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Are temple baptisms "putting trust in dead works"?

Posted: October 7th, 2023, 8:32 am
by Reluctant Watchman
Toward the end of Moroni's life, he prophesies of our day and things that would go on. In particular, he talks about us putting our trust in dead works, particularly baptism for those who have died without the law:
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.
How are the current practices of vicarious baptism any different than the dead works he is talking about here?

Re: Are temple baptisms "putting trust in dead works"?

Posted: October 7th, 2023, 8:46 am
by Reluctant Watchman
To go along with the OP, a friend shared this on FB, which has very close parallels to what Moroni taught:

I wanted to share an experience I had several weeks ago with our family. As most of you know we left the church a few months ago and it’s been a bit of an adjustment. We had to figure out for ourselves how we wanted to worship from that point forward. We decided we didn't want to follow any more men. They don’t seem to have the best motives.

So instead, every Sunday at home we partake of the sacrament (communion) to remember our Savior and His sacrifice for us, then we play games with the kids to help boost their basic knowledge of the scriptures and we will read a chapter in the scriptures that either myself or Rich has selected for that week with our two eldest daughters.

On this particular week, Rich had selected Mosiah 3 in the Book of Mormon. For those of you who don’t know or recall this chapter, it is an account from King Benjamin wherein he describes an angel appearing to him and gives a beautiful account of Christ and His life and the purpose of His coming to the earth to save mankind.

We were about eight verses in when our oldest Eden (15) raises the question “What will happen then to all the people who never believed in Christ and never had a chance to accept Him? Do they even get an opportunity or are they just damned?” When we were practicing Mormons we would have answered that the work we do for the dead in the temple will provide them with the opportunity to accept Christ after this life, but now that we no longer believe that the temple or anything we did inside it saves anyone (that is through Christ alone) we didn’t know how to respond to her. We continued reading and when we got to verse 11 I was hit with a ton of bricks.

“For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.”

I have somehow never noticed that scripture before. I remember just sitting there open-mouthed and I said “Oh my gosh Eden this answers your question!” The entire room was filled with the spirit of God and I felt the love He has for all mankind no matter who we are or what we’ve done. It was overwhelming. I couldn’t contain my emotion.

Christ alone saves us, He can do His own work, He doesn’t need us, and through His blood alone mankind is saved.

Re: Are temple baptisms "putting trust in dead works"?

Posted: October 7th, 2023, 9:23 am
by Robin Hood
Reluctant Watchman wrote: October 7th, 2023, 8:32 am Toward the end of Moroni's life, he prophesies of our day and things that would go on. In particular, he talks about us putting our trust in dead works, particularly baptism for those who have died without the law:
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.
How are the current practices of vicarious baptism any different than the dead works he is talking about here?
You make a good point.
I guess the question is, to what extent were our ancestors without law?

Re: Are temple baptisms "putting trust in dead works"?

Posted: October 7th, 2023, 9:31 am
by Reluctant Watchman
Robin Hood wrote: October 7th, 2023, 9:23 am
You make a good point.
I guess the question is, to what extent were our ancestors without law?
And at what point is a vicarious work part of the process for those who are "with" the law, yet die?

Re: Are temple baptisms "putting trust in dead works"?

Posted: October 7th, 2023, 9:33 am
by Reluctant Watchman
I'm now searching through the Nemenhah Record for vicarious works. This is the first thing I've found:
336) Then shall my people once again approach me without persecution. Then the very elect shall no longer be deceived. Then shall my prophets sit no longer in stupor or in idleness of thought.

37) But their building and their teaching shall once again be for the profit of both living and dead. Then shall my people turn again from their pride and their riches and embrace their Peacemaker.

38) And this shall be a sign unto you, Oh house of Itsrahhayl – in the day when the holy incense is taken away from the ordinances of my Holy House, yea, and in the day when the dead sacrifice shall have been restored but shall have taken precedence over the living, yea, in the day when those whom I shall call to stretch forth the hand to steady the ark shall teach my children to follow their words and their doctrine, and not to seek the Holy Ghost in all things, yea, in the day when the place of my daughters shall have been reduced to a place of compulsion and servitude unto the men, then shall the time be ripe for the fulfillment of my words.

Re: Are temple baptisms "putting trust in dead works"?

Posted: October 7th, 2023, 9:36 am
by Reluctant Watchman
And more:
8) From the Place of the World, we ascend to the Place of Sacrifice. In this place we learn of the choices and actions that our first parents made in order to become worthy to receive light and knowledge from heaven. We ascend into this building because it marks the first of the reparative footsteps of Adam and Eve, steps which we must also follow in order to return into the presence of the Peacemaker. In this place we are instructed in the meaning of the Pillar of Sacrifice and how we may also offer up a living sacrifice unto the Creator for the sake of all living, and for the sake of the dead. It is in this place that the robes of the Pehli are placed upon the man and the woman. The woman wears the robes on both shoulders and the man on that shoulder fitting his development and his progress.

Re: Are temple baptisms "putting trust in dead works"?

Posted: October 7th, 2023, 9:41 am
by Reluctant Watchman
This is probably the most detailed quote that speaks to their practices, yet also condemns the modern church for what the ordinances and the work done in the House of the Lord has become. These people worshiped in behalf of their dead, but not for them, not in place of them.
37) Is this a hard thing to understand? That you should be allowed to act in the name of another and offer a sacrifice that is justified by the Peacemaker? Is it hard for you to understand that you may become Saviors in Creation? I do not suggest that you may do the thing which the Great Sahnhehmpeht did when He offered up a sacrifice for all. But I do suggest and admonish you that you may yet do like unto Him, for and in behalf of your kindred dead. Do this work in this Holy Place.

38) But, I also admonish you, do not allow this place to become a place of dead worship and sacrifice. If it so be that the more part of your work here is for the dead, then you must begin again in the spirit of true instruction.

39) Do not allow the work for the dead to overshadow the preparation of the living. For, if they who are living fail to seek the face of Sahnhehmpeht, preferring to serve wholly for the purpose of saving the dead, then a living spirit of sacrifice is not conveyed in the ordinance.

40) Do not suppose that any of your kindred dead will be interested in such vanity. Nay, the spirit of living sacrifice must be in your heart for it to be conveyed to them who might benefit from it, both living and dead.

41) Ponder these things in your hearts. For, verily I say unto you, the day shall come when your descendants shall go up to their temples and offer up oblation unto their god for and in behalf of the dead, just as I hope you shall do hereafter, but they shall stay not upon the words of peace.

42) Nay, they shall take no time at all in instruction and in pondering. Behold, they shall be like cattle in the stall, performing only that which is necessary and in the shortest time. Behold, they might just as well have stayed at home in their beds, for their kindred dead shall take no interest in such self-service.

43) Yea, I say they shall serve themselves and take pride in their service. They shall stand up and praise themselves for the great and glorious work they are doing in the name of their god.

Re: Are temple baptisms "putting trust in dead works"?

Posted: October 7th, 2023, 9:58 am
by Reluctant Watchman
And more:
12) This is the Endowment of Power. To walk in the presence of Heavenly Beings is a blessing and an endowment indeed. And it is for this purpose – that men and women might progress in grace and in wisdom, in faith and in virtue to that point of perfection whereby they do overcome the veil in them that does prevent them from entering upon the Way and taking instruction from Angels, from their kindred dead, and also from Jesus Christ – that the works of the Temple are given.
In a very literal way, they spoke w/ their dead.

Re: Are temple baptisms "putting trust in dead works"?

Posted: October 7th, 2023, 10:32 am
by sushi_chef
prolly there are some lds members near death experience talks on temple works, kinda recalls two,
one is , does not think it's fiction , ..

"HEAVENLY MANIFESTATION by Heber C. Hale, President of Boise Stake of The Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter Day Saints

It is with a very humble and grateful spirit that I attempt to relate on this occasion, by request, a
personal experience which is very sacred to me. I must of necessity be brief. Furthermore, there were
certain things made known to me which I don not feel at liberty to relate here. Let me say by way of preface
that between the hours of 1:00 AM and 7:30 AM on the night of January 20, 1920, while alone in a room at
the home of my friend, W. J. Rawson of Carey, Idaho, this glorious manifestation was vouchsafed to me.
I was not conscious of anything that transpired during the hours mentioned, except that I experienced
in this manifestation. I did not turn in bed, nor was I disturbed by any sound, which is indeed unusual for
me. Whether it be called a dream, an apparition, a vision or a pilgrimage of my spirit into the world of
spirits, I know not--I care not. I know that I actually saw and experienced the things related in this Heavenly
Manifestation, and they are as real to me as any experience of my life. For me, at least, this is sufficient.
Of all the doctrines and practices of the Church, the vicarious work for the dead had been the most
difficult for me to comprehend and whole-heartedly accept. I consider this vision as the Lord's answer to
the prayer of my soul on this and other certain questions.

I passed but a short distance from my body through a film into the world of spirits. This was my first
experience after going to sleep. I seemed to realize that I had passed through the change called death and
I so referred to it in my conversation with the immortal beings with whom I came immediately into contact.
I readily observed their displeasure at our use of the word "death" and the fear we attached to it. They use
there another word in referring to the transition form mortality to immortality which I do not now recall,
and I can only approach its meaning, as the impression was left upon my mind, they called it a new birth.
My first visual impression was the nearness of the world of spirits to the world of mortality. The
vastness of this Heavenly sphere was bewildering to the eyes of a spirit novice. Many enjoyed unrestricted
vision and unimpeded action while others were visibly restricted to both vision and action. The vegetation
and landscape wee beautiful beyond description, not all green as here, but gold with varying shades of pink,
orange and lavender, as the rainbow. A sweet calmness prevaded everything. The people I met there, I did
not think of as spirits but as men and women, self-thinking and self-acting individuals, going about important
business in a most orderly manner. There was perfect order and everybody had something to do and seemed
about their business in a most orderly manner.

That the inhabitants of the spirit world are classified according to their lives of purity and their
subservience to the Father's will was subsequently made apparent. Particularly was it observed that the
wicked and unrepentant are confined to a certain district by themselves, the confines of which are as
definitely determined and impassable as the line marking the division of the physical from the spiritual
world, a mere film, but impassable until the person himself has changed. This world of spirits is the
temporary abode of all spirits pending the resurrection from the dead, and the judgment. There was much
activity within the different spheres, and appointed ministers of salvation were seen coming from the higher
to the lower spheres to pursue missionary appointments.

I had a very pronounced desire to meet certain of my kinsfolk and friends, but I was at once
impressed with the fact that I had entered a tremendously great and extensive world, even greater than the
earth and more numerously inhabited. I could not only be in one place at a time, could only do one thing at
a time, could look in only one direction at a time, and accordingly it would require many, many years to
search out and converse with all those I had known and those whom I desired to meet, unless they were
specially summoned to receive me. All worthy men and women were appointed to special and regular service
under a very organized plan of action, directed principally toward preaching the Gospel to the unconverted,
teaching those who seek knowledge, and establishing family relationship and gathering genealogies for the
use and benefit of mortal survivors of their respective families, that work of baptism and sealing ordinances
may be vicariously performed for the departed in the Temples of God upon the earth. The authorized
representatives of families in the world of spirits have access to our temple records and are kept fully advised
of the work done therein, but the vicarious work here does not become automatically effective there.
The recipients must first believe, repent, and accept baptism and confirmation, then certain
consummation ordinances are performed of actualizing these saving principles in the lives of these beings.

I was surprised to find no babies in arms. I met the infant son of Orion W. Rawlings, my first
counselor. I immediately recognized him as the baby who died a few years ago, and yet he seemed to have
the intelligence and in certain respects the appearance of an adult. He was engaged in matters pertaining
to his family and their genealogy. My mind was quite contented on the point that mothers will again receive
into their arms their children who died in infancy and will be fully satisfied, but the fact remains that
entrance into the world is not an extenuation of growth, but the greater opportunity for development. Babies
are adult spirits in infant bodies.

I presently beheld a mighty multitude of men, the largest I had ever seen gathered in one place, who
I immediately recognized as soldiers, the millions who had been slaughtered and rushed so savagely into the
world of spirits during the time of the great world war. Among them moved calmly and majestically a great
general in supreme command. As I drew nearer, I received a kindly smile and generous welcome from that
great loving man, General Richard W. Young. Then came the positive conviction to my soul that of all the
men, living or dead, there is not one who is so perfectly fitted for the great mission unto which he had been
called. He commands immediately, that attention and respect of all his soldiers. He is at once a great general
and a great High Priest of God. No earthly field of labor to which he could have been assigned can compare
with it in importance and extent. I passed from this scene to return later when I found General Young had
these divisions all seated, and he was preaching the Gospel in great earnestness to them.

As I passed forward, I met my beloved mother. She greeted me most affectionately and expressed her
surprise at seeing me there and reminded me that my mission on earth was not completed. She seemed to
be going somewhere and was in a hurry and accordingly took her leave, saying that she would see me again.
I moved forward, covering an appreciable distance and consuming considerable time, viewing the
wonderful sights of landscape, parks, trees and flowers, and meeting people--some of whom I knew, but many
thousands of whom I didn't recognize as acquaintances. I presently approached a group of men, standing
in a patch lined with spacious stretches of flowers, grass and shrubbery as a golden hue--marking the
approach to a beautiful building. The group was engaged in earnest conversation. One of their number
parted from the rest and came walking down the path. I at once recognized my esteemed president, Joseph
F. Smith. He embraced me as a father would his son, and after a few words of greeting, remarked, "You
have not come to stay," which remark I understood more as a declaration than an interrogation. For the
first time I became fully conscious of my uncompleted mission on earth, and as much as I would have liked
to remain, he replied, "And I shall take the matter up with the authorities, and let you know later."

We then turned and he led me to the little group of men whom he had left. I immediately recognized
President Brigham Young and the Prophet Joseph Smith. I was surprised to fine President Young a shorter
and heavier built man that I had pictured, and on the other hand I found the Prophet Joseph much taller
than I had expected to find him. Both they and President Smith possessed a calm and holy majesty which
was at once kind and kingly. President Smith introduced me to the others, who greeted me warmly. We then
retraced our steps and President Smith took his leave, saying he would see me again.

From a certain vantage point I was permitted to view the earth and what was going on here. There
was no limitation to my vision and I was astounded at this. I saw my wife and children at home. I saw
President Heber J. Grant at the head of the great Church and kingdom of God, and felt the divine power that
radiated from God. I saw towns and cities, the sin and wickedness of men and women. I saw vessels sailing
upon the oceans and scanned the battle-scarred fields of France and Belgium. In a word, I beheld the whole
world as if it were a panorama passing before my eyes. Then there came to me the unmistakable impression
that this world and persons upon it are open to the vision of the spirits only when special permission is given
or when they are assigned to special service here. This is particularly true of the righteous who are busily
engaged in the service of the Lord and who cannot be engaged in two fields of activity at the same time. The
wicked and unrepentant spirits having still, like the rest, their free agency, and applying themselves to no
useful or wholesome undertaking, seek their pleasure about their old haunts and exult in the sin and
wretchedness of degenerate humanity. To this extent they are the tools of Satan. It is these idle, mischievous,
and deceptive spirits who appear as miserable counterfeits at spiritualistic seances, table dancing, etc. The
noble and great ones do not respond to the call. They would not do it in mortality, certainly they would not
do it in their increased state of knowledge in the world of immortality. These wicked and unrepentant spirits
are allies of Satan and his host, operating through willing mediums in the flesh, these three forces constitute
an unholy trinity upon the earth and are responsible for all the sin, wickedness, and misery among men and
nations.

While standing at a certain vantage point, I beheld a wonderfully beautiful temple capped with golden
domes from which emerged a small group of men dressed in white robes. They paused in conversation.
These were the first I had seen thus clad. The persons that I had previously seen were dressed of course, but
dressed variously. The soldiers, for instance, were in uniform. In this little group of holy men, my eyes
centered on one, more resplendent and holy than the rest. While I thus gazed, Joseph F. Smith parted from
the others and came to my side. "Do you know him?", he inquired. I quickly answered, "Yes, I know Him.
My eyes beheld my Lord and Saviour." "It is true," said President Smith. Oh how my soul filled with
rapture--unspeakable joy filled my heart. President Smith informed that I had been given permission to
return and complete my mission upon the earth which the Lord had appointed me to fulfill, and then with
his hand upon my shoulder, uttered these memorable and significant words: "Brother Heber, you have a
great work to do. Go forward with a prayerful heart and you shall be blessed in your ministry. From this
time on, never doubt that God lives, Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Saviour of the world. That the
Holy Ghost is the God of Spirit and the messenger of the Father and the Son. Never doubt the resurrection
of the dead: The immortality of the soul.

The destiny of men is eternal progress. Never again doubt that the mission of work in the temples for
the salvation of the dead has only begun. Know this, that Joseph Smith was sent by God to usher in the
Gospel dispensation of the fullness of times, which is the last to mortals upon the earth. His successors have
all been called and approved by God. President Heber J. Grant is at this time the recognized and ordained
head of the Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth. Give him your confidence and support. Much you have
seen and heard here you will not be able to repeat when you return. Then he bade me goodbye saying, "God
bless you."

Quite a distance through various scenes and passing innumerable people, I traveled before I reached
the sphere which I first entered. On my way I was greeted by many friends and relatives, certain of whom
sent words of greeting and counsel to their dear ones here, my mother being one of them. One other I will
mention. I met Brother John Adamson, his wife, his son James, and daughter Isabel, all of whom were killed
by the hand of a foul assassin in their home at Carcy, Idaho, on the evening of November 29, 1915. They
seemed to divine that I was on my way back to earth and immediately said: (Brother Adamson speaking)
"Tell the children that we are very happy and very busy and they should not mourn our departure nor worry
their minds over the manner by which were taken. There is a purpose in it and we have a work here to do
which requires our collective efforts and which we could not do individually." I was at once made to know
that the work referred to was genealogy on which they were working in England and Scotland.

One of the grand and most sacred things of Heaven is the family relationship. The establishment of
a complete chain without any broken links brings a fullness of joy. Links welded together. Men and women
everywhere throughout the world are being moved upon by their departed ancestors to gather genealogies.
These are links for the chain. The ordinances of baptism, endowments, and sealings performed in the
Temples of God by the living for the dead are the welding of the links. Ordinances are performed in the
spirit world, effectualizing in the individual recipients the saving principles of the Gospel vicariously
performed here.

As I was approaching the place where I had entered, my attention was attracted toward a number of
small groups of women, preparing what appeared to be wearing apparel.
Observing my inquiring countenance, one of the women remarked: "We are preparing to receive
Brother Phillip Worthington very soon." (Phillip Worthington died on January 22, 1920. President Hale
was advised by telegram and returned to Boise and preached the funeral sermon on January 25, 1920.) As
I gasped his name in repetition I was admonished, "If you knew the joy and glorious mission that awaits him
here, you would not ask to have him longer detained upon the earth."

Then came flooding my consciousness this beautiful thought: The will of the Lord can be done on
earth as it is in Heaven--only when we resign completely to His will and let His will be done in and through
us. On account of selfishness of men, the assertion of personal will as against the will of God, many persons
who might otherwise have been taken in innocence and peace have been permitted to live, and have passed
a life of suffering and misery or debauchery and crime and have lived to their own peril. Men and women
and children are often called to missions of great importance on the other side, and some respond gladly
while others refuse to go and their loved ones will not give them up. Also, many die because they have not
faith to be healed. Yet others live long and pass out of the world of mortals without any special manifestation
or action of the divine will. When a man is stricken ill, the question of prime importance is
not--is he going to live or die so long as the will of the Father is done. Surely we can trust Him so long as he
is with God. Herein lies a special duty and privilege of administration of the Holy Priesthood namely: It is
given the Elders of the Church of Christ to divine the Will of the Father concerning the one upon whose head
their hands are laid. If for any reason they are unable to presage the Father's will, they should then continue
to pray for the afflicted one, humbly conceding supremacy of the Will of God, that His will may be done on
earth as it is in Heaven.
"
https://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONKC/halesp.pdf

"“Heavenly Manifestations”: Provenance and Modern Devotion
MAY 19, 2011
..
WVS says:
May 19, 2011
..
UofU also has a copy of the vision with this bio note:

The Heavenly Manifestation Given to Heber Q. Hale, President of the Boise Stake” of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, occurred during the night of 20 January 1920, and related to the church principle of vicarious work for the dead. In the five-page typescript, Hale describes passing from his body into the spirit world, the temporary abode of all spirits pending the resurrection and final judgment. He describes meeting various people who had passed on, the beauty of the landscape and surroundings, and witnessing the multitudes of people carrying out the genealogical work. Hale concludes with the testimony that the mission of the Latter-day Saints is to all mankind, both the living and the dead, and that the destiny of men is eternal progress. Heber Quincy Hale (1880-1969) was born at Thatcher, Bannock County, Idaho, to Solomon H. Hale and Anna Clark. The family moved to Preston, Idaho. Heber graduated from the Oneida Stake Academy in 1899. He served his church and his state. He served also as a correspondent to the Deseret News in Salt Lake City. ..
"
https://bycommonconsent.com/2011/05/19/ ... -devotion/
heber hale manifestation
https://duckduckgo.com/?va=n&t=ha&q=heb ... ion&ia=web
:arrow: