Does the LDS church have valid ordinances?

[Reluctant Watchman]

Honestly,I dont mind attending the temple. Its calm and relaxing...so is fishing. The ordinances seem soooooo silly and ridiculous though. Think about it from an outsiders perspective. If you think that somehow God requires these things to enter heaven then I dont know what to tell you.

I like fishing.

[fractal_light_harvest]

Like I said, people who were legitimately ordained prior to 2014 would still have valid priesthood authority if they didn’t do something to have it taken away.
But they need to follow Christ’s instructions and do the ordinances the way he said to do them, not innovate on things or think it’s okay to innovate because the institution said they can innovate.
He also recommends renewing or refreshing it prior to performing ordinances like Alma does before he starts baptizing at the waters of Mormon.

Ahh! I didn’t realize this distinction even though you said it earlier. Thank you for pointing it out. So as long as they don’t innovate or change things they shouldn’t then pre-2014 LDS members could have priesthood.
That then makes me question if they need approval from the church leadership to do ordinances or not since the uppermost leadership does *not* have priesthood. But that may be getting too technical tbh.
So then based on what you said I believe that that group sees it as they have priesthood power but also some LDS members have it too. Do they say if members who were part of a break off group like a fundamentalist group have it too? (Again I am being very technical but i la a technical/numbers person so okay if it’s too much to answer on this thread)

My opinion is that they don’t need approval from leadership to perform ordinances, especially the only ordinances they are probably authorized to do, which is to bless and administer the sacrament and to baptize (Aaronic priesthood ordinances).

I had the same question about whether the RLDS or any other break off sects would have valid priesthood. Denver Snuffer came from the LDS church, so he didn’t really address the other sects. I could be wrong, but I think the consensus was that if they could trace their priesthood lineage back to Joseph Smith/Oliver Cowdery/Jesus Christ then the group would recognize their ordination. All prior to 2014, I think.

Ok it’s making sense to me I believe. I looked at some scriptures and I believe this is *one* of several possibilities. I am still unclear about one mighty and strong or how the church would be set in order if it is out of order right now (which I believe it is), so I am currently favoring this theory but I will need to study, pray, so on. And validate if snuffer truly did wrest the keys or anything like that. Thank you for your answers!

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I'll let Isaiah answer. This is the Gileadi translation with explanation.

24:4–6 The earth shall pine away, the world miserably perish; the elite of the earth shall be made wretched. The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants: they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinances, set at nought the ancient covenant. The curse devours the earth, for those who dwell on it have incurred guilt; because of it the population of the earth shall be diminished and little of mankind remain.

The destruction of the “earth” and the “world” parallels that of Greater Babylon, which also consists of the “earth” and the “world” (Isaiah 13:5, 9, 11, 13; 14:16–17, 21, 26; 16:4; 23:9). The decimation of “mankind” continues that theme (Isaiah 13:12; 33:8). Causing these curses is the wickedness of Jehovah’s people, who have altered his “ordinances” or “ritual” (hoq) and perverted his “laws” or “doctrine” (torot), thereby violating Jehovah’s covenant and rendering it void. Jehovah’s servant, who personifies Jehovah’s covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8), they likewise set at nought (Isaiah 49:7; 50:5–11; 52:14).

That’s interesting. This already happened then? Does Gilaedi’s group say they have power/authority?

No. That will be given to the David servant when he appears.

[Luke]

Honestly,I dont mind attending the temple. Its calm and relaxing...so is fishing. The ordinances seem soooooo silly and ridiculous though. Think about it from an outsiders perspective. If you think that somehow God requires these things to enter heaven then I dont know what to tell you.

I sometimes feel this way too. I’m not sure if it’s the ordinances themselves or how members interpret/carry them out that *sometimes* seems silly to me.

One of my main purposes for asking this question is from my study of the new testament and book of mormon. Christ tells his disciples to go and preach/baptize all creatures

Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. mark 16

And he tells nicodemus he must be born again (baptized) and nephi says baptism is how you enter the gate. The gate to me means how to enter the path back to heaven. Do you have alternate interpretations?

There is a difference between salvation and exaltation — and there are two different Churches to administer such — the Church of Christ administers salvation, and the Church of the Firstborn administers exaltation.

[Luke]

Honestly,I dont mind attending the temple. Its calm and relaxing...so is fishing. The ordinances seem soooooo silly and ridiculous though. Think about it from an outsiders perspective. If you think that somehow God requires these things to enter heaven then I dont know what to tell you.

Doesn’t really matter how silly they seem — God restored them via Joseph Smith and they should be treated with the utmost respect and reverence.

[Aussie]

There was No Plural Marriage only spiritual wifery brought in by Brigham Young, Not God!!!


https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/cha ... y-denials/

[Aussie]

“Plural marriage will end when the Church had gone to the Devil or the Priesthood taken from this people — then God would give it to another people.” — Heber C. Kimball (Heber C. Kimball sermon, 1 February 1849, in D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power page 747)

There was No Plural Marriage on Spiritual Wifery that was brought in by Brigham Young, Not God!!

https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/cha ... y-denials/

[ransomme]

Honestly,I dont mind attending the temple. Its calm and relaxing...so is fishing. The ordinances seem soooooo silly and ridiculous though. Think about it from an outsiders perspective. If you think that somehow God requires these things to enter heaven then I dont know what to tell you.

Doesn’t really matter how silly they seem — God restored them via Joseph Smith and they should be treated with the utmost respect and reverence.

What was revealed? And when and where?

Because per the Lord it was meant to be revealed and had only in His completed house.

Not a single aspect of the origin of the "endowment" ceremony fits with the Lord's revealed word on the matter.

[Erastothenes]

Honestly,I dont mind attending the temple. Its calm and relaxing...so is fishing. The ordinances seem soooooo silly and ridiculous though. Think about it from an outsiders perspective. If you think that somehow God requires these things to enter heaven then I dont know what to tell you.

Doesn’t really matter how silly they seem — God restored them via Joseph Smith and they should be treated with the utmost respect and reverence.

I respect it like I would respect anyones religious beliefs. If its sacred to them then thats cool with me. But to say that God requires you to play dress up and give each other high fives to be exalted? Not sure thats a real thing. If it personally brings you closer to our creator then thats definitely a good thing. But lets not make it out to be anything more than it really is. If it is an actual ceremony revaled from God then how come it has been shortened, changed and cheapened to the point where its nothing more than a silly powerpoint presentation?

[Luke]

Honestly,I dont mind attending the temple. Its calm and relaxing...so is fishing. The ordinances seem soooooo silly and ridiculous though. Think about it from an outsiders perspective. If you think that somehow God requires these things to enter heaven then I dont know what to tell you.

Doesn’t really matter how silly they seem — God restored them via Joseph Smith and they should be treated with the utmost respect and reverence.

I respect it like I would respect anyones religious beliefs. If its sacred to them then thats cool with me. But to say that God requires you to play dress up and give each other high fives to be exalted? Not sure thats a real thing. If it personally brings you closer to our creator then thats definitely a good thing. But lets not make it out to be anything more than it really is. If it is an actual ceremony revaled from God then how come it has been shortened, changed and cheapened to the point where its nothing more than a silly powerpoint presentation?

Well that’s the point that people like me make — that it was an ordinance that should not have been changed — one of the evidences that the LDS Church lost the authority, and that others are in possession of the authority from God.

[fractal_light_harvest]

I'll let Isaiah answer. This is the Gileadi translation with explanation.

24:4–6 The earth shall pine away, the world miserably perish; the elite of the earth shall be made wretched. The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants: they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinances, set at nought the ancient covenant. The curse devours the earth, for those who dwell on it have incurred guilt; because of it the population of the earth shall be diminished and little of mankind remain.

The destruction of the “earth” and the “world” parallels that of Greater Babylon, which also consists of the “earth” and the “world” (Isaiah 13:5, 9, 11, 13; 14:16–17, 21, 26; 16:4; 23:9). The decimation of “mankind” continues that theme (Isaiah 13:12; 33:8). Causing these curses is the wickedness of Jehovah’s people, who have altered his “ordinances” or “ritual” (hoq) and perverted his “laws” or “doctrine” (torot), thereby violating Jehovah’s covenant and rendering it void. Jehovah’s servant, who personifies Jehovah’s covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8), they likewise set at nought (Isaiah 49:7; 50:5–11; 52:14).

That’s interesting. This already happened then? Does Gilaedi’s group say they have power/authority?

No. That will be given to the David servant when he appears.

So members of gileadi’s group are primarily waiting on the Davidic servant to appear on the scene?

[fractal_light_harvest]

Honestly,I dont mind attending the temple. Its calm and relaxing...so is fishing. The ordinances seem soooooo silly and ridiculous though. Think about it from an outsiders perspective. If you think that somehow God requires these things to enter heaven then I dont know what to tell you.

I sometimes feel this way too. I’m not sure if it’s the ordinances themselves or how members interpret/carry them out that *sometimes* seems silly to me.

One of my main purposes for asking this question is from my study of the new testament and book of mormon. Christ tells his disciples to go and preach/baptize all creatures

Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. mark 16

And he tells nicodemus he must be born again (baptized) and nephi says baptism is how you enter the gate. The gate to me means how to enter the path back to heaven. Do you have alternate interpretations?

There is a difference between salvation and exaltation — and there are two different Churches to administer such — the Church of Christ administers salvation, and the Church of the Firstborn administers exaltation.

Okay I could see this being a possibility. I am definitely open to viewing things this way. I guess the best support for this is how you break down the priesthood levels and what nephi says about the church of the firstborn?

[fractal_light_harvest]

Honestly,I dont mind attending the temple. Its calm and relaxing...so is fishing. The ordinances seem soooooo silly and ridiculous though. Think about it from an outsiders perspective. If you think that somehow God requires these things to enter heaven then I dont know what to tell you.

Doesn’t really matter how silly they seem — God restored them via Joseph Smith and they should be treated with the utmost respect and reverence.

I respect it like I would respect anyones religious beliefs. If its sacred to them then thats cool with me. But to say that God requires you to play dress up and give each other high fives to be exalted? Not sure thats a real thing. If it personally brings you closer to our creator then thats definitely a good thing. But lets not make it out to be anything more than it really is. If it is an actual ceremony revaled from God then how come it has been shortened, changed and cheapened to the point where its nothing more than a silly powerpoint presentation?

So is it the temple ceremony that you feel is silly primarily? I could see where you’re coming from on that point. But baptism and the sacrament doesn’t seem silly to me personally. I enjoy the symbolism

[fractal_light_harvest]

As an update since again I am a very numbers focused person the poll currently is as follows

• Percentage of people who believe the church has some type of power/authority to perform ordinances — 39%

• Percentage of people who do *not* believe the church currently has power/authority — 44%

(But of this 44%, 9% believe the church will regain it in the future)

• Percentage of people who believe the church has authority but lost power — 5%

• People who don’t know — 11%

• People who don’t care or think it’s not important — 2%

So right now more people believe the church does *not* have valid ordinances than does. But if you add the 9% that believe the church will regain it later on then more people believe the church does or will have valid ordinances than not on this forum. However only 55 people voted so far so this is likely not representative of the entire forum.

EDIT: And 10% of those who think the LDS have valid authority *also* think other churches or groups do too.

[Luke]

I sometimes feel this way too. I’m not sure if it’s the ordinances themselves or how members interpret/carry them out that *sometimes* seems silly to me.

One of my main purposes for asking this question is from my study of the new testament and book of mormon. Christ tells his disciples to go and preach/baptize all creatures

Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. mark 16

And he tells nicodemus he must be born again (baptized) and nephi says baptism is how you enter the gate. The gate to me means how to enter the path back to heaven. Do you have alternate interpretations?

There is a difference between salvation and exaltation — and there are two different Churches to administer such — the Church of Christ administers salvation, and the Church of the Firstborn administers exaltation.

Okay I could see this being a possibility. I am definitely open to viewing things this way. I guess the best support for this is how you break down the priesthood levels and what nephi says about the church of the firstborn?

As far as what Nephi said is concerned — it’s fairly obvious that the church of the devil is made up of more than one group/church, so why not the Church of the Lamb be made up of the Church of Christ and the Church of the Firstborn?

This sort of gives away my beliefs on succession, though, as I’ve said, it should have become obvious already if my posts have been followed as of late.

Ross Wesley LeBaron taught early on in his ministry:

• “We need not fall back into the [LDS] Church, one day. But, instead, we can become part of the Church of the First-Born.” — Ross Wesley LeBaron (Ross Wesley LeBaron sermon, 6 January 1955, in Robert W. Eaby letter to Floren M. LeBaron, 25 February 1959)

In the beginning, Ross didn’t quite understand what the difference between the Church of Christ and the Church of the Firstborn was. He merely thought that one was for a Gentile era, while one was for a Patriarchal era which pertained to the House of Israel. In time he learned line upon line and began to understand, which I’ll briefly explain.

Fred C. Collier said:

• “He [Ross Wesley LeBaron] knew that the Church of the Firstborn was a Patriarchal Order and he knew that the Church of Christ wasn’t, and he knew about the Times of the Gentiles and the Times of Israel and that the Times of Israel was come in. He also knew about the Patriarchal Priesthood, but notwithstanding the difference in the nature of their organization, as of that time (in his mind) the Church of the Firstborn and the Church of Christ both served the same basic purpose. In other words, their basic difference was not yet revealed to him, other than that one was Patriarchal and the other was not. . . . It wasn’t long after that, that I received a revelation that the Church of Jesus Christ was for the Salvation of mankind, while the Church of the Firstborn was for the Exaltation of man, and that the family related Temple ordinances had to do with the Church of the Firstborn — while Baptism, the Sacrament and the other ordinances had to do with the Church of Christ. From that time on I began to receive revelation about the Church of the Firstborn and the Priesthood.” — Fred C. Collier (Doctrinal Teachings of Patriarch Fred C. Collier vol. 2 pages 1053, 1054)

One day Fred was talking to another one of Ross’ followers about this, to which this man said that he had a Brigham Young quote which contradicted this. The quote read thus:

• “The ordinances of the house of God are expressly for the Church of the Firstborn.” — Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses vol. 8 <26 August 1860> page 154)

Upon hearing this, Fred said: “That doesn’t contradict my revelation, that confirms it!”

Continuing with the narrative:

• “After having a discussion with Ross about this subject at his residence in the mini warehouse, on the 7th of August 1974, the spirit touched Ross’ mind and he accepted it and reiterated the concept. I then asked permission from him to write it down as a revelation to him, to which he consented . . .” — Fred C. Collier (Doctrinal Teachings of Patriarch Fred C. Collier vol. 2 page 1038)

The revelation reads as follows:

• “A man obtains the right to Salvation through demonstrating that he is willing to live harmoniously in a Society which is Governed by the Priesthood of God.
  A man obtains exaltation by organizing a society of his own under the priesthood and according to the laws and ordinances of the ‘Holy Order of God’ the same as all Gods have done before us.
  It is the primary purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ to offer salvation to all mankind by teaching them the necessary social laws of love and respect which when incorporated into our lives enable us to live in a state of harmony in the Kingdom of God. Through the atonement of Christ salvation is offered as a free Gift to all those who demonstrate that they will live accordingly.
  It is the Primary purpose of the Church of the Firstborn to offer mankind exaltation by opening to their minds a knowledge of the Laws and ordinances of the ‘Holy Order of God’ and also by offering them an opportunity to receive the same through the authority of the priesthood that they might have the privledge of entering into their exaltation.” (Revelation given to Ross Wesley LeBaron, 7 August 1974, in Research Journal of Fred C. Collier page 308)

It’s worth noting that for seven years before this revelation given to Ross on the roles of these two Churches, that he already comprehended that there was a lower and higher order of the Melchizedek Priesthood:

• “It was not until 1967, that Ross finally came to understand that there were two basic orders of the Melchizedek Priesthood — that the Lower Order of the Melchizedek Priesthood was Restored by Peter, James and John, and that the Highest Order was Restored by Moses, Elias and Elijah — and that the Priesthood which was Restored by Peter, James and John was the Priesthood that was after the Order of the Son of God and has to do with the Church of Christ (TPJS 237; HC Vol 1:359) — while the Priesthood which was Restored in the Kirtland Temple was Inherently a Patriarchal Priesthood that is properly referred to as the Priesthood of the Holy Order of God and that Fundamentally this Priesthood Pertains to the Church of the Firstborn. (D&C 77:11) It was not until Ross came to this understanding that he finally realized in a comprehending way that he had received the Keys to the Highest authority in the Priesthood when his father [Alma Dayer LeBaron] blessed and ordained him to the Patriarchal Priesthood and gave him the charge to go ahead with the Patriarchal work in his stead. Yet this notwithstanding even as of this time Ross had believed for at least seventeen years that when Elijah appeared in the Kirtland Temple, he Restored Patriarchal Priesthood.” — Fred C. Collier (Doctrinal Teachings of Patriarch Fred C. Collier vol. 2 page 1032)

I explained last time what I believe in regards to the two orders of the Melchizedek Priesthood — the lower restored by Peter, James, and John, and the higher restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah. As is evident from the above quotations, the lower order pertains to the Church of Christ, and the higher order pertains to the Church of the Firstborn. This becomes clear from what Joseph Smith stated on the day that the higher order was first given to his select group of friends composed of nine men:

• “I spent the day in the upper part of the store, that is in my private office * * * in council with General James Adams, of Springfield, Patriarch Hyrum Smith, Bishops Newel K. Whitney and George Miller, and President Brigham Young and Elders Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards, instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles by which any one is enabled to secure the fullness of those blessings which have been prepared for the Church of the Firstborn, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the eternal worlds. In this council was instituted the ancient order of things for the first time in these last days.” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <4 May 1842> page 237, asterisks in original)

[Rumpelstiltskin]

That’s interesting. This already happened then? Does Gilaedi’s group say they have power/authority?

No. That will be given to the David servant when he appears.

So members of gileadi’s group are primarily waiting on the Davidic servant to appear on the scene?

Gileadi's group? I'm totally unaware of him having a group.

[fractal_light_harvest]

No. That will be given to the David servant when he appears.

So members of gileadi’s group are primarily waiting on the Davidic servant to appear on the scene?

Gileadi's group? I'm totally unaware of him having a group.

I’m not sure if they have a formal group or not. Sounds like no, but based on his books, people who believe in them would be looking for a Davidic servant to appear? He is still a Mormon I believe?

[fractal_light_harvest]

There is a difference between salvation and exaltation — and there are two different Churches to administer such — the Church of Christ administers salvation, and the Church of the Firstborn administers exaltation.

Okay I could see this being a possibility. I am definitely open to viewing things this way. I guess the best support for this is how you break down the priesthood levels and what nephi says about the church of the firstborn?

As far as what Nephi said is concerned — it’s fairly obvious that the church of the devil is made up of more than one group/church, so why not the Church of the Lamb be made up of the Church of Christ and the Church of the Firstborn?

This sort of gives away my beliefs on succession, though, as I’ve said, it should have become obvious already if my posts have been followed as of late.

Ross Wesley LeBaron taught early on in his ministry:

• “We need not fall back into the [LDS] Church, one day. But, instead, we can become part of the Church of the First-Born.” — Ross Wesley LeBaron (Ross Wesley LeBaron sermon, 6 January 1955, in Robert W. Eaby letter to Floren M. LeBaron, 25 February 1959)

In the beginning, Ross didn’t quite understand what the difference between the Church of Christ and the Church of the Firstborn was. He merely thought that one was for a Gentile era, while one was for a Patriarchal era which pertained to the House of Israel. In time he learned line upon line and began to understand, which I’ll briefly explain.

Fred C. Collier said:

• “He [Ross Wesley LeBaron] knew that the Church of the Firstborn was a Patriarchal Order and he knew that the Church of Christ wasn’t, and he knew about the Times of the Gentiles and the Times of Israel and that the Times of Israel was come in. He also knew about the Patriarchal Priesthood, but notwithstanding the difference in the nature of their organization, as of that time (in his mind) the Church of the Firstborn and the Church of Christ both served the same basic purpose. In other words, their basic difference was not yet revealed to him, other than that one was Patriarchal and the other was not. . . . It wasn’t long after that, that I received a revelation that the Church of Jesus Christ was for the Salvation of mankind, while the Church of the Firstborn was for the Exaltation of man, and that the family related Temple ordinances had to do with the Church of the Firstborn — while Baptism, the Sacrament and the other ordinances had to do with the Church of Christ. From that time on I began to receive revelation about the Church of the Firstborn and the Priesthood.” — Fred C. Collier (Doctrinal Teachings of Patriarch Fred C. Collier vol. 2 pages 1053, 1054)

One day Fred was talking to another one of Ross’ followers about this, to which this man said that he had a Brigham Young quote which contradicted this. The quote read thus:

• “The ordinances of the house of God are expressly for the Church of the Firstborn.” — Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses vol. 8 <26 August 1860> page 154)

Upon hearing this, Fred said: “That doesn’t contradict my revelation, that confirms it!”

Continuing with the narrative:

• “After having a discussion with Ross about this subject at his residence in the mini warehouse, on the 7th of August 1974, the spirit touched Ross’ mind and he accepted it and reiterated the concept. I then asked permission from him to write it down as a revelation to him, to which he consented . . .” — Fred C. Collier (Doctrinal Teachings of Patriarch Fred C. Collier vol. 2 page 1038)

The revelation reads as follows:

• “A man obtains the right to Salvation through demonstrating that he is willing to live harmoniously in a Society which is Governed by the Priesthood of God.
  A man obtains exaltation by organizing a society of his own under the priesthood and according to the laws and ordinances of the ‘Holy Order of God’ the same as all Gods have done before us.
  It is the primary purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ to offer salvation to all mankind by teaching them the necessary social laws of love and respect which when incorporated into our lives enable us to live in a state of harmony in the Kingdom of God. Through the atonement of Christ salvation is offered as a free Gift to all those who demonstrate that they will live accordingly.
  It is the Primary purpose of the Church of the Firstborn to offer mankind exaltation by opening to their minds a knowledge of the Laws and ordinances of the ‘Holy Order of God’ and also by offering them an opportunity to receive the same through the authority of the priesthood that they might have the privledge of entering into their exaltation.” (Revelation given to Ross Wesley LeBaron, 7 August 1974, in Research Journal of Fred C. Collier page 308)

It’s worth noting that for seven years before this revelation given to Ross on the roles of these two Churches, that he already comprehended that there was a lower and higher order of the Melchizedek Priesthood:

• “It was not until 1967, that Ross finally came to understand that there were two basic orders of the Melchizedek Priesthood — that the Lower Order of the Melchizedek Priesthood was Restored by Peter, James and John, and that the Highest Order was Restored by Moses, Elias and Elijah — and that the Priesthood which was Restored by Peter, James and John was the Priesthood that was after the Order of the Son of God and has to do with the Church of Christ (TPJS 237; HC Vol 1:359) — while the Priesthood which was Restored in the Kirtland Temple was Inherently a Patriarchal Priesthood that is properly referred to as the Priesthood of the Holy Order of God and that Fundamentally this Priesthood Pertains to the Church of the Firstborn. (D&C 77:11) It was not until Ross came to this understanding that he finally realized in a comprehending way that he had received the Keys to the Highest authority in the Priesthood when his father [Alma Dayer LeBaron] blessed and ordained him to the Patriarchal Priesthood and gave him the charge to go ahead with the Patriarchal work in his stead. Yet this notwithstanding even as of this time Ross had believed for at least seventeen years that when Elijah appeared in the Kirtland Temple, he Restored Patriarchal Priesthood.” — Fred C. Collier (Doctrinal Teachings of Patriarch Fred C. Collier vol. 2 page 1032)

I explained last time what I believe in regards to the two orders of the Melchizedek Priesthood — the lower restored by Peter, James, and John, and the higher restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah. As is evident from the above quotations, the lower order pertains to the Church of Christ, and the higher order pertains to the Church of the Firstborn. This becomes clear from what Joseph Smith stated on the day that the higher order was first given to his select group of friends composed of nine men:

• “I spent the day in the upper part of the store, that is in my private office * * * in council with General James Adams, of Springfield, Patriarch Hyrum Smith, Bishops Newel K. Whitney and George Miller, and President Brigham Young and Elders Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards, instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles by which any one is enabled to secure the fullness of those blessings which have been prepared for the Church of the Firstborn, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the eternal worlds. In this council was instituted the ancient order of things for the first time in these last days.” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <4 May 1842> page 237, asterisks in original)

This could be interesting. You see Ross LeBaron as not having committed any crimes? I believe there could be multiple churches and so on.

[fractal_light_harvest]

There is a difference between salvation and exaltation — and there are two different Churches to administer such — the Church of Christ administers salvation, and the Church of the Firstborn administers exaltation.

Okay I could see this being a possibility. I am definitely open to viewing things this way. I guess the best support for this is how you break down the priesthood levels and what nephi says about the church of the firstborn?

As far as what Nephi said is concerned — it’s fairly obvious that the church of the devil is made up of more than one group/church, so why not the Church of the Lamb be made up of the Church of Christ and the Church of the Firstborn?

This sort of gives away my beliefs on succession, though, as I’ve said, it should have become obvious already if my posts have been followed as of late.

Ross Wesley LeBaron taught early on in his ministry:

• “We need not fall back into the [LDS] Church, one day. But, instead, we can become part of the Church of the First-Born.” — Ross Wesley LeBaron (Ross Wesley LeBaron sermon, 6 January 1955, in Robert W. Eaby letter to Floren M. LeBaron, 25 February 1959)

In the beginning, Ross didn’t quite understand what the difference between the Church of Christ and the Church of the Firstborn was. He merely thought that one was for a Gentile era, while one was for a Patriarchal era which pertained to the House of Israel. In time he learned line upon line and began to understand, which I’ll briefly explain.

Fred C. Collier said:

• “He [Ross Wesley LeBaron] knew that the Church of the Firstborn was a Patriarchal Order and he knew that the Church of Christ wasn’t, and he knew about the Times of the Gentiles and the Times of Israel and that the Times of Israel was come in. He also knew about the Patriarchal Priesthood, but notwithstanding the difference in the nature of their organization, as of that time (in his mind) the Church of the Firstborn and the Church of Christ both served the same basic purpose. In other words, their basic difference was not yet revealed to him, other than that one was Patriarchal and the other was not. . . . It wasn’t long after that, that I received a revelation that the Church of Jesus Christ was for the Salvation of mankind, while the Church of the Firstborn was for the Exaltation of man, and that the family related Temple ordinances had to do with the Church of the Firstborn — while Baptism, the Sacrament and the other ordinances had to do with the Church of Christ. From that time on I began to receive revelation about the Church of the Firstborn and the Priesthood.” — Fred C. Collier (Doctrinal Teachings of Patriarch Fred C. Collier vol. 2 pages 1053, 1054)

One day Fred was talking to another one of Ross’ followers about this, to which this man said that he had a Brigham Young quote which contradicted this. The quote read thus:

• “The ordinances of the house of God are expressly for the Church of the Firstborn.” — Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses vol. 8 <26 August 1860> page 154)

Upon hearing this, Fred said: “That doesn’t contradict my revelation, that confirms it!”

Continuing with the narrative:

• “After having a discussion with Ross about this subject at his residence in the mini warehouse, on the 7th of August 1974, the spirit touched Ross’ mind and he accepted it and reiterated the concept. I then asked permission from him to write it down as a revelation to him, to which he consented . . .” — Fred C. Collier (Doctrinal Teachings of Patriarch Fred C. Collier vol. 2 page 1038)

The revelation reads as follows:

• “A man obtains the right to Salvation through demonstrating that he is willing to live harmoniously in a Society which is Governed by the Priesthood of God.
  A man obtains exaltation by organizing a society of his own under the priesthood and according to the laws and ordinances of the ‘Holy Order of God’ the same as all Gods have done before us.
  It is the primary purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ to offer salvation to all mankind by teaching them the necessary social laws of love and respect which when incorporated into our lives enable us to live in a state of harmony in the Kingdom of God. Through the atonement of Christ salvation is offered as a free Gift to all those who demonstrate that they will live accordingly.
  It is the Primary purpose of the Church of the Firstborn to offer mankind exaltation by opening to their minds a knowledge of the Laws and ordinances of the ‘Holy Order of God’ and also by offering them an opportunity to receive the same through the authority of the priesthood that they might have the privledge of entering into their exaltation.” (Revelation given to Ross Wesley LeBaron, 7 August 1974, in Research Journal of Fred C. Collier page 308)

It’s worth noting that for seven years before this revelation given to Ross on the roles of these two Churches, that he already comprehended that there was a lower and higher order of the Melchizedek Priesthood:

• “It was not until 1967, that Ross finally came to understand that there were two basic orders of the Melchizedek Priesthood — that the Lower Order of the Melchizedek Priesthood was Restored by Peter, James and John, and that the Highest Order was Restored by Moses, Elias and Elijah — and that the Priesthood which was Restored by Peter, James and John was the Priesthood that was after the Order of the Son of God and has to do with the Church of Christ (TPJS 237; HC Vol 1:359) — while the Priesthood which was Restored in the Kirtland Temple was Inherently a Patriarchal Priesthood that is properly referred to as the Priesthood of the Holy Order of God and that Fundamentally this Priesthood Pertains to the Church of the Firstborn. (D&C 77:11) It was not until Ross came to this understanding that he finally realized in a comprehending way that he had received the Keys to the Highest authority in the Priesthood when his father [Alma Dayer LeBaron] blessed and ordained him to the Patriarchal Priesthood and gave him the charge to go ahead with the Patriarchal work in his stead. Yet this notwithstanding even as of this time Ross had believed for at least seventeen years that when Elijah appeared in the Kirtland Temple, he Restored Patriarchal Priesthood.” — Fred C. Collier (Doctrinal Teachings of Patriarch Fred C. Collier vol. 2 page 1032)

I explained last time what I believe in regards to the two orders of the Melchizedek Priesthood — the lower restored by Peter, James, and John, and the higher restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah. As is evident from the above quotations, the lower order pertains to the Church of Christ, and the higher order pertains to the Church of the Firstborn. This becomes clear from what Joseph Smith stated on the day that the higher order was first given to his select group of friends composed of nine men:

• “I spent the day in the upper part of the store, that is in my private office * * * in council with General James Adams, of Springfield, Patriarch Hyrum Smith, Bishops Newel K. Whitney and George Miller, and President Brigham Young and Elders Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards, instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles by which any one is enabled to secure the fullness of those blessings which have been prepared for the Church of the Firstborn, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the eternal worlds. In this council was instituted the ancient order of things for the first time in these last days.” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <4 May 1842> page 237, asterisks in original)

Now that I have thought about it more and looked at some scriptures, I am definitely leaning towards the idea that there are atleast two churches based on what you wrote. This leads me to believe that there could or may be a bifurcation of the melchizedek priesthood exactly how you described or close to it

I am agnostic about whether that happened with peter, james, john and then moses, and so on in the Kirkland temple. Or at the Morley farm or at another time. I do think when Jesus went to the mount and communed with moses and Elias that could be something similar but I am not sure yet.

[HereWeGo]

Ok it’s making sense to me I believe. I looked at some scriptures and I believe this is *one* of several possibilities. I am still unclear about one mighty and strong or how the church would be set in order if it is out of order right now (which I believe it is), so I am currently favoring this theory but I will need to study, pray, so on. And validate if snuffer truly did wrest the keys or anything like that. Thank you for your answers!

The Davidic Servant will set in order what has has been messed up by the out of order LDS Church. I don't think it says the church will be set in order. I believe the church will NOT be set in order but will continue on in its out of order state. The Servant will correct the bad doctrines and give what the Lord would have happen from this point on. It will be outside of the LDS Church.

[fractal_light_harvest]

Ok it’s making sense to me I believe. I looked at some scriptures and I believe this is *one* of several possibilities. I am still unclear about one mighty and strong or how the church would be set in order if it is out of order right now (which I believe it is), so I am currently favoring this theory but I will need to study, pray, so on. And validate if snuffer truly did wrest the keys or anything like that. Thank you for your answers!

The Davidic Servant will set in order what has has been messed up by the out of order LDS Church. I don't think it says the church will be set in order. I believe the church will NOT be set in order but will continue on in its out of order state. The Servant will correct the bad doctrines and give what the Lord would have happen from this point on. It will be outside of the LDS Church.

Okay I see. The servant will do something *outside* the formal lds organization then in your understanding. How do we know that it will be outside the organization though?

[Luke]

You see Ross LeBaron as not having committed any crimes?

I’m not sure what you’re asking here.

[Luke]

So members of gileadi’s group are primarily waiting on the Davidic servant to appear on the scene?

Gileadi's group? I'm totally unaware of him having a group.

I’m not sure if they have a formal group or not. Sounds like no, but based on his books, people who believe in them would be looking for a Davidic servant to appear? He is still a Mormon I believe?

There is no Gileadi Group. There’s people who believe in his material scattered all over Mormondom. As for Gileadi himself, from what I’ve read of him, he believes that the LDS Church is still the legitimate Church, even though it’s wayward, and that the servant will “fix it”. Which I personally see as a pipe-dream, but everyone is entitled to their viewpoint.

[Refraction75]

Ok here is my take on things...I am trying to figure things out like you...having served a mission and being sealed to my wife in the temple.

I have stopped trusting the LDS church because of they are obviously going against the scriptures.

I guess I have held tighter to the new testament and what Christ himself taught.

Here are some verses that have really stood out to me about what Christ taught and established that seems off from my LDS upbringing. It also raises questions on power and authority and ordinances that were performed.

Mathew 8

24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

(Power of the miracles is brought in by faith in Jesus Christ. This is what caused Peter to walk on water. I don't think priesthood has anything to do with it.) (So far this is my current belief)


(When Christ first called his 12 disciples these were the rules they needed to live by...)


Mathew 10

1.And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

(I believe this power they had was really faith in Jesus Christ)

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

(True disciples don't collect money/tithes for the work. The gospel and miracles performed is always was free. John the Baptist didn't get money and neither did Christ.) ( John was teaching people in the wilderness and baptizing them. John wasn't feasting on rib eye steaks in a synagogue...He was eating locusts and honey out in the wilderness for heaven sakes!)

Mathew 23

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

(I also believe this negates every religion from qualifying to be Christ's on the basis that they all collect money from their followers to get gain)

Mathew 10

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

(Church leaders during Christ's time would would make up councils and scourge his disciples. Christ is warning his disciples when he first called them. Sound familiar in the LDS church?)

Mathew 12

9. And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:

(Christ enters the church or synagogue)

10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

(Christ preached in the synagogues or churches healed a bunch of people then left into the wilderness... and the people followed him...Can you imagine this happening in an LDS congregation? The only one left would be the bishopric in the stands...now imagine if there was a paid ministry...no wonder they wanted Christ dead)


(Christ didn't preach inclusivity and peacefulness like the LDS teach.)

Mathew 10

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mathew 21

12. And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

( He cast out the money changers selling doves in the temple. You cannot buy salvation in the temple)

14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

( sore displeased...because he cut off their money revenue)

(What authority did he really give...)

Mathew 16

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(For this statement to be true from Christ there was neither an apostasy nor a restoration) (christ teaching have survived through the years....Are we talking about a physical church or a spiritual church?)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(I believe these keys are not authoritative like the Pharisees and Sadducees preached but a spiritual state of being of one self)

(Further proof of this spiritual state of being was taught by Paul)

1 Corinthians 3

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

(Paul walked with Christ why did he say this..? He wasnt talking about a physical place that saves you...the kingdom of God is for those following Christ teachings in their heart and acting on the spiritual prompting of the holy ghost to love god and your fellow man with your whole heart. Miracles are performed with faith in Christ not priesthood authority.)

(If this wasn't the case why did Christ say this...?)

Mark 9

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

(This guy is performing miracles in Christ's name but neither does Christ, nor his disciples know of him...then John is questioning if he has "authority" to do this...Christ then teaches that miracles can't happen if they don't believe/faith in Christ)

(Christ further shows how important his spiritual teachings are to men)

Mathew 16

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

(He will reward a man according to his spiritual works and faith in him)

Luke 17

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

( They were counting how many steps they took on the sabath for observance...)

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(The kingdom of God resides within you)

John 18

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

(His kingdom is a spiritual one not a physical manifistation of a building)

Mathew 21

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

(Faith is the power not the priesthood)

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

(Isn't this what you are asking who has authority?)

24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

(One thing is clear miracles follow the believers of Christ...and by their fruits you will know them...if God called a prophet)

[ransomme]

Ok here is my take on things...I am trying to figure things out like you...having served a mission and being sealed to my wife in the temple.

I have stopped trusting the LDS church because of they are obviously going against the scriptures.

I guess I have held tighter to the new testament and what Christ himself taught.

Here are some verses that have really stood out to me about what Christ taught and established that seems off from my LDS upbringing. It also raises questions on power and authority and ordinances that were performed.

Mathew 8

24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

(Power of the miracles is brought in by faith in Jesus Christ. This is what caused caused Peter to walk on water. I don't think priesthood has anything to do with it.) (So far this is my current belief)


(When Christ first called his 12 disciples these were the rules they needed to live by...)


Mathew 10

1.And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

(I believe this power they had was really faith in Jesus Christ)

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

(True disciples don't collect money/tithes for the work. The gospel and miracles performed is always was free. John the Baptist didn't get money and neither did Christ.) ( John was teaching people in the wilderness and baptizing them. John wasn't feasting on rib eye steaks in a synagogue...He was eating locusts and honey out in the wilderness for heaven sakes!)

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

(I also believe this negates every religion from qualifying to be Christ's on the basis that they all collect money from their followers to get gain)

Mathew 10

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

(Church leaders during Christ's time would would make up councils and scourge his disciples. Christ is warning his disciples when he first called them. Sound familiar in the LDS church?)

Mathew 12

9. And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:

(Christ enters the church or synagogue)

10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

(Christ preached in the synagogues or churches healed a bunch of people then left into the wilderness... and the people followed him...Can you imagine this happening in an LDS congregation? The only one left would be the bishopric in the stands...now imagine if there was a paid ministry...no wonder they wanted Christ dead)


(Christ didn't preach inclusivity and peacefulness like the LDS teach.)

Mathew 10

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mathew 21

12. And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

( He cast out the money changers selling doves in the temple. You cannot buy salvation in the temple)

14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

( sore displeased...because he cut off their money revenue)

(What authority did he really give...)

Mathew 16

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(For this statement to be true from Christ there was neither an apostasy nor a restoration) (christ teaching have survived through the years....Are we talking about a physical church or a spiritual church?)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(I believe these keys are not authoritative like the Pharisees and Sadducees preached but a spiritual state of being of one self)

(Further proof of this spiritual state of being was taught by Paul)

1 Corinthians 3

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

(Paul walked with Christ why did he say this..? He wasnt talking about a physical place that saves you...the kingdom of God is for those following Christ teachings in their heart and acting on the spiritual prompting of the holy ghost to love god and your fellow man with your whole heart. Miracles are performed with faith in Christ not priesthood authority.)

(If this wasn't the case why did Christ say this...?)

Mark 9

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

(This guy is performing miracles in Christ's name but neither does Christ, nor his disciples know of him...then John is questioning if he has "authority" to do this...Christ then teaches that miracles can't happen if they don't believe/faith in Christ)

(Christ further shows how important his spiritual teachings are to men)

Mathew 16

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

(He will reward a man according to his spiritual works and faith in him)

Luke 17

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

( They were counting how many steps they took on the sabath for observance...)

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(The kingdom of God resides within you)

John 18

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

(His kingdom is a spiritual one not a physical manifistation of a building)

Mathew 21

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

(Faith is the power not the priesthood)

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

(Isn't this what you are asking who has authority?)

24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

(One thing is clear miracles follow the believers of Christ...and by their fruits you will know them...if God called a prophet)

I agree, and put forth a refinement:
When one is righteous, right with God, then faith is the fuel, the power is the authority of God. And the gifts of the Spirit are also often conflated and confused with the power/authority of the priesthood.