Does the LDS church have valid ordinances?

[ransomme]

I know what you’re saying, but it’s bit more nuanced than that.

Yes, the power to seal up to eternal life is the highest power within the Melchizedek Priesthood, and that was first restored to the Saints in June 1831 at the Morley Farm, within the office of High Priest. But as time went on, the offices of Elder, Patriarch, Seventy, Twelve Apostle were all given that power as part of their particular office.

Why would God do that? You are saying that the office of Elder, which is not part of the Melchizedek priesthood, was given the higher authority anyways?
Joseph mentioned 3 priesthoods: Aaronic, Patriarchal, and Melchizedek. We are under the Patriarchal currently.

To me it doesn't make sense to have any distinction if the distinction can just be arbitrarily crossed. Could God extend the sealing power to the Aaronic priesthood?

I think the "sealing power" is only given to those who have become firstborn. This probably includes many unknowns and some notables ones from the scriptures such as Enoch & his people, Melchizedek & his people, Moses, Elijah, Nephi son of Helaman, John the beloved, the 144k and others.

I think it's only bestowed by direct manifestation such as from God face to face, by his audible voice, or by an authorized angel.

For example:
Helaman 10
3And it came to pass as he was thus pondering—being much cast down because of the wickedness of the people of the Nephites, their secret works of darkness, and their murderings, and their plunderings, and all manner of iniquities—and it came to pass as he was thus pondering in his heart, behold, a voice came unto him saying:
4Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments.
5And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.
6Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.
7Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.
8And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done.
9And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done.
10And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass.

[fractal_light_harvest]

I know what you’re saying, but it’s bit more nuanced than that.

Yes, the power to seal up to eternal life is the highest power within the Melchizedek Priesthood, and that was first restored to the Saints in June 1831 at the Morley Farm, within the office of High Priest. But as time went on, the offices of Elder, Patriarch, Seventy, Twelve Apostle were all given that power as part of their particular office.

Why would God do that? You are saying that the office of Elder, which is not part of the Melchizedek priesthood, was given the higher authority anyways?
Joseph mentioned 3 priesthoods: Aaronic, Patriarchal, and Melchizedek. We are under the Patriarchal currently.

To me it doesn't make sense to have any distinction if the distinction can just be arbitrarily crossed. Could God extend the sealing power to the Aaronic priesthood?

I think the "sealing power" is only given to those who have become firstborn. This probably includes many unknowns and some notables ones from the scriptures such as Enoch & his people, Melchizedek & his people, Moses, Elijah, Nephi son of Helaman, John the beloved, the 144k and others.

I think it's only bestowed by direct manifestation such as from God face to face, by his audible voice, or by an authorized angel.

For example:
Helaman 10
3And it came to pass as he was thus pondering—being much cast down because of the wickedness of the people of the Nephites, their secret works of darkness, and their murderings, and their plunderings, and all manner of iniquities—and it came to pass as he was thus pondering in his heart, behold, a voice came unto him saying:
4Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments.
5And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.
6Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.
7Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.
8And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done.
9And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done.
10And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass.

I believe that these verses are probably very meaningful and important based on my understanding of other passages. I don’t yet have the full context of understanding to be able to fully assimilate them *personally* into how I organize the gospel in my personal mind is my belief. In a way I believe that this event could be seen as an “ordinance” and I believe it is personally and suggests that Nephi held *significant* power in the priesthood. I see it as a ”private” ordinance personally. Maybe in my mind I see it as Nephi being given power *over* these people but not *among* them even though I believe this same Nephi was given power to baptize by Christ?

[Telavian]

I think the "sealing power" is only given to those who have become firstborn. This probably includes many unknowns and some notables ones from the scriptures such as Enoch & his people, Melchizedek & his people, Moses, Elijah, Nephi son of Helaman, John the beloved, the 144k and others.

I think it's only bestowed by direct manifestation such as from God face to face, by his audible voice, or by an authorized angel.

Yes the sealing power is the highest authority man can posses. It is the authority to declare something and have it be binding.
This certainly is not a trivial thing.

Being sealing unto eternal life is similar however distinctly different. I don't think anyone can ever honestly be sealed to eternal life anyways. Presumably at some point Lucifer was "sealed" to God however he decided that it was no longer worth it. Therefore, he is no longer sealed and has fallen. We never have any kind of unconditional guarantee.

[Telavian]

I believe that these verses are probably very meaningful and important based on my understanding of other passages. I don’t yet have the full context of understanding to be able to fully assimilate them *personally* into how I organize the gospel in my personal mind is my belief. In a way I believe that this event could be seen as an “ordinance” and I believe it is personally and suggests that Nephi held *significant* power in the priesthood. I see it as a ”private” ordinance personally. Maybe in my mind I see it as Nephi being given power *over* these people but not *among* them even though I believe this same Nephi was given power to baptize by Christ?

Our entire view of the Priesthood is warped. We give it to anyone that basically come to church and doesn't do anything egregious. However, in the scriptures it was only reserved for the most righteous individuals.

[fractal_light_harvest]

I believe that these verses are probably very meaningful and important based on my understanding of other passages. I don’t yet have the full context of understanding to be able to fully assimilate them *personally* into how I organize the gospel in my personal mind is my belief. In a way I believe that this event could be seen as an “ordinance” and I believe it is personally and suggests that Nephi held *significant* power in the priesthood. I see it as a ”private” ordinance personally. Maybe in my mind I see it as Nephi being given power *over* these people but not *among* them even though I believe this same Nephi was given power to baptize by Christ?

Our entire view of the Priesthood is warped. We give it to anyone that basically come to church and doesn't do anything egregious. However, in the scriptures it was only reserved for the most righteous individuals.

I believe this is almost certainly true. We, like most churches (I’m exMo so idk if “we” is correct here) are very focused on outward displays of priesthood but don’t focus much effort inward. So I theorize lds priesthood is “hollow”. It looks nice on the outside like a pretty face (or a sea of white shirts) but inward there is not *much* going on. There are endless public displays but eventually they can’t hide that there is very little *power*.

[Luke]

I can read it. I guess a person's view depends on their thoughts about the Nauvoo period.
I can't understand why God would give them higher and holier things in Nauvoo when they clearly rejected the lesser things in Kirtland.

I personally don't buy this argument. Yes, a large portion of the Saints were rebellious -- as in all ages of the world -- but there were some very faithful Saints. It reminds me of Abraham asking God "if I can find 10 faithful people in this city, will you spare it?"

[Luke]

I think the "sealing power" is only given to those who have become firstborn. This probably includes many unknowns and some notables ones from the scriptures such as Enoch & his people, Melchizedek & his people, Moses, Elijah, Nephi son of Helaman, John the beloved, the 144k and others.

I think it's only bestowed by direct manifestation such as from God face to face, by his audible voice, or by an authorized angel.

Yes the sealing power is the highest authority man can posses. It is the authority to declare something and have it be binding.
This certainly is not a trivial thing.

Being sealing unto eternal life is similar however distinctly different. I don't think anyone can ever honestly be sealed to eternal life anyways. Presumably at some point Lucifer was "sealed" to God however he decided that it was no longer worth it. Therefore, he is no longer sealed and has fallen. We never have any kind of unconditional guarantee.

There's different types of sealing power.

[fractal_light_harvest]

Quick update. The poll is just shy of 70 people. I believe this could be about all the votes likely to be cast. Right now the poll is as follows

• People who believe the church has always been able to perform valid ordinances and has the exclusive right — 29%

• People who believe the church lost valid ordinances or never had the right — 38%

• People who believe the church lost it but will regain it — 9%

• People who believe the church shares power/authority for valid ordinances with other groups, churches and so on — 9%

• People who don’t know — 13%

• People who don’t care — 1%

If you add the 9% of people who believe the church will regain it plus the 9% who believe the church shares it to those who believe it’s the church’s exclusive right then there are more people who believe the church *can* or will be able to perform valid ordinances than not on this site. However there are more people who believe that *currently* the church *cannot* perform valid ordinances than do on this site. I’m not sure if almost 70 votes is a good sample size or not but it may be.

The highest single category was a tie between those who believe the church never had valid ordinances and those who believe it still has valid ordinances but is currently out of order.

[Nevervaxxed]

Honestly,I dont mind attending the temple. Its calm and relaxing...so is fishing. The ordinances seem soooooo silly and ridiculous though. Think about it from an outsiders perspective. If you think that somehow God requires these things to enter heaven then I dont know what to tell you.

That's exactly what my wife says! And it has bothered her since we got married it the temply 40 plus years ago... She thinks the whole thing is rediculous, and was really upset that everyone attending the temple on a given day is given the same name...

[Luke]

Why would God do that? You are saying that the office of Elder, which is not part of the Melchizedek priesthood, was given the higher authority anyways?

First of all — it was definitely the (lower order of) Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James, and John. We have Oliver Cowdery’s witness to that:

• “I was present with Joseph when an holy angel from God came down from heaven and conferred on us or restored the lesser or Aaronic Priesthood, and said to us, at the same time, that it should remain upon the earth while the earth stands. I was also present with Joseph when the higher or Melchisedek Priesthood was conferred by the holy angels of God from on high. This Priesthood was then conferred on each other, by the will and commandment of God. This Priesthood, as was then declared, is also to remain upon the earth until the last remnant of time.” — Oliver Cowdery (Reuben Miller Journal, 21 October 1848, CHL)

• “John the Baptist, holding the keys of the Aaronic Priesthood; Peter, James and John holding the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood, have also ministered for those who shall be heirs of salvation, and with these ministrations ordained men to the same Priesthoods.” — Oliver Cowdery (Oliver Cowdery letter to Samuel W. Richards, 13 January 1849, in Deseret Evening News, 22 March 1884, page 2)

This Priesthood was fully restored in June 1831 at Isaac Morley’s farm, when men were ordained High Priests and were thus given the sealing power — hence it was referred to as the Melchizedek Priesthood, as they held the full power of that Priesthood.

But it seems to me to be a possibility (though I’m not nailing a flag to the mast on this one, as the waters are quite muddy where all these offices in the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood are concerned) that this limitation of the sealing power to the High Priests alone was only done by Joseph Smith to slowly introduce the power to seal up to eternal life among the Saints, and not just give it out to everyone. As I stated — just look at patriarchal blessings given by Patriarchs in the 1840s alone — so many people were sealed up to eternal life by those holding the office of Patriarch.

The Elders, apparently, were also given this authority. William Clayton notes in his 16 February 1874 affidavit:

• “On the 1st day of May, 1843, I officiated in the office of an Elder by marrying Lucy Walker to the Prophet Joseph Smith, at his own residence.”

One of the most explicit statements comes from Joseph Smith, who seems to say in this statement that High Priests, Seventies, etc. are all just offices within the Melchizedek Priesthood, with the same power, but not the same primary responsibilities (which idea of a separation of responsibilities the D&C supports):

• “A High Priest is a member of the same Melchizedek Priesthood with the Presidency, but not of the same power or authority in the Church. The Seventies are also members of the same Priesthood, [i.e., the High Priesthood], are a sort of traveling council or Priesthood, and may preside over a church or churches, until a High Priest can be had. The Seventies are to be taken from the quorum of Elders, and are not to be High Priests. They are subject to the direction and dictation of the Twelve, who have the keys of the ministry.” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <6 April 1837> page 112, brackets in original)

Joseph mentioned 3 priesthoods: Aaronic, Patriarchal, and Melchizedek. We are under the Patriarchal currently.

As for this…

I do believe we are under the Patriarchal Priesthood — though not for the reasons you think. I believe that the Patriarchal Priesthood is the highest order of Priesthood (that can be given from one man to another).

I apologise for linking so many posts, but if you read some of the things I’ve written lately, it saves me from having to copy and paste it all. I explain HERE that the Patriarchal Priesthood is clearly the highest Priesthood which can be given from one man to another. I explain HERE that this Priesthood is the higher order of the Melchizedek Priesthood — as opposed to the lower order which I spoke of above.

Back to the Three Grand Orders speech. Joseph speaks of three grand orders: Aaronic, Patriarchal, and Melchizedek.

There are two orders of the Aaronic Priesthood, and two orders of the Melchizedek Priesthood, the highest of which is called the Patriarchal Priesthood. As we’ve already seen, the term “Melchizedek Priesthood” has been used in a number of different ways, which makes things confusing.

So the lower and higher orders of the Aaronic Priesthood (together) constitutes the Aaronic Priesthood spoken of by Joseph in the Three Grand Orders speech, the lower and higher orders of the Melchizedek Priesthood (together) constitute the Patriarchal Priesthood spoken of — seeing that the higher order of the Melchizedek Priesthood is called the Patriarchal Priesthood and embraces, circumscribes, and comprehends the lower order within it. Thus, what is the Melchizedek Priesthood spoken of in the Three Grand Orders speech?

It’s important to understand that we do not have much of what Joseph said on that occasion — the sermon lasted 3 hours and 15 minutes — and we have four short reports which can be comprehensively read in around 10-20 minutes. And the amalgamation which was done for the Documentary History of the Church and also published in “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith” is absolutely terrible and misleading. Consequently, people have typically read it in a manner where they think “the Melchizedek Priesthood is above the Patriarchal Priesthood”.

Ross W. LeBaron had the same problem. He read the Three Grand Orders speech the same way which you do, and which I did — thus he thought that there was a Melchizedek Priesthood held by the Fundamentalists which was above his Patriarchal keys given to him by his father, Alma Dayer LeBaron. In 1967, he came to understand that the Patriarchal Priesthood was the highest order of Priesthood, so the Three Grand Orders speech confused him. So he took it to the Lord. Fred Collier’s account:

• “Ross never could understand this part of Joseph’s discourse. What order of Priesthood was above that order which Elijah restored [Patriarchal Priesthood/higher order of Melchizedek Priesthood]? A day or two later I saw Ross again and at long last we had his answer. That evening after I had left Ross had very earnestly approached God in prayer asking the Lord to reveal to him the answer to this question which had so long perplexed him. And God did answer his prayer. Light and Knowledge poured into his mind concerning that which he desired. The next time I saw Ross, a day or so later he told me the answer to the question. ‘The fulness of the Priesthood’ as the Order of the Messiah which Joseph mentioned in another one of his discourses. TPJS p.340 and is above the spirit and power of Elijah’ and this order of priesthood could only be received by a direct revelation from Christ upon another.” — Fred C. Collier (Research Journal of Fred C. Collier vol. 1 page 272)

Ross’ revelation is confirmed by a careful analysis of the words of Joseph Smith and the Scriptures:

As referenced here, Joseph later refers to these Three Grand Orders as the orders of Elias, Elijah, and Messiah, in his 10 March 1844 discourse:

• Order of Elias — Aaronic Priesthood (comprising the lower and higher orders of the Aaronic Priesthood)

• Order of Elijah — Patriarchal Priesthood/Fullness of Melchizedek Priesthood (comprising the lower and higher orders of the Melchizedek Priesthood)

• Order of Messiah — the Priesthood held by Melchizedek referenced in Hebrews 7

This is clear from the discourse itself:

• “The spirit of Elias is to prepare the way for a greater revelation of God, which is the Priesthood of Elias, or the Priesthood that Aaron was ordained unto.” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <10 March 1844> page 335)
  
  THIS IS THE AARONIC PRIESTHOOD

• “The spirit, power, and calling of Elijah is, that ye have power to hold the key of the revelations, ordinances, oracles, powers and endowments of the fulness of the Melchizedek Priesthood and of the kingdom of God on the earth; and to receive, obtain, and perform all the ordinances belonging to the kingdom of God, even unto the turning of the hearts of the fathers unto the children, and the hearts of the children unto the fathers, even those who are in heaven.” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <10 March 1844> page 337)
  
  THIS IS PATRIARCHAL PRIESTHOOD

• “the Spirit of Messiah is all power in Heaven and in Earth — Enthroned in the Heavens as King of Kings and Lord of Lords” — Joseph Smith (Joseph Smith sermon, 10 March 1844, Thomas Bullock Report, CHL)
  
  THIS IS THE PRIESTHOOD HELD BY MELCHIZEDEK SPOKEN OF IN HEBREWS 7 AND BY JOSEPH SMITH IN HIS THREE GRAND ORDERS SERMON

(Capitals for emphasis)

We use the term “Melchizedek Priesthood” to refer to a Priesthood that can be given from one man to another — but that is not the highest Priesthood held by the man Melchizedek — so it is easy to be confused. From the Scriptural record it is plain that Melchizedek held a Priesthood that could only be given by God, which involved him being translated and taken into Heaven (see JST/IV Genesis 14) and having power over the elements. If you read Hebrews 7, which Joseph referenced, it becomes abundantly clear that this Priesthood of Melchizedek was not an order that can be given from man to man, but was an order which could only be given by God.

• “For this Melchisedec was ordained a priest after the order of the Son of God, which order was without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life; and all those who are ordained unto this priesthood are made like unto the Son of God, abiding a priest continually.” (JST/IV Hebrews 7:3)

And I’m going to use the New Living Translation here because it makes it plain:

• “This change [in Priesthood] has been made very clear since a different priest, who is like Melchizedek, has appeared Jesus became a priest, not by meeting the physical requirement of belonging to the tribe of Levi, but by the power of a life that cannot be destroyed. And the psalmist pointed this out when he prophesied,
  ‘You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.’ . . .
  There were many priests under the old system, for death prevented them from remaining in office. But because Jesus lives forever, his priesthood lasts forever.” (NLT Hebrews 7:15-17, 23-24)

A few references from Scripture on this Priesthood:

• JST/IV Genesis 14
  25 And Melchizedek lifted up his voice and blessed Abram.
  26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child, he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
  27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained a high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
  28 It being after the order of the Son of God, which order came not by man, nor the will of man, neither by father nor mother, neither by beginning of days nor end of years, but of God.
  29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name;
  30 For God, having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself that everyone being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course,
  31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God, to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.
  32 And men having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven.
  33 And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order; therefore, he obtained peace in Salem and was called the prince of peace.
  34 And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world,
  35 And hath said, and sworn with an oath, that the heavens and the earth should come together and the sons of God should be tried so as by fire.
  36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the king of peace.

• Helaman 10
  3 And it came to pass as he was thus pondering—being much cast down because of the wickedness of the people of the Nephites, their secret works of darkness, and their murderings, and their plunderings, and all manner of iniquities—and it came to pass as he was thus pondering in his heart, behold, a voice came unto him saying:
  4 Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments.
  5 And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.
  6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.
  7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.
  8 And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done.
  9 And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done.
  10 And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass.

• Moses 8
  19 And the Lord ordained Noah after his own order, and commanded him that he should go forth and declare his Gospel unto the children of men, even as it was given unto Enoch.

[Erastothenes]

Honestly,I dont mind attending the temple. Its calm and relaxing...so is fishing. The ordinances seem soooooo silly and ridiculous though. Think about it from an outsiders perspective. If you think that somehow God requires these things to enter heaven then I dont know what to tell you.

That's exactly what my wife says! And it has bothered her since we got married it the temply 40 plus years ago... She thinks the whole thing is rediculous, and was really upset that everyone attending the temple on a given day is given the same name...

Yeah. I thought my new name was pretty cool. Inspent a fair amount of time researching and contemplating this new name...until i found out it was a boiler plate name for all guys who went thought the temple that day. Can you say lame?

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I’m not sure if they have a formal group or not. Sounds like no, but based on his books, people who believe in them would be looking for a Davidic servant to appear? He is still a Mormon I believe?

It's based on Isaiah, not Gileadi.

Okay I see. But it’s my understanding that it’s gileadi’s unique *interpretation* and translation? of Isaiah he discusses in his books I believe. Which I believe is as valid as any other more or less.

I trust Gileadi's translation and explanation more than anyone else's. Before he joined the Church, he was taught by rabbinical scholars the manner of prophesying of the Jews as is explained in 2 Ne 25:1. No other LDS scholar or leader can say that.

[Refraction75]

Ok here is my take on things...I am trying to figure things out like you...having served a mission and being sealed to my wife in the temple.

I have stopped trusting the LDS church because of they are obviously going against the scriptures.

I guess I have held tighter to the new testament and what Christ himself taught.

Here are some verses that have really stood out to me about what Christ taught and established that seems off from my LDS upbringing. It also raises questions on power and authority and ordinances that were performed.

Mathew 8

24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

(Power of the miracles is brought in by faith in Jesus Christ. This is what caused Peter to walk on water. I don't think priesthood has anything to do with it.) (So far this is my current belief)


(When Christ first called his 12 disciples these were the rules they needed to live by...)


Mathew 10

1.And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

(I believe this power they had was really faith in Jesus Christ)

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

(True disciples don't collect money/tithes for the work. The gospel and miracles performed is always was free. John the Baptist didn't get money and neither did Christ.) ( John was teaching people in the wilderness and baptizing them. John wasn't feasting on rib eye steaks in a synagogue...He was eating locusts and honey out in the wilderness for heaven sakes!)

Mathew 23

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

(I also believe this negates every religion from qualifying to be Christ's on the basis that they all collect money from their followers to get gain)

Mathew 10

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

(Church leaders during Christ's time would would make up councils and scourge his disciples. Christ is warning his disciples when he first called them. Sound familiar in the LDS church?)

Mathew 12

9. And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:

(Christ enters the church or synagogue)

10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

(Christ preached in the synagogues or churches healed a bunch of people then left into the wilderness... and the people followed him...Can you imagine this happening in an LDS congregation? The only one left would be the bishopric in the stands...now imagine if there was a paid ministry...no wonder they wanted Christ dead)


(Christ didn't preach inclusivity and peacefulness like the LDS teach.)

Mathew 10

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mathew 21

12. And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

( He cast out the money changers selling doves in the temple. You cannot buy salvation in the temple)

14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

( sore displeased...because he cut off their money revenue)

(What authority did he really give...)

Mathew 16

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(For this statement to be true from Christ there was neither an apostasy nor a restoration) (christ teaching have survived through the years....Are we talking about a physical church or a spiritual church?)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(I believe these keys are not authoritative like the Pharisees and Sadducees preached but a spiritual state of being of one self)

(Further proof of this spiritual state of being was taught by Paul)

1 Corinthians 3

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

(Paul walked with Christ why did he say this..? He wasnt talking about a physical place that saves you...the kingdom of God is for those following Christ teachings in their heart and acting on the spiritual prompting of the holy ghost to love god and your fellow man with your whole heart. Miracles are performed with faith in Christ not priesthood authority.)

(If this wasn't the case why did Christ say this...?)

Mark 9

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

(This guy is performing miracles in Christ's name but neither does Christ, nor his disciples know of him...then John is questioning if he has "authority" to do this...Christ then teaches that miracles can't happen if they don't believe/faith in Christ)

(Christ further shows how important his spiritual teachings are to men)

Mathew 16

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

(He will reward a man according to his spiritual works and faith in him)

Luke 17

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

( They were counting how many steps they took on the sabath for observance...)

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(The kingdom of God resides within you)

John 18

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

(His kingdom is a spiritual one not a physical manifistation of a building)

Mathew 21

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

(Faith is the power not the priesthood)

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

(Isn't this what you are asking who has authority?)

24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

(One thing is clear miracles follow the believers of Christ...and by their fruits you will know them...if God called a prophet)

Thank you for taking the time to give a thorough response Refraction75. I *personally* agree with most of your points or the way you interpret the scriptures you quote.

I believe that ministers should not be paid for any preaching or ordinances they perform or teaching or management that is considered *within* the church. This is an area where I believe many churches including the lds falter and should probably repent. I believe the LDS use a “loophole” to justify paying their top leaders by saying they are paying them for their administrative and business work and not for doing ordinances etc. and since they use the interest from the tithing and not the tithing itself but this stipend allows them to work for the church full time and takes care of all their needs more or less, so they are literally being supported by the church and have no need to work or have careers any longer. I personally believe this is *very* wrong and one reason the holy ghost left. I also believe they set themselves up as a light and insert themselves into creeds that members must accept to be baptized and so on which is priestcraft according to the Book of Mormon. They also use church resources and money when they travel for church business and no longer go out without taking purse or scrip and so on which Christ said *not* to do.

I agree with you that there is an overemphasis on physical buildings and physical or outward acts, churches and groups rather than on the inward. Like Moroni says “all churches have become polluted and there are very few *humble* followers of Christ” since it is always *physical* things that are the focus of the churches and these physical things are geared towards accumulating money or displaying wealth and worldly power and status, *not* primarily towards turning the heart to Christ in a humble way as a matter of principle.

I also believe like you that faith is a form of spiritual power. Priesthood is not necessary to heal or perform miracles or prophesy and so on. The gifts of the spirit are not based on priesthood but on the Holy Ghost. Children, women and men can all have angels speak to them. Angels speak by the power of the holy ghost so women and children can also do miracles and speak the words of angels and so on. This is another area where I’ve come to disagree with the LDS and believe their institutional policies and culture mistreat women doctrinally and subjugate them to their priesthood. In the LDS church women and also children are subordinate to the male only priesthood. I do *not* believe this is Christ’s way.

But one area where I believe we *may* see things differently is that I believe there is such a thing as priesthood power because of how D&C 121 reads and so on. I believe *only* some men can perform valid ordinances and women cannot do them. But I do *not* believe this makes women inferior in any way or that they need to subjugate themselves to men ideologically or doctrinally within the church solely because there are men in the same church, except in marriage where both sexes should seek to be one and serve each other (and so both are subjugated to each other in a way through marriage).

I believe faith is how one can gain priesthood power. Faith is what allows a man to gain power from Christ to enact valid ordinances is my theory right now, but that man still needs approval and *specific* power from Christ to do it, as the book of mormon shows or explains. Any person can perform a miracle though, or see a vision, or prophesy and so on as long as their faith is sufficient. But we can also see from the bible that *both* men and women can be deceived by false spirits and so on.

I appreciate your response. I could be wrong on my thoughts or interpretations. I'm open to that.

I want to ask you some questions not to be contentious or anything. I honestly want to know your perspective.

You stated that you feel there is a priesthood power.

So do you believe that Priesthood Power is passed down by the laying on of hands?

Only men can perform these acts like baptism?

Do you believe that it was restored then by Joseph Smith?

Do you believe that is called an Araronic or Melkez. Priesthood?

Do you believe there are keys to the priesthood?

Do you believe in priesthood authority as in only some men are authorized by God to use it?

You stated:

I believe faith is how one can gain priesthood power. Faith is what allows a man to gain power from Christ to enact valid ordinances is my theory....

What you said there is what I currently believe in....

I believe a righteous man doing the act of baptism is valid in Gods eyes. If the person who is receiving truly wants to follow Christ in their heart...and repent of their sins. I don't care what denomination they are from... it is valid in God's eyes.

Is that patriarchal as in only men can perform it?...I'm not sure...but it seems that way in the scriptures.

I am just wondering in my upbringing when I witnessed miracles in the priesthood. That it really wasn't just faith in Jesus that those Miracles or power of God were witnessed.

I wonder if priesthood keys or authority had really anything to do with it....?

Again

Mark 9

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Is casting out devils a priesthood authority thing or is it just a faith in Christ?

What makes you so sure there is a difference between priesthood power and faith?

What if priesthood really isn't a thing...it's just faith? That's it. What makes you feel the need to separate the two....?

[HereWeGo]

Ok it’s making sense to me I believe. I looked at some scriptures and I believe this is *one* of several possibilities. I am still unclear about one mighty and strong or how the church would be set in order if it is out of order right now (which I believe it is), so I am currently favoring this theory but I will need to study, pray, so on. And validate if snuffer truly did wrest the keys or anything like that. Thank you for your answers!

The Davidic Servant will set in order what has has been messed up by the out of order LDS Church. I don't think it says the church will be set in order. I believe the church will NOT be set in order but will continue on in its out of order state. The Servant will correct the bad doctrines and give what the Lord would have happen from this point on. It will be outside of the LDS Church.

Okay I see. The servant will do something *outside* the formal lds organization then in your understanding. How do we know that it will be outside the organization though?

The LDS church is not open to change. They believe they are doing everything correct and that they cannot lead you astray. In order to get to any level where change can take place, you have to be 100% church broke--follow the prophet at all costs. If someone at a lower level is called to be the Davidic Servant, he will be excommunicated for going against the prophet. I think this has already happened.

[Refraction75]

The church wants nothing more than to make you subject to its authority. It used to be kind of benign, but since COVID, it's flat-out fraud. So, it doesn't matter, anymore. Just seek Jesus. He is all that will matter because He is the truth, not some NWO church.

So any power would come straight from Jesus then in your understanding?

John 15:16 We don’t choose him - he chooses his servants and ordains them and then those servants have authority to choose and ordain others.

This is how it was in the New Testament Church and this is how it is in the restored Church. Apostates have to reject this doctrine otherwise they would have to admit they have no authority and no power.

I agree!!! This is how I understand it to be as well.

[Refraction75]

John 15

16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

[Socratic]

I studied religions and religious history as a young adult - read the Torah, the Bible, the Quran from cover to cover, the Buddhist scriptures, etc. - and made the decision to convert to Orthodox Christianity at 22. It shares a supriring number of things with LDS faith: male priesthood, blessing with oil, confidential confession, full immersion baptism, ordinations (deacon, priest, bishop), etc.

[fractal_light_harvest]

It's based on Isaiah, not Gileadi.

Okay I see. But it’s my understanding that it’s gileadi’s unique *interpretation* and translation? of Isaiah he discusses in his books I believe. Which I believe is as valid as any other more or less.

I trust Gileadi's translation and explanation more than anyone else's. Before he joined the Church, he was taught by rabbinical scholars the manner of prophesying of the Jews as is explained in 2 Ne 25:1. No other LDS scholar or leader can say that.

I agree personally. It's probably the most comprehensive translation of Isaiah available right now that I know about.

[fractal_light_harvest]

The Davidic Servant will set in order what has has been messed up by the out of order LDS Church. I don't think it says the church will be set in order. I believe the church will NOT be set in order but will continue on in its out of order state. The Servant will correct the bad doctrines and give what the Lord would have happen from this point on. It will be outside of the LDS Church.

Okay I see. The servant will do something *outside* the formal lds organization then in your understanding. How do we know that it will be outside the organization though?

The LDS church is not open to change. They believe they are doing everything correct and that they cannot lead you astray. In order to get to any level where change can take place, you have to be 100% church broke--follow the prophet at all costs. If someone at a lower level is called to be the Davidic Servant, he will be excommunicated for going against the prophet. I think this has already happened.

I believe this is true, the part about having to be 100% church broke. The organization has become an end in itself to my view so that "righteousness" is defined as defending the org at all costs and protecting its interests, no matter what. Most of its interests at this point are financial and social, not purely spiritual so they are not an actual church in the way the new testament speaks of churches I believe.

[fractal_light_harvest]

Ok here is my take on things...I am trying to figure things out like you...having served a mission and being sealed to my wife in the temple.

I have stopped trusting the LDS church because of they are obviously going against the scriptures.

I guess I have held tighter to the new testament and what Christ himself taught.

Here are some verses that have really stood out to me about what Christ taught and established that seems off from my LDS upbringing. It also raises questions on power and authority and ordinances that were performed.

Mathew 8

24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

(Power of the miracles is brought in by faith in Jesus Christ. This is what caused Peter to walk on water. I don't think priesthood has anything to do with it.) (So far this is my current belief)


(When Christ first called his 12 disciples these were the rules they needed to live by...)


Mathew 10

1.And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

(I believe this power they had was really faith in Jesus Christ)

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

(True disciples don't collect money/tithes for the work. The gospel and miracles performed is always was free. John the Baptist didn't get money and neither did Christ.) ( John was teaching people in the wilderness and baptizing them. John wasn't feasting on rib eye steaks in a synagogue...He was eating locusts and honey out in the wilderness for heaven sakes!)

Mathew 23

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

(I also believe this negates every religion from qualifying to be Christ's on the basis that they all collect money from their followers to get gain)

Mathew 10

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

(Church leaders during Christ's time would would make up councils and scourge his disciples. Christ is warning his disciples when he first called them. Sound familiar in the LDS church?)

Mathew 12

9. And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:

(Christ enters the church or synagogue)

10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

(Christ preached in the synagogues or churches healed a bunch of people then left into the wilderness... and the people followed him...Can you imagine this happening in an LDS congregation? The only one left would be the bishopric in the stands...now imagine if there was a paid ministry...no wonder they wanted Christ dead)


(Christ didn't preach inclusivity and peacefulness like the LDS teach.)

Mathew 10

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mathew 21

12. And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

( He cast out the money changers selling doves in the temple. You cannot buy salvation in the temple)

14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

( sore displeased...because he cut off their money revenue)

(What authority did he really give...)

Mathew 16

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(For this statement to be true from Christ there was neither an apostasy nor a restoration) (christ teaching have survived through the years....Are we talking about a physical church or a spiritual church?)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(I believe these keys are not authoritative like the Pharisees and Sadducees preached but a spiritual state of being of one self)

(Further proof of this spiritual state of being was taught by Paul)

1 Corinthians 3

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

(Paul walked with Christ why did he say this..? He wasnt talking about a physical place that saves you...the kingdom of God is for those following Christ teachings in their heart and acting on the spiritual prompting of the holy ghost to love god and your fellow man with your whole heart. Miracles are performed with faith in Christ not priesthood authority.)

(If this wasn't the case why did Christ say this...?)

Mark 9

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

(This guy is performing miracles in Christ's name but neither does Christ, nor his disciples know of him...then John is questioning if he has "authority" to do this...Christ then teaches that miracles can't happen if they don't believe/faith in Christ)

(Christ further shows how important his spiritual teachings are to men)

Mathew 16

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

(He will reward a man according to his spiritual works and faith in him)

Luke 17

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

( They were counting how many steps they took on the sabath for observance...)

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(The kingdom of God resides within you)

John 18

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

(His kingdom is a spiritual one not a physical manifistation of a building)

Mathew 21

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

(Faith is the power not the priesthood)

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

(Isn't this what you are asking who has authority?)

24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

(One thing is clear miracles follow the believers of Christ...and by their fruits you will know them...if God called a prophet)

Thank you for taking the time to give a thorough response Refraction75. I *personally* agree with most of your points or the way you interpret the scriptures you quote.

I believe that ministers should not be paid for any preaching or ordinances they perform or teaching or management that is considered *within* the church. This is an area where I believe many churches including the lds falter and should probably repent. I believe the LDS use a “loophole” to justify paying their top leaders by saying they are paying them for their administrative and business work and not for doing ordinances etc. and since they use the interest from the tithing and not the tithing itself but this stipend allows them to work for the church full time and takes care of all their needs more or less, so they are literally being supported by the church and have no need to work or have careers any longer. I personally believe this is *very* wrong and one reason the holy ghost left. I also believe they set themselves up as a light and insert themselves into creeds that members must accept to be baptized and so on which is priestcraft according to the Book of Mormon. They also use church resources and money when they travel for church business and no longer go out without taking purse or scrip and so on which Christ said *not* to do.

I agree with you that there is an overemphasis on physical buildings and physical or outward acts, churches and groups rather than on the inward. Like Moroni says “all churches have become polluted and there are very few *humble* followers of Christ” since it is always *physical* things that are the focus of the churches and these physical things are geared towards accumulating money or displaying wealth and worldly power and status, *not* primarily towards turning the heart to Christ in a humble way as a matter of principle.

I also believe like you that faith is a form of spiritual power. Priesthood is not necessary to heal or perform miracles or prophesy and so on. The gifts of the spirit are not based on priesthood but on the Holy Ghost. Children, women and men can all have angels speak to them. Angels speak by the power of the holy ghost so women and children can also do miracles and speak the words of angels and so on. This is another area where I’ve come to disagree with the LDS and believe their institutional policies and culture mistreat women doctrinally and subjugate them to their priesthood. In the LDS church women and also children are subordinate to the male only priesthood. I do *not* believe this is Christ’s way.

But one area where I believe we *may* see things differently is that I believe there is such a thing as priesthood power because of how D&C 121 reads and so on. I believe *only* some men can perform valid ordinances and women cannot do them. But I do *not* believe this makes women inferior in any way or that they need to subjugate themselves to men ideologically or doctrinally within the church solely because there are men in the same church, except in marriage where both sexes should seek to be one and serve each other (and so both are subjugated to each other in a way through marriage).

I believe faith is how one can gain priesthood power. Faith is what allows a man to gain power from Christ to enact valid ordinances is my theory right now, but that man still needs approval and *specific* power from Christ to do it, as the book of mormon shows or explains. Any person can perform a miracle though, or see a vision, or prophesy and so on as long as their faith is sufficient. But we can also see from the bible that *both* men and women can be deceived by false spirits and so on.

I appreciate your response. I could be wrong on my thoughts or interpretations. I'm open to that.

I want to ask you some questions not to be contentious or anything. I honestly want to know your perspective.

You stated that you feel there is a priesthood power.

So do you believe that Priesthood Power is passed down by the laying on of hands?

Only men can perform these acts like baptism?

Do you believe that it was restored then by Joseph Smith?

Do you believe that is called an Araronic or Melkez. Priesthood?

Do you believe there are keys to the priesthood?

Do you believe in priesthood authority as in only some men are authorized by God to use it?

You stated:

I believe faith is how one can gain priesthood power. Faith is what allows a man to gain power from Christ to enact valid ordinances is my theory....

What you said there is what I currently believe in....

I believe a righteous man doing the act of baptism is valid in Gods eyes. If the person who is receiving truly wants to follow Christ in their heart...and repent of their sins. I don't care what denomination they are from... it is valid in God's eyes.

Is that patriarchal as in only men can perform it?...I'm not sure...but it seems that way in the scriptures.

I am just wondering in my upbringing when I witnessed miracles in the priesthood. That it really wasn't just faith in Jesus that those Miracles or power of God were witnessed.

I wonder if priesthood keys or authority had really anything to do with it....?

Again

Mark 9

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Is casting out devils a priesthood authority thing or is it just a faith in Christ?

What makes you so sure there is a difference between priesthood power and faith?

What if priesthood really isn't a thing...it's just faith? That's it. What makes you feel the need to separate the two....?

Thank you for the thoughtful response Refraction75 and the questions and the respectful push back and offering of differing views. I believe it is healthy and makes a more robust and honest discussion in most cases.

You stated that you feel there is a priesthood power.

So do you believe that Priesthood Power is passed down by the laying on of hands?

I do not believe if I had to say that it must be passed down no matter what by laying on of hands but if God chose to pass it down like this in a certain setting or set things up like this *personally* then it can be done like this in some instances if god feels its appropriate or necessary. I think there is atleast ok evidence to show he sometimes chooses to use this method.

Only men can perform these acts like baptism?

I believe only men can perform baptism if you want to perform it in a way that is true to the example set by the bible and book of mormon. Christ called 12 disciples in nephi 3 and gave them power to baptize and they are all men according to my reading. This shows Christ gives or is willing to give men power to baptize others. I do not know about or can't think of any example in scriptures where women baptize or were given power to do this specific ordinance, so someone could speculate they could but there is nothing in the scriptures to show this *for sure*. I believe this is also the case for the sacrament. Outside of this I am somewhat agnostic about it. I do *not* believe this makes women inferior in *any way*. So this "priesthood" only applies to these ordinances, it does not mean women can never hold priesthood or priestesshood if you like for other scenarios *necessarily*.

Do you believe that it was restored then by Joseph Smith?

Do you believe that is called an Araronic or Melkez. Priesthood?

I believe Joseph almost certainly had power from god that could be described as "priesthood" yes.
I do not believe the name matters much as long as its understood it comes from god and he controls it.

Do you believe there are keys to the priesthood?

I am not sure what you mean by keys exactly tbh but there are probably degrees to it, or it *can* be broken into degrees if God wants to do this. I believe the ancient Jews held a form of priesthood which the lds call aaronic yes. This is probably about as good a name as any as far as I know about it. if there are direct descendants of these jews still around then they would hold this priesthood too is my current understanding.

Do you believe in priesthood authority as in only some men are authorized by God to use it?

I believe god controls all priesthood or all priesthood comes from him so in some way or another he would have to approve its use is my current understanding.

I believe a righteous man doing the act of baptism is valid in Gods eyes. If the person who is receiving truly wants to follow Christ in their heart...and repent of their sins. I don't care what denomination they are from... it is valid in God's eyes.

Is that patriarchal as in only men can perform it?...I'm not sure...but it seems that way in the scriptures.

I am just wondering in my upbringing when I witnessed miracles in the priesthood. That it really wasn't just faith in Jesus that those Miracles or power of God were witnessed.

I wonder if priesthood keys or authority had really anything to do with it....?.

Yes this is also my understanding for right now. I believe it's accurate and agree with you. I think faith is the most important part of any ordinance *personally*. My personal belief is that a miracle *could* happen due to priesthood power being made manifest or a person without formal priethood could have faith during the execution of an ordinance which could cause a miracle to happen right after or simultaneously as long as the miracle didn't contradict a true priesthood ordinance.

Mark 9

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Is casting out devils a priesthood authority thing or is it just a faith in Christ?

This is one of my favorite new testament scriptures. Thank yoi for bringing it up. Christ did give power to cast out devils to some of his disciples which I believe were all men in the case were *he sent them out* so it can be associated with priesthood power but I do not know that it necessarily has to be or can only be done by men or not. It would not bother me *personally* if a woman attempted to do this or was successful at it. It would not bother me *personally* if a woman attempted to baptize either as in I would not be offended or anything but I would not accept this myself becasue of the scriptures I mentioned before. But this is not because I do not like women. I actually enjoy women and think they bring alot to the table in many ways and are an obviously indispensable part of gods plan and priesthood.

What makes you so sure there is a difference between priesthood power and faith?

What if priesthood really isn't a thing...it's just faith? That's it. What makes you feel the need to separate the two....?

I believe the two are very closely related and that priesthood is essentially a more specific form or expression of faith.

The reason I believe it is a thing is due to some scriptures and because of how things are described when Christ performs ordinances. Some examples read

Hebrews 7:11
Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:14
For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.

Hebrews 5:10
being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:12-13
For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

1 Peter 2:5
you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

and so on. But i also believe there is an overemphasis on an incorrect understanding and application of this priesthood in the lds tradition and some others and the primary reason for this is to give men ultimate "veto" power and ultimate control of the org in order to make the church organization more financially profitable and streamlined and more male "oriented".

[fractal_light_harvest]

I studied religions and religious history as a young adult - read the Torah, the Bible, the Quran from cover to cover, the Buddhist scriptures, etc. - and made the decision to convert to Orthodox Christianity at 22. It shares a supriring number of things with LDS faith: male priesthood, blessing with oil, confidential confession, full immersion baptism, ordinations (deacon, priest, bishop), etc.

yes I agree with this. I *personally* prefer the Orthodox faith to current or mainstream Mormonism and all other formal Christian denominations I know of. I believe they are less corporate (though still are to some degree) and their doctrine is quite good though they rely too much on councils and decrees from the 1-3rd centuries or so I think but this is better than most. The main thing missing to me is the book of mormon and acceptance of Joseph as a prophet though it could be possible in some cases to believe these things and still be considered a faithful member but probably not completely orthodox. I do think you have to accept certain creeds to belong to them and be baptized but this is the case for most churches. Of the denominations I know of I tend to honestly prefer this one the best. They are also quite nice and intelligent in my experience while still maintaining some tradition without being extremist.

[BenMcCrea]

I get what you are saying but, the authority is the power. They aren't separate things.

Also there are different ordinances. Such as, perhaps baptism is valid but temple ordinances are either not valid because the authority was lost, or were never a legit thing.

Is authority power? The Lord may authorize many things, yet it is incumbent upon the faith (aka power) of a person.

I can also see this being a likely possibility too. Right now I see it as you could be authorized but have no power. But if you have power then that person must be authorized or they couldn’t have any power. That is my current theory about it.

It’s not a theory. You are doctrinally correct.

A person can have authority - they have been ordained to an office in the Priesthood - but they are insincere, unrepentant or wicked and so have no spiritual power. They have authority through their ordination and line of authority back to Peter, James and John and so they can perform recognised outward ordinances - baptisms , confirmations etc. but they can’t actually bless, heal , call down the powers of heaven, perform miracles etc. Nobody has any spiritual power unless they are cleansed from iniquity. 3 Nephi 8:1 We make ourselves instruments in the hands of the Lord by being holy and then he can demonstrate his power through us.

A person can be righteous but have no Priesthood authority and so nothing that they do is recognised by heaven even though they might have faith and are obedient as far as they can be.

We can only go on outward signs. I can know whether a person has been correctly ordained and has authority but I can only hope that they are sincere and have true spiritual power. I won’t actually know that and can only suspect either way.

[ransomme]

During ancient times how did it work?

Were the Levites in charge?

Did the Levites just officiate ordinances?

Who ran the synagogues?

Were the prophets Levites?

[Luke]

I can also see this being a likely possibility too. Right now I see it as you could be authorized but have no power. But if you have power then that person must be authorized or they couldn’t have any power. That is my current theory about it.

“That he [i.e. Adam] received revelations, commandments and ordinances at the beginning is beyond the power of controversy; else how did they begin to offer sacrifices to God in an acceptable manner? And if they offered sacrifices they must be authorized by ordination. . . . The power, glory and blessings of the Priesthood could not continue with those who received ordination only as their righteousness continued; for Cain also being authorized to offer sacrifice, but not offering it in righteousness, was cursed. It signifies, then, that the ordinances must be kept in the very way God has appointed; otherwise their Priesthood will prove a cursing instead of a blessing.” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <circa 5 October 1840> pages 168-169)

[Refraction75]

Luke 2

36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

( I find this account interesting here you have a woman that is considered a "prophetess"...
from the time Christ was growing up as a youth...she never left the temple...she was there day and night...all the time basically...just praying and fasting nonstop...there must have been something she prophesied with that she got right...because the people of her time considered her to be a prophetess. I also find it interesting that maybe Christ could have had some interactions with her in his youth. He taught those in the temple there... was she in attendance? Why was this woman so important that she was mentioned in the new testament? Could she have had the priesthood?)