LDS Freedom Forum

Luke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 4:59 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 3:30 pm How do you know which fundamentalist group is right?

There’s three things I used to determine where the authority is:

1. That they had a solid line of succession
2. That they had revelations
3. That they were teaching correct doctrines

With most of the Fundamentalist groups, my problems with them fell into one or more of these. There was only one group that actually fit.

It wasn’t exactly a process of elimination, though that definitely helped.

Ultimately it was the whispering of the Spirit to me that convinced me to go forward.

If I can ask, why does the line of succession matter?

But I can see why the other 2 are important.

Which group if I can ask? You believe they have authority *and* power straight from god to do the ordinances like sacrament and baptism and such?

The Lord blessed the church with stock market picks to profit billions because he knew the crybabys would stop paying tithing.

..on a serious note. I stopped paying in 2015, then in 2022 God said "youll be perfectly happy in the terrestial kindgom", then I said F that Im celestial material....so in 2022 Ive been a full tithe payer but I cant take the sacrament because im still pending my membership council due to breaking law of chastity from 2015-2022 but hey I got my one and only son out of it, so yeah God is good!

randyps wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:56 pm The Lord blessed the church with stock market picks to profit billions because he knew the crybabys would stop paying tithing.

..on a serious note. I stopped paying in 2015, then in 2022 God said "youll be perfectly happy in the terrestial kindgom", then I said F that Im celestial material....so in 2022 Ive been a full tithe payer but I cant take the sacrament because im still pending my membership council due to breaking law of chastity from 2015-2022 but hey I got my one and only son out of it, so yeah God is good!

So why did you stop paying? Just got off track or weren’t sure?

Luke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 4:52 pm

nightlight wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 4:02 pm

Luke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 2:27 pm I haven’t paid tithing to the LDS Church for a fair while now, even though I’m active in my ward and I teach Elders Quorum.

I’m officially joining a Fundamentalist group (no, I won’t say which one, you’ll have to wait until I finish my “Succession” series though if you’ve been paying attention, it should be obvious) and going back to the other side of the pond.

Anyway, back to the story… the Bishop recently announced that it’s time for Tithing Settlement… or Tithing Declaration as it’s now called. That conversation I think will be taking place within the next few months. At which point it will be impossible to deny that I’m not paying tithing — and I don’t feel to lie to him — 1. because I don’t really have a valid reason to lie except to save my membership, and 2. because I can’t really think of any good excuse as to why I wouldn’t be paying tithing.

In brief, it looks like things are coming to a head. What will happen next, I don’t know. People on here like personal stories, so I just thought I would share a snippet of mine.

What side of pond ?

Your side

Duchesne County?

Luke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:07 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:02 pm

Luke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 4:59 pm

There’s three things I used to determine where the authority is:

3. That they were teaching correct doctrines

you mean polygamy, right?

Yes, but there are many groups who teach and practise polygamy — it was more to do with the details of their Priesthood doctrines, among other things.

Obviously if they weren’t teaching CPM I wouldn’t have even bothered looking at them.

I wasn't talking about celestial plural marriage, that's an LDS teaching. I was talking about Telestial earth polygamy. these doctrines are not the same. I think you mean the latter.

randyps wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:56 pm The Lord blessed the church with stock market picks to profit billions because he knew the crybabys would stop paying tithing.

..on a serious note. I stopped paying in 2015, then in 2022 God said "youll be perfectly happy in the terrestial kindgom", then I said F that Im celestial material....so in 2022 Ive been a full tithe payer but I cant take the sacrament because im still pending my membership council due to breaking law of chastity from 2015-2022 but hey I got my one and only son out of it, so yeah God is good!

Wow, when I wanted to stop and prayed about it. He just told me ok, go ahead. He said he would no longer be bound my my covenants with him and if I was ok with it, then "so be it". I want my marriage eternal. So, he said "pay your tithing and keep your commitments and I am bound." I then whined about Oaks comments on where the money went. And he said. "It isn't your problem, it is mine". So, I kept paying. but, we had further discussions about what "increase" means and made an adequate settlement. I don't care what they do with it now, not my problem.

Most others here don't have any idea what it means to want to have a true eternal life with a partner, if they did they'd die before forsaking their covenants.

BS all anyone wants no other church (outside of possible LDS fundamentalists) even feel you can be a partnership and have offspring, let alone a covenant to make it possible or claim the sealing power necessary.

NOT ONE Christian faith and not the Muslims (though you can have eternal virgins there), believes in exaltation. I've pointed this out and asked for their scriptures and doctrines and they don't exist, just a concept of eternal fraternity with current family at the very best. that's not a partnership like god's!

The Church was wise to centralize budgeting. In the past people could support the local church. Now they are forced to support SLC if they want to donate. It’s the perfect scheme for the Corporation.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 6:04 pm

randyps wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:56 pm The Lord blessed the church with stock market picks to profit billions because he knew the crybabys would stop paying tithing.

..on a serious note. I stopped paying in 2015, then in 2022 God said "youll be perfectly happy in the terrestial kindgom", then I said F that Im celestial material....so in 2022 Ive been a full tithe payer but I cant take the sacrament because im still pending my membership council due to breaking law of chastity from 2015-2022 but hey I got my one and only son out of it, so yeah God is good!

So why did you stop paying? Just got off track or weren’t sure?

I was inactive not keeping other commandmens so I got greedy and wanted to keep the 10% for my family instead of giving it to the lord.

Reminds me of a story about our local round table fellowship of churches in the area. the question of what to do with tithes and offerings came up.

The LDS bishop there said he just sends it to Salt Lake City, he gets a receipt and the money is swept into the corporation of the President. The Catholic Father says he collects the money, takes out the expenses for last month and pretty much sends the rest to the Pope. The other local priest says that he draws a large circle on the floor and throws the money into the air and whatever lands in the circle he keeps for himself and his expenses, the rest he uses for the poor.

The evangelical priest was shaking his head. He stopped the discussion right there and ranted and raved about how little faith those with him had and how they had no right to intervene in god's ways and determine what god wanted done with his money. Eventually, when he paused, one of the other priests asked him what he did. He said I trust in the Lord. I take all the monies up to the highest level in my chapel. I bow and pray for god to enter the chapel. After I give him enough time I throw all the money up into the air and exclaim. "Lord this is all yours, take what you want. I'll keep only what you don't take". I only keep what makes it all the way down to the floor!

randyps wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 6:34 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 6:04 pm

randyps wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:56 pm The Lord blessed the church with stock market picks to profit billions because he knew the crybabys would stop paying tithing.

..on a serious note. I stopped paying in 2015, then in 2022 God said "youll be perfectly happy in the terrestial kindgom", then I said F that Im celestial material....so in 2022 Ive been a full tithe payer but I cant take the sacrament because im still pending my membership council due to breaking law of chastity from 2015-2022 but hey I got my one and only son out of it, so yeah God is good!

So why did you stop paying? Just got off track or weren’t sure?

I was inactive not keeping other commandmens so I got greedy and wanted to keep the 10% for my family instead of giving it to the lord.

I was in a similar boat but now my understanding of tithing is different than before I guess.

I have memory of only going to one tithing settlement (probably 2 decades ago) and it was with my husband. I thought it was triggered because he actually paid tithing that year.
I've been through the temple and went to the temple once last year. I am still considering if I'll pay tithing at all. Neither my bishop or stake pres seemed that concerned that I wasn't paying. They only suggested I strive to pay it. Same with wearing garments.
I'm not going to get into debates with anyone at church about anything but I respect anyone who does.

Luke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:07 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:02 pm

Luke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 4:59 pm

There’s three things I used to determine where the authority is:

3. That they were teaching correct doctrines

you mean polygamy, right?

Yes, but there are many groups who teach and practise polygamy — it was more to do with the details of their Priesthood doctrines, among other things.

Obviously if they weren’t teaching CPM I wouldn’t have even bothered looking at them.

It will be interesting if you decide to disclose which group you are joining. As I've said before, I know many plygs and I was impressed with one of the groups , ( a smaller one), but when i learned that some of their Apostles were taking all the women and single men were left in the cold, I just sighed and realized that they had fallen into the trap of men. This group is so small that when I say that there were no women left for the young men, there were practically none at all.

As a note: I had initially become interested because I became friends with one of their Apostles which had a very deep understanding of gospel principles. I was very impressed with his perspective as we would discuss deep philosophy and relativity to theology. Polygamy wasn't a defining aspect for me, it was just a part of their belief system.

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 6:21 pm

Luke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:07 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:02 pm

you mean polygamy, right?

Yes, but there are many groups who teach and practise polygamy — it was more to do with the details of their Priesthood doctrines, among other things.

Obviously if they weren’t teaching CPM I wouldn’t have even bothered looking at them.

I wasn't talking about celestial plural marriage, that's an LDS teaching. I was talking about Telestial earth polygamy. these doctrines are not the same. I think you mean the latter.

Duke, what are you talking about, lol.

Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 4:17 pm

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 3:02 pm So, I stopped completely in 2020 after 2 years of dialing it back according to the Spirit.

And others of you also stopped a few years ago.

Did we all get the memo at the same time?

I am truly curious what tithing donations look like now.

Hi JuneBug, I started to change the way I do my offerings a few years ago, too, for various reasons.

I "tithe" to the Church according to "increase", as "interest" was understood in the early church, not gross income. I'm not interested in filling the institution's coffers; but due to family circumstances, pay a minimum club dues.

I'm more interested in the spirit of the law, which is why I do the following:

• I contribute generously to fast offerings, as I know those have the most impact locally to my neighbors/ward.

• I donate to causes/needs from my savings account in an adhoc fashion (people I know or situations I become aware of that I feel prompted by the Spirit to contribute to). Sometimes it's merely with money. Sometimes my time and energy. Sometimes both.

Having served as a bishop for the best part of 8 years, I can honestly say I would never pay fast offering to the church. The funds are not used wisely. Paying someone's mobile phone bill etc is not what these donations should be used for.

I know the principles underpinning the welfare fund are laudable, but it never works properly.

So I started a bishops store cupboard in my ward. I asked members to donate at least some of their fast offering in kind. Cans of beans, fruit etc, pasta, rice and so on.
When someone came to me for help with the phone or electic/gas/water bill etc, I would invite them to take food from the store cupboard in my office, and then budget to use the money saved by not having to buy food, to pay their bills.
Within a few weeks the wards outgoings from the welfare fund fell by 90%.

Personally, I pay my fast offering to the Salvation Army.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 3:28 am Having served as a bishop for the best part of 8 years, I can honestly say I would never pay fast offering to the church. The funds are not used wisely. Paying someone's mobile phone bill etc is not what these donations should be used for.

I know the principles underpinning the welfare fund are laudable, but it never works properly.

So I started a bishops store cupboard in my ward. I asked members to donate at least some of their fast offering in kind. Cans of beans, fruit etc, pasta, rice and so on.
When someone came to me for help with the phone or electic/gas/water bill etc, I would invite them to take food from the store cupboard in my office, and then budget to use the money saved by not having to buy food, to pay their bills.
Within a few weeks the wards outgoings from the welfare fund fell by 90%.

Personally, I pay my fast offering to the Salvation Army.

Let's just say a lot of our fast offerings are now going to people who are not long term members of the ward. I'm aware of members popping up from all corners of the world and disappearing as quickly. Some of them don't even attend a full meeting on a Sunday but come begging to the bishop. Some stay in Scotland less than a month but are being paid for. Others are getting the church to pay for certification for jobs such as security or the care industry so they can work to stay in the country. (Ironic since they have an essentially untraceable history in many cases, whereas someone like me would have to prove what I was doing every minute of my life.) Most (but not all) are African.

I was even asked to put up a family of several Nigerians in my home. I said no. (My home isn't big enough for a start.) Some of them are extremely troubled people for one reason and another, and create various issues that require church courts and intervention. Others are just global nomads who will be in Germany next week, and Canada next year.

There seems to be a massive push just now to move Africans into Scotland, and some of them come via the Republic of Ireland (a soft touch), or are redistributed by London. The British Government denies this but we're talking within the last year or so. A massive increase, much more noticeable than they would be in somewhere like London or Bradford. Some of these guys are so new here that I see them looking the wrong way when crossing the road or using Google Maps to find wherever they are going to. They're already getting homes quickly while locals have to wait years for one. From what I'm hearing, the church is encouraging this.

Maybe this is part of the 2030 commitments.

randyps wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:56 pm The Lord blessed the church with stock market picks to profit billions because he knew the crybabys would stop paying tithing.

..on a serious note. I stopped paying in 2015, then in 2022 God said "youll be perfectly happy in the terrestial kindgom", then I said F that Im celestial material....so in 2022 Ive been a full tithe payer but I cant take the sacrament because im still pending my membership council due to breaking law of chastity from 2015-2022 but hey I got my one and only son out of it, so yeah God is good!

#ThinkCelestial

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:48 pm If I can ask, why does the line of succession matter?

Because Joseph Smith et al. said that the Priesthood and Kingdom were on the earth, never to be taken away. So it rules out those claiming a new dispensation, new restoration of authority for the whole world, etc.

To the OP, why would you even think that having to lie to get around an interview is a good idea? The very fact that many people are having to find loopholes to justify the behavior of the church should be a red flag.

Step back and look at what the principle is about (in this instance, tithing). What was the intended purpose? Why did the Lord implement such a practice in the first place. If any principle is being used as leverage for some other means, I’d be highly suspect of such practices.

Luke wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 6:02 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:48 pm If I can ask, why does the line of succession matter?

Because Joseph Smith et al. said that the Priesthood and Kingdom were on the earth, never to be taken away. So it rules out those claiming a new dispensation, new restoration of authority for the whole world, etc.

Are we going to pigeon hole the Lord? How many times did the Lord revoke his blessings from among the leaders of churches? Authority does is not conveyed through hands on heads. How many examples do we have in scriptures of a people falling into varying states of apostasy? King Noah and Alma couldn’t be a more stark example for us today. Just because Jospeh said the priesthood would never be taken, doesn’t mean it remain with wicked men. And, I may add, what kingdom was Joseph really talking about?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 6:05 am

Luke wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 6:02 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:48 pm If I can ask, why does the line of succession matter?

Because Joseph Smith et al. said that the Priesthood and Kingdom were on the earth, never to be taken away. So it rules out those claiming a new dispensation, new restoration of authority for the whole world, etc.

Are we going to pigeon hole the Lord? How many times did the Lord revoke his blessings from among the leaders of churches? Authority does is not conveyed through hands on heads. How many examples do we have in scriptures of a people falling into varying states of apostasy? King Noah and Alma couldn’t be a more stark example for us today. Just because Jospeh said the priesthood would never be taken, doesn’t mean it remain with wicked men. And, I may add, what kingdom was Joseph really talking about?

What are you talking about? Are you sure you understand what I'm saying?

Luke wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 6:13 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 6:05 am

Luke wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 6:02 am

Because Joseph Smith et al. said that the Priesthood and Kingdom were on the earth, never to be taken away. So it rules out those claiming a new dispensation, new restoration of authority for the whole world, etc.

Are we going to pigeon hole the Lord? How many times did the Lord revoke his blessings from among the leaders of churches? Authority does is not conveyed through hands on heads. How many examples do we have in scriptures of a people falling into varying states of apostasy? King Noah and Alma couldn’t be a more stark example for us today. Just because Jospeh said the priesthood would never be taken, doesn’t mean it remain with wicked men. And, I may add, what kingdom was Joseph really talking about?

What are you talking about? Are you sure you understand what I'm saying?

Maybe I don’t. It’s a possibility. Do you think that a singular person holds the authority for the whole world?

Luke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:02 pm

Sunain wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:00 pm

Luke wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 2:27 pm 1. because I don’t really have a valid reason to lie except to save my membership

You cannot get excommunicated for not paying tithing. The *worst* that happens is they don't renew your temple recommend.

I should have clarified — it’s the inevitable ensuing conversation which will cause problems.

What problems? You don't believe, you can still attend if excommunicated, if you wanted to... What's holding you or anyone else here on the board from being honest?

Luke wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 6:02 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 5:48 pm If I can ask, why does the line of succession matter?

Because Joseph Smith et al. said that the Priesthood and Kingdom were on the earth, never to be taken away. So it rules out those claiming a new dispensation, new restoration of authority for the whole world, etc.

Hmm. I didnt know about this I don’t think. I stopped studying many of the older talks since I was becoming too confused by them and I couldn’t follow what was happening.

All I know is that d&c 13 said the aaronic priesthood will not be taken from the earth until (or unless? I’m not sure) the sons of Levi make a sacrifice

Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and *this shall never be taken again from the earth*, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. d&c 13

And also something in the joseph smith papers mentioned something similar? This is all I’m aware of right now. Do you believe the Melchizedek priesthood can also never be taken from the earth?

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 3:28 am

Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 4:17 pm

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 3:02 pm So, I stopped completely in 2020 after 2 years of dialing it back according to the Spirit.

And others of you also stopped a few years ago.

Did we all get the memo at the same time?

I am truly curious what tithing donations look like now.

Hi JuneBug, I started to change the way I do my offerings a few years ago, too, for various reasons.

I "tithe" to the Church according to "increase", as "interest" was understood in the early church, not gross income. I'm not interested in filling the institution's coffers; but due to family circumstances, pay a minimum club dues.

I'm more interested in the spirit of the law, which is why I do the following:

• I contribute generously to fast offerings, as I know those have the most impact locally to my neighbors/ward.

• I donate to causes/needs from my savings account in an adhoc fashion (people I know or situations I become aware of that I feel prompted by the Spirit to contribute to). Sometimes it's merely with money. Sometimes my time and energy. Sometimes both.

Having served as a bishop for the best part of 8 years, I can honestly say I would never pay fast offering to the church. The funds are not used wisely. Paying someone's mobile phone bill etc is not what these donations should be used for.

I know the principles underpinning the welfare fund are laudable, but it never works properly.

So I started a bishops store cupboard in my ward. I asked members to donate at least some of their fast offering in kind. Cans of beans, fruit etc, pasta, rice and so on.
When someone came to me for help with the phone or electic/gas/water bill etc, I would invite them to take food from the store cupboard in my office, and then budget to use the money saved by not having to buy food, to pay their bills.
Within a few weeks the wards outgoings from the welfare fund fell by 90%.

Personally, I pay my fast offering to the Salvation Army.

Thanks RH, yeah, I hear ya. I served in our previous bishopric and was given responsibility over the finances, so was well-aware of where it was going. After we were released 5 years ago, I knew the incoming bishop really well and understood how they were handling them (similar to our bishopric). Our local situation had a lot of food needs here where the funds all stayed local and were having a positive impact.

In my current stake calling, I'm aware of excess fast offerings getting pushed up to the stake level where they are simply pushed up to headquarters, also see it being used to pay for fancy European car payments in the more affluent wards; so I definitely get where you're coming from.

We just had a new bishop put in our ward, so if I sense any change, maybe I'll be sending it to the Salvation Army, too... or this well-run local food/clothing/shelter coalition, where I know it will be put to good use.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 8:54 am Hmm. I didnt know about this I don’t think. I stopped studying many of the older talks since I was becoming too confused by them and I couldn’t follow what was happening.

All I know is that d&c 13 said the aaronic priesthood will not be taken from the earth until (or unless? I’m not sure) the sons of Levi make a sacrifice

Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and *this shall never be taken again from the earth*, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. d&c 13

And also something in the joseph smith papers mentioned something similar? This is all I’m aware of right now. Do you believe the Melchizedek priesthood can also never be taken from the earth?

Yes, as per Oliver Cowdery:

• “I was present with Joseph when an holy angel from God came down from heaven and conferred on us or restored the lesser or Aaronic Priesthood, and said to us, at the same time, that it should remain upon the earth while the earth stands. I was also present with Joseph when the higher or Melchisedek Priesthood was conferred by the holy angels of God from on high. This Priesthood was then conferred on each other, by the will and commandment of God. This Priesthood, as was then declared, is also to remain upon the earth until the last remnant of time.” — Oliver Cowdery (Reuben Miller Journal, 21 October 1848, CHL)

Oliver was talking here about the lower order of the Melchizedek Priesthood restored by Peter, James, and John, not the higher order or Fullness of the Priesthood restored by Moses, Elias, and Elijah in the Kirtland Temple. But Joseph publicly declared that it was his intention to see this Priesthood established in the earth forever:

• “My feelings at the present time are that, inasmuch as the Lord Almighty has preserved me until today, He will continue to preserve me, by the united faith and prayers of the Saints, until I have fully accomplished my mission in this life, and so firmly established the dispensation of the fullness of the priesthood in the last days, that all the powers of earth and hell can never prevail against it.“ — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <31 August 1842> page 258)