Does the LDS church have valid ordinances?

[Luke]

Ok it’s making sense to me I believe. I looked at some scriptures and I believe this is *one* of several possibilities. I am still unclear about one mighty and strong or how the church would be set in order if it is out of order right now (which I believe it is), so I am currently favoring this theory but I will need to study, pray, so on. And validate if snuffer truly did wrest the keys or anything like that. Thank you for your answers!

The Davidic Servant will set in order what has has been messed up by the out of order LDS Church. I don't think it says the church will be set in order. I believe the church will NOT be set in order but will continue on in its out of order state. The Servant will correct the bad doctrines and give what the Lord would have happen from this point on. It will be outside of the LDS Church.

Okay I see. The servant will do something *outside* the formal lds organization then in your understanding. How do we know that it will be outside the organization though?

The keys were wrested from the Church over 100 years ago. God’s work from that point onwards had been primarily outside of the Church — though that doesn’t mean that the Church died instantly.

[Luke]

I am agnostic about whether that happened with peter, james, john and then moses, and so on in the Kirkland temple. Or at the Morley farm or at another time. I do think when Jesus went to the mount and communed with moses and Elias that could be something similar but I am not sure yet.

The Morley Farm event was Joseph introducing the sealing power — at least the power to seal up to eternal life — and concentrating it within the office of High Priest — an office within the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James, and John. This power, later on, also existed within other offices of the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood. For example, William Clayton noted that he acted in the office of an Elder when he performed a sealing in May 1843. And Patriarchs were well known to have sealed people up to eternal life in patriarchal blessings.

[fractal_light_harvest]

Ok here is my take on things...I am trying to figure things out like you...having served a mission and being sealed to my wife in the temple.

I have stopped trusting the LDS church because of they are obviously going against the scriptures.

I guess I have held tighter to the new testament and what Christ himself taught.

Here are some verses that have really stood out to me about what Christ taught and established that seems off from my LDS upbringing. It also raises questions on power and authority and ordinances that were performed.

Mathew 8

24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

(Power of the miracles is brought in by faith in Jesus Christ. This is what caused Peter to walk on water. I don't think priesthood has anything to do with it.) (So far this is my current belief)


(When Christ first called his 12 disciples these were the rules they needed to live by...)


Mathew 10

1.And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

(I believe this power they had was really faith in Jesus Christ)

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

(True disciples don't collect money/tithes for the work. The gospel and miracles performed is always was free. John the Baptist didn't get money and neither did Christ.) ( John was teaching people in the wilderness and baptizing them. John wasn't feasting on rib eye steaks in a synagogue...He was eating locusts and honey out in the wilderness for heaven sakes!)

Mathew 23

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

(I also believe this negates every religion from qualifying to be Christ's on the basis that they all collect money from their followers to get gain)

Mathew 10

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

(Church leaders during Christ's time would would make up councils and scourge his disciples. Christ is warning his disciples when he first called them. Sound familiar in the LDS church?)

Mathew 12

9. And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:

(Christ enters the church or synagogue)

10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

(Christ preached in the synagogues or churches healed a bunch of people then left into the wilderness... and the people followed him...Can you imagine this happening in an LDS congregation? The only one left would be the bishopric in the stands...now imagine if there was a paid ministry...no wonder they wanted Christ dead)


(Christ didn't preach inclusivity and peacefulness like the LDS teach.)

Mathew 10

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mathew 21

12. And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

( He cast out the money changers selling doves in the temple. You cannot buy salvation in the temple)

14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

( sore displeased...because he cut off their money revenue)

(What authority did he really give...)

Mathew 16

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(For this statement to be true from Christ there was neither an apostasy nor a restoration) (christ teaching have survived through the years....Are we talking about a physical church or a spiritual church?)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(I believe these keys are not authoritative like the Pharisees and Sadducees preached but a spiritual state of being of one self)

(Further proof of this spiritual state of being was taught by Paul)

1 Corinthians 3

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

(Paul walked with Christ why did he say this..? He wasnt talking about a physical place that saves you...the kingdom of God is for those following Christ teachings in their heart and acting on the spiritual prompting of the holy ghost to love god and your fellow man with your whole heart. Miracles are performed with faith in Christ not priesthood authority.)

(If this wasn't the case why did Christ say this...?)

Mark 9

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

(This guy is performing miracles in Christ's name but neither does Christ, nor his disciples know of him...then John is questioning if he has "authority" to do this...Christ then teaches that miracles can't happen if they don't believe/faith in Christ)

(Christ further shows how important his spiritual teachings are to men)

Mathew 16

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

(He will reward a man according to his spiritual works and faith in him)

Luke 17

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

( They were counting how many steps they took on the sabath for observance...)

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(The kingdom of God resides within you)

John 18

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

(His kingdom is a spiritual one not a physical manifistation of a building)

Mathew 21

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

(Faith is the power not the priesthood)

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

(Isn't this what you are asking who has authority?)

24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

(One thing is clear miracles follow the believers of Christ...and by their fruits you will know them...if God called a prophet)

Thank you for taking the time to give a thorough response Refraction75. I *personally* agree with most of your points or the way you interpret the scriptures you quote.

I believe that ministers should not be paid for any preaching or ordinances they perform or teaching or management that is considered *within* the church. This is an area where I believe many churches including the lds falter and should probably repent. I believe the LDS use a “loophole” to justify paying their top leaders by saying they are paying them for their administrative and business work and not for doing ordinances etc. and since they use the interest from the tithing and not the tithing itself but this stipend allows them to work for the church full time and takes care of all their needs more or less, so they are literally being supported by the church and have no need to work or have careers any longer. I personally believe this is *very* wrong and one reason the holy ghost left. I also believe they set themselves up as a light and insert themselves into creeds that members must accept to be baptized and so on which is priestcraft according to the Book of Mormon. They also use church resources and money when they travel for church business and no longer go out without taking purse or scrip and so on which Christ said *not* to do.

I agree with you that there is an overemphasis on physical buildings and physical or outward acts, churches and groups rather than on the inward. Like Moroni says “all churches have become polluted and there are very few *humble* followers of Christ” since it is always *physical* things that are the focus of the churches and these physical things are geared towards accumulating money or displaying wealth and worldly power and status, *not* primarily towards turning the heart to Christ in a humble way as a matter of principle.

I also believe like you that faith is a form of spiritual power. Priesthood is not necessary to heal or perform miracles or prophesy and so on. The gifts of the spirit are not based on priesthood but on the Holy Ghost. Children, women and men can all have angels speak to them. Angels speak by the power of the holy ghost so women and children can also do miracles and speak the words of angels and so on. This is another area where I’ve come to disagree with the LDS and believe their institutional policies and culture mistreat women doctrinally and subjugate them to their priesthood. In the LDS church women and also children are subordinate to the male only priesthood. I do *not* believe this is Christ’s way.

But one area where I believe we *may* see things differently is that I believe there is such a thing as priesthood power because of how D&C 121 reads and so on. I believe *only* some men can perform valid ordinances and women cannot do them. But I do *not* believe this makes women inferior in any way or that they need to subjugate themselves to men ideologically or doctrinally within the church solely because there are men in the same church, except in marriage where both sexes should seek to be one and serve each other (and so both are subjugated to each other in a way through marriage).

I believe faith is how one can gain priesthood power. Faith is what allows a man to gain power from Christ to enact valid ordinances is my theory right now, but that man still needs approval and *specific* power from Christ to do it, as the book of mormon shows or explains. Any person can perform a miracle though, or see a vision, or prophesy and so on as long as their faith is sufficient. But we can also see from the bible that *both* men and women can be deceived by false spirits and so on.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

So members of gileadi’s group are primarily waiting on the Davidic servant to appear on the scene?

Gileadi's group? I'm totally unaware of him having a group.

I’m not sure if they have a formal group or not. Sounds like no, but based on his books, people who believe in them would be looking for a Davidic servant to appear? He is still a Mormon I believe?

It's based on Isaiah, not Gileadi.

[fractal_light_harvest]

Gileadi's group? I'm totally unaware of him having a group.

I’m not sure if they have a formal group or not. Sounds like no, but based on his books, people who believe in them would be looking for a Davidic servant to appear? He is still a Mormon I believe?

It's based on Isaiah, not Gileadi.

Okay I see. But it’s my understanding that it’s gileadi’s unique *interpretation* and translation? of Isaiah he discusses in his books I believe. Which I believe is as valid as any other more or less.

[Magus]

By current count, looks like this community is split about 50/50 on whether or not the LDS Church has the authority. Interesting.

[John Tavner]

Ok here is my take on things...I am trying to figure things out like you...having served a mission and being sealed to my wife in the temple.

I have stopped trusting the LDS church because of they are obviously going against the scriptures.

I guess I have held tighter to the new testament and what Christ himself taught.

Here are some verses that have really stood out to me about what Christ taught and established that seems off from my LDS upbringing. It also raises questions on power and authority and ordinances that were performed.

Mathew 8

24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

(Power of the miracles is brought in by faith in Jesus Christ. This is what caused Peter to walk on water. I don't think priesthood has anything to do with it.) (So far this is my current belief)


(When Christ first called his 12 disciples these were the rules they needed to live by...)


Mathew 10

1.And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

(I believe this power they had was really faith in Jesus Christ)

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

(True disciples don't collect money/tithes for the work. The gospel and miracles performed is always was free. John the Baptist didn't get money and neither did Christ.) ( John was teaching people in the wilderness and baptizing them. John wasn't feasting on rib eye steaks in a synagogue...He was eating locusts and honey out in the wilderness for heaven sakes!)

Mathew 23

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

(I also believe this negates every religion from qualifying to be Christ's on the basis that they all collect money from their followers to get gain)

Mathew 10

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

(Church leaders during Christ's time would would make up councils and scourge his disciples. Christ is warning his disciples when he first called them. Sound familiar in the LDS church?)

Mathew 12

9. And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:

(Christ enters the church or synagogue)

10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

(Christ preached in the synagogues or churches healed a bunch of people then left into the wilderness... and the people followed him...Can you imagine this happening in an LDS congregation? The only one left would be the bishopric in the stands...now imagine if there was a paid ministry...no wonder they wanted Christ dead)


(Christ didn't preach inclusivity and peacefulness like the LDS teach.)

Mathew 10

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mathew 21

12. And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

( He cast out the money changers selling doves in the temple. You cannot buy salvation in the temple)

14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

( sore displeased...because he cut off their money revenue)

(What authority did he really give...)

Mathew 16

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(For this statement to be true from Christ there was neither an apostasy nor a restoration) (christ teaching have survived through the years....Are we talking about a physical church or a spiritual church?)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(I believe these keys are not authoritative like the Pharisees and Sadducees preached but a spiritual state of being of one self)

(Further proof of this spiritual state of being was taught by Paul)

1 Corinthians 3

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

(Paul walked with Christ why did he say this..? He wasnt talking about a physical place that saves you...the kingdom of God is for those following Christ teachings in their heart and acting on the spiritual prompting of the holy ghost to love god and your fellow man with your whole heart. Miracles are performed with faith in Christ not priesthood authority.)

(If this wasn't the case why did Christ say this...?)

Mark 9

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

(This guy is performing miracles in Christ's name but neither does Christ, nor his disciples know of him...then John is questioning if he has "authority" to do this...Christ then teaches that miracles can't happen if they don't believe/faith in Christ)

(Christ further shows how important his spiritual teachings are to men)

Mathew 16

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

(He will reward a man according to his spiritual works and faith in him)

Luke 17

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

( They were counting how many steps they took on the sabath for observance...)

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(The kingdom of God resides within you)

John 18

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

(His kingdom is a spiritual one not a physical manifistation of a building)

Mathew 21

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

(Faith is the power not the priesthood)

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

(Isn't this what you are asking who has authority?)

24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

(One thing is clear miracles follow the believers of Christ...and by their fruits you will know them...if God called a prophet)

Thank you for taking the time to give a thorough response Refraction75. I *personally* agree with most of your points or the way you interpret the scriptures you quote.

I believe that ministers should not be paid for any preaching or ordinances they perform or teaching or management that is considered *within* the church. This is an area where I believe many churches including the lds falter and should probably repent. I believe the LDS use a “loophole” to justify paying their top leaders by saying they are paying them for their administrative and business work and not for doing ordinances etc. and since they use the interest from the tithing and not the tithing itself but this stipend allows them to work for the church full time and takes care of all their needs more or less, so they are literally being supported by the church and have no need to work or have careers any longer. I personally believe this is *very* wrong and one reason the holy ghost left. I also believe they set themselves up as a light and insert themselves into creeds that members must accept to be baptized and so on which is priestcraft according to the Book of Mormon. They also use church resources and money when they travel for church business and no longer go out without taking purse or scrip and so on which Christ said *not* to do.

I agree with you that there is an overemphasis on physical buildings and physical or outward acts, churches and groups rather than on the inward. Like Moroni says “all churches have become polluted and there are very few *humble* followers of Christ” since it is always *physical* things that are the focus of the churches and these physical things are geared towards accumulating money or displaying wealth and worldly power and status, *not* primarily towards turning the heart to Christ in a humble way as a matter of principle.

I also believe like you that faith is a form of spiritual power. Priesthood is not necessary to heal or perform miracles or prophesy and so on. The gifts of the spirit are not based on priesthood but on the Holy Ghost. Children, women and men can all have angels speak to them. Angels speak by the power of the holy ghost so women and children can also do miracles and speak the words of angels and so on. This is another area where I’ve come to disagree with the LDS and believe their institutional policies and culture mistreat women doctrinally and subjugate them to their priesthood. In the LDS church women and also children are subordinate to the male only priesthood. I do *not* believe this is Christ’s way.

But one area where I believe we *may* see things differently is that I believe there is such a thing as priesthood power because of how D&C 121 reads and so on. I believe *only* some men can perform valid ordinances and women cannot do them. But I do *not* believe this makes women inferior in any way or that they need to subjugate themselves to men ideologically or doctrinally within the church solely because there are men in the same church, except in marriage where both sexes should seek to be one and serve each other (and so both are subjugated to each other in a way through marriage).

I believe faith is how one can gain priesthood power. Faith is what allows a man to gain power from Christ to enact valid ordinances is my theory right now, but that man still needs approval and *specific* power from Christ to do it, as the book of mormon shows or explains. Any person can perform a miracle though, or see a vision, or prophesy and so on as long as their faith is sufficient. But we can also see from the bible that *both* men and women can be deceived by false spirits and so on.

Would it change your mind if I had ancestors who received Priesthood in their patriarchal blessings from Hyrum Smith- in regards to women and the priesthood? It was secretive enough I had to prove my relation to them before they would send me the PB's.

[Telavian]

The Morley Farm event was Joseph introducing the sealing power — at least the power to seal up to eternal life — and concentrating it within the office of High Priest — an office within the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James, and John. This power, later on, also existed within other offices of the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood. For example, William Clayton noted that he acted in the office of an Elder when he performed a sealing in May 1843. And Patriarchs were well known to have sealed people up to eternal life in patriarchal blessings.

P/J/J gave the office of Elder not the Melchizedek Priesthood. The Morley Farm was when the office of High Priest which is the Melchizedek priesthood was restored.

[Wolfwoman]

Ok here is my take on things...I am trying to figure things out like you...having served a mission and being sealed to my wife in the temple.

I have stopped trusting the LDS church because of they are obviously going against the scriptures.

I guess I have held tighter to the new testament and what Christ himself taught.

Here are some verses that have really stood out to me about what Christ taught and established that seems off from my LDS upbringing. It also raises questions on power and authority and ordinances that were performed.

Mathew 8

24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

(Power of the miracles is brought in by faith in Jesus Christ. This is what caused Peter to walk on water. I don't think priesthood has anything to do with it.) (So far this is my current belief)


(When Christ first called his 12 disciples these were the rules they needed to live by...)


Mathew 10

1.And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

(I believe this power they had was really faith in Jesus Christ)

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

(True disciples don't collect money/tithes for the work. The gospel and miracles performed is always was free. John the Baptist didn't get money and neither did Christ.) ( John was teaching people in the wilderness and baptizing them. John wasn't feasting on rib eye steaks in a synagogue...He was eating locusts and honey out in the wilderness for heaven sakes!)

Mathew 23

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

(I also believe this negates every religion from qualifying to be Christ's on the basis that they all collect money from their followers to get gain)

Mathew 10

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

(Church leaders during Christ's time would would make up councils and scourge his disciples. Christ is warning his disciples when he first called them. Sound familiar in the LDS church?)

Mathew 12

9. And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:

(Christ enters the church or synagogue)

10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

(Christ preached in the synagogues or churches healed a bunch of people then left into the wilderness... and the people followed him...Can you imagine this happening in an LDS congregation? The only one left would be the bishopric in the stands...now imagine if there was a paid ministry...no wonder they wanted Christ dead)


(Christ didn't preach inclusivity and peacefulness like the LDS teach.)

Mathew 10

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mathew 21

12. And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

( He cast out the money changers selling doves in the temple. You cannot buy salvation in the temple)

14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

( sore displeased...because he cut off their money revenue)

(What authority did he really give...)

Mathew 16

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(For this statement to be true from Christ there was neither an apostasy nor a restoration) (christ teaching have survived through the years....Are we talking about a physical church or a spiritual church?)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(I believe these keys are not authoritative like the Pharisees and Sadducees preached but a spiritual state of being of one self)

(Further proof of this spiritual state of being was taught by Paul)

1 Corinthians 3

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

(Paul walked with Christ why did he say this..? He wasnt talking about a physical place that saves you...the kingdom of God is for those following Christ teachings in their heart and acting on the spiritual prompting of the holy ghost to love god and your fellow man with your whole heart. Miracles are performed with faith in Christ not priesthood authority.)

(If this wasn't the case why did Christ say this...?)

Mark 9

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

(This guy is performing miracles in Christ's name but neither does Christ, nor his disciples know of him...then John is questioning if he has "authority" to do this...Christ then teaches that miracles can't happen if they don't believe/faith in Christ)

(Christ further shows how important his spiritual teachings are to men)

Mathew 16

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

(He will reward a man according to his spiritual works and faith in him)

Luke 17

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

( They were counting how many steps they took on the sabath for observance...)

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(The kingdom of God resides within you)

John 18

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

(His kingdom is a spiritual one not a physical manifistation of a building)

Mathew 21

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

(Faith is the power not the priesthood)

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

(Isn't this what you are asking who has authority?)

24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

(One thing is clear miracles follow the believers of Christ...and by their fruits you will know them...if God called a prophet)

Thank you for taking the time to give a thorough response Refraction75. I *personally* agree with most of your points or the way you interpret the scriptures you quote.

I believe that ministers should not be paid for any preaching or ordinances they perform or teaching or management that is considered *within* the church. This is an area where I believe many churches including the lds falter and should probably repent. I believe the LDS use a “loophole” to justify paying their top leaders by saying they are paying them for their administrative and business work and not for doing ordinances etc. and since they use the interest from the tithing and not the tithing itself but this stipend allows them to work for the church full time and takes care of all their needs more or less, so they are literally being supported by the church and have no need to work or have careers any longer. I personally believe this is *very* wrong and one reason the holy ghost left. I also believe they set themselves up as a light and insert themselves into creeds that members must accept to be baptized and so on which is priestcraft according to the Book of Mormon. They also use church resources and money when they travel for church business and no longer go out without taking purse or scrip and so on which Christ said *not* to do.

I agree with you that there is an overemphasis on physical buildings and physical or outward acts, churches and groups rather than on the inward. Like Moroni says “all churches have become polluted and there are very few *humble* followers of Christ” since it is always *physical* things that are the focus of the churches and these physical things are geared towards accumulating money or displaying wealth and worldly power and status, *not* primarily towards turning the heart to Christ in a humble way as a matter of principle.

I also believe like you that faith is a form of spiritual power. Priesthood is not necessary to heal or perform miracles or prophesy and so on. The gifts of the spirit are not based on priesthood but on the Holy Ghost. Children, women and men can all have angels speak to them. Angels speak by the power of the holy ghost so women and children can also do miracles and speak the words of angels and so on. This is another area where I’ve come to disagree with the LDS and believe their institutional policies and culture mistreat women doctrinally and subjugate them to their priesthood. In the LDS church women and also children are subordinate to the male only priesthood. I do *not* believe this is Christ’s way.

But one area where I believe we *may* see things differently is that I believe there is such a thing as priesthood power because of how D&C 121 reads and so on. I believe *only* some men can perform valid ordinances and women cannot do them. But I do *not* believe this makes women inferior in any way or that they need to subjugate themselves to men ideologically or doctrinally within the church solely because there are men in the same church, except in marriage where both sexes should seek to be one and serve each other (and so both are subjugated to each other in a way through marriage).

I believe faith is how one can gain priesthood power. Faith is what allows a man to gain power from Christ to enact valid ordinances is my theory right now, but that man still needs approval and *specific* power from Christ to do it, as the book of mormon shows or explains. Any person can perform a miracle though, or see a vision, or prophesy and so on as long as their faith is sufficient. But we can also see from the bible that *both* men and women can be deceived by false spirits and so on.

Would it change your mind if I had ancestors who received Priesthood in their patriarchal blessings from Hyrum Smith- in regards to women and the priesthood? It was secretive enough I had to prove my relation to them before they would send me the PB's.

That sounds intriguing!

[fractal_light_harvest]

Ok here is my take on things...I am trying to figure things out like you...having served a mission and being sealed to my wife in the temple.

I have stopped trusting the LDS church because of they are obviously going against the scriptures.

I guess I have held tighter to the new testament and what Christ himself taught.

Here are some verses that have really stood out to me about what Christ taught and established that seems off from my LDS upbringing. It also raises questions on power and authority and ordinances that were performed.

Mathew 8

24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

(Power of the miracles is brought in by faith in Jesus Christ. This is what caused Peter to walk on water. I don't think priesthood has anything to do with it.) (So far this is my current belief)


(When Christ first called his 12 disciples these were the rules they needed to live by...)


Mathew 10

1.And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

(I believe this power they had was really faith in Jesus Christ)

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

(True disciples don't collect money/tithes for the work. The gospel and miracles performed is always was free. John the Baptist didn't get money and neither did Christ.) ( John was teaching people in the wilderness and baptizing them. John wasn't feasting on rib eye steaks in a synagogue...He was eating locusts and honey out in the wilderness for heaven sakes!)

Mathew 23

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

(I also believe this negates every religion from qualifying to be Christ's on the basis that they all collect money from their followers to get gain)

Mathew 10

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

(Church leaders during Christ's time would would make up councils and scourge his disciples. Christ is warning his disciples when he first called them. Sound familiar in the LDS church?)

Mathew 12

9. And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:

(Christ enters the church or synagogue)

10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

(Christ preached in the synagogues or churches healed a bunch of people then left into the wilderness... and the people followed him...Can you imagine this happening in an LDS congregation? The only one left would be the bishopric in the stands...now imagine if there was a paid ministry...no wonder they wanted Christ dead)


(Christ didn't preach inclusivity and peacefulness like the LDS teach.)

Mathew 10

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mathew 21

12. And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

( He cast out the money changers selling doves in the temple. You cannot buy salvation in the temple)

14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

( sore displeased...because he cut off their money revenue)

(What authority did he really give...)

Mathew 16

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(For this statement to be true from Christ there was neither an apostasy nor a restoration) (christ teaching have survived through the years....Are we talking about a physical church or a spiritual church?)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(I believe these keys are not authoritative like the Pharisees and Sadducees preached but a spiritual state of being of one self)

(Further proof of this spiritual state of being was taught by Paul)

1 Corinthians 3

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

(Paul walked with Christ why did he say this..? He wasnt talking about a physical place that saves you...the kingdom of God is for those following Christ teachings in their heart and acting on the spiritual prompting of the holy ghost to love god and your fellow man with your whole heart. Miracles are performed with faith in Christ not priesthood authority.)

(If this wasn't the case why did Christ say this...?)

Mark 9

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

(This guy is performing miracles in Christ's name but neither does Christ, nor his disciples know of him...then John is questioning if he has "authority" to do this...Christ then teaches that miracles can't happen if they don't believe/faith in Christ)

(Christ further shows how important his spiritual teachings are to men)

Mathew 16

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

(He will reward a man according to his spiritual works and faith in him)

Luke 17

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

( They were counting how many steps they took on the sabath for observance...)

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(The kingdom of God resides within you)

John 18

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

(His kingdom is a spiritual one not a physical manifistation of a building)

Mathew 21

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

(Faith is the power not the priesthood)

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

(Isn't this what you are asking who has authority?)

24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

(One thing is clear miracles follow the believers of Christ...and by their fruits you will know them...if God called a prophet)

Thank you for taking the time to give a thorough response Refraction75. I *personally* agree with most of your points or the way you interpret the scriptures you quote.

I believe that ministers should not be paid for any preaching or ordinances they perform or teaching or management that is considered *within* the church. This is an area where I believe many churches including the lds falter and should probably repent. I believe the LDS use a “loophole” to justify paying their top leaders by saying they are paying them for their administrative and business work and not for doing ordinances etc. and since they use the interest from the tithing and not the tithing itself but this stipend allows them to work for the church full time and takes care of all their needs more or less, so they are literally being supported by the church and have no need to work or have careers any longer. I personally believe this is *very* wrong and one reason the holy ghost left. I also believe they set themselves up as a light and insert themselves into creeds that members must accept to be baptized and so on which is priestcraft according to the Book of Mormon. They also use church resources and money when they travel for church business and no longer go out without taking purse or scrip and so on which Christ said *not* to do.

I agree with you that there is an overemphasis on physical buildings and physical or outward acts, churches and groups rather than on the inward. Like Moroni says “all churches have become polluted and there are very few *humble* followers of Christ” since it is always *physical* things that are the focus of the churches and these physical things are geared towards accumulating money or displaying wealth and worldly power and status, *not* primarily towards turning the heart to Christ in a humble way as a matter of principle.

I also believe like you that faith is a form of spiritual power. Priesthood is not necessary to heal or perform miracles or prophesy and so on. The gifts of the spirit are not based on priesthood but on the Holy Ghost. Children, women and men can all have angels speak to them. Angels speak by the power of the holy ghost so women and children can also do miracles and speak the words of angels and so on. This is another area where I’ve come to disagree with the LDS and believe their institutional policies and culture mistreat women doctrinally and subjugate them to their priesthood. In the LDS church women and also children are subordinate to the male only priesthood. I do *not* believe this is Christ’s way.

But one area where I believe we *may* see things differently is that I believe there is such a thing as priesthood power because of how D&C 121 reads and so on. I believe *only* some men can perform valid ordinances and women cannot do them. But I do *not* believe this makes women inferior in any way or that they need to subjugate themselves to men ideologically or doctrinally within the church solely because there are men in the same church, except in marriage where both sexes should seek to be one and serve each other (and so both are subjugated to each other in a way through marriage).

I believe faith is how one can gain priesthood power. Faith is what allows a man to gain power from Christ to enact valid ordinances is my theory right now, but that man still needs approval and *specific* power from Christ to do it, as the book of mormon shows or explains. Any person can perform a miracle though, or see a vision, or prophesy and so on as long as their faith is sufficient. But we can also see from the bible that *both* men and women can be deceived by false spirits and so on.

Would it change your mind if I had ancestors who received Priesthood in their patriarchal blessings from Hyrum Smith- in regards to women and the priesthood? It was secretive enough I had to prove my relation to them before they would send me the PB's.

It could possibly I’m not sure. I think it would depend for me on the exact language in the blessing, the historical and social context it was given in, if it clearly contradicted scripture or not and so on.

I was not very clear before but when I say ordinances I generally only mean baptism and the sacrament. I do *not* mean anything involved with the lds temple and probably not anything involving ordination to priesthood based offices like in the lds religion though it could possibly include these in a way idk. I mean these two ordinances since these are the *main* ordinances that are dealt with in bible and Book of mormon that I have noticed.

My main line of thinking is that power to baptize and bless the sacrament is only given to men as far as I can see so I presume only men can do these two public ordinances. Outside of this I am agnostic one way or the other.

[ransomme]

The Morley Farm event was Joseph introducing the sealing power — at least the power to seal up to eternal life — and concentrating it within the office of High Priest — an office within the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James, and John. This power, later on, also existed within other offices of the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood. For example, William Clayton noted that he acted in the office of an Elder when he performed a sealing in May 1843. And Patriarchs were well known to have sealed people up to eternal life in patriarchal blessings.

P/J/J gave the office of Elder not the Melchizedek Priesthood. The Morley Farm was when the office of High Priest which is the Melchizedek priesthood was restored.

How? What are the details?

What was the date of that sealing? and who were sealed?

[ransomme]

Ok here is my take on things...I am trying to figure things out like you...having served a mission and being sealed to my wife in the temple.

I have stopped trusting the LDS church because of they are obviously going against the scriptures.

I guess I have held tighter to the new testament and what Christ himself taught.

Here are some verses that have really stood out to me about what Christ taught and established that seems off from my LDS upbringing. It also raises questions on power and authority and ordinances that were performed.

Mathew 8

24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

(Power of the miracles is brought in by faith in Jesus Christ. This is what caused Peter to walk on water. I don't think priesthood has anything to do with it.) (So far this is my current belief)


(When Christ first called his 12 disciples these were the rules they needed to live by...)


Mathew 10

1.And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

(I believe this power they had was really faith in Jesus Christ)

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

(True disciples don't collect money/tithes for the work. The gospel and miracles performed is always was free. John the Baptist didn't get money and neither did Christ.) ( John was teaching people in the wilderness and baptizing them. John wasn't feasting on rib eye steaks in a synagogue...He was eating locusts and honey out in the wilderness for heaven sakes!)

Mathew 23

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

(I also believe this negates every religion from qualifying to be Christ's on the basis that they all collect money from their followers to get gain)

Mathew 10

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

(Church leaders during Christ's time would would make up councils and scourge his disciples. Christ is warning his disciples when he first called them. Sound familiar in the LDS church?)

Mathew 12

9. And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:

(Christ enters the church or synagogue)

10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

(Christ preached in the synagogues or churches healed a bunch of people then left into the wilderness... and the people followed him...Can you imagine this happening in an LDS congregation? The only one left would be the bishopric in the stands...now imagine if there was a paid ministry...no wonder they wanted Christ dead)


(Christ didn't preach inclusivity and peacefulness like the LDS teach.)

Mathew 10

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mathew 21

12. And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

( He cast out the money changers selling doves in the temple. You cannot buy salvation in the temple)

14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

( sore displeased...because he cut off their money revenue)

(What authority did he really give...)

Mathew 16

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(For this statement to be true from Christ there was neither an apostasy nor a restoration) (christ teaching have survived through the years....Are we talking about a physical church or a spiritual church?)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(I believe these keys are not authoritative like the Pharisees and Sadducees preached but a spiritual state of being of one self)

(Further proof of this spiritual state of being was taught by Paul)

1 Corinthians 3

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

(Paul walked with Christ why did he say this..? He wasnt talking about a physical place that saves you...the kingdom of God is for those following Christ teachings in their heart and acting on the spiritual prompting of the holy ghost to love god and your fellow man with your whole heart. Miracles are performed with faith in Christ not priesthood authority.)

(If this wasn't the case why did Christ say this...?)

Mark 9

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

(This guy is performing miracles in Christ's name but neither does Christ, nor his disciples know of him...then John is questioning if he has "authority" to do this...Christ then teaches that miracles can't happen if they don't believe/faith in Christ)

(Christ further shows how important his spiritual teachings are to men)

Mathew 16

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

(He will reward a man according to his spiritual works and faith in him)

Luke 17

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

( They were counting how many steps they took on the sabath for observance...)

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(The kingdom of God resides within you)

John 18

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

(His kingdom is a spiritual one not a physical manifistation of a building)

Mathew 21

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

(Faith is the power not the priesthood)

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

(Isn't this what you are asking who has authority?)

24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

(One thing is clear miracles follow the believers of Christ...and by their fruits you will know them...if God called a prophet)

Thank you for taking the time to give a thorough response Refraction75. I *personally* agree with most of your points or the way you interpret the scriptures you quote.

I believe that ministers should not be paid for any preaching or ordinances they perform or teaching or management that is considered *within* the church. This is an area where I believe many churches including the lds falter and should probably repent. I believe the LDS use a “loophole” to justify paying their top leaders by saying they are paying them for their administrative and business work and not for doing ordinances etc. and since they use the interest from the tithing and not the tithing itself but this stipend allows them to work for the church full time and takes care of all their needs more or less, so they are literally being supported by the church and have no need to work or have careers any longer. I personally believe this is *very* wrong and one reason the holy ghost left. I also believe they set themselves up as a light and insert themselves into creeds that members must accept to be baptized and so on which is priestcraft according to the Book of Mormon. They also use church resources and money when they travel for church business and no longer go out without taking purse or scrip and so on which Christ said *not* to do.

I agree with you that there is an overemphasis on physical buildings and physical or outward acts, churches and groups rather than on the inward. Like Moroni says “all churches have become polluted and there are very few *humble* followers of Christ” since it is always *physical* things that are the focus of the churches and these physical things are geared towards accumulating money or displaying wealth and worldly power and status, *not* primarily towards turning the heart to Christ in a humble way as a matter of principle.

I also believe like you that faith is a form of spiritual power. Priesthood is not necessary to heal or perform miracles or prophesy and so on. The gifts of the spirit are not based on priesthood but on the Holy Ghost. Children, women and men can all have angels speak to them. Angels speak by the power of the holy ghost so women and children can also do miracles and speak the words of angels and so on. This is another area where I’ve come to disagree with the LDS and believe their institutional policies and culture mistreat women doctrinally and subjugate them to their priesthood. In the LDS church women and also children are subordinate to the male only priesthood. I do *not* believe this is Christ’s way.

But one area where I believe we *may* see things differently is that I believe there is such a thing as priesthood power because of how D&C 121 reads and so on. I believe *only* some men can perform valid ordinances and women cannot do them. But I do *not* believe this makes women inferior in any way or that they need to subjugate themselves to men ideologically or doctrinally within the church solely because there are men in the same church, except in marriage where both sexes should seek to be one and serve each other (and so both are subjugated to each other in a way through marriage).

I believe faith is how one can gain priesthood power. Faith is what allows a man to gain power from Christ to enact valid ordinances is my theory right now, but that man still needs approval and *specific* power from Christ to do it, as the book of mormon shows or explains. Any person can perform a miracle though, or see a vision, or prophesy and so on as long as their faith is sufficient. But we can also see from the bible that *both* men and women can be deceived by false spirits and so on.

Would it change your mind if I had ancestors who received Priesthood in their patriarchal blessings from Hyrum Smith- in regards to women and the priesthood? It was secretive enough I had to prove my relation to them before they would send me the PB's.

Could you share the line? How did Hyrum word it?

[fractal_light_harvest]

The Morley Farm event was Joseph introducing the sealing power — at least the power to seal up to eternal life — and concentrating it within the office of High Priest — an office within the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James, and John. This power, later on, also existed within other offices of the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood. For example, William Clayton noted that he acted in the office of an Elder when he performed a sealing in May 1843. And Patriarchs were well known to have sealed people up to eternal life in patriarchal blessings.

P/J/J gave the office of Elder not the Melchizedek Priesthood. The Morley Farm was when the office of High Priest which is the Melchizedek priesthood was restored.

Personally I am leaning more towards a view like this currently but I am still looking into it myself. I do believe there are possibly multiple churches and priesthood levels but they all connect back to the same god I believe.

[Telavian]

How? What are the details?

What was the date of that sealing? and who were sealed?

I wrote about the morley farm conference here: https://uncorrelatedmormonism.com/resto ... riesthood/
The conference was over 2 or 3 days and started on Jun 3rd, 1831.

“not three days should pass away, before some should see their Savior face to face” - Joseph Smith
"the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood was manifested and conferred for the first time upon several of the Elders." - Joseph Smith
"such of the elders as were considered worthy, should be ordained to the high priesthood." - John Whitmer
"for the first time I saw the Melchisedec priesthood introduced into the church of Jesus Christ as anciently" - Lyman Wight
"The Melchizedek priesthood was then for the first time introduced, and conferred on several of the elders." - John Corrill
"This was the first occasion in which this priesthood had been revealed and conferred upon the Elders in this dispensation, although the office of an Elder is the same in a certain degree, but not in the fulness." - Parley P. Pratt

[fractal_light_harvest]

How? What are the details?

What was the date of that sealing? and who were sealed?

I wrote about the morley farm conference here: https://uncorrelatedmormonism.com/resto ... riesthood/
The conference was over 2 or 3 days and started on Jun 3rd, 1831.

“not three days should pass away, before some should see their Savior face to face” - Joseph Smith
"the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood was manifested and conferred for the first time upon several of the Elders." - Joseph Smith
"such of the elders as were considered worthy, should be ordained to the high priesthood." - John Whitmer
"for the first time I saw the Melchisedec priesthood introduced into the church of Jesus Christ as anciently" - Lyman Wight
"The Melchizedek priesthood was then for the first time introduced, and conferred on several of the elders." - John Corrill
"This was the first occasion in which this priesthood had been revealed and conferred upon the Elders in this dispensation, although the office of an Elder is the same in a certain degree, but not in the fulness." - Parley P. Pratt

The first person I heard point out the Morley farm experience *personally* was Snuffer. I’m not sure if he used the work of others to talk about it? Or if another writer spoke of this first?

Personally I never heard it mentioned in my time in the lds church.

[ransomme]

How? What are the details?

What was the date of that sealing? and who were sealed?

I wrote about the morley farm conference here: https://uncorrelatedmormonism.com/resto ... riesthood/
The conference was over 2 or 3 days and started on Jun 3rd, 1831.

“not three days should pass away, before some should see their Savior face to face” - Joseph Smith
"the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood was manifested and conferred for the first time upon several of the Elders." - Joseph Smith
"such of the elders as were considered worthy, should be ordained to the high priesthood." - John Whitmer
"for the first time I saw the Melchisedec priesthood introduced into the church of Jesus Christ as anciently" - Lyman Wight
"The Melchizedek priesthood was then for the first time introduced, and conferred on several of the elders." - John Corrill
"This was the first occasion in which this priesthood had been revealed and conferred upon the Elders in this dispensation, although the office of an Elder is the same in a certain degree, but not in the fulness." - Parley P. Pratt

How could there have been a sealing in 1831? Elijah in the Kirtland temple was recorded on April 3, 1836.

Either way, the power to seal per the Lord was lost or taken by January 19, 1841, and was never restored after that:
D&C 124
28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

[Telavian]

How could there have been a sealing in 1831? Elijah in the Kirtland temple was recorded on April 3, 1836.

Either way, the power to seal per the Lord was lost or taken by January 19, 1841, and was never restored after that:
D&C 124
28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

You are mixing things up and assuming Elijah gave the sealing power.
The "sealing" power has had several iterations through the church and the meaning of the word is different every time. Sealing was an act of God, then we changed it to an arbitrary act of man.

There is a reason that Joseph never talked about the visit of Elijah to the Kirtland temple.

[Luke]

The Morley Farm event was Joseph introducing the sealing power — at least the power to seal up to eternal life — and concentrating it within the office of High Priest — an office within the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James, and John. This power, later on, also existed within other offices of the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood. For example, William Clayton noted that he acted in the office of an Elder when he performed a sealing in May 1843. And Patriarchs were well known to have sealed people up to eternal life in patriarchal blessings.

P/J/J gave the office of Elder not the Melchizedek Priesthood. The Morley Farm was when the office of High Priest which is the Melchizedek priesthood was restored.

I know what you’re saying, but it’s bit more nuanced than that.

Yes, the power to seal up to eternal life is the highest power within the Melchizedek Priesthood, and that was first restored to the Saints in June 1831 at the Morley Farm, within the office of High Priest. But as time went on, the offices of Elder, Patriarch, Seventy, Twelve Apostle were all given that power as part of their particular office.

[ransomme]

How could there have been a sealing in 1831? Elijah in the Kirtland temple was recorded on April 3, 1836.

Either way, the power to seal per the Lord was lost or taken by January 19, 1841, and was never restored after that:
D&C 124
28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

You are mixing things up and assuming Elijah gave the sealing power.
The "sealing" power has had several iterations through the church and the meaning of the word is different every time. Sealing was an act of God, then we changed it to an arbitrary act of man.

There is a reason that Joseph never talked about the visit of Elijah to the Kirtland temple.

Not mixing, I was just using the Church's definition (like in Christofferson's speech) I personally believe that the Church's view fails to understand the sealing power and what the scriptures say about it.

I just didn't know where you were coming from, so thanks.

[ransomme]

The Morley Farm event was Joseph introducing the sealing power — at least the power to seal up to eternal life — and concentrating it within the office of High Priest — an office within the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James, and John. This power, later on, also existed within other offices of the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood. For example, William Clayton noted that he acted in the office of an Elder when he performed a sealing in May 1843. And Patriarchs were well known to have sealed people up to eternal life in patriarchal blessings.

P/J/J gave the office of Elder not the Melchizedek Priesthood. The Morley Farm was when the office of High Priest which is the Melchizedek priesthood was restored.

I know what you’re saying, but it’s bit more nuanced than that.

Yes, the power to seal up to eternal life is the highest power within the Melchizedek Priesthood, and that was first restored to the Saints in June 1831 at the Morley Farm, within the office of High Priest. But as time went on, the offices of Elder, Patriarch, Seventy, Twelve Apostle were all given that power as part of their particular office.

So per section 124:28 what was lost or taken (and never recorded to be given or restored)?

28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

[Telavian]

I know what you’re saying, but it’s bit more nuanced than that.

Yes, the power to seal up to eternal life is the highest power within the Melchizedek Priesthood, and that was first restored to the Saints in June 1831 at the Morley Farm, within the office of High Priest. But as time went on, the offices of Elder, Patriarch, Seventy, Twelve Apostle were all given that power as part of their particular office.

Why would God do that? You are saying that the office of Elder, which is not part of the Melchizedek priesthood, was given the higher authority anyways?
Joseph mentioned 3 priesthoods: Aaronic, Patriarchal, and Melchizedek. We are under the Patriarchal currently.

To me it doesn't make sense to have any distinction if the distinction can just be arbitrarily crossed. Could God extend the sealing power to the Aaronic priesthood?

[Luke]

P/J/J gave the office of Elder not the Melchizedek Priesthood. The Morley Farm was when the office of High Priest which is the Melchizedek priesthood was restored.

I know what you’re saying, but it’s bit more nuanced than that.

Yes, the power to seal up to eternal life is the highest power within the Melchizedek Priesthood, and that was first restored to the Saints in June 1831 at the Morley Farm, within the office of High Priest. But as time went on, the offices of Elder, Patriarch, Seventy, Twelve Apostle were all given that power as part of their particular office.

So per section 124:28 what was lost or taken (and never recorded to be given or restored)?

28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

Obviously you know I used to agree with your take. Now I don’t because I can’t find anything in the historical record to support it, from Joseph Smith or anyone else. Joseph et al. regarded the authority that was restored through the Temple ordinances to be something completely new as far as they were concerned. Thus God was referring to something which had been lost to mankind in the past.

Lower Melchizedek Priesthood (restored 1829-1831) — power to seal up to ETERNAL LIFE

Higher Melchizedek Priesthood — i.e. the Patriarchal Priesthood or Fullness of the Melchizedek Priesthood (restored 1842-1843) — power to seal up to ETERNAL LIVES

[Luke]

I know what you’re saying, but it’s bit more nuanced than that.

Yes, the power to seal up to eternal life is the highest power within the Melchizedek Priesthood, and that was first restored to the Saints in June 1831 at the Morley Farm, within the office of High Priest. But as time went on, the offices of Elder, Patriarch, Seventy, Twelve Apostle were all given that power as part of their particular office.

Why would God do that? You are saying that the office of Elder, which is not part of the Melchizedek priesthood, was given the higher authority anyways?
Joseph mentioned 3 priesthoods: Aaronic, Patriarchal, and Melchizedek. We are under the Patriarchal currently.

To me it doesn't make sense to have any distinction if the distinction can just be arbitrarily crossed. Could God extend the sealing power to the Aaronic priesthood?

In my view, your understanding is incorrect. I used to understand it the same way too, which is why I say that in earnest and not condescendingly. I understand the sources which lead one to believe that way — but I don’t agree. And I’ll explain why when I get a minute.

Have you read my “Succession - Part 1” post? The Patriarchal Priesthood is clearly the highest order of Priesthood (that can be given from man to man — that is to say nothing of the Priesthood that comes from God only).

[ransomme]

I know what you’re saying, but it’s bit more nuanced than that.

Yes, the power to seal up to eternal life is the highest power within the Melchizedek Priesthood, and that was first restored to the Saints in June 1831 at the Morley Farm, within the office of High Priest. But as time went on, the offices of Elder, Patriarch, Seventy, Twelve Apostle were all given that power as part of their particular office.

So per section 124:28 what was lost or taken (and never recorded to be given or restored)?

28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

Obviously you know I used to agree with your take. Now I don’t because I can’t find anything in the historical record to support it, from Joseph Smith or anyone else. Joseph et al. regarded the authority that was restored through the Temple ordinances to be something completely new as far as they were concerned. Thus God was referring to something which had been lost to mankind in the past.

Lower Melchizedek Priesthood (restored 1829-1831) — power to seal up to ETERNAL LIFE

Higher Melchizedek Priesthood — i.e. the Patriarchal Priesthood or Fullness of the Melchizedek Priesthood (restored 1842-1843) — power to seal up to ETERNAL LIVES

Thanks just wanted to know your view.

[Telavian]

In my view, your understanding is incorrect. I used to understand it the same way too, which is why I say that in earnest and not condescendingly. I understand the sources which lead one to believe that way — but I don’t agree. And I’ll explain why when I get a minute.

Have you read my “Succession - Part 1” post? The Patriarchal Priesthood is clearly the highest order of Priesthood (that can be given from man to man — that is to say nothing of the Priesthood that comes from God only).

I can read it. I guess a person's view depends on their thoughts about the Nauvoo period.
I can't understand why God would give them higher and holier things in Nauvoo when they clearly rejected the lesser things in Kirtland.