Does the LDS church have valid ordinances?

[ransomme]

I am still interested in the authority and power to do outward priesthood ordinances topic. I do believe personally the church lost all or much of the Holy Ghost (possibly due to Covid) but am still wrestling with how authority works in God’s house. I only check in on this forum when I have down time so sorry if this issue has been beat like a dead horse in the past. I’m a numbers guy so I did it as a poll.

I get what you are saying but, the authority is the power. They aren't separate things.

Also there are different ordinances. Such as, perhaps baptism is valid but temple ordinances are either not valid because the authority was lost, or were never a legit thing.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Based on the responses to the poll, I’m not sure we understand how the Lord taught “power and authority.”

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

The LDS org gets an “F” in almost every category here. Especially with Nelson’s recent GC talk, but also historically. If a man can lose authority for doing such things, what does it say of a church?

[Reluctant Watchman]

I am still interested in the authority and power to do outward priesthood ordinances topic. I do believe personally the church lost all or much of the Holy Ghost (possibly due to Covid) but am still wrestling with how authority works in God’s house. I only check in on this forum when I have down time so sorry if this issue has been beat like a dead horse in the past. I’m a numbers guy so I did it as a poll.

I get what you are saying but, the authority is the power. They aren't separate things.

Also there are different ordinances. Such as, perhaps baptism is valid but temple ordinances are either not valid because the authority was lost, or were never a legit thing.

Is authority power? The Lord may authorize many things, yet it is incumbent upon the faith (aka power) of a person.

[Reluctant Watchman]

To answer the OP, I would step back and look at the core or principle ordinances performed in the church:

• baptism/confirmation
• priesthood
• temple endowment
• marriage/sealing

As has been noted in the thread, the authority or commission of the Lord would have direct application to all of these, but that’s a huge topic somewhat independent.

Let’s just break down the core principles.

Baptism: You must “sustain” a church leader to be baptized. That means you commit to obey men, and make an oath-like commitment to them that is binding upon you. That is a false belief. It is wrong. Now, the general commitment as taught in the BoM is correct, but the LDS org has a skewed perspective on it.

Priesthood: It should not be conveyed through hands on heads only. King Noah would have had the power and authority then if such were the case. He did not. We could look at many historical examples. Only when the Lord gives a personal commission to the priesthood is any ordination warranted.

Temple: We have to start before we even enter the doors. Very little is taught about the endowment before entering, yet nearly all of it could be taught in a Primary class. The Q15 have become gatekeepers. Remember, you have to “sustain” (see above) a whole list of men before you can approach God. An incorrect tithe is required. And you have to keep a commandment (WoW) that was specifically taught as NOT a commandment. And, mind you, it is taught incorrectly. Then you have to say you believe all of the historical truth claims of the Restoration, which there are many lies.

And then you enter, sit through a video presentation, are told not to talk , not to ask any questions, and don’t talk about any of it outside when you leave. And for the Law of the Gospel they hold up the scriptures and tell you it’s in there somewhere. And in reality, the gospel is the leaders, since so many “gospel” teachings contradict Christ’s teachings. For the Law of Virtue, they now say you can think about being homosexual, just not act on it (as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he). For the Law of Sacrifice, it points toward the church, and the Law of Consecration points to the church as well.

So how can any of these laws and ordinances of the endowment be valid?

Marriage/Sealing: The church supports gay marriage to protect their 501c3 status. Seriously, that’s a quote from oaks. Very little is taught about the sealing power of the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Oh, and I could go on in greater detail about the false Second Anointing ordinance in the church.

[BenMcCrea]

The church wants nothing more than to make you subject to its authority. It used to be kind of benign, but since COVID, it's flat-out fraud. So, it doesn't matter, anymore. Just seek Jesus. He is all that will matter because He is the truth, not some NWO church.

So any power would come straight from Jesus then in your understanding?

John 15:16 We don’t choose him - he chooses his servants and ordains them and then those servants have authority to choose and ordain others.

This is how it was in the New Testament Church and this is how it is in the restored Church. Apostates have to reject this doctrine otherwise they would have to admit they have no authority and no power.

[ransomme]

I am still interested in the authority and power to do outward priesthood ordinances topic. I do believe personally the church lost all or much of the Holy Ghost (possibly due to Covid) but am still wrestling with how authority works in God’s house. I only check in on this forum when I have down time so sorry if this issue has been beat like a dead horse in the past. I’m a numbers guy so I did it as a poll.

I get what you are saying but, the authority is the power. They aren't separate things.

Also there are different ordinances. Such as, perhaps baptism is valid but temple ordinances are either not valid because the authority was lost, or were never a legit thing.

Is authority power? The Lord may authorize many things, yet it is incumbent upon the faith (aka power) of a person.

No they are different, for sure

Moroni 10
7And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

Genesis 14 (JST)
30For God, having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself that everyone being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course,

Acts 6
8And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

1 Corinthians 2
5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1 Peter 1
5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[fractal_light_harvest]

According to Isaiah because the leaders and members of the LDS church have perverted God's laws and changed his ordinances they have been rendered null and void!!

Isaiah:
24:4–6 The earth shall pine away, the world miserably perish; the elite of the earth shall be made wretched. The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants: they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinances, set at nought the ancient covenant. The curse devours the earth, for those who dwell on it have incurred guilt; because of it the population of the earth shall be diminished and little of mankind remain.

The destruction of the “earth” and the “world” parallels that of Greater Babylon, which also consists of the “earth” and the “world” (Isaiah 13:5, 9, 11, 13; 14:16–17, 21, 26; 16:4; 23:9). The decimation of “mankind” continues that theme (Isaiah 13:12; 33:8). Causing these curses is the wickedness of Jehovah’s people, who have altered his “ordinances” or “ritual” (hoq) and perverted his “laws” or “doctrine” (torot), thereby violating Jehovah’s covenant and rendering it void. Jehovah’s servant, who personifies Jehovah’s covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8), they likewise set at nought (Isaiah 49:7; 50:5–11; 52:14).

I also believe this though I didn’t understand this verse as completely until now. My next question then is if the LDS ordinances are void what then? So far I am leaning towards looking for individuals who have done things that would indicate they have the power and authority from god to do a certain ordinance?

[fractal_light_harvest]

I am still interested in the authority and power to do outward priesthood ordinances topic. I do believe personally the church lost all or much of the Holy Ghost (possibly due to Covid) but am still wrestling with how authority works in God’s house. I only check in on this forum when I have down time so sorry if this issue has been beat like a dead horse in the past. I’m a numbers guy so I did it as a poll.

I get what you are saying but, the authority is the power. They aren't separate things.

Also there are different ordinances. Such as, perhaps baptism is valid but temple ordinances are either not valid because the authority was lost, or were never a legit thing.

Okay I am open to seeing it this way. I’ve heard people say you must have both power and authority so I wanted to account for all likely possibilities to hear as many views as possible. But I do believe if they have power to an ordinance they likely have authority because of what d&c 121 reads.

[fractal_light_harvest]

I am still interested in the authority and power to do outward priesthood ordinances topic. I do believe personally the church lost all or much of the Holy Ghost (possibly due to Covid) but am still wrestling with how authority works in God’s house. I only check in on this forum when I have down time so sorry if this issue has been beat like a dead horse in the past. I’m a numbers guy so I did it as a poll.

I get what you are saying but, the authority is the power. They aren't separate things.

Also there are different ordinances. Such as, perhaps baptism is valid but temple ordinances are either not valid because the authority was lost, or were never a legit thing.

Is authority power? The Lord may authorize many things, yet it is incumbent upon the faith (aka power) of a person.

I can also see this being a likely possibility too. Right now I see it as you could be authorized but have no power. But if you have power then that person must be authorized or they couldn’t have any power. That is my current theory about it.

[fractal_light_harvest]

The church wants nothing more than to make you subject to its authority. It used to be kind of benign, but since COVID, it's flat-out fraud. So, it doesn't matter, anymore. Just seek Jesus. He is all that will matter because He is the truth, not some NWO church.

So any power would come straight from Jesus then in your understanding?

John 15:16 We don’t choose him - he chooses his servants and ordains them and then those servants have authority to choose and ordain others.

This is how it was in the New Testament Church and this is how it is in the restored Church. Apostates have to reject this doctrine otherwise they would have to admit they have no authority and no power.

I sort of believe this but how do we know that all servants have the ability to ordain others or pass the power/authority on for sure?

[Niemand]

According to Snuffer, some people in the church could have priesthood power/authority. Those that were ordained prior to April 2014, I believe it was. But the general authorities lost their priesthood at the April 2014 general conference. There have been signs of the apostasy, like Eldred G. Smith, patriarch to the church (emeritus) dying at the age of 106 in 2013.

That's me in the clear then.

[fractal_light_harvest]

I get what you are saying but, the authority is the power. They aren't separate things.

Also there are different ordinances. Such as, perhaps baptism is valid but temple ordinances are either not valid because the authority was lost, or were never a legit thing.

Is authority power? The Lord may authorize many things, yet it is incumbent upon the faith (aka power) of a person.

No they are different, for sure

Moroni 10
7And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

Genesis 14 (JST)
30For God, having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself that everyone being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course,

Acts 6
8And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

1 Corinthians 2
5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1 Peter 1
5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This explains it very nicely. Thank you. This validates my theory I believe. You must have power but it could be possible to be authorized but still not have gained sufficient power (which is faith) to do a certain ordinance.

[fractal_light_harvest]

To answer the OP, I would step back and look at the core or principle ordinances performed in the church:

• baptism/confirmation
• priesthood
• temple endowment
• marriage/sealing

As has been noted in the thread, the authority or commission of the Lord would have direct application to all of these, but that’s a huge topic somewhat independent.

Let’s just break down the core principles.

Baptism: You must “sustain” a church leader to be baptized. That means you commit to obey men, and make an oath-like commitment to them that is binding upon you. That is a false belief. It is wrong. Now, the general commitment as taught in the BoM is correct, but the LDS org has a skewed perspective on it.

Priesthood: It should not be conveyed through hands on heads only. King Noah would have had the power and authority then if such were the case. He did not. We could look at many historical examples. Only when the Lord gives a personal commission to the priesthood is any ordination warranted.

Temple: We have to start before we even enter the doors. Very little is taught about the endowment before entering, yet nearly all of it could be taught in a Primary class. The Q15 have become gatekeepers. Remember, you have to “sustain” (see above) a whole list of men before you can approach God. An incorrect tithe is required. And you have to keep a commandment (WoW) that was specifically taught as NOT a commandment. And, mind you, it is taught incorrectly. Then you have to say you believe all of the historical truth claims of the Restoration, which there are many lies.

And then you enter, sit through a video presentation, are told not to talk , not to ask any questions, and don’t talk about any of it outside when you leave. And for the Law of the Gospel they hold up the scriptures and tell you it’s in there somewhere. And in reality, the gospel is the leaders, since so many “gospel” teachings contradict Christ’s teachings. For the Law of Virtue, they now say you can think about being homosexual, just not act on it (as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he). For the Law of Sacrifice, it points toward the church, and the Law of Consecration points to the church as well.

So how can any of these laws and ordinances of the endowment be valid?

Marriage/Sealing: The church supports gay marriage to protect their 501c3 status. Seriously, that’s a quote from oaks. Very little is taught about the sealing power of the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Oh, and I could go on in greater detail about the false Second Anointing ordinance in the church.

Okay this interesting. It is my current belief that the current leaders may have *inserted themselves* between the person and the lord when participating in a covenant in the lds church. So to get baptized or ordained for example you have to make a commitment or oath to the church leaders *and* the Lord instead of just the lord. And you have to accept creed like statements to be accepted such as “I believe Nelson is a prophet of god” instead of just asserting you have faith in Jesus Christ.

[silverado]

According to Snuffer, some people in the church could have priesthood power/authority. Those that were ordained prior to April 2014, I believe it was. But the general authorities lost their priesthood at the April 2014 general conference. There have been signs of the apostasy, like Eldred G. Smith, patriarch to the church (emeritus) dying at the age of 106 in 2013.

That's me in the clear then.

What happened in April 2014?

[Luke]

According to Snuffer, some people in the church could have priesthood power/authority. Those that were ordained prior to April 2014, I believe it was. But the general authorities lost their priesthood at the April 2014 general conference. There have been signs of the apostasy, like Eldred G. Smith, patriarch to the church (emeritus) dying at the age of 106 in 2013.

That's me in the clear then.

What happened in April 2014?

Snuffer was excommunicated.

[Wolfwoman]

That's me in the clear then.

What happened in April 2014?

Snuffer was excommunicated.

He was excommunicated about 7 months prior to that. He appealed to the first presidency to overturn it, but was denied. He then wrote to the quorum of the 12 and the 70s explaining the situation. So he says when they all raised their hand to vote to sustain the first presidency in the April general conference, their priesthood was cut off at that time. He says he did not intend it to go that way, but it was God’s will/plan.

[Luke]

What happened in April 2014?

Snuffer was excommunicated.

He was excommunicated about 7 months prior to that. He appealed to the first presidency to overturn it, but was denied. He then wrote to the quorum of the 12 and the 70s explaining the situation. So he says when they all raised their hand to vote to sustain the first presidency in the April general conference, their priesthood was cut off at that time. He says he did not intend it to go that way, but it was God’s will/plan.

Yes that is his take — I very much simplified it.

[Erastothenes]

Honestly,I dont mind attending the temple. Its calm and relaxing...so is fishing. The ordinances seem soooooo silly and ridiculous though. Think about it from an outsiders perspective. If you think that somehow God requires these things to enter heaven then I dont know what to tell you.

[fractal_light_harvest]

Honestly,I dont mind attending the temple. Its calm and relaxing...so is fishing. The ordinances seem soooooo silly and ridiculous though. Think about it from an outsiders perspective. If you think that somehow God requires these things to enter heaven then I dont know what to tell you.

I sometimes feel this way too. I’m not sure if it’s the ordinances themselves or how members interpret/carry them out that *sometimes* seems silly to me.

One of my main purposes for asking this question is from my study of the new testament and book of mormon. Christ tells his disciples to go and preach/baptize all creatures

Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. mark 16

And he tells nicodemus he must be born again (baptized) and nephi says baptism is how you enter the gate. The gate to me means how to enter the path back to heaven. Do you have alternate interpretations?

[fractal_light_harvest]

What happened in April 2014?

Snuffer was excommunicated.

He was excommunicated about 7 months prior to that. He appealed to the first presidency to overturn it, but was denied. He then wrote to the quorum of the 12 and the 70s explaining the situation. So he says when they all raised their hand to vote to sustain the first presidency in the April general conference, their priesthood was cut off at that time. He says he did not intend it to go that way, but it was God’s will/plan.

Okay I see. I suppose there is the Snuffer based group, doctrine of Christ group, various polygamist groups (believe there are many) and that’s all I know of as far as restorationist/fundamentalist groups. RLDS too maybe? This idea from snuffer of institutional abuse leading to forfeiting authority is interesting I’ll admit. I may study it more to see if it equates to John the Baptist wresting the keys or what was happening with Elijah?

EDIT: oh and the mentinah group doing the mentinah record I just learned of from reluctant watchman.

[Wolfwoman]

Snuffer was excommunicated.

He was excommunicated about 7 months prior to that. He appealed to the first presidency to overturn it, but was denied. He then wrote to the quorum of the 12 and the 70s explaining the situation. So he says when they all raised their hand to vote to sustain the first presidency in the April general conference, their priesthood was cut off at that time. He says he did not intend it to go that way, but it was God’s will/plan.

Okay I see. I suppose there is the Snuffer based group, doctrine of Christ group, various polygamist groups (believe there are many) and that’s all I know of as far as restorationist/fundamentalist groups. RLDS too maybe? This idea from snuffer of institutional abuse leading to forfeiting authority is interesting I’ll admit. I may study it more to see if it equates to John the Baptist wresting the keys or what was happening with Elijah?

EDIT: oh and the mentinah group doing the mentinah record I just learned of from reluctant watchman.

Yes, he likened it to John the Baptist wresting the keys.
He’s a lawyer, so it’s a bit of a legal thing, probably.
And there is D&C 121 that explains when priesthood is taken away.
Also Moses and the higher priesthood being taken away from the children of Israel, leaving them with the Aaronic priesthood only.

[fractal_light_harvest]

He was excommunicated about 7 months prior to that. He appealed to the first presidency to overturn it, but was denied. He then wrote to the quorum of the 12 and the 70s explaining the situation. So he says when they all raised their hand to vote to sustain the first presidency in the April general conference, their priesthood was cut off at that time. He says he did not intend it to go that way, but it was God’s will/plan.

Okay I see. I suppose there is the Snuffer based group, doctrine of Christ group, various polygamist groups (believe there are many) and that’s all I know of as far as restorationist/fundamentalist groups. RLDS too maybe? This idea from snuffer of institutional abuse leading to forfeiting authority is interesting I’ll admit. I may study it more to see if it equates to John the Baptist wresting the keys or what was happening with Elijah?

EDIT: oh and the mentinah group doing the mentinah record I just learned of from reluctant watchman.

Yes, he likened it to John the Baptist wresting the keys.
He’s a lawyer, so it’s a bit of a legal thing, probably.
And there is D&C 121 that explains when priesthood is taken away.
Also Moses and the higher priesthood being taken away from the children of Israel, leaving them with the Aaronic priesthood only.

So now authority would be with him or with people within his group because he wrested the authority or possibly whatever the keys are? Do you know if he or that group believes only people in the group can have authority or if those outside it can as well?

[Wolfwoman]

Okay I see. I suppose there is the Snuffer based group, doctrine of Christ group, various polygamist groups (believe there are many) and that’s all I know of as far as restorationist/fundamentalist groups. RLDS too maybe? This idea from snuffer of institutional abuse leading to forfeiting authority is interesting I’ll admit. I may study it more to see if it equates to John the Baptist wresting the keys or what was happening with Elijah?

EDIT: oh and the mentinah group doing the mentinah record I just learned of from reluctant watchman.

Yes, he likened it to John the Baptist wresting the keys.
He’s a lawyer, so it’s a bit of a legal thing, probably.
And there is D&C 121 that explains when priesthood is taken away.
Also Moses and the higher priesthood being taken away from the children of Israel, leaving them with the Aaronic priesthood only.

So now authority would be with him or with people within his group because he wrested the authority or possibly whatever the keys are? Do you know if he or that group believes only people in the group can have authority or if those outside it can as well?

Like I said, people who were legitimately ordained prior to 2014 would still have valid priesthood authority if they didn’t do something to have it taken away.
But they need to follow Christ’s instructions and do the ordinances the way he said to do them, not innovate on things or think it’s okay to innovate because the institution said they can innovate.
He also recommends renewing or refreshing it prior to performing ordinances like Alma does before he starts baptizing at the waters of Mormon.

[fractal_light_harvest]

Yes, he likened it to John the Baptist wresting the keys.
He’s a lawyer, so it’s a bit of a legal thing, probably.
And there is D&C 121 that explains when priesthood is taken away.
Also Moses and the higher priesthood being taken away from the children of Israel, leaving them with the Aaronic priesthood only.

So now authority would be with him or with people within his group because he wrested the authority or possibly whatever the keys are? Do you know if he or that group believes only people in the group can have authority or if those outside it can as well?

Like I said, people who were legitimately ordained prior to 2014 would still have valid priesthood authority if they didn’t do something to have it taken away.
But they need to follow Christ’s instructions and do the ordinances the way he said to do them, not innovate on things or think it’s okay to innovate because the institution said they can innovate.
He also recommends renewing or refreshing it prior to performing ordinances like Alma does before he starts baptizing at the waters of Mormon.

Ahh! I didn’t realize this distinction even though you said it earlier. Thank you for pointing it out. So as long as they don’t innovate or change things they shouldn’t then pre-2014 LDS members could have priesthood.
That then makes me question if they need approval from the church leadership to do ordinances or not since the uppermost leadership does *not* have priesthood. But that may be getting too technical tbh.
So then based on what you said I believe that that group sees it as they have priesthood power but also some LDS members have it too. Do they say if members who were part of a break off group like a fundamentalist group have it too? (Again I am being very technical but i la a technical/numbers person so okay if it’s too much to answer on this thread)

[Wolfwoman]

So now authority would be with him or with people within his group because he wrested the authority or possibly whatever the keys are? Do you know if he or that group believes only people in the group can have authority or if those outside it can as well?

Like I said, people who were legitimately ordained prior to 2014 would still have valid priesthood authority if they didn’t do something to have it taken away.
But they need to follow Christ’s instructions and do the ordinances the way he said to do them, not innovate on things or think it’s okay to innovate because the institution said they can innovate.
He also recommends renewing or refreshing it prior to performing ordinances like Alma does before he starts baptizing at the waters of Mormon.

Ahh! I didn’t realize this distinction even though you said it earlier. Thank you for pointing it out. So as long as they don’t innovate or change things they shouldn’t then pre-2014 LDS members could have priesthood.
That then makes me question if they need approval from the church leadership to do ordinances or not since the uppermost leadership does *not* have priesthood. But that may be getting too technical tbh.
So then based on what you said I believe that that group sees it as they have priesthood power but also some LDS members have it too. Do they say if members who were part of a break off group like a fundamentalist group have it too? (Again I am being very technical but i la a technical/numbers person so okay if it’s too much to answer on this thread)

My opinion is that they don’t need approval from leadership to perform ordinances, especially the only ordinances they are probably authorized to do, which is to bless and administer the sacrament and to baptize (Aaronic priesthood ordinances).

I had the same question about whether the RLDS or any other break off sects would have valid priesthood. Denver Snuffer came from the LDS church, so he didn’t really address the other sects. I could be wrong, but I think the consensus was that if they could trace their priesthood lineage back to Joseph Smith/Oliver Cowdery/Jesus Christ then the group would recognize their ordination. All prior to 2014, I think.