LDS Freedom Forum

Luke wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 9:30 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 8:54 am Hmm. I didnt know about this I don’t think. I stopped studying many of the older talks since I was becoming too confused by them and I couldn’t follow what was happening.

All I know is that d&c 13 said the aaronic priesthood will not be taken from the earth until (or unless? I’m not sure) the sons of Levi make a sacrifice

Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and *this shall never be taken again from the earth*, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. d&c 13

And also something in the joseph smith papers mentioned something similar? This is all I’m aware of right now. Do you believe the Melchizedek priesthood can also never be taken from the earth?

Yes, as per Oliver Cowdery:

• “I was present with Joseph when an holy angel from God came down from heaven and conferred on us or restored the lesser or Aaronic Priesthood, and said to us, at the same time, that it should remain upon the earth while the earth stands. I was also present with Joseph when the higher or Melchisedek Priesthood was conferred by the holy angels of God from on high. This Priesthood was then conferred on each other, by the will and commandment of God. This Priesthood, as was then declared, is also to remain upon the earth until the last remnant of time.” — Oliver Cowdery (Reuben Miller Journal, 21 October 1848, CHL)

Oliver was talking here about the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James, and John, not the higher order or Fullness of the Priesthood restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah in the Kirtland Temple. But Joseph publicly declared that it was his intention to see this Priesthood established in the earth forever:

• “My feelings at the present time are that, inasmuch as the Lord Almighty has preserved me until today, He will continue to preserve me, by the united faith and prayers of the Saints, until I have fully accomplished my mission in this life, and so firmly established the dispensation of the fullness of the priesthood in the last days, that all the powers of earth and hell can never prevail against it.“ — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <31 August 1842> page 258)

Niemand wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 3:34 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 3:28 am Having served as a bishop for the best part of 8 years, I can honestly say I would never pay fast offering to the church. The funds are not used wisely. Paying someone's mobile phone bill etc is not what these donations should be used for.

I know the principles underpinning the welfare fund are laudable, but it never works properly.

So I started a bishops store cupboard in my ward. I asked members to donate at least some of their fast offering in kind. Cans of beans, fruit etc, pasta, rice and so on.
When someone came to me for help with the phone or electic/gas/water bill etc, I would invite them to take food from the store cupboard in my office, and then budget to use the money saved by not having to buy food, to pay their bills.
Within a few weeks the wards outgoings from the welfare fund fell by 90%.

Personally, I pay my fast offering to the Salvation Army.

Let's just say a lot of our fast offerings are now going to people who are not long term members of the ward. I'm aware of members popping up from all corners of the world and disappearing as quickly. Some of them don't even attend a full meeting on a Sunday but come begging to the bishop. Some stay in Scotland less than a month but are being paid for. Others are getting the church to pay for certification for jobs such as security or the care industry so they can work to stay in the country. (Ironic since they have an essentially untraceable history in many cases, whereas someone like me would have to prove what I was doing every minute of my life.) Most (but not all) are African.

I was even asked to put up a family of several Nigerians in my home. I said no. (My home isn't big enough for a start.) Some of them are extremely troubled people for one reason and another, and create various issues that require church courts and intervention. Others are just global nomads who will be in Germany next week, and Canada next year.

There seems to be a massive push just now to move Africans into Scotland, and some of them come via the Republic of Ireland (a soft touch), or are redistributed by London. The British Government denies this but we're talking within the last year or so. A massive increase, much more noticeable than they would be in somewhere like London or Bradford. Some of these guys are so new here that I see them looking the wrong way when crossing the road or using Google Maps to find wherever they are going to. They're already getting homes quickly while locals have to wait years for one. From what I'm hearing, the church is encouraging this.

Maybe this is part of the 2030 commitments.

Luke wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 2:34 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 6:21 pm

Luke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:07 pm

Yes, but there are many groups who teach and practise polygamy — it was more to do with the details of their Priesthood doctrines, among other things.

Obviously if they weren’t teaching CPM I wouldn’t have even bothered looking at them.

I wasn't talking about celestial plural marriage, that's an LDS teaching. I was talking about Telestial earth polygamy. these doctrines are not the same. I think you mean the latter.

Duke, what are you talking about, lol.

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 3:02 pm So, I stopped completely in 2020 after 2 years of dialing it back according to the Spirit.

And others of you also stopped a few years ago.

Did we all get the memo at the same time?

I am truly curious what tithing donations look like now.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 6:26 am Do you think that a singular person holds the authority for the whole world?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 12:49 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 6:26 am Do you think that a singular person holds the authority for the whole world?

Luke, are you letting this one slide?

Luke wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 9:30 am Yes, as per Oliver Cowdery:

• “I was present with Joseph when an holy angel from God came down from heaven and conferred on us or restored the lesser or Aaronic Priesthood, and said to us, at the same time, that it should remain upon the earth while the earth stands. I was also present with Joseph when the higher or Melchisedek Priesthood was conferred by the holy angels of God from on high. This Priesthood was then conferred on each other, by the will and commandment of God. This Priesthood, as was then declared, is also to remain upon the earth until the last remnant of time.” — Oliver Cowdery (Reuben Miller Journal, 21 October 1848, CHL)

Oliver was talking here about the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James, and John, not the higher order or Fullness of the Priesthood restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah in the Kirtland Temple.

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 6:28 pm

randyps wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:56 pm The Lord blessed the church with stock market picks to profit billions because he knew the crybabys would stop paying tithing.

..on a serious note. I stopped paying in 2015, then in 2022 God said "youll be perfectly happy in the terrestial kindgom", then I said F that Im celestial material....so in 2022 Ive been a full tithe payer but I cant take the sacrament because im still pending my membership council due to breaking law of chastity from 2015-2022 but hey I got my one and only son out of it, so yeah God is good!

Wow, when I wanted to stop and prayed about it. He just told me ok, go ahead. He said he would no longer be bound my my covenants with him and if I was ok with it, then "so be it". I want my marriage eternal. So, he said "pay your tithing and keep your commitments and I am bound." I then whined about Oaks comments on where the money went. And he said. "It isn't your problem, it is mine". So, I kept paying. but, we had further discussions about what "increase" means and made an adequate settlement. I don't care what they do with it now, not my problem.

Most others here don't have any idea what it means to want to have a true eternal life with a partner, if they did they'd die before forsaking their covenants.

BS all anyone wants no other church (outside of possible LDS fundamentalists) even feel you can be a partnership and have offspring, let alone a covenant to make it possible or claim the sealing power necessary.

NOT ONE Christian faith and not the Muslims (though you can have eternal virgins there), believes in exaltation. I've pointed this out and asked for their scriptures and doctrines and they don't exist, just a concept of eternal fraternity with current family at the very best. that's not a partnership like god's!

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 1:35 pm Is no one going to ask if Luke has any potential young hotties lined up?

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 1:35 pm Is no one going to ask if Luke has any potential young hotties lined up?

Luke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 2:27 pm
I’m officially joining a Fundamentalist group (no, I won’t say which one, you’ll have to wait until I finish my “Succession” series though if you’ve been paying attention, it should be obvious) and going back to the other side of the pond.

Luke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 4:59 pm There’s three things I used to determine where the authority is:

1. That they had a solid line of succession
2. That they had revelations
3. That they were teaching correct doctrines

Luke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 2:27 pm Tithing Settlement

ישראל1 wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 12:12 pm

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 3:02 pm So, I stopped completely in 2020 after 2 years of dialing it back according to the Spirit.

And others of you also stopped a few years ago.

Did we all get the memo at the same time?

I am truly curious what tithing donations look like now.

In 2018 the spirit directed me to use tithing "for the building up of the Kingdom of God" I put 10% away in savings, and use it to build up the kingdom of God (feeding poor, clothing the poor, etc.). Whatever is left over I donate to the church. I can confidently say I am a full tithe payer!

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 10:47 am

Luke wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 2:34 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 6:21 pm

I wasn't talking about celestial plural marriage, that's an LDS teaching. I was talking about Telestial earth polygamy. these doctrines are not the same. I think you mean the latter.

Duke, what are you talking about, lol.

I'm saying that whether or not the god's have more than one wife in the celestial realm is not linked to having polygamy in this telestial fallen world. things, people, attitudes, life times, etc... are not the same.

Hence a simple statement that god accepts plural marriage only on his terms and it isn't allowed normally on the earth or today. Now if you want to go out and start marrying older women to ensure your a widower many times, ok, that seems within rules. But plural marriage isn't allowed on the west side of Atlantic, not just in the church, but all Christian churches and by all governments. Seems a stretch to say it is required in celestial to be in place in 21st century America.

Got to put things in place. God controls the rules for celestial realm. Here, he makes concessions due to our weaknesses. Conflating the two is mostly what issues I have with JS, BY, etc... in handling the plural marriage issue. And likely why Jacob was against it in his time and why god is against it today. In this telestial world anyway.

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 1:53 pm

ישראל1 wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 12:12 pm

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 3:02 pm So, I stopped completely in 2020 after 2 years of dialing it back according to the Spirit.

And others of you also stopped a few years ago.

Did we all get the memo at the same time?

I am truly curious what tithing donations look like now.

In 2018 the spirit directed me to use tithing "for the building up of the Kingdom of God" I put 10% away in savings, and use it to build up the kingdom of God (feeding poor, clothing the poor, etc.). Whatever is left over I donate to the church. I can confidently say I am a full tithe payer!

Interesting.

In 2018 the Lord directed me to pay on net instead of gross. In 2019 to pay on increase instead of net. In 2020 He told me to listen to Him and nor be afraid of man. (Like bishops at tithing settlement.) We donated to various groups or individuals as directed. But He also told me the hungry He wanted me to feed were my children and the naked He wanted me to clothe were my children. I have 8 kids.

My husband lost his job soon after and we were able to go 9 months without earthly help or a job. Miracle after miracle.

After 9 months he directed me to use some local food banks. It was hard and humbling, but He taught me that there is no giver without a receiver. I met many individuals of other faiths, and no faith, who did what Jesus said instead of just talking about what Jesus said.

This has been such a good journey to trust God and learn more about my fellowman who are true disciples of Christ.

We did have members of our ward reach out and share extra meat from the animals they had butchered. (We live in a rural area.) I don't want to pretend that there aren't disciples of Christ among the LDS, but that is individuals, not the organization.

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 2:49 pm We don’t even know if celestial is a kingdom or just a description of really good. Joseph smith may have counjured that up using sedorborughs ideas.

Luke wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 9:30 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 8:54 am Hmm. I didnt know about this I don’t think. I stopped studying many of the older talks since I was becoming too confused by them and I couldn’t follow what was happening.

All I know is that d&c 13 said the aaronic priesthood will not be taken from the earth until (or unless? I’m not sure) the sons of Levi make a sacrifice

Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and *this shall never be taken again from the earth*, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. d&c 13

And also something in the joseph smith papers mentioned something similar? This is all I’m aware of right now. Do you believe the Melchizedek priesthood can also never be taken from the earth?

Yes, as per Oliver Cowdery:

• “I was present with Joseph when an holy angel from God came down from heaven and conferred on us or restored the lesser or Aaronic Priesthood, and said to us, at the same time, that it should remain upon the earth while the earth stands. I was also present with Joseph when the higher or Melchisedek Priesthood was conferred by the holy angels of God from on high. This Priesthood was then conferred on each other, by the will and commandment of God. This Priesthood, as was then declared, is also to remain upon the earth until the last remnant of time.” — Oliver Cowdery (Reuben Miller Journal, 21 October 1848, CHL)

Oliver was talking here about the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James, and John, not the higher order or Fullness of the Priesthood restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah in the Kirtland Temple. But Joseph publicly declared that it was his intention to see this Priesthood established in the earth forever:

• “My feelings at the present time are that, inasmuch as the Lord Almighty has preserved me until today, He will continue to preserve me, by the united faith and prayers of the Saints, until I have fully accomplished my mission in this life, and so firmly established the dispensation of the fullness of the priesthood in the last days, that all the powers of earth and hell can never prevail against it.“ — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <31 August 1842> page 258)

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 10:02 am What exactly is the basis for thinking there are two forms of Melchizedek priesthood, higher and lower? You believe a higher form of this priesthood was given in the Kirtland temple then?

• “I spent the day in the upper part of the store, that is in my private office * * * in council with General James Adams, of Springfield, Patriarch Hyrum Smith, Bishops Newel K. Whitney and George Miller, and President Brigham Young and Elders Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards, instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days . . .” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <4 May 1842> page 237, asterisks in original)

• “This day I went before the Presidency and presented to them an important change in the endowment ceremony by which the robes should be placed on the left shoulder first and then changed to the right shoulder once only before entering the Terrestrial room; also that Aaronic and Melchizedek be used instead of lower order of the Melchizedek and higher order of the Aaronic.” — George F. Richards (George F. Richards Diary, 3 June 1922, CHL, in The Development of LDS Temple Worship 1846-2000 pages 185-186)

Luke wrote: ↑October 6th, 2023, 5:23 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 10:02 am What exactly is the basis for thinking there are two forms of Melchizedek priesthood, higher and lower? You believe a higher form of this priesthood was given in the Kirtland temple then?

Yes. There are two orders of the Aaronic Priesthood and two orders of the Melchizedek Priesthood, which correspond to the two Aaronic and two Melchizedek tokens.

When Joseph Smith first gave the brethren their endowments, it was understood that there were different orders of the Priesthood, up to the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood — also known as the Patriarchal Priesthood (which I talk about here):

• “I spent the day in the upper part of the store, that is in my private office * * * in council with General James Adams, of Springfield, Patriarch Hyrum Smith, Bishops Newel K. Whitney and George Miller, and President Brigham Young and Elders Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards, instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the Ancient of Days . . .” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <4 May 1842> page 237, asterisks in original)

The most explicit reference to their being a lower and higher Aaronic and a lower and higher Melchizedek Priesthood can be found in George F. Richards’ diary, who was behind the removal of this knowledge from the endowment:

• “This day I went before the Presidency and presented to them an important change in the endowment ceremony by which the robes should be placed on the left shoulder first and then changed to the right shoulder once only before entering the Terrestrial room; also that Aaronic and Melchizedek be used instead of lower order of the Melchizedek and higher order of the Aaronic.” — George F. Richards (George F. Richards Diary, 3 June 1922, CHL, in The Development of LDS Temple Worship 1846-2000 pages 185-186)

The lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood then, was what was restored by Peter, James, and John, which had power to lay on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost and seal a man up to eternal life. The higher order was restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah — see D&C 2 and 110 — which had power to perform all the ordinances of the House of the Lord, perform marriage sealings, and seal up to eternal lives.

In short, if you look at the lower and higher orders of both Priesthoods as one Priesthood, you end up with two Priesthoods — and there is then a higher Priesthood spoken of in JST/IV Genesis which can only be given by God. So you have:

1. Lower and Higher Aaronic Priesthood

2. Lower and Higher Melchizedek/Patriarchal Priesthood

3. The Priesthood which can only be given by God, that Melchizedek, Christ, etc. held

These are the three orders spoken of by Joseph Smith in his 27 August 1843 “Three Grand Orders” speech, and in his 10 March 1844 speech where he refers to them as the orders of Elias, Elijah, and Messiah.

Because Joseph refers to the highest order of the Priesthood as “the Melchizedek Priesthood” it can be easy to get confused. When Joseph was speaking of that Priesthood on 27 August 1843, he was speaking of the Priesthood that can only be given by God. He spoke of it as the Priesthood of Melchizedek because Hebrews 7, which he was referencing, made it clear that Melchizedek held this Priesthood — and that it was a Priesthood which could only be given by God.

The highest order that can be given from man to man is the Patriarchal Priesthood or higher order of the Melchizedek/Patriarchal Priesthood, as I discuss in the article I linked earlier.

I hope this makes sense.