friends, Schnibbe and Wobbe, who had also been arrested, were given prison sentences of five and ten years respectively.

In 1937, the president of the LDS Church, Heber J. Grant, had visited Germany and urged the members to remain, get along, and not cause trouble.[citation needed] Consequently, some church members saw Hübener as a troublemaker who made things difficult for other Latter-day Saints in Germany. This recommendation did not change after Kristallnacht, which occurred the year following Grant's visit, after which he evacuated all non-German Latter-day Saint missionaries.

The local Latter-day Saint branch president, Arthur Zander (1907-1989), was a supporter of the Nazi Party,[citation needed] and had affixed a notice to the meetinghouse entrance stating "Jews not welcome". Ten days after the arrest of Hübener, on 15 February 1942, Zander claimed to have excommunicated the young man. The excommunication was also signed by the European mission president and many other leaders voiced their support.

The day of his execution, Hübener wrote to a fellow branch member, "I know that God lives and He will be the Just Judge in this matter… I look forward to seeing you in a better world!" (excerpt from a letter written by Hübener, the only one believed to still exist).

In 1946, four years later and after the war, Hübener was posthumously reinstated into the LDS Church by the new mission president, Max Zimmer, saying the excommunication was not carried through with the proper procedures. He was also posthumously rebaptized, ordained an elder, and endowed in 1948 to clarify that his membership in the church was never in doubt.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

I found this little jewel of information on the internet concerning the 12 Article of Faith and thought you would appreciate it in its proper context.

"Actually, the 12th Article of Faith doesn't say that we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates. It says that in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law, we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates. The punctuation of the sentence makes this clear, and it is an important distinction, since it means that we actually believe that our deference to rulers is conditional. If the rulers aren't obeying the law, we aren't subject to them. This is consistent with the Declaration of Independence, which asserts that it is our duty to throw off rulers and governments that fail to protect our natural rights."

That's exactly what is says in Romans. Support for rulers is conditional based on their following the law. But if you ask any member today they would say it isn't. IN other words, if everyone was a typical mormon in 1776, King George would still rule the colonies. LOL.

[Jason]

Are you Neo from the Matrix??!! jk

I do agree with you. It wasn’t very inspired what they did.

Of course not...just following the dictates of their respective government...which is covered by inspiration...

Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... ng=eng#p22

...not to mention 12th Article of Faith...

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 1?lang=eng

Who are the powers that be??? What does it mean to be subject?

Was not Covid-19 otherwise known as Operation Warp Speed a government operation? Did not the US Government (and it's subject entities) pay for the research? Are not the patents owned by the US Government (NIAID)? Did not the US Government starting under Trump and completing under Biden...pay for the marketing, the mRNA (DNA) delivery systems, and use all of it's power and influence to get the product to market and subsequently in the body of it's citizens?

Did not the Rockefeller Foundation recommend in May of 2020 in conjunction with John Hopkins Institute (operating under government grants) that in order to overcome vaccine hesitancy in the general population they needed to target trusted community leaders for their marketing...specifically faith based leaders? Did not the government use all of it's influence to carry out that strategic objective?

Rather than focus on symptoms...isn't it best to get to the root cause of the problem?

15's fault for abiding by divine directives? Being obedient to government directives?

Perhaps you expected them to toss all that out and openly rebel against the government with all the repercussions that entails? If so...do you live by your own expectations?

Jason, you bring up valid and difficult points... I think the Savior showed us the way; he followed the law of the land, but at the same time, stood up to and spoke against the powers that be. He called them out for their hypocrisy, and pointed out where they didn't adhere to their own preaching's, but although he never broke the law, he did and said the right thing knowing they would kill him for it - in other words, he "let the consequence follow". "Do what is RIGHT, let the consequence follow, BATTLE [legally, spiritually, honestly] for freedom in spirit and might"

Everyone has an opinion on it for sure.

Reality is it's easy to blame 15 individuals rather than acknowledging personal responsibility and accountability. Reality is the people as a whole sold out a long time ago thus choosing who the powers that be would be.

Ignoring President Grant’s objections, Utah cast the deciding vote to repeal Prohibition. An unhappy President Grant remarked that some members who sang “We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet” seemed to add the words, “provided he keeps his mouth shut politically.”

Well did King Mosiah speak when he made the declaration regarding the choices of the majority of the people and associated judgements which are now playing out...

But in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

My beloved brothers and sisters, I plead with you to increase your spiritual capacity to receive revelation.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

[Jason]

Perhaps you expected them to toss all that out and openly rebel against the government with all the repercussions that entails? If so...do you live by your own expectations?

Here's an interesting article by Connor Boyack on this very subject. It seems to have flickers of light ant truth. Hope we can all benefit from his insights on this question.

Mormons Making Friends with the Nazi Mammon of Unrighteousness

In June 1933, just a few months after Adolf Hitler rose to power in Germany, a convention of some seven thousand Jehovah’s Witnesses convened in Berlin. They unanimously adopted “A Declaration of Facts,” a document in which they established their opposition to the rising Nazi regime. Copies were sent to every government official they could identify; more than 2.5 million copies were disseminated.

The response was predictable—the German government criminalized their religious services and missionary work. Roughly half of their twenty thousand German members served terms in prison or a concentration camp. Several thousand died during incarceration due to hunger, exposure, or abuse. Over two hundred were tried in a Nazi court and executed.

As documented in Moroni and the Swastika, written by David Conley Nelson, this scenario stands at odds with how members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints acted towards and were treated by the same government. The book exhaustively documents the alarming degree to which church officials bent over backwards to appease, accommodate, and even proactively ingratiate themselves with Nazi leadership.

What becomes clear from the revealed history of interactions between Church officials and Nazi party leaders is the earnestness of the desire on the part of Mormon leaders to make friends with German rulers to ensure the safety of Church members and the ability of the Church’s missionary work to continue. The price was deemed worth it by leaders who—some reluctantly, and many cheerfully—modified church curriculum to remove any reference to Jews or Israel, including Sunday School lessons, hymns, and other material; included Nazi insignia, such as flags, and Hitler’s portrait, in Church meetings; played Hitler’s speeches during or after Church meetings, compelling congregants to listen; enthusiastically and reflexively repeating the “Heil Hitler” salute; expelling Jews from church services; excommunicating a rebel, Helmuth Hübener; denying legal assistance to Mormon Jews wishing to emigrate to America to escape the Hitler regime prior to the war; publishing op-eds and other material affirming that Nazis and Mormons shared several overlapping interests, and emphasizing that one could be a good Mormon and a good citizen of the Nazi state; and on and on.

Of course, this is alarming—but what I considered especially revealing, if unsurprising, was the revelation regarding how ingrained a misunderstanding of Church doctrine had become, leading to widespread submission to, if not active support of, the Nazi government. I refer specifically to the Twelfth Article of Faith, and section 134 of the Doctrine and Covenants—two reference points that receive frequent mention in the book, as they were repeatedly cited by lay German Mormons and high-ranking American church leaders as the basis for appeasing the Nazis and standing idly by while tyranny increasingly entrenched itself.

In the mid 1920s, for example, mission president Hugh J. Cannon told Berlin police of “the church’s belief in subjugation to local police and noted that the well-being of the Imperial Government was the object of their daily prayers.” One of his successors, Oliver Budge, informed the Gestapo in a 1933 letter that church members “are taught, especially, to be able to class themselves with the best citizens of the country, and to support, in the full sense of the word, the ordinances and laws of the town, the state, and the country in which they live… [W]e teach that the present party in power, and the laws governing the country, be supported by the members of the church.”

Lay members understood and internalized the message; one Mormon soldier who fought for the Nazi regime, when interviewed by the book’s author, simply stated that “Latter-day Saints should support the government!” Included with his reply was a copy of a 2004 Sunday School lesson manual featuring a quote from Church president Heber J. Grant stressing compliance with the Twelfth Article of Faith and Section 134 of the Doctrine and Covenants. In that lesson, President Grant is quoted as saying, “It is one of the Articles of our Faith to obey and uphold the laws of the land.” Following references to D&C 134, he also stated, “The Saints on either side [of war] have no course open to them but to support that government to which they owe allegiance.”

Unfortunately, I believe that these references—including the many that permeate the book—are incorrect. They rely upon an interpretation of these two scriptural provisions that is certainly commonplace, but is one that requires overlooking the actual textual construction.

First, the context of these references should be offered, even if it is ultimately dismissed by some who resolutely consider them divinely sanctioned scripture. The Articles of Faith were written by Joseph Smith, founding prophet of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, as part of an 1842 letter to the editor of the Chicago Democrat in response to questions regarding the founding and nature of this new religion. Claiming such a media response as tantamount to scripture is somewhat akin to attempting to canonize the transcript of President Gordon B. Hinckley’s interview on 60 minutes with Mike Wallace. Neither, of course, were claimed to be revelation. And as the Church’s own curriculum states, section 134 of the Doctrine and Covenants is not revelation: “It should be noted that in the minutes, and also in the introduction to this article on government, the brethren were careful to state that this declaration was accepted as the belief, or ‘opinion’ of the officers of the Church, and not as a revelation, and therefore does not hold the same place in the doctrines of the Church as do the revelations.”

As such, it might be easy to dismiss adherence to these provisions since they may lack the divine weight that some seek to impregnate into the pages from which we read them. But let’s accept, for conversation sake, the position that the average Mormon takes—that they are in fact binding upon church members.

How, then, are we bound?

The Twelfth Article of Faith reads as follows:

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

Most members of the Church focus only on the first part of this provision, asserting that we should subject ourselves to government, period, end of story. That position necessarily ignores the conjoining qualification wherein compliance is conditioned on the actions of those running the government. The correct reading of this Article stipulates that submission is predicated on these rulers obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. It therefore follows that when those in government are breaking the law, then our submission is not required. (Of course, this also requires understanding what law actually is, as it is not simply whatever mandates a group of government officials thinks up, however benevolent or barbaric.)

It becomes obvious, then, that pointing to this Article as the basis for unqualified allegiance to whatever government is in power is false. Exterminating Jews, for example, is not lawful, even if it is technically legal; God does not expect feckless submission to those who carry out such horrific acts.

But what of D&C 134, similarly referenced as a reason to play nice with those in power? The relevant passage of this “declaration of belief regarding governments and laws” reads:

We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.

As with the Twelfth Article of Faith, many Church members simply internalize only the first few words of this verse, leading them to incorrectly believe that God binds them to “sustain and uphold the [government] in which they reside,” period, end of story. But again, the qualifying conditions that follow make clear that such allegiance is predicated on lawful activity. Such support is required, we further read, while we are “protected in [our] inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments.” Sedition and rebellion “are unbecoming every citizen thus protected.”

A fair and plain reading of this scripture results in the same conclusion: a government that violates a person’s rights is not deserving of support—and at a minimum, there is no divine obligation to simply submit to the mandates of those in power.

Unfortunately, the incorrect interpretation of these passages is offered to readers of Moroni and the Swastika—an otherwise outstanding book I heartily recommend reading—whose author at the very introduction tells us that the Twelfth Article of Faith and D&C 134 together comprise an “important religious tenet” and constitute “a charge to cooperate with civil government however onerous it may be.”

Clearly, having the Church sanction rebellion against an oppressive military machine would be unwise; organizational opposition to a ruthless political regime would bring swift and fatal retaliation. However, while institutional defiance is strategically foolhardy, the question of individual resistance should be treated separately—and in that realm we must address whether God actually intends for each of his followers to follow orders from repressive regimes and respectable Republics alike.

Helmuth Hübener’s story provides a case study against which we can analyze this question. While the Church had been strenuously attempting to be considered friendly—or at least non-threatening—toward the Nazi regime, one of its members, a young teenage boy, was authoring scathing rebukes excoriating Adolf Hitler and his minions. These documents were disseminated furtively throughout Hübener’s town of Hamburg, and when caught, his friends were imprisoned for several years, while the 17-year-old ringleader—and faithful Mormon—was beheaded by guillotine. He was subsequently excommunicated by his rabidly pro-Nazi ecclesiastical leader, and his story was suppressed by BYU officials and Church leaders for years, citing sensitivities of upsetting communist leadership in East Germany with whom the Church was trying to build a relationship in order to facilitate church business and missionary work.

Few will dispute the wisdom of strategy, and the importance of picking one’s battles. It does little good to one’s self, family, congregation, or others to put up a quick fight and be executed. It is perhaps for this reason that—unlike the non-revelatory scriptures referenced earlier—God actually has stated, “this is wisdom, make unto yourselves friends with the mammon of unrighteousness, and they will not destroy you.” It follows the old adage of keeping your friends close and your enemies closer; there is logistical benefit in not incurring the wrath of a powerful foe.

But while strategy should be considered, that does not constitute a valid claim to argue that God absolutely forbids anything but servility to the state. To the extent that Helmuth’s story is known, he is praised as a freedom fighter—a brave and principled young man who stood up for his convictions, and who sought to popularize the truth. His excommunication—considered by many to never have been valid in the first place—was later rescinded. Books, plays, movies, and other media extol his heroism. It’s easy to recognize the virtue of his activism.
It’s also easy to cast aspersions on his contemporaries who courted favor with the very enemy Helmuth was fighting. How easy must it have been to follow the masses—to silently and idly accept the increasing levels of restrictions, first because they didn’t affect you, and later because circumstances were too severe to speak out?

The mind, in such circumstances, is desperate for self-soothing arguments that ameloriate one’s conscience. Thus did German Mormons embrace a number of myths regarding the Third Reich’s friendliness towards the faith: that Hitler had read the Book of Mormon; that he based his supposed health code on the Word of Wisdom; that his Winter Relief program—where Germans were told to eat a simple meal on the Second Sunday at donate saved funds to the war effort—was based on the church’s Fast Sunday program; that close parallels existed between the Nazi drive for racial purity and genealogical research, and the Church’s own quest for family history; and at worst, that Hitler himself was on a mission from God. Thus did Hübener’s pro-Nazi branch president tell his flock “about the importance of keeping the laws of the land and supporting and sustaining the Führer who was ordained of God.”

Sadly, sensitivities often trumped conscience, whether individually or institutionally. The Church’s effort to suppress Hübener’s story, detailed in length in this book, was spearheaded by Thomas S. Monson, who had been tasked with overseeing the Church’s efforts regarding East Germany. When approached by an Associated Press reporter inquiring as to why he had stopped BYU from continuing a very popular production of a play on Hübener’s life, and why research and publication of the story had been quashed, then-Elder Monson replied:
Who knows what was right or wrong then? I don’t know what we accomplish by dredging these things up and trying to sort them out.

It’s admittedly easy to play armchair quarterback and see the apparent misguidedness of censoring so important a story out of concerns that may have been unfounded. The motives of Elder Monson were, we must presume, sincere—he, like Church leaders for decades, had a fixed goal as the primary priority: keep missionary work going. These ends justified controversial means, whether ingratiating the Church with the Nazi regime from the highest levels, or controlling the flow of information in the decades that followed the war.

Helmuth’s story speaks to me. I believe he did what was right. And as the familiar primary tune counsels us, we are to “do what is right, let the consequence follow.” Put differently, ends don’t justify the means; does a crucial “end” such as perpetuating Church programs and allowing missionary work to continue allow us to support the problematic means listed above? It’s a pertinent question for the future, and one which deserves serious reflection—not to recommend institutional changes and counsel those in command of the Lord’s Church, but to ponder individual action and the degree to which one is willing or obligated to support an unsupportable government.

http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/mormon ... #more-3411

A good one...thank you for sharing!!

Perhaps some framework is needed? Role of the individual vs role of the organization in government dictates. Also the reality that individual choices (votes) can set the framework for organizational choices. And choices determine destiny.

Plenty has been said over time. I tried some time back to grab a few of the highlights - viewtopic.php?p=239554#p239554

And arm chair historians throw their opinions about long after the plays are made with presumption of correctness and judgment from the look back.

But luckily most today will have ample opportunity for choices that future generations can armchair quarterback long after it's over....

[Serragon]

Reality is it's easy to blame 15 individuals rather than acknowledging personal responsibility and accountability.

This makes no sense at all.

We are not to blame them for telling us to take the vaccine? For telling us that it was safe? For telling us that our govt leaders were being wise and thoughtful by taking away our rights and requiring useless poison be injected into our systems? For telling us that it was the ONLY way to stop COVID? And doing all of this by virtue of their authority as PSR's? Where they required it to be read over the pulpit by Bishops to give it the proper sense of urgency and authority? And with the final capper of telling us they issued this incorrect and harmful statement out of love and concern?

Their directives were wrong, and there is death and illness as a result. But people need to acknowledge their personal accountability? These men claim to be PSR's! They force everyone to acknowledge them as such if they wish to be fully active in the church. But we need to acknowledge our personal accountability?

Are our leaders responsible for nothing? I don't expect our leaders to rebel. But I do expect them to either be silent or be correct when using their authority to convince people into an action.

This appears to me to be an extremely bad take on this issue.

[Jason]

Reality is it's easy to blame 15 individuals rather than acknowledging personal responsibility and accountability.

This makes no sense at all.

We are not to blame them for telling us to take the vaccine? For telling us that it was safe? For telling us that our govt leaders were being wise and thoughtful by taking away our rights and requiring useless poison be injected into our systems? For telling us that it was the ONLY way to stop COVID? And doing all of this by virtue of their authority as PSR's? Where they required it to be read over the pulpit by Bishops to give it the proper sense of urgency and authority? And with the final capper of telling us they issued this incorrect and harmful statement out of love and concern?

Their directives were wrong, and there is death and illness as a result. But people need to acknowledge their personal accountability? These men claim to be PSR's! They force everyone to acknowledge them as such if they wish to be fully active in the church. But we need to acknowledge our personal accountability?

Are our leaders responsible for nothing? I don't expect our leaders to rebel. But I do expect them to either be silent or be correct when using their authority to convince people into an action.

This appears to me to be an extremely bad take on this issue.

Seems pretty good to me...and you certainly emphasized the point. Them, them, them....you are entitled to your own discernment are you not?

And while your point has some merit today...it lacks the historical background and numerous warnings provided but not heeded over time...for example -

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

Tribulation is pretty much here is it not? If not exactly now...not very distant in the future. How many heeded the counsel? Where are folks at today on it? Whose fault? Blame the current leaders for not reiterating it a 100 times in the last year? For saying something different today because they are here today in this time dealing with the destiny of the decisions made over the last 40 years or so?

Get pissed at 15 men for following some government dictates from a government crafted over many decades of millions of individual choices (votes)...really make much sense? Easy sure...but again throw their heads on the chopping block. Solve anything? Resolve anything? Change the course of anything?

The masses have spoken...and we each had our individual opportunities to make our voices heard. King Mosiah prophesied the outcome so long ago....

Our American republic will endure only as long as the ideas of the men who founded it continue dominant

James Russell Lowell

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government.

George Washington, Farewell Address, September 17, 1796; The Writings of George Washington, Ford Edition, 13:307–:8

Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites—in proportion as their love of justice is above their rapacity—in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption—in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon the will and appetite is placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.

Edmund Burke, Works, 4:51–52

Yes, we have a rich heritage, but may I remind you that nations ofttimes sow the seeds of their own destruction even while enjoying unprecedented prosperity, even before reaching the zenith or the peak of their power. I think history clearly indicates that this is often the case. When it appears that all is well, ofttimes the very seeds of destruction are sown, sometimes unwittingly. Most of the great civilizations of the world have not been conquered from without until they have destroyed themselves from within by sowing these seeds of destruction.

Ezra T Benson

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Reality is it's easy to blame 15 individuals rather than acknowledging personal responsibility and accountability.

This makes no sense at all.

We are not to blame them for telling us to take the vaccine? For telling us that it was safe? For telling us that our govt leaders were being wise and thoughtful by taking away our rights and requiring useless poison be injected into our systems? For telling us that it was the ONLY way to stop COVID? And doing all of this by virtue of their authority as PSR's? Where they required it to be read over the pulpit by Bishops to give it the proper sense of urgency and authority? And with the final capper of telling us they issued this incorrect and harmful statement out of love and concern?

Their directives were wrong, and there is death and illness as a result. But people need to acknowledge their personal accountability? These men claim to be PSR's! They force everyone to acknowledge them as such if they wish to be fully active in the church. But we need to acknowledge our personal accountability?

Are our leaders responsible for nothing? I don't expect our leaders to rebel. But I do expect them to either be silent or be correct when using their authority to convince people into an action.

This appears to me to be an extremely bad take on this issue.

Seems pretty good to me...and you certainly emphasized the point. Them, them, them....you are entitled to your own discernment are you not?

And while your point has some merit today...it lacks the historical background and numerous warnings provided but not heeded over time...for example -

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

Tribulation is pretty much here is it not? If not exactly now...not very distant in the future. How many heeded the counsel? Where are folks at today on it? Whose fault?

Get pissed at 15 men for following some government dictates from a government crafted over many decades of millions of individual choices (votes)...really make much sense? Easy sure...but again throw their heads on the chopping block. Solve anything? Resolve anything? Change the course of anything?

The masses have spoken...and we each had our individual opportunities to make our voices heard. King Mosiah prophesied the outcome so long ago....

Our American republic will endure only as long as the ideas of the men who founded it continue dominant

James Russell Lowell

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government.

George Washington, Farewell Address, September 17, 1796; The Writings of George Washington, Ford Edition, 13:307–:8

Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites—in proportion as their love of justice is above their rapacity—in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption—in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon the will and appetite is placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.

Edmund Burke, Works, 4:51–52

Yes, we have a rich heritage, but may I remind you that nations ofttimes sow the seeds of their own destruction even while enjoying unprecedented prosperity, even before reaching the zenith or the peak of their power. I think history clearly indicates that this is often the case. When it appears that all is well, ofttimes the very seeds of destruction are sown, sometimes unwittingly. Most of the great civilizations of the world have not been conquered from without until they have destroyed themselves from within by sowing these seeds of destruction.

Ezra T Benson

If the covid vaxx is causing immune suppression, myocarditis, turbo cancers, infertility, blood clots, micro brain blood clots, neurologic dysfunction and a host of other conditions while also causing millions of deaths, then anyone in a position of authority who categorically encouraged their followers or subordinates to take the vaccine and called it a "godsend" and "safe and effective" bears a huge responsibility.

The value proposition for taking the advice of a doctor is that a medical professional has deep understanding of both the body's physiology and also the effects of any vaccine. Doctors failed miserably to deliver on that value proposition. They weren't worth paying for the advice.

The value proposition of a prophet (or 15 prophets) is that they stand as a watchman on the tower. They can see around corners. They have advance notice to warn you about evil and its potential harm. Those who perpetrated this vaccine mess were pure evil. They knew what they were doing. They knew that their actions would harm billions of people and kill millions. They corrupted the media of multiple nations to not only hide their actions, but to promote their genocide. There is no other description that fits better than to call the entire scam evil. The fifteen prophets failed miserably to deliver on their value proposition. They weren't worth paying for the advice.

[Jason]

This makes no sense at all.

We are not to blame them for telling us to take the vaccine? For telling us that it was safe? For telling us that our govt leaders were being wise and thoughtful by taking away our rights and requiring useless poison be injected into our systems? For telling us that it was the ONLY way to stop COVID? And doing all of this by virtue of their authority as PSR's? Where they required it to be read over the pulpit by Bishops to give it the proper sense of urgency and authority? And with the final capper of telling us they issued this incorrect and harmful statement out of love and concern?

Their directives were wrong, and there is death and illness as a result. But people need to acknowledge their personal accountability? These men claim to be PSR's! They force everyone to acknowledge them as such if they wish to be fully active in the church. But we need to acknowledge our personal accountability?

Are our leaders responsible for nothing? I don't expect our leaders to rebel. But I do expect them to either be silent or be correct when using their authority to convince people into an action.

This appears to me to be an extremely bad take on this issue.

Seems pretty good to me...and you certainly emphasized the point. Them, them, them....you are entitled to your own discernment are you not?

And while your point has some merit today...it lacks the historical background and numerous warnings provided but not heeded over time...for example -

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

Tribulation is pretty much here is it not? If not exactly now...not very distant in the future. How many heeded the counsel? Where are folks at today on it? Whose fault?

Get pissed at 15 men for following some government dictates from a government crafted over many decades of millions of individual choices (votes)...really make much sense? Easy sure...but again throw their heads on the chopping block. Solve anything? Resolve anything? Change the course of anything?

The masses have spoken...and we each had our individual opportunities to make our voices heard. King Mosiah prophesied the outcome so long ago....

Our American republic will endure only as long as the ideas of the men who founded it continue dominant

James Russell Lowell

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government.

George Washington, Farewell Address, September 17, 1796; The Writings of George Washington, Ford Edition, 13:307–:8

Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites—in proportion as their love of justice is above their rapacity—in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption—in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon the will and appetite is placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.

Edmund Burke, Works, 4:51–52

Yes, we have a rich heritage, but may I remind you that nations ofttimes sow the seeds of their own destruction even while enjoying unprecedented prosperity, even before reaching the zenith or the peak of their power. I think history clearly indicates that this is often the case. When it appears that all is well, ofttimes the very seeds of destruction are sown, sometimes unwittingly. Most of the great civilizations of the world have not been conquered from without until they have destroyed themselves from within by sowing these seeds of destruction.

Ezra T Benson

If the covid vaxx is causing immune suppression, myocarditis, turbo cancers, infertility, blood clots, micro brain blood clots, neurologic dysfunction and a host of other conditions while also causing millions of deaths, then anyone in a position of authority who categorically encouraged their followers or subordinates to take the vaccine and called it a "godsend" and "safe and effective" bears a huge responsibility.

The value proposition for taking the advice of a doctor is that a medical professional has deep understanding of both the body's physiology and also the effects of any vaccine. Doctors failed miserably to deliver on that value proposition. They weren't worth paying for the advice.

The value proposition of a prophet (or 15 prophets) is that they stand as a watchman on the tower. They can see around corners. They have advance notice to warn you about evil and its potential harm. Those who perpetrated this vaccine mess were pure evil. They knew what they were doing. They knew that their actions would harm billions of people and kill millions. They corrupted the media of multiple nations to not only hide their actions, but to promote their genocide. There is no other description that fits better than to call the entire scam evil. The fifteen prophets failed miserably to deliver on their value proposition. They weren't worth paying for the advice.

No doubt...but at the same time that's the view from the armchair looking back knowing what we know today and overlooking the circumstances of that moment with what was known at that time (not much) in the midst of tremendous hype and both public & government pressure.

Well doctors as a whole were paid off. We know this now.

Well the chief watchman on the tower told everyone to get their own revelation prior to things kicking off. Bit judgemental on what they knew and didn't know at that time. Who knows what government mandates were given, what evidence was presented to them, what consequences or threats were presented to them, etc etc etc. All "we" do know (unless you were a private party to what was presented) is that the Rockefeller Foundation and the John Hopkins Institute specifically called out in their literature...in May of 2020 with only the Moderna candidate and no safety/efficacy studies initiated yet...is that the government needed to target trusted community leaders and specifically faith-based leaders with their marketing efforts in order to overcome the vaccine hesitancy in the general population. But you can certainly judge away as you see fit...just remember you'll be held to your own standard.

[Lizzy60]

Seems pretty good to me...and you certainly emphasized the point. Them, them, them....you are entitled to your own discernment are you not?

And while your point has some merit today...it lacks the historical background and numerous warnings provided but not heeded over time...for example -

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

Tribulation is pretty much here is it not? If not exactly now...not very distant in the future. How many heeded the counsel? Where are folks at today on it? Whose fault?

Get pissed at 15 men for following some government dictates from a government crafted over many decades of millions of individual choices (votes)...really make much sense? Easy sure...but again throw their heads on the chopping block. Solve anything? Resolve anything? Change the course of anything?

The masses have spoken...and we each had our individual opportunities to make our voices heard. King Mosiah prophesied the outcome so long ago....


James Russell Lowell


George Washington, Farewell Address, September 17, 1796; The Writings of George Washington, Ford Edition, 13:307–:8


Edmund Burke, Works, 4:51–52


Ezra T Benson

If the covid vaxx is causing immune suppression, myocarditis, turbo cancers, infertility, blood clots, micro brain blood clots, neurologic dysfunction and a host of other conditions while also causing millions of deaths, then anyone in a position of authority who categorically encouraged their followers or subordinates to take the vaccine and called it a "godsend" and "safe and effective" bears a huge responsibility.

The value proposition for taking the advice of a doctor is that a medical professional has deep understanding of both the body's physiology and also the effects of any vaccine. Doctors failed miserably to deliver on that value proposition. They weren't worth paying for the advice.

The value proposition of a prophet (or 15 prophets) is that they stand as a watchman on the tower. They can see around corners. They have advance notice to warn you about evil and its potential harm. Those who perpetrated this vaccine mess were pure evil. They knew what they were doing. They knew that their actions would harm billions of people and kill millions. They corrupted the media of multiple nations to not only hide their actions, but to promote their genocide. There is no other description that fits better than to call the entire scam evil. The fifteen prophets failed miserably to deliver on their value proposition. They weren't worth paying for the advice.

No doubt...but at the same time that's the view from the armchair looking back knowing what we know today and overlooking the circumstances of that moment with what was known at that time (not much) in the midst of tremendous hype and both public & government pressure.

Well doctors as a whole were paid off. We know this now.

Well the chief watchman on the tower told everyone to get their own revelation prior to things kicking off. Bit judgemental on what they knew and didn't know at that time. Who knows what government mandates were given, what evidence was presented to them, what consequences or threats were presented to them, etc etc etc. All "we" do know (unless you were a private party to what was presented) is that the Rockefeller Foundation and the John Hopkins Institute specifically called out in their literature...in May of 2020 with only the Moderna candidate and no safety/efficacy studies initiated yet...is that the government needed to target trusted community leaders and specifically faith-based leaders with their marketing efforts in order to overcome the vaccine hesitancy in the general population. But you can certainly judge away as you see fit...just remember you'll be held to your own standard.

Jason, six months before the vaccine rollout I experienced a direct, undeniable message from God that this particular vaccine was dangerous and to absolutely not get it. There are others on this forum who had that same experience. Early on, even before it was released, there were testimonies given by many Christians that God revealed to them with certainty that this vaccine was dangerous. Many of them lost their jobs. Many of them faced ridicule. They never doubted that God had spoken to them. I do not have a single shred of doubt that God spoke to me about this vaccine.

We have 15 men who have told us to trust them completely, and they got their information about the vaccine from “trusted” government and Big Pharma sources.

Their claim to be prophets, their claim to see around corners, their claim that we can trust them......is worth nothing.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Seems pretty good to me...and you certainly emphasized the point. Them, them, them....you are entitled to your own discernment are you not?

And while your point has some merit today...it lacks the historical background and numerous warnings provided but not heeded over time...for example -

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

Tribulation is pretty much here is it not? If not exactly now...not very distant in the future. How many heeded the counsel? Where are folks at today on it? Whose fault?

Get pissed at 15 men for following some government dictates from a government crafted over many decades of millions of individual choices (votes)...really make much sense? Easy sure...but again throw their heads on the chopping block. Solve anything? Resolve anything? Change the course of anything?

The masses have spoken...and we each had our individual opportunities to make our voices heard. King Mosiah prophesied the outcome so long ago....


James Russell Lowell


George Washington, Farewell Address, September 17, 1796; The Writings of George Washington, Ford Edition, 13:307–:8


Edmund Burke, Works, 4:51–52


Ezra T Benson

If the covid vaxx is causing immune suppression, myocarditis, turbo cancers, infertility, blood clots, micro brain blood clots, neurologic dysfunction and a host of other conditions while also causing millions of deaths, then anyone in a position of authority who categorically encouraged their followers or subordinates to take the vaccine and called it a "godsend" and "safe and effective" bears a huge responsibility.

The value proposition for taking the advice of a doctor is that a medical professional has deep understanding of both the body's physiology and also the effects of any vaccine. Doctors failed miserably to deliver on that value proposition. They weren't worth paying for the advice.

The value proposition of a prophet (or 15 prophets) is that they stand as a watchman on the tower. They can see around corners. They have advance notice to warn you about evil and its potential harm. Those who perpetrated this vaccine mess were pure evil. They knew what they were doing. They knew that their actions would harm billions of people and kill millions. They corrupted the media of multiple nations to not only hide their actions, but to promote their genocide. There is no other description that fits better than to call the entire scam evil. The fifteen prophets failed miserably to deliver on their value proposition. They weren't worth paying for the advice.

No doubt...but at the same time that's the view from the armchair looking back knowing what we know today and overlooking the circumstances of that moment with what was known at that time (not much) in the midst of tremendous hype and both public & government pressure.

Well doctors as a whole were paid off. We know this now.

Well the chief watchman on the tower told everyone to get their own revelation prior to things kicking off. Bit judgemental on what they knew and didn't know at that time. Who knows what government mandates were given, what evidence was presented to them, what consequences or threats were presented to them, etc etc etc. All "we" do know (unless you were a private party to what was presented) is that the Rockefeller Foundation and the John Hopkins Institute specifically called out in their literature...in May of 2020 with only the Moderna candidate and no safety/efficacy studies initiated yet...is that the government needed to target trusted community leaders and specifically faith-based leaders with their marketing efforts in order to overcome the vaccine hesitancy in the general population. But you can certainly judge away as you see fit...just remember you'll be held to your own standard.

President Eyring told me personally that they received no revelation regarding Covid.

[Jason]

If the covid vaxx is causing immune suppression, myocarditis, turbo cancers, infertility, blood clots, micro brain blood clots, neurologic dysfunction and a host of other conditions while also causing millions of deaths, then anyone in a position of authority who categorically encouraged their followers or subordinates to take the vaccine and called it a "godsend" and "safe and effective" bears a huge responsibility.

The value proposition for taking the advice of a doctor is that a medical professional has deep understanding of both the body's physiology and also the effects of any vaccine. Doctors failed miserably to deliver on that value proposition. They weren't worth paying for the advice.

The value proposition of a prophet (or 15 prophets) is that they stand as a watchman on the tower. They can see around corners. They have advance notice to warn you about evil and its potential harm. Those who perpetrated this vaccine mess were pure evil. They knew what they were doing. They knew that their actions would harm billions of people and kill millions. They corrupted the media of multiple nations to not only hide their actions, but to promote their genocide. There is no other description that fits better than to call the entire scam evil. The fifteen prophets failed miserably to deliver on their value proposition. They weren't worth paying for the advice.

No doubt...but at the same time that's the view from the armchair looking back knowing what we know today and overlooking the circumstances of that moment with what was known at that time (not much) in the midst of tremendous hype and both public & government pressure.

Well doctors as a whole were paid off. We know this now.

Well the chief watchman on the tower told everyone to get their own revelation prior to things kicking off. Bit judgemental on what they knew and didn't know at that time. Who knows what government mandates were given, what evidence was presented to them, what consequences or threats were presented to them, etc etc etc. All "we" do know (unless you were a private party to what was presented) is that the Rockefeller Foundation and the John Hopkins Institute specifically called out in their literature...in May of 2020 with only the Moderna candidate and no safety/efficacy studies initiated yet...is that the government needed to target trusted community leaders and specifically faith-based leaders with their marketing efforts in order to overcome the vaccine hesitancy in the general population. But you can certainly judge away as you see fit...just remember you'll be held to your own standard.

Jason, six months before the vaccine rollout I experienced a direct, undeniable message from God that this particular vaccine was dangerous and to absolutely not get it. There are others on this forum who had that same experience. Early on, even before it was released, there were testimonies given by many Christians that God revealed to them with certainty that this vaccine was dangerous. Many of them lost their jobs. Many of them faced ridicule. They never doubted that God had spoken to them. I do not have a single shred of doubt that God spoke to me about this vaccine.

We have 15 men who have told us to trust them completely, and they got their information about the vaccine from “trusted” government and Big Pharma sources.

Their claim to be prophets, their claim to see around corners, their claim that we can trust them......is worth nothing.

I got the same inspiration in response to personal prayer and avoided the clot shot. Also my family.

Can't agree with the rest...

The Prophet Joseph Smith set a pattern for us to follow in resolving our questions. Drawn to the promise of James that if we lack wisdom we may ask of God, the boy Joseph took his question directly to Heavenly Father. He sought personal revelation, and his seeking opened this last dispensation.

In like manner, what will your seeking open for you? What wisdom do you lack? What do you feel an urgent need to know or understand? Follow the example of the Prophet Joseph. Find a quiet place where you can regularly go. Humble yourself before God. Pour out your heart to your Heavenly Father. Turn to Him for answers and for comfort.

Pray in the name of Jesus Christ about your concerns, your fears, your weaknesses—yes, the very longings of your heart. And then listen! Write the thoughts that come to your mind. Record your feelings and follow through with actions that you are prompted to take. As you repeat this process day after day, month after month, year after year, you will “grow into the principle of revelation.”

Does God really want to speak to you? Yes! “As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course … as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.”

I urge you to stretch beyond your current spiritual ability to receive personal revelation, for the Lord has promised that “if thou shalt [seek], thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things—that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.”

Oh, there is so much more that your Father in Heaven wants you to know. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell taught, “To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, it is clear that the Father and the Son are giving away the secrets of the universe!”

Nothing opens the heavens quite like the combination of increased purity, exact obedience, earnest seeking, daily feasting on the words of Christ in the Book of Mormon, and regular time committed to temple and family history work.

To be sure, there may be times when you feel as though the heavens are closed. But I promise that as you continue to be obedient, expressing gratitude for every blessing the Lord gives you, and as you patiently honor the Lord’s timetable, you will be given the knowledge and understanding you seek. Every blessing the Lord has for you—even miracles—will follow. That is what personal revelation will do for you.

If we are to have any hope of sifting through the myriad of voices and the philosophies of men that attack truth, we must learn to receive revelation.

Our Savior and Redeemer, Jesus Christ, will perform some of His mightiest works between now and when He comes again. We will see miraculous indications that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, preside over this Church in majesty and glory. But in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

My beloved brothers and sisters, I plead with you to increase your spiritual capacity to receive revelation.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

[Lizzy60]

No doubt...but at the same time that's the view from the armchair looking back knowing what we know today and overlooking the circumstances of that moment with what was known at that time (not much) in the midst of tremendous hype and both public & government pressure.

Well doctors as a whole were paid off. We know this now.

Well the chief watchman on the tower told everyone to get their own revelation prior to things kicking off. Bit judgemental on what they knew and didn't know at that time. Who knows what government mandates were given, what evidence was presented to them, what consequences or threats were presented to them, etc etc etc. All "we" do know (unless you were a private party to what was presented) is that the Rockefeller Foundation and the John Hopkins Institute specifically called out in their literature...in May of 2020 with only the Moderna candidate and no safety/efficacy studies initiated yet...is that the government needed to target trusted community leaders and specifically faith-based leaders with their marketing efforts in order to overcome the vaccine hesitancy in the general population. But you can certainly judge away as you see fit...just remember you'll be held to your own standard.

Jason, six months before the vaccine rollout I experienced a direct, undeniable message from God that this particular vaccine was dangerous and to absolutely not get it. There are others on this forum who had that same experience. Early on, even before it was released, there were testimonies given by many Christians that God revealed to them with certainty that this vaccine was dangerous. Many of them lost their jobs. Many of them faced ridicule. They never doubted that God had spoken to them. I do not have a single shred of doubt that God spoke to me about this vaccine.

We have 15 men who have told us to trust them completely, and they got their information about the vaccine from “trusted” government and Big Pharma sources.

Their claim to be prophets, their claim to see around corners, their claim that we can trust them......is worth nothing.

I got the same inspiration in response to personal prayer and avoided the clot shot. Also my family.

Can't agree with the rest...

The Prophet Joseph Smith set a pattern for us to follow in resolving our questions. Drawn to the promise of James that if we lack wisdom we may ask of God, the boy Joseph took his question directly to Heavenly Father. He sought personal revelation, and his seeking opened this last dispensation.

In like manner, what will your seeking open for you? What wisdom do you lack? What do you feel an urgent need to know or understand? Follow the example of the Prophet Joseph. Find a quiet place where you can regularly go. Humble yourself before God. Pour out your heart to your Heavenly Father. Turn to Him for answers and for comfort.

Pray in the name of Jesus Christ about your concerns, your fears, your weaknesses—yes, the very longings of your heart. And then listen! Write the thoughts that come to your mind. Record your feelings and follow through with actions that you are prompted to take. As you repeat this process day after day, month after month, year after year, you will “grow into the principle of revelation.”

Does God really want to speak to you? Yes! “As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course … as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.”

I urge you to stretch beyond your current spiritual ability to receive personal revelation, for the Lord has promised that “if thou shalt [seek], thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things—that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.”

Oh, there is so much more that your Father in Heaven wants you to know. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell taught, “To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, it is clear that the Father and the Son are giving away the secrets of the universe!”

Nothing opens the heavens quite like the combination of increased purity, exact obedience, earnest seeking, daily feasting on the words of Christ in the Book of Mormon, and regular time committed to temple and family history work.

To be sure, there may be times when you feel as though the heavens are closed. But I promise that as you continue to be obedient, expressing gratitude for every blessing the Lord gives you, and as you patiently honor the Lord’s timetable, you will be given the knowledge and understanding you seek. Every blessing the Lord has for you—even miracles—will follow. That is what personal revelation will do for you.

If we are to have any hope of sifting through the myriad of voices and the philosophies of men that attack truth, we must learn to receive revelation.

Our Savior and Redeemer, Jesus Christ, will perform some of His mightiest works between now and when He comes again. We will see miraculous indications that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, preside over this Church in majesty and glory. But in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

My beloved brothers and sisters, I plead with you to increase your spiritual capacity to receive revelation.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

I believe most of the faithful members of the church will tell you that the letter the First Presidency sent out was a result of revelation. Renlund said as much later when he claimed that in a meeting of all 15 of them, they reviewed the letter and they all felt the approval of the Holy Ghost in sending it to the entire church membership. If that’s not a claim of revelation (the Holy Ghost revealing something to prophets) I don’t know what would qualify.

Family members of mine have told me I am NOT allowed to tell their children (my adult and teenage grandchildren, nieces, nephews) that I don’t believe they received revelation on this because I will harm their testimonies.

[Jason]

If the covid vaxx is causing immune suppression, myocarditis, turbo cancers, infertility, blood clots, micro brain blood clots, neurologic dysfunction and a host of other conditions while also causing millions of deaths, then anyone in a position of authority who categorically encouraged their followers or subordinates to take the vaccine and called it a "godsend" and "safe and effective" bears a huge responsibility.

The value proposition for taking the advice of a doctor is that a medical professional has deep understanding of both the body's physiology and also the effects of any vaccine. Doctors failed miserably to deliver on that value proposition. They weren't worth paying for the advice.

The value proposition of a prophet (or 15 prophets) is that they stand as a watchman on the tower. They can see around corners. They have advance notice to warn you about evil and its potential harm. Those who perpetrated this vaccine mess were pure evil. They knew what they were doing. They knew that their actions would harm billions of people and kill millions. They corrupted the media of multiple nations to not only hide their actions, but to promote their genocide. There is no other description that fits better than to call the entire scam evil. The fifteen prophets failed miserably to deliver on their value proposition. They weren't worth paying for the advice.

No doubt...but at the same time that's the view from the armchair looking back knowing what we know today and overlooking the circumstances of that moment with what was known at that time (not much) in the midst of tremendous hype and both public & government pressure.

Well doctors as a whole were paid off. We know this now.

Well the chief watchman on the tower told everyone to get their own revelation prior to things kicking off. Bit judgemental on what they knew and didn't know at that time. Who knows what government mandates were given, what evidence was presented to them, what consequences or threats were presented to them, etc etc etc. All "we" do know (unless you were a private party to what was presented) is that the Rockefeller Foundation and the John Hopkins Institute specifically called out in their literature...in May of 2020 with only the Moderna candidate and no safety/efficacy studies initiated yet...is that the government needed to target trusted community leaders and specifically faith-based leaders with their marketing efforts in order to overcome the vaccine hesitancy in the general population. But you can certainly judge away as you see fit...just remember you'll be held to your own standard.

President Eyring told me personally that they received no revelation regarding Covid.

Which only confirms what I have previously said and begs question your judgement of the matter...

If you truly expected them to take on the US Government and the entire shadow complex behind it...making the organization of the church a target in the process disrupting all the precious work....I can only ask if you have attempted the same??? Or is it truly armchair quarterbacking and judgment from one who's never personally sacrificed and played the take on the government game with all of it's alphabet black deeds soup???

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

No doubt...but at the same time that's the view from the armchair looking back knowing what we know today and overlooking the circumstances of that moment with what was known at that time (not much) in the midst of tremendous hype and both public & government pressure.

Well doctors as a whole were paid off. We know this now.

Well the chief watchman on the tower told everyone to get their own revelation prior to things kicking off. Bit judgemental on what they knew and didn't know at that time. Who knows what government mandates were given, what evidence was presented to them, what consequences or threats were presented to them, etc etc etc. All "we" do know (unless you were a private party to what was presented) is that the Rockefeller Foundation and the John Hopkins Institute specifically called out in their literature...in May of 2020 with only the Moderna candidate and no safety/efficacy studies initiated yet...is that the government needed to target trusted community leaders and specifically faith-based leaders with their marketing efforts in order to overcome the vaccine hesitancy in the general population. But you can certainly judge away as you see fit...just remember you'll be held to your own standard.

President Eyring told me personally that they received no revelation regarding Covid.

Which only confirms what I have previously said and begs question your judgement of the matter...

If you truly expected them to take on the US Government and the entire shadow complex behind it...making the organization of the church a target in the process disrupting all the precious work....I can only ask if you have attempted the same??? Or is it truly armchair quarterbacking and judgment from one who's never personally sacrificed and played the take on the government game with all of it's alphabet black deeds soup???

They could have remained silent. Instead they were constantly pro active. They instigated their own mandates. They were all in, all the time. Until the push back it was no shot? No BYU Provo. BYU Hawaii was all shot all the time or no school---remember the girl who had serious chronic immunosuppression and BYU Hawaii insisted she get the shot or no school? Then it was no shot no mission, which got changed to no shot no overseas mission. It was all shot promotion from day one. That's not how a bribed, hijacked organization functions against its will. It does the very least, not the very most. We were all shot from day one. All mandates. All the time.

Remember this:

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/7/10 ... -this-fall

Or how about this:

https://www.thecollegefix.com/byu-hawai ... alyze-her/

And then there was the "we will fire you bishops" if you give out religious exemptions for the vaccine:

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/09 ... wont-help/

[Jason]

Jason, six months before the vaccine rollout I experienced a direct, undeniable message from God that this particular vaccine was dangerous and to absolutely not get it. There are others on this forum who had that same experience. Early on, even before it was released, there were testimonies given by many Christians that God revealed to them with certainty that this vaccine was dangerous. Many of them lost their jobs. Many of them faced ridicule. They never doubted that God had spoken to them. I do not have a single shred of doubt that God spoke to me about this vaccine.

We have 15 men who have told us to trust them completely, and they got their information about the vaccine from “trusted” government and Big Pharma sources.

Their claim to be prophets, their claim to see around corners, their claim that we can trust them......is worth nothing.

I got the same inspiration in response to personal prayer and avoided the clot shot. Also my family.

Can't agree with the rest...

The Prophet Joseph Smith set a pattern for us to follow in resolving our questions. Drawn to the promise of James that if we lack wisdom we may ask of God, the boy Joseph took his question directly to Heavenly Father. He sought personal revelation, and his seeking opened this last dispensation.

In like manner, what will your seeking open for you? What wisdom do you lack? What do you feel an urgent need to know or understand? Follow the example of the Prophet Joseph. Find a quiet place where you can regularly go. Humble yourself before God. Pour out your heart to your Heavenly Father. Turn to Him for answers and for comfort.

Pray in the name of Jesus Christ about your concerns, your fears, your weaknesses—yes, the very longings of your heart. And then listen! Write the thoughts that come to your mind. Record your feelings and follow through with actions that you are prompted to take. As you repeat this process day after day, month after month, year after year, you will “grow into the principle of revelation.”

Does God really want to speak to you? Yes! “As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course … as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.”

I urge you to stretch beyond your current spiritual ability to receive personal revelation, for the Lord has promised that “if thou shalt [seek], thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things—that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal.”

Oh, there is so much more that your Father in Heaven wants you to know. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell taught, “To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, it is clear that the Father and the Son are giving away the secrets of the universe!”

Nothing opens the heavens quite like the combination of increased purity, exact obedience, earnest seeking, daily feasting on the words of Christ in the Book of Mormon, and regular time committed to temple and family history work.

To be sure, there may be times when you feel as though the heavens are closed. But I promise that as you continue to be obedient, expressing gratitude for every blessing the Lord gives you, and as you patiently honor the Lord’s timetable, you will be given the knowledge and understanding you seek. Every blessing the Lord has for you—even miracles—will follow. That is what personal revelation will do for you.

If we are to have any hope of sifting through the myriad of voices and the philosophies of men that attack truth, we must learn to receive revelation.

Our Savior and Redeemer, Jesus Christ, will perform some of His mightiest works between now and when He comes again. We will see miraculous indications that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, preside over this Church in majesty and glory. But in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

My beloved brothers and sisters, I plead with you to increase your spiritual capacity to receive revelation.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

I believe most of the faithful members of the church will tell you that the letter the First Presidency sent out was a result of revelation. Renlund said as much later when he claimed that in a meeting of all 15 of them, they reviewed the letter and they all felt the approval of the Holy Ghost in sending it to the entire church membership. If that’s not a claim of revelation (the Holy Ghost revealing something to prophets) I don’t know what would qualify.

Family members of mine have told me I am NOT allowed to tell their children (my adult and teenage grandchildren, nieces, nephews) that I don’t believe they received revelation on this because I will harm their testimonies.

I wholeheartedly agree that the situation is awful...as we were warned it would be when the secret combinations got above us.

On top of that a wonderfully wide spectrum of knowledge, beliefs, attitudes, etc etc etc on the world, it's affairs, who's pulling the strings, and so forth. Blackrock and Council for Inclusive Capital control over $20 trillion in assets across the globe. Not to mention powerful individuals like Bill Gates, George Soros, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and so on who fund and support the missions of Lucis Trust, WEF, United Nations, etc etc etc...

In the midst of all that the challenge of navigating that mix with a global organization that is an arch enemy under the surface. If you were tossed completely into enemy territory surrounded by foes that would love nothing more than to extinguish your life...would you draw attention to yourself??? Or would you agree with your adversary quickly and keep your head down while trying to accomplish your mission???

[Jason]

President Eyring told me personally that they received no revelation regarding Covid.

Which only confirms what I have previously said and begs question your judgement of the matter...

If you truly expected them to take on the US Government and the entire shadow complex behind it...making the organization of the church a target in the process disrupting all the precious work....I can only ask if you have attempted the same??? Or is it truly armchair quarterbacking and judgment from one who's never personally sacrificed and played the take on the government game with all of it's alphabet black deeds soup???

They could have remained silent. Instead they were constantly pro active. They instigated their own mandates. They were all in, all the time. Until the push back it was no shot? No BYU Provo. BYU Hawaii was all shot all the time or no school---remember the girl who had serious chronic immunosuppression and BYU Hawaii insisted she get the shot or no school? Then it was no shot no mission, which got changed to no shot no overseas mission. It was all shot promotion from day one. That's not how a bribed, hijacked organization functions against its will. It does the very least, not the very most. We were all shot from day one. All mandates. All the time.

Remember this:

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/7/10 ... -this-fall

Hawaii went nuts...and BYU Hawaii was completely different from BYU Idaho as Idaho took a much more relaxed stance on Covid. My niece went to Hawaii on her mission in the midst of all that. You couldn't fly in without getting the shot.

They typically went along with the local governments. Some individual leaders more and others less depending on their individual leanings. I know of extremes within just a 50 mile stretch of eastern Idaho where stake presidents were trying to excommunicate for not coming to church with a mask to the other where they didn't push it much. In all accounts I'm aware of there was a general vacuum from upper leadership and a general directive to go with the local politics. Quite wise in hindsight I think...

And you'll notice...or perhaps not...that as the political environment has changed...so have the policies.

You have avoided all my questions...no matter. Proof is in the pudding.

As large groups of people decide to go this way or that way...individuals get swept along. History is abundant with examples - both secular and religious.

[Lizzy60]

I got the same inspiration in response to personal prayer and avoided the clot shot. Also my family.

Can't agree with the rest...


https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

I believe most of the faithful members of the church will tell you that the letter the First Presidency sent out was a result of revelation. Renlund said as much later when he claimed that in a meeting of all 15 of them, they reviewed the letter and they all felt the approval of the Holy Ghost in sending it to the entire church membership. If that’s not a claim of revelation (the Holy Ghost revealing something to prophets) I don’t know what would qualify.

Family members of mine have told me I am NOT allowed to tell their children (my adult and teenage grandchildren, nieces, nephews) that I don’t believe they received revelation on this because I will harm their testimonies.

I wholeheartedly agree that the situation is awful...as we were warned it would be when the secret combinations got above us.

On top of that a wonderfully wide spectrum of knowledge, beliefs, attitudes, etc etc etc on the world, it's affairs, who's pulling the strings, and so forth. Blackrock and Council for Inclusive Capital control over $20 trillion in assets across the globe. Not to mention powerful individuals like Bill Gates, George Soros, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and so on who fund and support the missions of Lucis Trust, WEF, United Nations, etc etc etc...

In the midst of all that the challenge of navigating that mix with a global organization that is an arch enemy under the surface. If you were tossed completely into enemy territory surrounded by foes that would love nothing more than to extinguish your life...would you draw attention to yourself??? Or would you agree with your adversary quickly and keep your head down while trying to accomplish your mission???

They could have advised us to follow local laws and mandates, then shut their mouths. I’m in Texas and the LDS Church here had stricter rules and mandates than the State. The state did not close churches. LDS did. We had to wear masks to church, but those were not mandated by the state government. It was left up to individual stores and churches, etc.

Why do we even claim to have prophets seers and revelators if they are so willing to throw us all under the rule of the UN WEF WHO and the evil men who would just as soon exterminate us? They support the most anti-Christ organizations and men on the planet. They OPENLY support them, with praise and donations.

[Jason]

I believe most of the faithful members of the church will tell you that the letter the First Presidency sent out was a result of revelation. Renlund said as much later when he claimed that in a meeting of all 15 of them, they reviewed the letter and they all felt the approval of the Holy Ghost in sending it to the entire church membership. If that’s not a claim of revelation (the Holy Ghost revealing something to prophets) I don’t know what would qualify.

Family members of mine have told me I am NOT allowed to tell their children (my adult and teenage grandchildren, nieces, nephews) that I don’t believe they received revelation on this because I will harm their testimonies.

I wholeheartedly agree that the situation is awful...as we were warned it would be when the secret combinations got above us.

On top of that a wonderfully wide spectrum of knowledge, beliefs, attitudes, etc etc etc on the world, it's affairs, who's pulling the strings, and so forth. Blackrock and Council for Inclusive Capital control over $20 trillion in assets across the globe. Not to mention powerful individuals like Bill Gates, George Soros, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and so on who fund and support the missions of Lucis Trust, WEF, United Nations, etc etc etc...

In the midst of all that the challenge of navigating that mix with a global organization that is an arch enemy under the surface. If you were tossed completely into enemy territory surrounded by foes that would love nothing more than to extinguish your life...would you draw attention to yourself??? Or would you agree with your adversary quickly and keep your head down while trying to accomplish your mission???

They could have advised us to follow local laws and mandates, then shut their mouths. I’m in Texas and the LDS Church here had stricter rules and mandates than the State. The state did not close churches. LDS did. We had to wear masks to church, but those were not mandated by the state government. It was left up to individual stores and churches, etc.

Why do we even claim to have prophets seers and revelators if they are so willing to throw us all under the rule of the UN WEF WHO and the evil men who would just as soon exterminate us? They support the most anti-Christ organizations and men on the planet. They OPENLY support them, with praise and donations.

Everyone has an opinion....they should do this, they should do that, etc etc etc.

Again you blame them for throwing everyone under the rule of the UN, WEF, etc. Who's to blame? 15 men??? really??? They personally through you under the gadianton rule??? Rule that took over a hundred years to achieve their current level of control...and don't the billions allow it? What have you done to stop it?

If you were in life threatening enemy territory wouldn't you heap praise and donations to preserve yourself???

Isn't judging them for something you don't tackle yourself quite chickenshite in approach? Rather than owning up to the fact that you are entitled to your own revelation and are quite capable of making your own stand on it...regardless of what the masses decide to do? No matter which cliff they decide to jump off of?

Are you going to be judged for how you ran the church? Or what you did with the personal revelation that you received?

Focus on the symptoms and those caught up in it?? ...or on root causes and solutions?

Spend endless hours and energy kicking at the bricks of the church? Or move on with life and accept that the situation sucked...we are under oppressive secret combinations at all levels...and seek your own personal inspiration in navigating the storm (as highly recommended as a survival tactic for times shortly to come)?

Just saying because we are on the brink of some much more serious life impacting shiznit hitting the fan...

But hey hey...if you are going to do that...may as well start blaming them for the economic malaise as well...despite 100+ years of preaching about staying out of debt, food storage, save for a rainy day, live within your means, and so forth...I mean they haven't really pounded that on the pulpit here lately so the latest group of 15 must be responsible for throwing everyone under the gadianton economic bus...right??? No way the people did it to themselves....then b&m...and blame game whoever they choose to focus on....

[JuneBug12000]

It's worse than that Reluctant; the church isn't following the law - our gov, and the "powers that be", which I believe is synonymous with the cabal/globalist/satan-worshipping, elite wealthy and descendants of the sanhedrin, are NOT following the constitution, which IS the Supreme Law of the Land - they are "inventing" law; engaging in creating law that is therefore "illegal", under the "color of law", which is a felony in and of itself, not to mention their traitorous actions against this country are punishable by death.

BTW, I hope to be proven wrong with all my heart, but this is exactly why I think we'll find Ezra'a Eagle prophecy to be correct, in that we will NEVER have another president of this country; The evil cabal that currently rules this country cannot afford to let anyone into power that will hold them accountable for their actions, so they will do anything to stop it, no matter (it's what they want) what they have to do to stop it, including nuclear war. They KNOW more and more people are seeing them for what they are, and it's making it harder and harder to "select" their evil politicians, so they'll just burn it all down. We are there folks; from now to selection 2024 is going to be catastrophic - but I couldn't even begin to describe exactly who, when, and where, what, or how; it's going to be chaos, and from virtually every direction, but I doubt Kennedy or Trump are alive by then, or at least shortly after... that's my take. We shall see! Exciting, scary times! Without my family to protect, it would be a whole lot less scary - watching any of them suffer and/or die will rip my heart out, even knowing it's nothing inGod's grand scheme of things, so I'm prepping like mad to be as prepared as possible!

I have the feeling, and it is just a crazy thought not prophecy, Biden wins the next election and dies in office.

He can still be a short feather if he doesn't finish his second term, right?