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All oath swearing is part of Satan's plan.
I guess my above post is for you too.Baurak Ale wrote: ↑October 10th, 2023, 5:26 pm You can read the original language online. I have described the penalties accurately and there is no enforced penalty of death. It is a vow upon one's life, which should be of the utmost sanctity, just as you find elsewhere in the scriptures. The main difference is the symbolic gestures of specific modes of death. People need to stop using "blood oaths" as it is a intentionally pejorative but non-specific term intended to denigrate the concept of an oath made upon one's life, which is again scriptural.
JLHPROF wrote: ↑October 10th, 2023, 6:40 pm "The reason we do not have secrets of the Lord revealed unto us is because we do not keep them but reveal them; We do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? I can keep a secret till Doomsday."
Joseph Smith
Ok, so two more people who have never read the Seron on the Mount.
Of course, Satan counterfeits God, but that doesn't mean that abominations and works of darkness have a heavenly equivalent. Sometimes darkness is just darkness. Murder is a good example. It isn't a counterfeit of something heavenly, it's just plain evil.
You need a refresher course in history my friend. It all traces back to Joseph. Sure, BY made some changes, but the original concepts are there in Nauvoo.
Of course, I’m the ignorant one… always.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 8:17 pmYou need a refresher course in history my friend. It all traces back to Joseph. Sure, BY made some changes, but the original concepts are there in Nauvoo.
You're not ignorant, you're just still stuck in the Joseph can do no wrong phase. We've all been there.
Do you like ignoring where vs 33 says "shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths;"?Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 7:55 pmJLHPROF wrote: ↑October 10th, 2023, 6:40 pm "The reason we do not have secrets of the Lord revealed unto us is because we do not keep them but reveal them; We do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? I can keep a secret till Doomsday."
Joseph SmithOk, so two more people who have never read the Seron on the Mount.
33 And again it is written, thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths;
34 But verily, verily, I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
Did you both have to combine your intellect to conflate keeping a secret with swearing an oath? Keeping secrets have nothing to do with scripture. Swearing oaths is what is condemned.
They aren't penalties; that wasn't the intended significance of the cutting gesturesLuke wrote: ↑October 10th, 2023, 5:08 amI was taking about the penalties, not the oath of vengeance. But I’m also in favour of that.Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 10th, 2023, 4:59 amNo, Joseph did not. Read the Oath of Vengeance again. That was written about Joseph, not from him. Joseph was dead by then.
I’m always amazed at what we can justify. Christ was clear about making such oaths.
Precisely. They also make for a great compelling narrative. Who doesn't like a couple blood oaths thrown into a story to keep the reader's attention?Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 7:28 pmI'm not sure what you are even referencing. The BoM condemns blood oaths.Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: ↑October 10th, 2023, 2:52 pm The Book of Mormon borrowed the blood oaths out of a need to create a compelling narrative.
You don’t know how I feel about Joseph.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 8:29 pmYou're not ignorant, you're just still stuck in the Joseph can do no wrong phase. We've all been there.
Are you kidding me!!! Can you read English?JLHPROF wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 8:33 pmDo you like ignoring where vs 33 says "shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths;"?Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 7:55 pmJLHPROF wrote: ↑October 10th, 2023, 6:40 pm "The reason we do not have secrets of the Lord revealed unto us is because we do not keep them but reveal them; We do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? I can keep a secret till Doomsday."
Joseph SmithOk, so two more people who have never read the Seron on the Mount.
33 And again it is written, thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths;
34 But verily, verily, I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
Did you both have to combine your intellect to conflate keeping a secret with swearing an oath? Keeping secrets have nothing to do with scripture. Swearing oaths is what is condemned.
Oaths to God are absolutely permitted.
God himself swore oaths. The angels swear oaths. Paul swore oaths.
Try again.
What does “perform unto the Lord thine oaths” meanShawn Henry wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 9:33 pm Anyone else want to weigh in and tell JLHPROF that the Sermon on the Mount says that we shouldn't swear any oaths, but that our communication should be yea and nay?
32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.
33 And again it is written, thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths;
34 But verily, verily, I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
35 Nor by the earth, for it is his footstool;
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair black or white;
37 But let your communication be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever cometh of more than these is evil.
More than yea and nay is evil. Not a hard read.
It wouldn't really matter what it means when the Savior says don't do it because anything more than yes or no is evil. Right?Alexander wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 9:41 pmWhat does “perform unto the Lord thine oaths” meanShawn Henry wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 9:33 pm Anyone else want to weigh in and tell JLHPROF that the Sermon on the Mount says that we shouldn't swear any oaths, but that our communication should be yea and nay?
32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.
33 And again it is written, thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths;
34 But verily, verily, I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
35 Nor by the earth, for it is his footstool;
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair black or white;
37 But let your communication be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever cometh of more than these is evil.
More than yea and nay is evil. Not a hard read.
In that verse, it comes after the command of "thou shalt not.." and then the command "but shalt" - but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oathsAlexander wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 9:41 pmWhat does “perform unto the Lord thine oaths” meanShawn Henry wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 9:33 pm Anyone else want to weigh in and tell JLHPROF that the Sermon on the Mount says that we shouldn't swear any oaths, but that our communication should be yea and nay?
32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.
33 And again it is written, thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths;
34 But verily, verily, I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
35 Nor by the earth, for it is his footstool;
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair black or white;
37 But let your communication be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever cometh of more than these is evil.
More than yea and nay is evil. Not a hard read.
Despite false doctrine, obvious manipulation, magically appearing extra drafts, silly stupid timelines, etc. he still believes 100% S132.Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 9:33 pm Anyone else want to weigh in and tell JLHPROF that the Sermon on the Mount says that we shouldn't swear any oaths, but that our communication should be yea and nay?
32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.
33 And again it is written, thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths;
34 But verily, verily, I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
35 Nor by the earth, for it is his footstool;
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair black or white;
37 But let your communication be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever cometh of more than these is evil.
More than yea and nay is evil. Not a hard read.
Daniel was a great prophet. He foresaw when the Savior would make His appearance 500+years in advance (Dan 9), he foresaw all the ruling kingdoms of the world, with the last kingdom including trans-humanism with his interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream about the statue's toes being of iron and clay (Dan 2) and this one is about the internet, 12:4, "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."ILiveIDieILiveAgain wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 12:47 am Because they thought they could actually pull off a march-around-the-walls-of-Jericho-and-make-them-fall-down like thing against the United States. When that didn't materialize - and kept not materializing - they figured they better deal with the egg on their face and sweep it all under the rug. And hope that no one would ever catch on.
Then the Internet.
Which amassed all sorts of information for easy dissemination and comparison. Indicating that the Jericho thing was probably just a(nother) big crock of crap fairy tale to try and scare people's kids into not doing things the parents didn't like.
Which raises the next question, how did former prophets never see the Internet coming about that would cause all this to happen? People have tried to show how former prophets seer'd all sorts of current, modern tidbits, but where is the internet? A literal whole world encompassing thing. If prophets could seer other pin prick modern things of our times, how did they miss a world wide thing like the Internet. Ponderize away.
You are being overly literal with these verses. You write much sophistry on this forum and don't consider that to be more than "yes or no," don't you? And why is that okay? Because you know from a common sense level that Jesus in this context is not talking about all communication; he's talking about specific instances. Ellicot's Bible commentary makes a thorough analysis and answer to your points about how these verses in the Sermon on the Mount harmonize with the MULTITUDE of instances throughout the Bible wherein solemn oath speaking is utilized:Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 9:45 pmIt wouldn't really matter what it means when the Savior says don't do it because anything more than yes or no is evil. Right?Alexander wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 9:41 pmWhat does “perform unto the Lord thine oaths” meanShawn Henry wrote: ↑October 11th, 2023, 9:33 pm Anyone else want to weigh in and tell JLHPROF that the Sermon on the Mount says that we shouldn't swear any oaths, but that our communication should be yea and nay?
32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whoso shall marry her who is divorced committeth adultery.
33 And again it is written, thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths;
34 But verily, verily, I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
35 Nor by the earth, for it is his footstool;
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair black or white;
37 But let your communication be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever cometh of more than these is evil.
More than yea and nay is evil. Not a hard read.
Yet Hugh Nibley was one of the most ardent defenders of the Temple Ordinances, penalties and all. How strange, given that he was one of the only ones reading the Book of Mormon.BringerOfJoy wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 8:46 am I haven't read the intervening posts, so HOPEFULLY others have gotten to it first, BUT the reason they missed it was because no one was reading the Book of Mormon. Shoot, hardly anyone was reading it in 1974 when I joined the church except Hugh Nibley and an occasional institute teacher/student here or there. But there it was, hidden in plain sight, all along. The missionaries were kept pretty busy with the sales-type tracts, and flannel board discussions at the time. Sterling W. Sill style, right?
It’s almost as if they don’t contradict the Book of Mormon.Amen. Hugh Nibley would be the first to tell you that there is no contradiction. He knew the truth and I have always loved him for it. God bless his departed soul!Luke wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 8:51 amYet Hugh Nibley was one of the most ardent defenders of the Temple Ordinances, penalties and all. How strange, given that he was one of the only ones reading the Book of Mormon.BringerOfJoy wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 8:46 am I haven't read the intervening posts, so HOPEFULLY others have gotten to it first, BUT the reason they missed it was because no one was reading the Book of Mormon. Shoot, hardly anyone was reading it in 1974 when I joined the church except Hugh Nibley and an occasional institute teacher/student here or there. But there it was, hidden in plain sight, all along. The missionaries were kept pretty busy with the sales-type tracts, and flannel board discussions at the time. Sterling W. Sill style, right?It’s almost as if they don’t contradict the Book of Mormon.
Wow! So you find some scholar that says, no, it's just the "needless multiplication of oaths" that Jesus was talking about, and you believe a scholar over the words of Jesus in plain English. IBaurak Ale wrote: ↑October 12th, 2023, 7:53 am You are being overly literal with these verses. the needless multiplication of oaths,
