All is not well but I will stay anyway.

[TheDuke]

To be fair, the church of the Lamb of God includes all righteous, faithful Christians everywhere. These will NOT be burned at his coming.

So to clarify, the Church of Christ includes Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, etc....It becomes very difficult if not impossible to identify them based upon creeds and denominations. These people belong to Christ. NOT the devil. The COJCOLDS is but one small part of the people who will be taken up with Christ and subsequently dwell with him in peace on the earth during the Millennium. Why are Mormons so quick to cast all other believers, disciples of Christ in with the Church of the Devil? Do I really need to post numerous doctrinal LDS quotes to support this, or can we all agree that they don't fit the mold of "Church of the Devil"?

True, and "in my father's house there are many mansions".

There is NO end to eternal progression. If you think this little blip in time decides the ultimate and final measure of your progress in eternity, you are sorely mistaken.

This mortal probation is simply another semester, another grade on the way to our higher education. Some will graduate this class with A's. Some will get B's.Some will get C's. All are "passing" grades and prepare you for the next chapter. Some may have to repeat the course, until they get it right.

I simply do not buy into the Mormon theology of being "stuck" in some lower level of a kingdom for eternity. The truth is closer to the concept of "we all get there eventually", in our own time.

One thing I know, is that as children of God, our potential and ability to grow and progress is UNLIMITED. The very notion that someone could possibly inherit a lower glory within the Celestial kingdom, dwell there in the presence of Almighty God for eons of time, and NOT grow and progress beyond their initial glory is preposterous. Likewise that anyone could inherit a terrestrial glory, dwell there among the angels and enjoy the personal visitation and ministry of the Son of God, for eons of time and fail to progress to the next level is ridiculous. It's one of many false doctrines perpetuated by the LDS. Such a narrow, diminutive, and disappointing view of eternity, and so degrading to our Creator.

I suppose that for a child in Kindergarten, it's difficult to imagine much outside their little sphere. ABC's, reading time,recess, punch and cookies. So much more learning and growth lies in store. In fact, our learning NEVER ends in this mortal life. Which certainly means that to an even greater extent, our ability to progress and grow throughout eternity NEVER ends.

I know this truth independent of anyone else, or anything else. The Lord has instilled this truth upon my heart. I honestly couldn't care less for your projections, endless narcissism, and your immeasurable ego. Which is why I generally roll my eyes and keep scrolling whenever I see your replies to ANYTHING on this forum.

You may be John Wayne in your own mind, but you're just not that important.

very true what you say, I could easily agree with it all. But not the part of my avatar, that is just down right rude and uncalled for. Show's either uncontrolled anger or influence of Satan.

I never said I was important. And I pretty much said what you did above. But, you are a bit wrong. According to Alma, Mosiah, King Ben and others, this mortal probation is more than any old semester.

[JohnnyL]

Hopefully we all have lines that if crossed, we won’t stay. I know I do.

I hope I don't.

You wouldn’t leave the church if they proclaimed any of the following?

Jesus was not God, or the son of God.
Jesus did not atone for men’s sins.
Same sex marriage is allowed in the temple.
The Book of Mormon is a nice story, but not historically true.
Women can be ordained to the priesthood.

Well, you do you.

The majority won't do any of those, or more.

[JohnnyL]

Hopefully we all have lines that if crossed, we won’t stay. I know I do.

I hope I don't.

Wait... you have no lines? Let's take an extreme example. Let's say SRA is rampant among the top leaders. You stay, no matter what?

I'll wait for God and the prophet and majority of the apostles to take care of it, yes.

Is it Christ's church, or not?

I enjoy Church, I enjoy the temple, I enjoy the talks and testimonies, I enjoy serving, I enjoy being there, etc.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I hope I don't.

Wait... you have no lines? Let's take an extreme example. Let's say SRA is rampant among the top leaders. You stay, no matter what?

I'll wait for God and the prophet and majority of the apostles to take care of it, yes.

Is it Christ's church, or not?

I enjoy Church, I enjoy the temple, I enjoy the talks and testimonies, I enjoy serving, I enjoy being there, etc.

Holy smokes, you’re joking. Satanists could be running the church and you’d “sustain” them… wow!! I mean, you would have to do that you so can enjoy your temple, the very place where that SRA could be happening. *mind blown*

[Wolfwoman]

I hope I don't.

You wouldn’t leave the church if they proclaimed any of the following?

Jesus was not God, or the son of God.
Jesus did not atone for men’s sins.
Same sex marriage is allowed in the temple.
The Book of Mormon is a nice story, but not historically true.
Women can be ordained to the priesthood.

Well, you do you.

I would go into deep inactivity if the church did any of these things. Of this list allowing same sex marriage and ordaining women seem to be the most likely. I see no possibility that the church would do the first two.

I don’t see it happening anytime soon either. I saw a video once though, where someone was asking a member of the church if he would agree that the prophet had led the church astray if the prophet said one of the first two things on the list, or something along those lines. And the guy was able to do the mental gymnastics that no, the prophet wouldn’t be leading the church astray if he taught that. It made me think.

[nightlight]

Like I said in a different thread...

The idea of having to "sustain" very action of another man in order to be able to live in the same realm as God is THE PROBLEM. The 15 making errors is not the issue. People get ish wrong....that's life.

It's completely unscriptural for you to tell someone that if they don't raise the right hand to every policy&opinion... they are not worthy

And any man who'd ask you to do this is deceived

You all make me feel like I'm the crazy one.... funny thing is that I believed somewhat the same thing until I began to really read the literature

[Being There]

I have seen a few that have left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints due to their belief that all is not well in Zion or the church. I share that belief but I do not want to leave the church. Some have pointed to the prophecy found in D&C 112 and that it is prophesying about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in a very detrimental and negative way and is part of the reason they have left.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; 26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I am delighted that this prophesy is in D&C 112. It gives me hope for the future of the church and recognises that it is still the Lords house even if all is not well and some watchmen is not on the Lords errand. Would I want to be removed from the Lords house when things are bad? No. If it is bad in the Lord's house I would imagine it will be even worse outside.

For me the best and most preferrable option is to recognise that all is not well but still belong to the Lord's house. I may sometimes be critizised and ridiculed and avoided if I am too vocal and transparent but that is a price I am willing to pay to stay on the inside even when all is not well and our leaders are in the process of joining with Babylon. I have hope. Christ will expose the devil's cunning and I will have front row seat.

the same OLD song - heard it a million times *
it's really getting to be boring.
(and now we know who all the TBM are by those who gave this post a thumbs up)

* "I know all is not well in Zion"
but
but
but
and more and more lame excuses - and all just to try to justify their church and it's leaders
that have become corrupt and joined Babylon -
"but it's still the Lord's house" ya right !
You must not know what's going on in the church and how connected it is with Babylon.
If you actually think - that the Lord would have ANYTHING to do with the church,
you are very confused and deceived.

"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).


Isaiah sure describes the conditions of the church and it's corrupt leaders so perfectly.

Most members are being led away - led astray
by "those wolves in sheep's clothing that would harm His sheep" (church leaders) dumb watch dogs)
Watchmen that don't watch but are asleep. Isaiah 56, 29
"Instead of warning of trouble as Jehovah’s Day of Judgment approaches,
they resemble wanton herdsmen who scatter the sheep and feed themselves off the fattest"


ya those TBM that are stupid enough to blindly follow their church leaders,
and that come up with the most ridiculous lame excuses to try to justify their false prophet
and church leaders and their fallen corrupt church.
But it won't do them any good; because there are too many awake now -
the ones that don't just blindly follow have woken up to the truth,
and see for themselves the rotten fruit of church leaders and the apostasy of the church.

They are a bit confused and delusional,
and these scriptures are being fulfilled - by them - the confused,
along with their (church leaders "The Drunkards of Ephraim" )

"Jehovah’s people who are here addressed are chronically delusional
to the point of slumbering in a deep sleep. " *****


Isaiah 29

9 Procrastinate, and become bewildered;
preoccupy yourselves, until you cry for help.
Be drunk, but not with wine;
stagger, but not from strong drink.
10 ***** Jehovah has poured out on you
a spirit of deep sleep:
he has shut your eyes, the prophets;
he has covered your heads, the seers.


Jehovah’s people who are here addressed are chronically delusional
to the point of slumbering in a deep sleep.
Having procrastinated the day of their salvation by buying into dreamlike deceptions and fantasies, they grow “bewildered” and “cry for help” when Jehovah’s judgments come upon them.
As a people’s leaders generally reflect the people themselves, so all are spiritually “drunk” and “stagger”
instead of walking straight.
The prophets and seers—the people’s “eyes” and “heads”—can’t awaken them to spiritual realities because they themselves are intoxicated and asleep(Isaiah 28:7; 56:9-12).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 28:7 talks about priests and prophets.

7 These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor.
They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink;
they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.
8 For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement.

As the political and ecclesiastical leaderships of Jehovah’s people always appear on a par (Isaiah 3:2-4; 9:14-16; 24:2), so Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12).
Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies.
Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6). The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).

Isaiah 9

14 Therefore Jehovah will cut off from Israel
head and tail, palm top and reed, in a single day;
15 the elders or notables are the head,
the prophets who teach falsehoods, the tail.
16 The leaders of these people have misled them,
and those who are led are confused.

As in ancient times, the political and ecclesiastical leaders of Jehovah’s end-time people resemble one another.
Because of their wickedness, Jehovah “cuts off” both from his presence in “a single day”—his Day of Judgment (Isaiah 48:18-19). Because a people’s leaders reflect what the people are, the leaders’ misleading and confusing “these people”—Jehovah’s alienated people—constitutes an integral part of their punishment (cf. Isaiah 3:12).
***
Most reprehensible in the prophets who represent Jehovah to his people are the “falsehoods” or “lies” (seqer) they teach
(Isaiah 28:7; 29:10; 32:6-7).

A kind of delusion sets in among ecclesiastical leader as the people subscribe to the new narrative that merely perpetuates the status quo:
“These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions. For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement. Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation? Weanlings weaned from milk, those just taken from the breast? For it is but line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept; a trifle here, a trifle there” (Isaiah 28:7–10);

“Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber.
***
Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds.
They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage. ‘
Come, [they say,]let us get wine and have our fill of liquor. For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!’” (Isaiah 56:10–12).

When a spirit of self-sufficiency follows the people’s prosperity, spiritual standards grow lax and predatory practices prevail:
“How the faithful city has become a harlot! She was filled with justice; righteousness made its abode in her,
but now murderers.
Your silver has become dross, your wine diluted with water. Your rulers are renegades, accomplices of robbers: with one accord they love bribes and run after rewards; they do not dispense justice to the fatherless, nor does the widow’s case come before them” (Isaiah 1:21–23);
“The godless utter blasphemy; their heart ponders impiety: how to practice hypocrisy and preach perverse things concerning Jehovah, leaving the hungry soul empty, depriving the thirsty [soul]of drink. And rogues scheme by malevolent means and insidious devices to ruin the poor, and with false slogans and accusations to denounce the needy” (Isaiah 32:6–7).


The prophets in the Book of Mormon are speaking to us and have tried to warn us
but we - as a church have not heeded the warnings, and most members are being led away by -
"those wolves in sheep's clothing that would harm His sheep" (church leaders) dumb watch dogs)
Watchmen that don't watch but are asleep. Isaiah 56, 29
"Instead of warning of trouble as Jehovah’s Day of Judgment approaches,
they resemble wanton herdsmen who scatter the sheep and feed themselves off the fattest"

Isaiah 56
*** 8 Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: I will gather others to those already gathered.
9 All you wild beasts, you animals of the forest, come and devour!
10 Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs
unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber.

Typifying the leaders of Jehovah’s people who make a Covenant with Death instead of a Covenant of Life (Isaiah 28:15, 18), or Jehovah’s wife who turns adulterous (Isaiah 1:21; 50:1), are certain “watchmen”—prophets and seers—who occupy the highest rung of society. Because they epitomize “dumb watchdogs” and “lolling seers,”

********** Jehovah replaces them with a righteous watchman—his servant—and other watchmen:
“Go and appoint a watchman who reports what he sees” (Isaiah 21:6); “I have appointed watchmen on your walls,
O Jerusalem, who shall not be silent day or night” (Isaiah 62:6).

As the job of Jehovah’s watchmen is to report to his people what they see and hear (Isaiah 21:10; 48:16), those who are blind and unaware see and hear little of consequence and fail to warn his people: “Who is blind but my own servant, or so deaf as the messenger I have sent? Who is blind like those I have commissioned, as uncomprehending as the servant of Jehovah—seeing much but not giving heed, with open ears hearing nothing?” (Isaiah 42:19-20. The final fate of the blind watchmen, literally and figuratively, is to be devoured by wild beasts—a covenant curse (Isaiah 5:29; 15:9; 51:8).

***
11 Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds.
They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage.
12 Come, they say, let us get wine and have our fill of liquor. For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!

Instead of portraying these watchmen as ones who feed and protect the flock (Isaiah 5:17; 40:11; 63:11), the imagery of shepherds as dogs characterizes them as predators and unclean animals (Psalm 22:16; 1 Kings 14:11; Matthew 7:6).
Instead of warning of trouble as Jehovah’s Day of Judgment approaches, they resemble wanton herdsmen who scatter the sheep and feed themselves off the fattest (Jeremiah 23:1-2; 50:6-7; Ezekiel 34:1-8).
Instead of serving as proxy saviors to Jehovah’s people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant (Isaiah 37:35; 63:17; 65:8), they look out for themselves.

Word links round out the shepherds’ recriminatory state: “These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions” (Isaiah 28:7); “Procrastinate, and become bewildered; preoccupy yourselves, until you cry for help. Be drunk, but not with wine; stagger, but not from strong drink.
Jehovah has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep: he has shut your eyes, the prophets;
he has covered your heads, the seers” (Isaiah 29:9-10).

*** from verse 8
A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people (the church)
whom God saves in the end, but those who are rejected by the majority.
These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8).
In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8).


from above
**********
“Proclaim it aloud without restraint; raise your voice like a trumpet!
Declare to my people their transgressions, to the house of Jacob its sins”
(Isaiah 58:1).

"“watchmen” who prophesy in the day of power, when God “bares his holy arm in the eyes of all nations” (Isaiah 51:9–11; 52:8, 10). They stand on the watchtower day and night, are “most vigilant” and “fully alert” to approaching dangers, and report what they “see” and “hear” (Isaiah 21:6–10). They herald Jehovah’s coming to reign on the earth and prepare God’s people for their end-time exodus out of Babylon to Zion (Isaiah 52:7–8, 11–12; compare 48:20–21). They “raise their voice as one” at the time Jehovah comes (Isaiah 52:8).
They call upon God without ceasing for the welfare of his people and don’t keep silent day or night (Isaiah 62:6–7)."

[randyps]

Wait... you have no lines? Let's take an extreme example. Let's say SRA is rampant among the top leaders. You stay, no matter what?

I'll wait for God and the prophet and majority of the apostles to take care of it, yes.

Is it Christ's church, or not?

I enjoy Church, I enjoy the temple, I enjoy the talks and testimonies, I enjoy serving, I enjoy being there, etc.

Holy smokes, you’re joking. Satanists could be running the church and you’d “sustain” them… wow!! I mean, you would have to do that you so can enjoy your temple, the very place where that SRA could be happening. *mind blown*

You pay your taxes, obey traffic signals, celebrate national holidays etc.. you sustain the satanists running our country so that you can enjoy your home. One finger pointing means three pointing right back at you.

[Hogmeister]

I have seen a few that have left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints due to their belief that all is not well in Zion or the church. I share that belief but I do not want to leave the church. Some have pointed to the prophecy found in D&C 112 and that it is prophesying about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in a very detrimental and negative way and is part of the reason they have left.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; 26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I am delighted that this prophesy is in D&C 112. It gives me hope for the future of the church and recognises that it is still the Lords house even if all is not well and some watchmen is not on the Lords errand. Would I want to be removed from the Lords house when things are bad? No. If it is bad in the Lord's house I would imagine it will be even worse outside.

For me the best and most preferrable option is to recognise that all is not well but still belong to the Lord's house. I may sometimes be critizised and ridiculed and avoided if I am too vocal and transparent but that is a price I am willing to pay to stay on the inside even when all is not well and our leaders are in the process of joining with Babylon. I have hope. Christ will expose the devil's cunning and I will have front row seat.

the same OLD song - heard it a million times *
it's really getting to be boring.
(and now we know who all the TBM are by those who gave this post a thumbs up)

* "I know all is not well in Zion"
but
but
but
and more and more lame excuses - and all just to try to justify their church and it's leaders
that have become corrupt and joined Babylon -
"but it's still the Lord's house" ya right !
You must not know what's going on in the church and how connected it is with Babylon.
If you actually think - that the Lord would have ANYTHING to do with the church,
you are very confused and deceived.

"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).


Isaiah sure describes the conditions of the church and it's corrupt leaders so perfectly.

Most members are being led away - led astray
by "those wolves in sheep's clothing that would harm His sheep" (church leaders) dumb watch dogs)
Watchmen that don't watch but are asleep. Isaiah 56, 29
"Instead of warning of trouble as Jehovah’s Day of Judgment approaches,
they resemble wanton herdsmen who scatter the sheep and feed themselves off the fattest"


ya those TBM that are stupid enough to blindly follow their church leaders,
and that come up with the most ridiculous lame excuses to try to justify their false prophet
and church leaders and their fallen corrupt church.
But it won't do them any good; because there are too many awake now -
the ones that don't just blindly follow have woken up to the truth,
and see for themselves the rotten fruit of church leaders and the apostasy of the church.

They are a bit confused and delusional,
and these scriptures are being fulfilled - by them - the confused,
along with their (church leaders "The Drunkards of Ephraim" )

"Jehovah’s people who are here addressed are chronically delusional
to the point of slumbering in a deep sleep. " *****


Isaiah 29

9 Procrastinate, and become bewildered;
preoccupy yourselves, until you cry for help.
Be drunk, but not with wine;
stagger, but not from strong drink.
10 ***** Jehovah has poured out on you
a spirit of deep sleep:
he has shut your eyes, the prophets;
he has covered your heads, the seers.


Jehovah’s people who are here addressed are chronically delusional
to the point of slumbering in a deep sleep.
Having procrastinated the day of their salvation by buying into dreamlike deceptions and fantasies, they grow “bewildered” and “cry for help” when Jehovah’s judgments come upon them.
As a people’s leaders generally reflect the people themselves, so all are spiritually “drunk” and “stagger”
instead of walking straight.
The prophets and seers—the people’s “eyes” and “heads”—can’t awaken them to spiritual realities because they themselves are intoxicated and asleep(Isaiah 28:7; 56:9-12).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 28:7 talks about priests and prophets.

7 These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor.
They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink;
they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.
8 For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement.

As the political and ecclesiastical leaderships of Jehovah’s people always appear on a par (Isaiah 3:2-4; 9:14-16; 24:2), so Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12).
Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies.
Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6). The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).

Isaiah 9

14 Therefore Jehovah will cut off from Israel
head and tail, palm top and reed, in a single day;
15 the elders or notables are the head,
the prophets who teach falsehoods, the tail.
16 The leaders of these people have misled them,
and those who are led are confused.

As in ancient times, the political and ecclesiastical leaders of Jehovah’s end-time people resemble one another.
Because of their wickedness, Jehovah “cuts off” both from his presence in “a single day”—his Day of Judgment (Isaiah 48:18-19). Because a people’s leaders reflect what the people are, the leaders’ misleading and confusing “these people”—Jehovah’s alienated people—constitutes an integral part of their punishment (cf. Isaiah 3:12).
***
Most reprehensible in the prophets who represent Jehovah to his people are the “falsehoods” or “lies” (seqer) they teach
(Isaiah 28:7; 29:10; 32:6-7).

A kind of delusion sets in among ecclesiastical leader as the people subscribe to the new narrative that merely perpetuates the status quo:
“These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions. For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement. Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation? Weanlings weaned from milk, those just taken from the breast? For it is but line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept; a trifle here, a trifle there” (Isaiah 28:7–10);

“Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber.
***
Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds.
They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage. ‘
Come, [they say,]let us get wine and have our fill of liquor. For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!’” (Isaiah 56:10–12).

When a spirit of self-sufficiency follows the people’s prosperity, spiritual standards grow lax and predatory practices prevail:
“How the faithful city has become a harlot! She was filled with justice; righteousness made its abode in her,
but now murderers.
Your silver has become dross, your wine diluted with water. Your rulers are renegades, accomplices of robbers: with one accord they love bribes and run after rewards; they do not dispense justice to the fatherless, nor does the widow’s case come before them” (Isaiah 1:21–23);
“The godless utter blasphemy; their heart ponders impiety: how to practice hypocrisy and preach perverse things concerning Jehovah, leaving the hungry soul empty, depriving the thirsty [soul]of drink. And rogues scheme by malevolent means and insidious devices to ruin the poor, and with false slogans and accusations to denounce the needy” (Isaiah 32:6–7).


The prophets in the Book of Mormon are speaking to us and have tried to warn us
but we - as a church have not heeded the warnings, and most members are being led away by -
"those wolves in sheep's clothing that would harm His sheep" (church leaders) dumb watch dogs)
Watchmen that don't watch but are asleep. Isaiah 56, 29
"Instead of warning of trouble as Jehovah’s Day of Judgment approaches,
they resemble wanton herdsmen who scatter the sheep and feed themselves off the fattest"

Isaiah 56
*** 8 Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: I will gather others to those already gathered.
9 All you wild beasts, you animals of the forest, come and devour!
10 Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs
unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber.

Typifying the leaders of Jehovah’s people who make a Covenant with Death instead of a Covenant of Life (Isaiah 28:15, 18), or Jehovah’s wife who turns adulterous (Isaiah 1:21; 50:1), are certain “watchmen”—prophets and seers—who occupy the highest rung of society. Because they epitomize “dumb watchdogs” and “lolling seers,”

********** Jehovah replaces them with a righteous watchman—his servant—and other watchmen:
“Go and appoint a watchman who reports what he sees” (Isaiah 21:6); “I have appointed watchmen on your walls,
O Jerusalem, who shall not be silent day or night” (Isaiah 62:6).

As the job of Jehovah’s watchmen is to report to his people what they see and hear (Isaiah 21:10; 48:16), those who are blind and unaware see and hear little of consequence and fail to warn his people: “Who is blind but my own servant, or so deaf as the messenger I have sent? Who is blind like those I have commissioned, as uncomprehending as the servant of Jehovah—seeing much but not giving heed, with open ears hearing nothing?” (Isaiah 42:19-20. The final fate of the blind watchmen, literally and figuratively, is to be devoured by wild beasts—a covenant curse (Isaiah 5:29; 15:9; 51:8).

***
11 Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds.
They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage.
12 Come, they say, let us get wine and have our fill of liquor. For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!

Instead of portraying these watchmen as ones who feed and protect the flock (Isaiah 5:17; 40:11; 63:11), the imagery of shepherds as dogs characterizes them as predators and unclean animals (Psalm 22:16; 1 Kings 14:11; Matthew 7:6).
Instead of warning of trouble as Jehovah’s Day of Judgment approaches, they resemble wanton herdsmen who scatter the sheep and feed themselves off the fattest (Jeremiah 23:1-2; 50:6-7; Ezekiel 34:1-8).
Instead of serving as proxy saviors to Jehovah’s people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant (Isaiah 37:35; 63:17; 65:8), they look out for themselves.

Word links round out the shepherds’ recriminatory state: “These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions” (Isaiah 28:7); “Procrastinate, and become bewildered; preoccupy yourselves, until you cry for help. Be drunk, but not with wine; stagger, but not from strong drink.
Jehovah has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep: he has shut your eyes, the prophets;
he has covered your heads, the seers” (Isaiah 29:9-10).

*** from verse 8
A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people (the church)
whom God saves in the end, but those who are rejected by the majority.
These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8).
In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8).


from above
**********
“Proclaim it aloud without restraint; raise your voice like a trumpet!
Declare to my people their transgressions, to the house of Jacob its sins”
(Isaiah 58:1).

"“watchmen” who prophesy in the day of power, when God “bares his holy arm in the eyes of all nations” (Isaiah 51:9–11; 52:8, 10). They stand on the watchtower day and night, are “most vigilant” and “fully alert” to approaching dangers, and report what they “see” and “hear” (Isaiah 21:6–10). They herald Jehovah’s coming to reign on the earth and prepare God’s people for their end-time exodus out of Babylon to Zion (Isaiah 52:7–8, 11–12; compare 48:20–21). They “raise their voice as one” at the time Jehovah comes (Isaiah 52:8).
They call upon God without ceasing for the welfare of his people and don’t keep silent day or night (Isaiah 62:6–7)."

Again a stupid attack. Instead of acknowledging the things we actually agree on. I have seen this attack made by you probably 10 times on this forum. Give it a rest. I have not followed my leaders blindly ever and especially not for the last 10 years or so. So stupid to use the TBM attack against everyone, all the time, who is not 100% accepting of your view to be blindly led by yourself into darkness. It's getting boring to see your clutter in every thread.

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. YET I WILL HEAL HIM (this is a theme throughout Isaiah you might want to research), for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

[Being There]

I have seen a few that have left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints due to their belief that all is not well in Zion or the church. I share that belief but I do not want to leave the church. Some have pointed to the prophecy found in D&C 112 and that it is prophesying about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in a very detrimental and negative way and is part of the reason they have left.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; 26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I am delighted that this prophesy is in D&C 112. It gives me hope for the future of the church and recognises that it is still the Lords house even if all is not well and some watchmen is not on the Lords errand. Would I want to be removed from the Lords house when things are bad? No. If it is bad in the Lord's house I would imagine it will be even worse outside.

For me the best and most preferrable option is to recognise that all is not well but still belong to the Lord's house. I may sometimes be critizised and ridiculed and avoided if I am too vocal and transparent but that is a price I am willing to pay to stay on the inside even when all is not well and our leaders are in the process of joining with Babylon. I have hope. Christ will expose the devil's cunning and I will have front row seat.

the same OLD song - heard it a million times *
it's really getting to be boring.
(and now we know who all the TBM are by those who gave this post a thumbs up)

* "I know all is not well in Zion"
but
but
but
and more and more lame excuses - and all just to try to justify their church and it's leaders
that have become corrupt and joined Babylon -
"but it's still the Lord's house" ya right !
You must not know what's going on in the church and how connected it is with Babylon.
If you actually think - that the Lord would have ANYTHING to do with the church,
you are very confused and deceived.

"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).


Isaiah sure describes the conditions of the church and it's corrupt leaders so perfectly.

Most members are being led away - led astray
by "those wolves in sheep's clothing that would harm His sheep" (church leaders) dumb watch dogs)
Watchmen that don't watch but are asleep. Isaiah 56, 29
"Instead of warning of trouble as Jehovah’s Day of Judgment approaches,
they resemble wanton herdsmen who scatter the sheep and feed themselves off the fattest"


ya those TBM that are stupid enough to blindly follow their church leaders,
and that come up with the most ridiculous lame excuses to try to justify their false prophet
and church leaders and their fallen corrupt church.
But it won't do them any good; because there are too many awake now -
the ones that don't just blindly follow have woken up to the truth,
and see for themselves the rotten fruit of church leaders and the apostasy of the church.

They are a bit confused and delusional,
and these scriptures are being fulfilled - by them - the confused,
along with their (church leaders "The Drunkards of Ephraim" )

"Jehovah’s people who are here addressed are chronically delusional
to the point of slumbering in a deep sleep. " *****


Isaiah 29

9 Procrastinate, and become bewildered;
preoccupy yourselves, until you cry for help.
Be drunk, but not with wine;
stagger, but not from strong drink.
10 ***** Jehovah has poured out on you
a spirit of deep sleep:
he has shut your eyes, the prophets;
he has covered your heads, the seers.


Jehovah’s people who are here addressed are chronically delusional
to the point of slumbering in a deep sleep.
Having procrastinated the day of their salvation by buying into dreamlike deceptions and fantasies, they grow “bewildered” and “cry for help” when Jehovah’s judgments come upon them.
As a people’s leaders generally reflect the people themselves, so all are spiritually “drunk” and “stagger”
instead of walking straight.
The prophets and seers—the people’s “eyes” and “heads”—can’t awaken them to spiritual realities because they themselves are intoxicated and asleep(Isaiah 28:7; 56:9-12).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 28:7 talks about priests and prophets.

7 These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor.
They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink;
they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.
8 For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement.

As the political and ecclesiastical leaderships of Jehovah’s people always appear on a par (Isaiah 3:2-4; 9:14-16; 24:2), so Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12).
Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies.
Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6). The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).

Isaiah 9

14 Therefore Jehovah will cut off from Israel
head and tail, palm top and reed, in a single day;
15 the elders or notables are the head,
the prophets who teach falsehoods, the tail.
16 The leaders of these people have misled them,
and those who are led are confused.

As in ancient times, the political and ecclesiastical leaders of Jehovah’s end-time people resemble one another.
Because of their wickedness, Jehovah “cuts off” both from his presence in “a single day”—his Day of Judgment (Isaiah 48:18-19). Because a people’s leaders reflect what the people are, the leaders’ misleading and confusing “these people”—Jehovah’s alienated people—constitutes an integral part of their punishment (cf. Isaiah 3:12).
***
Most reprehensible in the prophets who represent Jehovah to his people are the “falsehoods” or “lies” (seqer) they teach
(Isaiah 28:7; 29:10; 32:6-7).

A kind of delusion sets in among ecclesiastical leader as the people subscribe to the new narrative that merely perpetuates the status quo:
“These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions. For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement. Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation? Weanlings weaned from milk, those just taken from the breast? For it is but line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept; a trifle here, a trifle there” (Isaiah 28:7–10);

“Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber.
***
Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds.
They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage. ‘
Come, [they say,]let us get wine and have our fill of liquor. For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!’” (Isaiah 56:10–12).

When a spirit of self-sufficiency follows the people’s prosperity, spiritual standards grow lax and predatory practices prevail:
“How the faithful city has become a harlot! She was filled with justice; righteousness made its abode in her,
but now murderers.
Your silver has become dross, your wine diluted with water. Your rulers are renegades, accomplices of robbers: with one accord they love bribes and run after rewards; they do not dispense justice to the fatherless, nor does the widow’s case come before them” (Isaiah 1:21–23);
“The godless utter blasphemy; their heart ponders impiety: how to practice hypocrisy and preach perverse things concerning Jehovah, leaving the hungry soul empty, depriving the thirsty [soul]of drink. And rogues scheme by malevolent means and insidious devices to ruin the poor, and with false slogans and accusations to denounce the needy” (Isaiah 32:6–7).


The prophets in the Book of Mormon are speaking to us and have tried to warn us
but we - as a church have not heeded the warnings, and most members are being led away by -
"those wolves in sheep's clothing that would harm His sheep" (church leaders) dumb watch dogs)
Watchmen that don't watch but are asleep. Isaiah 56, 29
"Instead of warning of trouble as Jehovah’s Day of Judgment approaches,
they resemble wanton herdsmen who scatter the sheep and feed themselves off the fattest"

Isaiah 56
*** 8 Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: I will gather others to those already gathered.
9 All you wild beasts, you animals of the forest, come and devour!
10 Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs
unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber.

Typifying the leaders of Jehovah’s people who make a Covenant with Death instead of a Covenant of Life (Isaiah 28:15, 18), or Jehovah’s wife who turns adulterous (Isaiah 1:21; 50:1), are certain “watchmen”—prophets and seers—who occupy the highest rung of society. Because they epitomize “dumb watchdogs” and “lolling seers,”

********** Jehovah replaces them with a righteous watchman—his servant—and other watchmen:
“Go and appoint a watchman who reports what he sees” (Isaiah 21:6); “I have appointed watchmen on your walls,
O Jerusalem, who shall not be silent day or night” (Isaiah 62:6).

As the job of Jehovah’s watchmen is to report to his people what they see and hear (Isaiah 21:10; 48:16), those who are blind and unaware see and hear little of consequence and fail to warn his people: “Who is blind but my own servant, or so deaf as the messenger I have sent? Who is blind like those I have commissioned, as uncomprehending as the servant of Jehovah—seeing much but not giving heed, with open ears hearing nothing?” (Isaiah 42:19-20. The final fate of the blind watchmen, literally and figuratively, is to be devoured by wild beasts—a covenant curse (Isaiah 5:29; 15:9; 51:8).

***
11 Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds.
They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage.
12 Come, they say, let us get wine and have our fill of liquor. For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!

Instead of portraying these watchmen as ones who feed and protect the flock (Isaiah 5:17; 40:11; 63:11), the imagery of shepherds as dogs characterizes them as predators and unclean animals (Psalm 22:16; 1 Kings 14:11; Matthew 7:6).
Instead of warning of trouble as Jehovah’s Day of Judgment approaches, they resemble wanton herdsmen who scatter the sheep and feed themselves off the fattest (Jeremiah 23:1-2; 50:6-7; Ezekiel 34:1-8).
Instead of serving as proxy saviors to Jehovah’s people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant (Isaiah 37:35; 63:17; 65:8), they look out for themselves.

Word links round out the shepherds’ recriminatory state: “These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions” (Isaiah 28:7); “Procrastinate, and become bewildered; preoccupy yourselves, until you cry for help. Be drunk, but not with wine; stagger, but not from strong drink.
Jehovah has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep: he has shut your eyes, the prophets;
he has covered your heads, the seers” (Isaiah 29:9-10).

*** from verse 8
A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people (the church)
whom God saves in the end, but those who are rejected by the majority.
These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8).
In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8).


from above
**********
“Proclaim it aloud without restraint; raise your voice like a trumpet!
Declare to my people their transgressions, to the house of Jacob its sins”
(Isaiah 58:1).

"“watchmen” who prophesy in the day of power, when God “bares his holy arm in the eyes of all nations” (Isaiah 51:9–11; 52:8, 10). They stand on the watchtower day and night, are “most vigilant” and “fully alert” to approaching dangers, and report what they “see” and “hear” (Isaiah 21:6–10). They herald Jehovah’s coming to reign on the earth and prepare God’s people for their end-time exodus out of Babylon to Zion (Isaiah 52:7–8, 11–12; compare 48:20–21). They “raise their voice as one” at the time Jehovah comes (Isaiah 52:8).
They call upon God without ceasing for the welfare of his people and don’t keep silent day or night (Isaiah 62:6–7)."

Again a stupid attack. Instead of acknowledging the things we actually agree on. I have seen this attack made by you probably 10 times on this forum. Give it a rest. I have not followed my leaders blindly ever and especially not for the last 10 years or so. So stupid to use the TBM attack against everyone, all the time, who is not 100% accepting to be blindly led by yourself into darkness. It's getting boring to see your clutter in every thread.

sorry, but quoting Isaiah, isn't a stupid attack.
And yes, some might see truth, as being an attack on them - many have -
and sorry you have a problem - but why don't you just keep it to yourself.
And if the truth is just too much for you to see - PLEASE just go ahead and block me -
then you don't have to see it, and you can go back and bury your head in the sand again.

[Being There]

I guess some members think they'll be saved, by staying in the ship,
and would rather just sink with old ship Zion
than face the truth and just turn to Jesus to be saved.

[Hogmeister]

the same OLD song - heard it a million times *
it's really getting to be boring.
(and now we know who all the TBM are by those who gave this post a thumbs up)

* "I know all is not well in Zion"
but
but
but
and more and more lame excuses - and all just to try to justify their church and it's leaders
that have become corrupt and joined Babylon -
"but it's still the Lord's house" ya right !
You must not know what's going on in the church and how connected it is with Babylon.
If you actually think - that the Lord would have ANYTHING to do with the church,
you are very confused and deceived.

"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).


Isaiah sure describes the conditions of the church and it's corrupt leaders so perfectly.

Most members are being led away - led astray
by "those wolves in sheep's clothing that would harm His sheep" (church leaders) dumb watch dogs)
Watchmen that don't watch but are asleep. Isaiah 56, 29
"Instead of warning of trouble as Jehovah’s Day of Judgment approaches,
they resemble wanton herdsmen who scatter the sheep and feed themselves off the fattest"


ya those TBM that are stupid enough to blindly follow their church leaders,
and that come up with the most ridiculous lame excuses to try to justify their false prophet
and church leaders and their fallen corrupt church.
But it won't do them any good; because there are too many awake now -
the ones that don't just blindly follow have woken up to the truth,
and see for themselves the rotten fruit of church leaders and the apostasy of the church.

They are a bit confused and delusional,
and these scriptures are being fulfilled - by them - the confused,
along with their (church leaders "The Drunkards of Ephraim" )

"Jehovah’s people who are here addressed are chronically delusional
to the point of slumbering in a deep sleep. " *****


Isaiah 29

9 Procrastinate, and become bewildered;
preoccupy yourselves, until you cry for help.
Be drunk, but not with wine;
stagger, but not from strong drink.
10 ***** Jehovah has poured out on you
a spirit of deep sleep:
he has shut your eyes, the prophets;
he has covered your heads, the seers.


Jehovah’s people who are here addressed are chronically delusional
to the point of slumbering in a deep sleep.
Having procrastinated the day of their salvation by buying into dreamlike deceptions and fantasies, they grow “bewildered” and “cry for help” when Jehovah’s judgments come upon them.
As a people’s leaders generally reflect the people themselves, so all are spiritually “drunk” and “stagger”
instead of walking straight.
The prophets and seers—the people’s “eyes” and “heads”—can’t awaken them to spiritual realities because they themselves are intoxicated and asleep(Isaiah 28:7; 56:9-12).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 28:7 talks about priests and prophets.

7 These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor.
They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink;
they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.
8 For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement.

As the political and ecclesiastical leaderships of Jehovah’s people always appear on a par (Isaiah 3:2-4; 9:14-16; 24:2), so Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12).
Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies.
Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6). The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused” (Isaiah 9:13–16).

Isaiah 9

14 Therefore Jehovah will cut off from Israel
head and tail, palm top and reed, in a single day;
15 the elders or notables are the head,
the prophets who teach falsehoods, the tail.
16 The leaders of these people have misled them,
and those who are led are confused.

As in ancient times, the political and ecclesiastical leaders of Jehovah’s end-time people resemble one another.
Because of their wickedness, Jehovah “cuts off” both from his presence in “a single day”—his Day of Judgment (Isaiah 48:18-19). Because a people’s leaders reflect what the people are, the leaders’ misleading and confusing “these people”—Jehovah’s alienated people—constitutes an integral part of their punishment (cf. Isaiah 3:12).
***
Most reprehensible in the prophets who represent Jehovah to his people are the “falsehoods” or “lies” (seqer) they teach
(Isaiah 28:7; 29:10; 32:6-7).

A kind of delusion sets in among ecclesiastical leader as the people subscribe to the new narrative that merely perpetuates the status quo:
“These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions. For all tables are filled with vomit; no spot is without excrement. Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation? Weanlings weaned from milk, those just taken from the breast? For it is but line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept; a trifle here, a trifle there” (Isaiah 28:7–10);

“Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber.
***
Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds.
They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage. ‘
Come, [they say,]let us get wine and have our fill of liquor. For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!’” (Isaiah 56:10–12).

When a spirit of self-sufficiency follows the people’s prosperity, spiritual standards grow lax and predatory practices prevail:
“How the faithful city has become a harlot! She was filled with justice; righteousness made its abode in her,
but now murderers.
Your silver has become dross, your wine diluted with water. Your rulers are renegades, accomplices of robbers: with one accord they love bribes and run after rewards; they do not dispense justice to the fatherless, nor does the widow’s case come before them” (Isaiah 1:21–23);
“The godless utter blasphemy; their heart ponders impiety: how to practice hypocrisy and preach perverse things concerning Jehovah, leaving the hungry soul empty, depriving the thirsty [soul]of drink. And rogues scheme by malevolent means and insidious devices to ruin the poor, and with false slogans and accusations to denounce the needy” (Isaiah 32:6–7).


The prophets in the Book of Mormon are speaking to us and have tried to warn us
but we - as a church have not heeded the warnings, and most members are being led away by -
"those wolves in sheep's clothing that would harm His sheep" (church leaders) dumb watch dogs)
Watchmen that don't watch but are asleep. Isaiah 56, 29
"Instead of warning of trouble as Jehovah’s Day of Judgment approaches,
they resemble wanton herdsmen who scatter the sheep and feed themselves off the fattest"

Isaiah 56
*** 8 Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: I will gather others to those already gathered.
9 All you wild beasts, you animals of the forest, come and devour!
10 Their watchmen are altogether blind and unaware; all of them are but dumb watchdogs
unable to bark, lolling seers fond of slumber.

Typifying the leaders of Jehovah’s people who make a Covenant with Death instead of a Covenant of Life (Isaiah 28:15, 18), or Jehovah’s wife who turns adulterous (Isaiah 1:21; 50:1), are certain “watchmen”—prophets and seers—who occupy the highest rung of society. Because they epitomize “dumb watchdogs” and “lolling seers,”

********** Jehovah replaces them with a righteous watchman—his servant—and other watchmen:
“Go and appoint a watchman who reports what he sees” (Isaiah 21:6); “I have appointed watchmen on your walls,
O Jerusalem, who shall not be silent day or night” (Isaiah 62:6).

As the job of Jehovah’s watchmen is to report to his people what they see and hear (Isaiah 21:10; 48:16), those who are blind and unaware see and hear little of consequence and fail to warn his people: “Who is blind but my own servant, or so deaf as the messenger I have sent? Who is blind like those I have commissioned, as uncomprehending as the servant of Jehovah—seeing much but not giving heed, with open ears hearing nothing?” (Isaiah 42:19-20. The final fate of the blind watchmen, literally and figuratively, is to be devoured by wild beasts—a covenant curse (Isaiah 5:29; 15:9; 51:8).

***
11 Gluttonous dogs, and insatiable, such indeed are insensible shepherds.
They are all diverted to their own way, every one after his own advantage.
12 Come, they say, let us get wine and have our fill of liquor. For tomorrow will be like today, only far better!

Instead of portraying these watchmen as ones who feed and protect the flock (Isaiah 5:17; 40:11; 63:11), the imagery of shepherds as dogs characterizes them as predators and unclean animals (Psalm 22:16; 1 Kings 14:11; Matthew 7:6).
Instead of warning of trouble as Jehovah’s Day of Judgment approaches, they resemble wanton herdsmen who scatter the sheep and feed themselves off the fattest (Jeremiah 23:1-2; 50:6-7; Ezekiel 34:1-8).
Instead of serving as proxy saviors to Jehovah’s people under the terms of the Davidic Covenant (Isaiah 37:35; 63:17; 65:8), they look out for themselves.

Word links round out the shepherds’ recriminatory state: “These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions” (Isaiah 28:7); “Procrastinate, and become bewildered; preoccupy yourselves, until you cry for help. Be drunk, but not with wine; stagger, but not from strong drink.
Jehovah has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep: he has shut your eyes, the prophets;
he has covered your heads, the seers” (Isaiah 29:9-10).

*** from verse 8
A hard fact of Isaiah’s end-time scenario is that it is not those who appear to be God’s people (the church)
whom God saves in the end, but those who are rejected by the majority.
These “outcasts” suffer “reproach” and “ridicule,” are “excluded” from God’s people, and, like God’s servant who gathers them, are “despised” and “abhorred” until God reverses their circumstances (Isaiah 49:7–8; 51:7; 60:15–16; 61:7, 9; 66:5–8).
In the end, those who are excluded and betrayed by their own people, are gathered with God’s righteous remnant: “Thus says my Lord Jehovah, who gathers up the outcasts of Israel: ‘I will gather others to those already gathered’” (Isaiah 56:3, 8).


from above
**********
“Proclaim it aloud without restraint; raise your voice like a trumpet!
Declare to my people their transgressions, to the house of Jacob its sins”
(Isaiah 58:1).

"“watchmen” who prophesy in the day of power, when God “bares his holy arm in the eyes of all nations” (Isaiah 51:9–11; 52:8, 10). They stand on the watchtower day and night, are “most vigilant” and “fully alert” to approaching dangers, and report what they “see” and “hear” (Isaiah 21:6–10). They herald Jehovah’s coming to reign on the earth and prepare God’s people for their end-time exodus out of Babylon to Zion (Isaiah 52:7–8, 11–12; compare 48:20–21). They “raise their voice as one” at the time Jehovah comes (Isaiah 52:8).
They call upon God without ceasing for the welfare of his people and don’t keep silent day or night (Isaiah 62:6–7)."

Again a stupid attack. Instead of acknowledging the things we actually agree on. I have seen this attack made by you probably 10 times on this forum. Give it a rest. I have not followed my leaders blindly ever and especially not for the last 10 years or so. So stupid to use the TBM attack against everyone, all the time, who is not 100% accepting to be blindly led by yourself into darkness. It's getting boring to see your clutter in every thread.

sorry, but quoting Isaiah, isn't a stupid attack.
And yes, some might see truth, as being an attack on them - many have -
and sorry you have a problem - but why don't you just keep it to yourself.
And if the truth is just too much for you to see - PLEASE just go ahead and block me -
then you don't have to see it, and you can go back and bury your head in the sand again.

I can quote Isaiah too and I just did. I wonder why the greatest Isaiah scholar I have come across is still a member of the LDS church (even rebaptised). Must still have his head in the sand as there can't possibly be anything of worth found with the LDS.

[Being There]

Again a stupid attack. Instead of acknowledging the things we actually agree on. I have seen this attack made by you probably 10 times on this forum. Give it a rest. I have not followed my leaders blindly ever and especially not for the last 10 years or so. So stupid to use the TBM attack against everyone, all the time, who is not 100% accepting to be blindly led by yourself into darkness. It's getting boring to see your clutter in every thread.

sorry, but quoting Isaiah, isn't a stupid attack.
And yes, some might see truth, as being an attack on them - many have -
and sorry you have a problem - but why don't you just keep it to yourself.
And if the truth is just too much for you to see - PLEASE just go ahead and block me -
then you don't have to see it, and you can go back and bury your head in the sand again.

I can quote Isaiah too and I just did. I wonder why the greatest Isaiah scholar I have come across is still a member of the LDS church (even rebaptised). Must still have his head in the sand as there can't possibly be anything of worth found in the LDS.

you're right - Gileadi IS the greatest Isaiah scholar,
but more like - if he was no longer a member - hardly any LDS members would even read his books,
and then not only would he not make enough money even to live,
but then - more important - what good would Isaiah's message be - in his books and in his translation -
considering they are for us - the Lord's end-time people - the Gentile LDS church.

[cab]

Just so we are clear. The judgment begins on the family/house of God.... not "just" the LDS Church. 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Thank you. I am tired of the Mormon narcissism view of prophecy. We are just one of the many struggling religions out there.

Get tired all you want, it comes from the BofM "save two churches only" and "whomsover does not belong to the church of the Lamb, belongs to the great whore" . But I guess if you reject mormonism all together....

And therein lies the error. This church ain’t the church of the lamb. The church of the lamb are those who have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, which is spread through all sects…

[Reluctant Watchman]

I simply don't believe in LDS doctrine.
It doesn't line up with scripture/Spirit

"Sealing" people is the crux of LDS doctrine. And it is unscriptural at the very least,damning at the most.

To seal women and "children" as if they are free from the choices a human must make is insanity. To think mortals are needed to save dead people is beyond hubris

The Book of Mormon stands in contrast to the LDS theology

The New Testament stands in contrast to the LDS doctrine

"You need more than Fire&HolyGhost&Endurance to live with God......you need to know the secret handshakes and secret hand signs. You need to marry multiple women....you need to swear by heaven to obey our mortal ruler....you need to etc"

This is why LDS conduct is not firm this in co-opted society.

IT IS NOT BUILT UPON THE ROCK

COVID nonsense was a taste of the Beast, and your godly mouthpieces told you to follow the wise&worldly Beast to save our society and bring back it's bastardized normalcy

What year were LDS speaking truth? The late 1800s ? The 1920s? The 1950s? The 1990s? 2020?

It's not there

3Nephi11:

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.

32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

41 Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.

++++++++++++++++


16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

I would agree with you if you look at “sealing” with an LDS lens. But I think there is more to the Holy Ghost than most think or realize. And, unfortunately, this is not taught well nor practiced in the LDS org.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'll wait for God and the prophet and majority of the apostles to take care of it, yes.

Is it Christ's church, or not?

I enjoy Church, I enjoy the temple, I enjoy the talks and testimonies, I enjoy serving, I enjoy being there, etc.

Holy smokes, you’re joking. Satanists could be running the church and you’d “sustain” them… wow!! I mean, you would have to do that you so can enjoy your temple, the very place where that SRA could be happening. *mind blown*

You pay your taxes, obey traffic signals, celebrate national holidays etc.. you sustain the satanists running our country so that you can enjoy your home. One finger pointing means three pointing right back at you.

Wow, you guys will do anything a person says.

[JohnnyL]

Wait... you have no lines? Let's take an extreme example. Let's say SRA is rampant among the top leaders. You stay, no matter what?

I'll wait for God and the prophet and majority of the apostles to take care of it, yes.

Is it Christ's church, or not?

I enjoy Church, I enjoy the temple, I enjoy the talks and testimonies, I enjoy serving, I enjoy being there, etc.

Holy smokes, you’re joking. Satanists could be running the church and you’d “sustain” them… wow!! I mean, you would have to do that you so can enjoy your temple, the very place where that SRA could be happening. *mind blown*

Hmm... I don't remember saying that... ?

[Reluctant Watchman]

I'll wait for God and the prophet and majority of the apostles to take care of it, yes.

Is it Christ's church, or not?

I enjoy Church, I enjoy the temple, I enjoy the talks and testimonies, I enjoy serving, I enjoy being there, etc.

Holy smokes, you’re joking. Satanists could be running the church and you’d “sustain” them… wow!! I mean, you would have to do that you so can enjoy your temple, the very place where that SRA could be happening. *mind blown*

Hmm... I don't remember saying that... ?

It's implied. Unless your "I'll wait for God" means you won't sustain these men. If you don't sustain them, you won't be a very good global citizen. You will lose your temple blessings. To sustain means you obey them, that you bind yourself to them. At least that's what the LDS church teaches, you may disagree.

[JohnnyL]

Holy smokes, you’re joking. Satanists could be running the church and you’d “sustain” them… wow!! I mean, you would have to do that you so can enjoy your temple, the very place where that SRA could be happening. *mind blown*

Hmm... I don't remember saying that... ?

It's implied. Unless your "I'll wait for God" means you won't sustain these men. If you don't sustain them, you won't be a very good global citizen. You will lose your temple blessings. To sustain means you obey them, that you bind yourself to them. At least that's what the LDS church teaches, you may disagree.

Implied? Serious?? I'm sad you don't know me yet. ;(

"Satanists could be running the Church." vs. "There are many hypocrites and liars who have denied the faith and spend much time denouncing the leaders of the Church." I'm quite sure of the second (I see it every day here on the board), but not the first.

Yes, I do hear/ see a few things off to me every once in a while, just like with most members--including myself. (Do you understand the reason we need the Spirit?) They already spoke on NOT getting involved in non-Church-related parts of our lives, but I guess most people either didn't hear it or didn't remember it (like all those claims in the thread like "NOTHING has been said about food storage for years.").

If God were to tell me Satanists were running the Church (which he wouldn't, there wouldn't be a majority, of that I have a testimony), and to not sustain them, do you think I would?

Why would anyone have to sustain Satanists to go to the temple?
Though I know many here who don't pay tithing or fast offerings or do so "in their own way", and/or don't believe that the 15 are PSR's, and/or don't believe in the temple/ priesthood keys/ priesthood/ etc., etc., yet still have not come clean with God or their Church leaders and/or are not willing to have a membership council and/or still attend the temple. Wolves in sheep's clothing, indeed.

I'm figuring (please don't misread "implying") that if I were to know, some of the 15 would know, too. Nevertheless, I would write a letter explaining things as I see them.

Sustaining a prophet when acting as a prophet, or sustaining a prophet when acting as a man?

I believe that part of sustaining means to impart knowledge in a direct and courteous way about possible conflicts, reasons, problems, etc. (which I have done).

How would anyone know the Church leaders were Satanists? The Holy Ghost?? Or the leaders' fruits that one sees and of course knows the intentions behind? Could you imagine such someone crossing to the spirit world and finding out they not only were they wrong, but would be judged with the same judgment, meted out according to their measurement?

[Reluctant Watchman]

Hmm... I don't remember saying that... ?

It's implied. Unless your "I'll wait for God" means you won't sustain these men. If you don't sustain them, you won't be a very good global citizen. You will lose your temple blessings. To sustain means you obey them, that you bind yourself to them. At least that's what the LDS church teaches, you may disagree.

Implied? Serious?? I'm sad you don't know me yet. ;(

"Satanists could be running the Church." vs. "There are many hypocrites and liars who have denied the faith and spend much time denouncing the leaders of the Church." I'm quite sure of the second (I see it every day here on the board), but not the first.

Yes, I do hear/ see a few things off to me every once in a while, just like with most members--including myself. (Do you understand the reason we need the Spirit?) They already spoke on NOT getting involved in non-Church-related parts of our lives, but I guess most people either didn't hear it or didn't remember it (like all those claims in the thread like "NOTHING has been said about food storage for years.").

If God were to tell me Satanists were running the Church (which he wouldn't, there wouldn't be a majority, of that I have a testimony), and to not sustain them, do you think I would?

Why would anyone have to sustain Satanists to go to the temple?
Though I know many here who don't pay tithing or fast offerings or do so "in their own way", and/or don't believe that the 15 are PSR's, and/or don't believe in the temple/ priesthood keys/ priesthood/ etc., etc., yet still have not come clean with God or their Church leaders and/or are not willing to have a membership council and/or still attend the temple. Wolves in sheep's clothing, indeed.

I'm figuring (please don't misread "implying") that if I were to know, some of the 15 would know, too. Nevertheless, I would write a letter explaining things as I see them.

Sustaining a prophet when acting as a prophet, or sustaining a prophet when acting as a man?

I believe that part of sustaining means to impart knowledge in a direct and courteous way about possible conflicts, reasons, problems, etc. (which I have done).

How would anyone know the Church leaders were Satanists? The Holy Ghost?? Or the leaders' fruits that one sees and of course knows the intentions behind? Could you imagine such someone crossing to the spirit world and finding out they not only were they wrong, but would be judged with the same judgment, meted out according to their measurement?

The simple fact that you think God wouldn’t tell you something is, well, telling. You have what I call a fractional belief system. You believe what you want to believe, which only aligns with partial aspects of church doctrine. The church does not teach your definition of sustain. That’s my point. They teach that you obey them, that to sustain them is an oath-like indication that their calling as prophet is binding upon you. That’s a bunch of horse manure if I ever heard it. It completely contradicts Christ’s doctrine.

So in a way, I agree with you, we should be cafeteria mormons. But the church teaches that you should not be.

The SRA was an example, but in reality, there’s a lot to digest if you are willing to get over your cognitive dissonance. Which you admitted yourself that you have. “The Lord would never…”

BTW, you can write all the letters you want, it won’t amount to a hill of beans. The leaders only listen to members when it is to their advantage and their authority isn’t threatened.

I’m not saying that you should leave the church. That’s between you and God. What we’re talking about is a line in the sand. The church has created a system that rejects people who have sincere honest questions.

[fractal_light_harvest]

It's implied. Unless your "I'll wait for God" means you won't sustain these men. If you don't sustain them, you won't be a very good global citizen. You will lose your temple blessings. To sustain means you obey them, that you bind yourself to them. At least that's what the LDS church teaches, you may disagree.

Implied? Serious?? I'm sad you don't know me yet. ;(

"Satanists could be running the Church." vs. "There are many hypocrites and liars who have denied the faith and spend much time denouncing the leaders of the Church." I'm quite sure of the second (I see it every day here on the board), but not the first.

Yes, I do hear/ see a few things off to me every once in a while, just like with most members--including myself. (Do you understand the reason we need the Spirit?) They already spoke on NOT getting involved in non-Church-related parts of our lives, but I guess most people either didn't hear it or didn't remember it (like all those claims in the thread like "NOTHING has been said about food storage for years.").

If God were to tell me Satanists were running the Church (which he wouldn't, there wouldn't be a majority, of that I have a testimony), and to not sustain them, do you think I would?

Why would anyone have to sustain Satanists to go to the temple?
Though I know many here who don't pay tithing or fast offerings or do so "in their own way", and/or don't believe that the 15 are PSR's, and/or don't believe in the temple/ priesthood keys/ priesthood/ etc., etc., yet still have not come clean with God or their Church leaders and/or are not willing to have a membership council and/or still attend the temple. Wolves in sheep's clothing, indeed.

I'm figuring (please don't misread "implying") that if I were to know, some of the 15 would know, too. Nevertheless, I would write a letter explaining things as I see them.

Sustaining a prophet when acting as a prophet, or sustaining a prophet when acting as a man?

I believe that part of sustaining means to impart knowledge in a direct and courteous way about possible conflicts, reasons, problems, etc. (which I have done).

How would anyone know the Church leaders were Satanists? The Holy Ghost?? Or the leaders' fruits that one sees and of course knows the intentions behind? Could you imagine such someone crossing to the spirit world and finding out they not only were they wrong, but would be judged with the same judgment, meted out according to their measurement?

The simple fact that you think God wouldn’t tell you something is, well, telling. You have what I call a fractional belief system. You believe what you want to believe, which only aligns with partial aspects of church doctrine. The church does not teach your definition of sustain. That’s my point. They teach that you obey them, that to sustain them is an oath-like indication that their calling as prophet is binding upon you. That’s a bunch of horse manure if I ever heard it. It completely contradicts Christ’s doctrine.

So in a way, I agree with you, we should be cafeteria mormons. But the church teaches that you should not be.

The SRA was an example, but in reality, there’s a lot to digest if you are willing to get over your cognitive dissonance. Which you admitted yourself that you have. “The Lord would never…”

BTW, you can write all the letters you want, it won’t amount to a hill of beans. The leaders only listen to members when it is to their advantage and their authority isn’t threatened.

I’m not saying that you should leave the church. That’s between you and God. What we’re talking about is a line in the sand. The church has created a system that rejects people who have sincere honest questions.

My theory is that the lds leaders are selling a “package deal” to the members, like a monthly subscription service or one of those monthly box of goodies type online services or something like that. So the members are not allowed to pick and choose what goes in the box. It’s just a take it or leave it deal.

The price for membership is 10% on your gross or net and have to always say positive things about the service in public or online. You can disagree in private groups but have to keep it to a minimum. If they let people start choosing like a buffet then it makes so they lose their ability to monetize and control the product and keep it “exclusive” and under their complete control.

What you get for subscribing is built in friends/movers/unique church culture. Ordinances that maybe work maybe don’t but better than nothing?Line of priesthood succession. Callings. Leadership. Package scriptures. And meetings. Lots of meetings.

[Shawn Henry]

Had to tell me to accept BY.

If he had to tell you to accept BY, it was a false spirit.

[simpleton]

Thank you. I am tired of the Mormon narcissism view of prophecy. We are just one of the many struggling religions out there.

Get tired all you want, it comes from the BofM "save two churches only" and "whomsover does not belong to the church of the Lamb, belongs to the great whore" . But I guess if you reject mormonism all together....

And therein lies the error. This church ain’t the church of the lamb. The church of the lamb are those who have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, which is spread through all sects…

All have the freedom to look at things through their own dark glasses.

[Shawn Henry]

This mortal probation is simply another semester, another grade on the way to our higher education. Some will graduate this class with A's. Some will get B's. Some will get C's. All are "passing" grades and prepare you for the next chapter. Some may have to repeat the course, until they get it right.

Well said.

[Shawn Henry]

I'll wait for God and the prophet and majority of the apostles to take care of it, yes.

Is it Christ's church, or not?

I enjoy Church, I enjoy the temple, I enjoy the talks and testimonies, I enjoy serving, I enjoy being there, etc.

It's not! Not when it is not built upon his gospel.

Read 3 Ne 27 again, if it is not built upon his gospel, he doesn't own it.