LDS Freedom Forum

Original_Intent wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 12:19 pm There has already been a lot of heat (which I have participated in and got a board warning for the uncharacteristic anger with which I responded. To which the moderator sent me a private message "Breathe. Just breathe." Good adivce.

None of us knows with certainty what is going on. The very fact that the scriptures warn us of secret combination and deception in the last days of ALL sorts - we must all assume that we might be wrong on almost everything and almost certainly are wrong on many details.

While we should strive for and pray for more clarity and understanding, it is easy for us to descend into anger, sarcasm, bitterness, contention and perhaps even contention unto coming to blows with each other.
Very easy to descend into name calling and I have been guilty of all of it, so I am not pointing fingers, I am just saying be aware of yourselves.

I know people that take positions similar to mine are often considered as cowards, cupcakes, peaceniks, naive. Which I find interesting, because I am not a pacifist, in fact in the past I have been as gung-ho, all-in, and almost to redneck level "Team 'Murica!" as anyone could ask.
I would come home from work to turn on CNN so that I could watch us bombing our enemies using FLIR. So I don't condemn even the most ardent warmongers (or those under their sway) because I would simply be condemning my past self.

Well do I understand also that when a drunk falls of the right side of a horse and remounts, the next predictable thing is for him to fall off the left side. In other words, unwise that we are, even when we find ourselves in error, we almost certainly will over-correct and err in the opposite way. Hopefully, perhaps pendulum like, over time our swings become smaller and smaller and perhaps in old age we may be reduced to tiny swings hopefully over a more or less correct position.

Of course, I also observe many who maintain and even continue to get more extreme in their error, and become more and more convinced of the rightness of their position.

So a few thoughts.

Be humble. When you pray, rather than praying for the swift destruction of certain people (which i would have felt justified in doing in the past) pray instead that the hidden things of darkness will be exposed. Pray that those responsible for the acts that push us towards war will be punished.

Pray for personal understanding. Do your homework to learn to the best of your ability, but then pray that God can help you discern from all of the raw data you have ingested, that you can be guided to the truth. God will not be mocked, so if you say the words but consider that you already have it "more or less correct" you pray in vain.

I love you all, even those with whom I have "warmly (even hotly) disagreed". I sincerely believe that most if not all of you have good intentions and want what is right. I do expect that people who hold positions similar to mine are going to be silenced, mocked, called coward or unpatriotic, and so on and so forth. If you think there was an outcry against anti-vaxxers for wanting to kill grandma, you ain't seen nothing yet. I expect we will have something bigger than 9/11 happen on American soil, and anyone that wants restraint or time for discussion are going to be demonized, and sadly from what I have seen, even many here on the forum will fall in line with that position. I have in the past been told that if the U.S. were attacked and I for ANY reason chose to be a conscientious objector to war, a member of this forum said that they would feel justified to go "Captain Moroni" on me and give me the option to fight for my country or face death (at his hand, supposedly)
Clearly lacks understanding of the scriptures and also I'd rather die objecting to a war I didn't believe in than die or even survive fighting for a cause which I believed to be evil.

Again, I enjoin you to be humble and seek for accurate information and discernment to see thru untruths. Truth is the first casualty of war.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 8:10 pm Spicy here too.

nightlight wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 8:22 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 8:10 pm Spicy here too.

Opposed to good ole LDS passive aggression... lol give me the straight spice any day

Original_Intent wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 8:29 pm

nightlight wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 8:22 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 8:10 pm Spicy here too.

Opposed to good ole LDS passive aggression... lol give me the straight spice any day

I wasn't being passive aggressive. Truth is, I didn't even remember who it was that said that, but thanks so much for refreshing my memory. <---passive aggressive!

Original_Intent wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 12:19 pm There has already been a lot of heat (which I have participated in and got a board warning for the uncharacteristic anger with which I responded. To which the moderator sent me a private message "Breathe. Just breathe." Good adivce.

None of us knows with certainty what is going on. The very fact that the scriptures warn us of secret combination and deception in the last days of ALL sorts - we must all assume that we might be wrong on almost everything and almost certainly are wrong on many details.

While we should strive for and pray for more clarity and understanding, it is easy for us to descend into anger, sarcasm, bitterness, contention and perhaps even contention unto coming to blows with each other.
Very easy to descend into name calling and I have been guilty of all of it, so I am not pointing fingers, I am just saying be aware of yourselves.

I know people that take positions similar to mine are often considered as cowards, cupcakes, peaceniks, naive. Which I find interesting, because I am not a pacifist, in fact in the past I have been as gung-ho, all-in, and almost to redneck level "Team 'Murica!" as anyone could ask.
I would come home from work to turn on CNN so that I could watch us bombing our enemies using FLIR. So I don't condemn even the most ardent warmongers (or those under their sway) because I would simply be condemning my past self.

Well do I understand also that when a drunk falls of the right side of a horse and remounts, the next predictable thing is for him to fall off the left side. In other words, unwise that we are, even when we find ourselves in error, we almost certainly will over-correct and err in the opposite way. Hopefully, perhaps pendulum like, over time our swings become smaller and smaller and perhaps in old age we may be reduced to tiny swings hopefully over a more or less correct position.

Of course, I also observe many who maintain and even continue to get more extreme in their error, and become more and more convinced of the rightness of their position.

So a few thoughts.

Be humble. When you pray, rather than praying for the swift destruction of certain people (which i would have felt justified in doing in the past) pray instead that the hidden things of darkness will be exposed. Pray that those responsible for the acts that push us towards war will be punished.

Pray for personal understanding. Do your homework to learn to the best of your ability, but then pray that God can help you discern from all of the raw data you have ingested, that you can be guided to the truth. God will not be mocked, so if you say the words but consider that you already have it "more or less correct" you pray in vain.

I love you all, even those with whom I have "warmly (even hotly) disagreed". I sincerely believe that most if not all of you have good intentions and want what is right. I do expect that people who hold positions similar to mine are going to be silenced, mocked, called coward or unpatriotic, and so on and so forth. If you think there was an outcry against anti-vaxxers for wanting to kill grandma, you ain't seen nothing yet. I expect we will have something bigger than 9/11 happen on American soil, and anyone that wants restraint or time for discussion are going to be demonized, and sadly from what I have seen, even many here on the forum will fall in line with that position. I have in the past been told that if the U.S. were attacked and I for ANY reason chose to be a conscientious objector to war, a member of this forum said that they would feel justified to go "Captain Moroni" on me and give me the option to fight for my country or face death (at his hand, supposedly)
Clearly lacks understanding of the scriptures and also I'd rather die objecting to a war I didn't believe in than die or even survive fighting for a cause which I believed to be evil.

Again, I enjoin you to be humble and seek for accurate information and discernment to see thru untruths. Truth is the first casualty of war.

Original_Intent wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 12:19 pm got a board warning for the uncharacteristic anger with which I responded

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 7:31 pm Sure, some fog, But, killing innocent civilians in an unmigitated first strike of violence. Is PURE EVIL. It is of SATAN, Nothing after can be measured clearly but this can.

Niemand wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 4:36 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 7:31 pm Sure, some fog, But, killing innocent civilians in an unmigitated first strike of violence. Is PURE EVIL. It is of SATAN, Nothing after can be measured clearly but this can.

In this fog, it isn't immediately clear to some people that it isn't just Hamas that kills innocent civilians. In fact, the IDF has been pummelling Gaza for decades now, and controls the borders and what can get in and out of the place including food, water and general necessities. Many people in Gaza have been slaughtered just for living there, and coming from old families who did not want to abandon their homes like so many others have done. They are sitting at home or whatever and then they get shelled by Israeli forces. This is regardless of whether they are in Hamas or not. The IDF's aim has to be to render the place uninhabitable to all but Israeli settlers and they have bred fanaticism and cruelty by doing so.

On another note, it is the west that has also financed Islamic fundamentalism in the region. ISIS/DAESH/ISIL was western funded to bring down the Syrian government. The west also funded such people to bring down the governments of Libya and Egypt. And further back such people in Afghanistan. Some of the national funding is also coming from Saudi Arabia which gains most of its money and military hardware from the west.

(Some western weapons are also coming in from the Ukraine, which is a corrupt country and has been reselling them on the international black market.)

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 11:26 am

Niemand wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 4:36 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 7:31 pm Sure, some fog, But, killing innocent civilians in an unmigitated first strike of violence. Is PURE EVIL. It is of SATAN, Nothing after can be measured clearly but this can.

In this fog, it isn't immediately clear to some people that it isn't just Hamas that kills innocent civilians. In fact, the IDF has been pummelling Gaza for decades now, and controls the borders and what can get in and out of the place including food, water and general necessities. Many people in Gaza have been slaughtered just for living there, and coming from old families who did not want to abandon their homes like so many others have done. They are sitting at home or whatever and then they get shelled by Israeli forces. This is regardless of whether they are in Hamas or not. The IDF's aim has to be to render the place uninhabitable to all but Israeli settlers and they have bred fanaticism and cruelty by doing so.

On another note, it is the west that has also financed Islamic fundamentalism in the region. ISIS/DAESH/ISIL was western funded to bring down the Syrian government. The west also funded such people to bring down the governments of Libya and Egypt. And further back such people in Afghanistan. Some of the national funding is also coming from Saudi Arabia which gains most of its money and military hardware from the west.

(Some western weapons are also coming in from the Ukraine, which is a corrupt country and has been reselling them on the international black market.)

PERFECT EXAMPLE of you not knowing or acknowledging evil. You would equate normal military tactics to MURDERING and BEHEADING BABIES! You're compromised by evil.

I have not more to say. I was a warrior in an earlier life (USAF). I would, yes, I would have bombed buildings not knowing who was there if directed. That is war! I would never kill a baby with a sword! That is evil. You equate the two showing that you've become what Mormon said would happen in these days. I'm sorry. I cannot even type another word. I felt you had more decency that after all the posts I read. I'm sorry. Colors eventually show I guess.

Original_Intent wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 11:53 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 11:26 am

Niemand wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 4:36 am

In this fog, it isn't immediately clear to some people that it isn't just Hamas that kills innocent civilians. In fact, the IDF has been pummelling Gaza for decades now, and controls the borders and what can get in and out of the place including food, water and general necessities. Many people in Gaza have been slaughtered just for living there, and coming from old families who did not want to abandon their homes like so many others have done. They are sitting at home or whatever and then they get shelled by Israeli forces. This is regardless of whether they are in Hamas or not. The IDF's aim has to be to render the place uninhabitable to all but Israeli settlers and they have bred fanaticism and cruelty by doing so.

On another note, it is the west that has also financed Islamic fundamentalism in the region. ISIS/DAESH/ISIL was western funded to bring down the Syrian government. The west also funded such people to bring down the governments of Libya and Egypt. And further back such people in Afghanistan. Some of the national funding is also coming from Saudi Arabia which gains most of its money and military hardware from the west.

(Some western weapons are also coming in from the Ukraine, which is a corrupt country and has been reselling them on the international black market.)

PERFECT EXAMPLE of you not knowing or acknowledging evil. You would equate normal military tactics to MURDERING and BEHEADING BABIES! You're compromised by evil.

I have not more to say. I was a warrior in an earlier life (USAF). I would, yes, I would have bombed buildings not knowing who was there if directed. That is war! I would never kill a baby with a sword! That is evil. You equate the two showing that you've become what Mormon said would happen in these days. I'm sorry. I cannot even type another word. I felt you had more decency that after all the posts I read. I'm sorry. Colors eventually show I guess.

I doubt dead babies care whether they were killed by a sword targeting them specifically, or by a bomb dropped from 30,000 feet. I see and understand your differentiation between the two, and yes, one is more pure evil than the other. And I agree with you which one is more evil.

But in one regard, at least I disagree with you. I think that people that would never personally butcher a cow or a pig or even a chicken have no business eating meat. Not that everyone needs to do that as a career, but they should own what they are doing when they eat meat, meat just doesn't magically appear on store shelves.

Evil as it is (and I can't imagine anything much more evil than killing babies) the swordsman is owning what he is doing, and the airplane bomber can continue with his day, perhaps whistling a merry tune not taking ownership of having accomplished the same thing without taking responsibility "I was just following orders", "That's war." and so forth.

I'm not condemning you, I don't know you. And war is ugly and bad stuff has to happen in war. And things may have gotten a lot worse than when you served. I know a lot of recent vets (active duty in the last 20-30 years) and suffering from PTSD that many of them have confided in me was because they were peer pressured into doing atrocious things, or that they came to understand that "the mission" wasn't as justified or righteous as they had been led to believe when they enlisted.

This isn't me hating on the military at all - in many cases they are some of the best, bravest, and patriotic people. But sometimes the people that determine where and when they take military action are the worst, and those good military people just end up being the muscle for dirty corporations, power-mad leaders, and so forth. And that is not OK.

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 1:53 pm

Original_Intent wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 11:53 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 11:26 am

PERFECT EXAMPLE of you not knowing or acknowledging evil. You would equate normal military tactics to MURDERING and BEHEADING BABIES! You're compromised by evil.

I have not more to say. I was a warrior in an earlier life (USAF). I would, yes, I would have bombed buildings not knowing who was there if directed. That is war! I would never kill a baby with a sword! That is evil. You equate the two showing that you've become what Mormon said would happen in these days. I'm sorry. I cannot even type another word. I felt you had more decency that after all the posts I read. I'm sorry. Colors eventually show I guess.

I doubt dead babies care whether they were killed by a sword targeting them specifically, or by a bomb dropped from 30,000 feet. I see and understand your differentiation between the two, and yes, one is more pure evil than the other. And I agree with you which one is more evil.

But in one regard, at least I disagree with you. I think that people that would never personally butcher a cow or a pig or even a chicken have no business eating meat. Not that everyone needs to do that as a career, but they should own what they are doing when they eat meat, meat just doesn't magically appear on store shelves.

Evil as it is (and I can't imagine anything much more evil than killing babies) the swordsman is owning what he is doing, and the airplane bomber can continue with his day, perhaps whistling a merry tune not taking ownership of having accomplished the same thing without taking responsibility "I was just following orders", "That's war." and so forth.

I'm not condemning you, I don't know you. And war is ugly and bad stuff has to happen in war. And things may have gotten a lot worse than when you served. I know a lot of recent vets (active duty in the last 20-30 years) and suffering from PTSD that many of them have confided in me was because they were peer pressured into doing atrocious things, or that they came to understand that "the mission" wasn't as justified or righteous as they had been led to believe when they enlisted.

This isn't me hating on the military at all - in many cases they are some of the best, bravest, and patriotic people. But sometimes the people that determine where and when they take military action are the worst, and those good military people just end up being the muscle for dirty corporations, power-mad leaders, and so forth. And that is not OK.

ok, one point you left out, military attacks military targets Not residential areas and never sneak attacks civilians, and if they did by collateral damage, they would never take hostages of civilians, if so, never women, if even then never children. Never.

I agree on your hunting/butchering statement. I cannot stand anti-hunters or others that still eat meat. I can respect a person that is pure vegetarian as they at least live their beliefs. But, I've been to a steak house arguing killing of animals with lefties that not only like their beef, but prefer lamb, veil, or Kobe.

Original_Intent wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 1:58 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 1:53 pm

Original_Intent wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 11:53 am

I doubt dead babies care whether they were killed by a sword targeting them specifically, or by a bomb dropped from 30,000 feet. I see and understand your differentiation between the two, and yes, one is more pure evil than the other. And I agree with you which one is more evil.

But in one regard, at least I disagree with you. I think that people that would never personally butcher a cow or a pig or even a chicken have no business eating meat. Not that everyone needs to do that as a career, but they should own what they are doing when they eat meat, meat just doesn't magically appear on store shelves.

Evil as it is (and I can't imagine anything much more evil than killing babies) the swordsman is owning what he is doing, and the airplane bomber can continue with his day, perhaps whistling a merry tune not taking ownership of having accomplished the same thing without taking responsibility "I was just following orders", "That's war." and so forth.

I'm not condemning you, I don't know you. And war is ugly and bad stuff has to happen in war. And things may have gotten a lot worse than when you served. I know a lot of recent vets (active duty in the last 20-30 years) and suffering from PTSD that many of them have confided in me was because they were peer pressured into doing atrocious things, or that they came to understand that "the mission" wasn't as justified or righteous as they had been led to believe when they enlisted.

This isn't me hating on the military at all - in many cases they are some of the best, bravest, and patriotic people. But sometimes the people that determine where and when they take military action are the worst, and those good military people just end up being the muscle for dirty corporations, power-mad leaders, and so forth. And that is not OK.

ok, one point you left out, military attacks military targets Not residential areas and never sneak attacks civilians, and if they did by collateral damage, they would never take hostages of civilians, if so, never women, if even then never children. Never.

I agree on your hunting/butchering statement. I cannot stand anti-hunters or others that still eat meat. I can respect a person that is pure vegetarian as they at least live their beliefs. But, I've been to a steak house arguing killing of animals with lefties that not only like their beef, but prefer lamb, veil, or Kobe.

Thank you for clarifying that and thank you for taking my comment in the spirit it was intended and not giving me the knee-jerk kick in the teeth I was half expecting.

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 11:26 am PERFECT EXAMPLE of you not knowing or acknowledging evil. You would equate normal military tactics to MURDERING and BEHEADING BABIES! You're compromised by evil.

one point you left out, military attacks military targets Not residential areas and never sneak attacks civilians, and if they did by collateral damage, they would never take hostages of civilians, if so, never women, if even then never children. Never.

tmac wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 4:04 pm I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: There is always more to the equation than meets the eye. Almost nothing is as it seems. Let us not pretend that the modern state of Israel, and IDF, are not extremely callous about collateral damage, and killing helpless civilians. And let’s not kid ourselves that most Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are not essentially trapped, and pretty helpless. For most of them, their options, just as a matter of normal course, are pretty limited — largely thanks to how they are treated by Israel.

In the old Wild West, there was a saying about Indians — “The only good Indian is a dead Indian,” which is essentially a mirror of Israel’s attitude towards Palestinians. Many Israelis absolutely hate Palestinians. And hate is the primary driving force on both sides. Let us not forget that. And that doesn't even take into account all the agendas of TPTB and secret combinations which love to capitalize on such hate for their benefit.

TheChristian wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 9:32 am The Bible contains all the answers ........

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 13th, 2023, 9:51 pmkilling babies is ok then!