All is not well but I will stay anyway.

[randyps]

Is it possible that the keys have already been wrested and the gospel focus has already been shifted from the LDS to others? What would that even look like?

Nope.

Just saying. Get some revelation vs. extrapolating scriptures. Some feel good about the church some feel bad. Just feelings. I for one, have had the Lord say in his own voice to attend to my spiritual needs, repent, get back to the temple and take an eternal partner. His words, no questions, no equivocation, no explanation, just do it. BTW he had to say it 3 times to turn me around. Had to tell me to tithe. Had to tell me to ignore Oaks. Had to tell me to accept BY. Was a real pill for me at the time. but, it shows the gospel is in LDS as is acceptable ordinances. If you think you can get celestial life like god in another religion at this time. You're wrong. Not exaltation, oh maybe salvation, even terrestrial if it is a church of Christ. Telestial religions, SURE they are everywhere. and they do good and make people happy. but like in D&C 76:98 et al, you get only telestial. But that is success for most everyone on this earth. I'm not putting down anyone that obtains a glory of god and is happy with it. But don't point fingers at those that want more.

Many experiences, visions and revalations in my lifetime have brought me to understand it the exact way you explain it Duke, and yes the Lord also told me to repent and get back to the temple.

Whether or not there are bishops out there that are having affairs, or stk presidents addicted to drugs, or even a prophet that is making questionable decisions. None of that should stand between me and the temple and my relationship with God.

[Luke]

I have seen a few that have left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints due to their belief that all is not well in Zion or the church. I share that belief but I do not want to leave the church. Some have pointed to the prophecy found in D&C 112 and that it is prophesying about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in a very detrimental and negative way and is part of the reason they have left.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; 26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I am delighted that this prophesy is in D&C 112. It gives me hope for the future of the church and recognises that it is still the Lords house even if all is not well and some watchmen is not on the Lords errand. Would I want to be removed from the Lords house when things are bad? No. If it is bad in the Lord's house I would imagine it will be even worse outside.

For me the best and most preferrable option is to recognise that all is not well but still belong to the Lord's house. I may sometimes be critizised and ridiculed and avoided if I am too vocal and transparent but that is a price I am willing to pay to stay on the inside even when all is not well and our leaders are in the process of joining with Babylon. I have hope. Christ will expose the devil's cunning and I will have front row seat.

I think this could be right but not sure if about it if i’m being honest with myself. Is the Lord’s house his church idk what it could be exactly? So his house would be the Mormon church only? If the leaders are becoming babylon what should we do if they go all the way with it?

It’s the House of Israel. God’s House = God’s family.

If you understand the Adam-God Doctrine it becomes even more clear.

[TheDuke]

It’s the House of Israel. God’s House = God’s family.

If you understand the Adam-God Doctrine it becomes even more clear.

How's that Luke? How does knowing who the father is, physically, change or make other doctrines clear? You remember I was told Adam is the father. It changed how close I feel to him, but doesn't make any other doctrines more clear. What are you claiming here? Sorry, I don't see it yet.

[Luke]

It’s the House of Israel. God’s House = God’s family.

If you understand the Adam-God Doctrine it becomes even more clear.

How's that Luke? How does knowing who the father is, physically, change or make other doctrines clear? You remember I was told Adam is the father. It changed how close I feel to him, but doesn't make any other doctrines more clear. What are you claiming here? Sorry, I don't see it yet.

God’s House = God’s family.

We are God’s family — literally.

Hence you see a birthright passed down from Adam, to Seth, etc.

This is the House/Family which will be “set in order”, by the man holding the birthright. Who he is, I don’t know. Time will tell.

[fractal_light_harvest]

I have seen a few that have left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints due to their belief that all is not well in Zion or the church. I share that belief but I do not want to leave the church. Some have pointed to the prophecy found in D&C 112 and that it is prophesying about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in a very detrimental and negative way and is part of the reason they have left.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; 26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I am delighted that this prophesy is in D&C 112. It gives me hope for the future of the church and recognises that it is still the Lords house even if all is not well and some watchmen is not on the Lords errand. Would I want to be removed from the Lords house when things are bad? No. If it is bad in the Lord's house I would imagine it will be even worse outside.

For me the best and most preferrable option is to recognise that all is not well but still belong to the Lord's house. I may sometimes be critizised and ridiculed and avoided if I am too vocal and transparent but that is a price I am willing to pay to stay on the inside even when all is not well and our leaders are in the process of joining with Babylon. I have hope. Christ will expose the devil's cunning and I will have front row seat.

I think this could be right but not sure if about it if i’m being honest with myself. Is the Lord’s house his church idk what it could be exactly? So his house would be the Mormon church only? If the leaders are becoming babylon what should we do if they go all the way with it?

It’s the House of Israel. God’s House = God’s family.

If you understand the Adam-God Doctrine it becomes even more clear.

I think you’re right and I also think the scriptures make it clear that god’s house is Israel which is his family in a way. But I haven’t found anything to really show what has happened to Israel since after the new testament or book of mormon ended. So what I am trying to figure out is where is his house now, in today’s time?

I think joseph smith was part of his house but beyond that it is hard to say sometimes with all the ‘lo here and lo there’ and all that. My family and I coild really use this info but no one can say heads or tails so far that I know of??

[JohnnyL]

I have seen a few that have left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints due to their belief that all is not well in Zion or the church. I share that belief but I do not want to leave the church. Some have pointed to the prophecy found in D&C 112 and that it is prophesying about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in a very detrimental and negative way and is part of the reason they have left.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; 26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I am delighted that this prophesy is in D&C 112. It gives me hope for the future of the church and recognises that it is still the Lords house even if all is not well and some watchmen is not on the Lords errand. Would I want to be removed from the Lords house when things are bad? No. If it is bad in the Lord's house I would imagine it will be even worse outside.

For me the best and most preferrable option is to recognise that all is not well but still belong to the Lord's house. I may sometimes be critizised and ridiculed and avoided if I am too vocal and transparent but that is a price I am willing to pay to stay on the inside even when all is not well and our leaders are in the process of joining with Babylon. I have hope. Christ will expose the devil's cunning and I will have front row seat.

I read this as the many who say they know Jesus, they have the Spirit, but don't pay tithing and sometimes attend the temple, maybe attend church but tell everyone how bad it is and how lacking the Spirit is, etc.

[JohnnyL]

Joseph didn’t stay with a burning ship, nor claim a dilapidated barn…
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/josephs-last-dreams

IMO, simply stating that it is upon His house that it begins, doesn’t mean He lays any claim to it once it has become corrupt. The Lord also taught that He’d remove the fulness of the gospel from those who are wicked and change His doctrine.

Also, please consider this, if and when the church decides to stop doing so many awful things, what is to prevent you from joining again with them? Heck, there are some very basic principles that the church could teach that would have me back in the pews this Sunday.

I think the ONLY reason to stay or leave is if the promptings came from the Lord.

Was this dream first hand or second hand or third hand.
I believe things are allowed to transpire as they are to weed out the tares, from the leaders to the lowly layman. All things I have read in prophecy and predictions are that His "church" "House" etc, is in very bad shape, lead to the brinks of hell, imposters for leaders, many tares among the sheep, gospel net gathers all kinds of good and bad, probably much more bad, rampant apostasy, in the church, leaders removed and replaced, etc.
The drama lies with the church, I do not care how evil and corrupt things get inside, it is JC's church and He will set it back in order in His own due time and way. No one has to partake of the wickedness.
"Be still and know that I am God".
Some like to say/think that the church is not important and that it does not matter whether you are a member or not, if that is true then why did Joseph start it through revelation from God, and God recognized and claimed it.

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with brighteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

"mother of harlots" all of the breakoffs of the great whore.

Some believe that the LDS church is the "Great whore" but I do not, as to me, Nephi's description fits perfectly with existing conditions today. Although he saw a panoramic extended vision of not just a moment in time but of a series of rolling events. But it seems to very clearly point out a perfect description of the two churches. At this point and time, no power has descended upon the saints. But, just wait and see what happens after this OMAS comes and cleanses the church, removes the "false shepards" and makes it shine like the sun.
At the moment we have just what we deserve and want, (as a whole) we "love to have it so", but the fake promises of today will all fade away when "The great and Marvelous" work begins.
But let me emphasize again, God will save and "redeem" and set back in order, His church.

Amen.

AFAIK, President Smith rarely received any revelations by dreams (actually, I've never heard of ANY of his revelations received through a dream). And AFAIK, he never called this one a revelation.

[David13]

For me the line was crossed what, 3 years ago with the "Covid!!!" nonsense.

You can't go to church you will die.

You can't go to church, you will kill grannie.

You can go to church, but you must put a rag over your snoot and avoid other people like the plague.

But also the superficiality and shallowness of the people did contribute.

And I was out.
dc

[JohnnyL]

Hopefully we all have lines that if crossed, we won’t stay. I know I do.

I hope I don't.

[JohnnyL]

Honestly I don't know why we make it so complicated. I feel like the scriptures are pretty plain: 1 John 3: 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John, this is a perfect example of oversimplification, pure and simple. It is utterly BS as interpreted. It says if you're born again (like you feel you are) then you cannot sin. No one is perfect but Jesus, so if you're saying no one ever is born again ok. Peter was born again, confessed Jesus then denied him 3 times! He SINNED! He repented and was forgiven. but that is not what you're saying here.

Some mumbo about being born again but living in the telestial world and nothing you do again is ever a sin!

Poppycock. Sorry. the scripture is true but it means you can overcome sin and in the next life you will be perfect. There is no one perfect (sinless) in this life except Jesus and there are many (well lots but few according to Jesus, relatively) that have been born again, yet they sin.... Read Peter about C&E, even then even the elect can sin, but will need to pay the price to be perfect, but they will become such.

It is complex. If you think you can make it that simple, then it isn't others that are deceived IMO. Happy you're born again BTW, happy for you. but if you're claiming to be sinless as in not committing sin since being reborn, vs. being sinless for "repenting to damned fast" per Golden Kimball. Then you are deceived.

You're missing the forest for the trees. And Keep condemning your self.

Peter was not born again until AFTER he Denied Jesus. No where was he shown to have been born again beforehand- he didn't even get the Holy Ghot until after the resurrection. Udnerstanding the sequence of biblical stories will help with understanding.

What would happen, Duke, if you read the entire context of hte the letter rather than just taking that one verse and trying to wreck it? When was the last time you read that entire letter from John? My point wasn't even about sin, it was about who is the family of God.

But to your point. John is saying who ever is born of God doesn't seek to commit sin. Please read the verses in context rather than shooting from the hip- another word for that translation si whoever seeks to construct sin, or to create sin or practice sin.. it is the same word used in verse 9.

Finally you condemn yourself by thinking you are always going to have to sin. Paul and Peter, and JOhn all say if you walk in the Spriit, there is no sin in you. So walk in the Spriit. Jesus said to Walk as He walked. Nephi (if you believe him) said God won't give a commandment unless there is a way to fulfill that commandment. So rather than express unbelief, I would suggest crying out to God for mercy so you can believe and stop living in a lower condition than God desires you to live- this isn't a judgment of you, but it is an invitation to live higher. Otherwise you are living below what Jesus paid for- don't do that.. to yourself or others.

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the cliving God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Being perfect vs. being perfected in Christ. April GC had a good talk on that I recommend.

[JohnnyL]

Is it possible that the keys have already been wrested and the gospel focus has already been shifted from the LDS to others? What would that even look like?

Not only is it possible, it’s exactly what happened.

Joseph Smith and others said that the Fullness of the Priesthood and the Kingdom had been established, never to be taken away again — but the LDS Church isn’t perpetuating those things. God sought another people.

“. . . if Zion will not purify herself, so as to be approved of in all things, in His sight, He will seek another people; for His work will go on until Israel is gathered, and they who will not hear His voice, must expect to feel His wrath.” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <14 January 1833> page 18)

“We receive the Priesthood and power and authority. If we make a bad use of that Priesthood, do you not see that the day will come when God will reckon with us, and he will take it from us and give it to those who will make better use of it.” — Heber C. Kimball (Journal of Discourses <13 December 1857> page 125)
 
“But the day will come when the Lord will choose a people out of this people, upon whom he will bestow his choicest blessings.” — Heber C. Kimball (Journal of Discourses vol. 11 <6 October 1865) page 145)

I see all those quotes in a very different understanding. You are seeing outside; I see inside.

"If." and "...if", not "When."

///
"IF... He will seek another people..."

"[IF] we make a bad use of that Priesthood, do you not see that the day will come when God will reckon with us, and he will take it from us and give it to those who will make better use of it."

And yet, maybe he has started. Look at Church members all over the world who have much harder lives, harder times living the gospel, with fewer resources, and often do better at it, with more joy. People who aren't hypocrites with the gospel or the priesthood, but are humble, repent, and seek to do God's will.

///
“But the day will come when the Lord will choose a people out of this people, upon whom he will bestow his choicest blessings.”

People who aren't hypocrites with the gospel or the priesthood, but are humble, repent, and seek to do God's will.

DaC 131 comes to mind.

[JohnnyL]

Is it possible that the keys have already been wrested and the gospel focus has already been shifted from the LDS to others? What would that even look like?

Nope.

Just saying. Get some revelation vs. extrapolating scriptures. Some feel good about the church some feel bad. Just feelings. I for one, have had the Lord say in his own voice to attend to my spiritual needs, repent, get back to the temple and take an eternal partner. His words, no questions, no equivocation, no explanation, just do it. BTW he had to say it 3 times to turn me around. Had to tell me to tithe. Had to tell me to ignore Oaks. Had to tell me to accept BY. Was a real pill for me at the time. but, it shows the gospel is in LDS as is acceptable ordinances. If you think you can get celestial life like god in another religion at this time. You're wrong. Not exaltation, oh maybe salvation, even terrestrial if it is a church of Christ. Telestial religions, SURE they are everywhere. and they do good and make people happy. but like in D&C 76:98 et al, you get only telestial. But that is success for most everyone on this earth. I'm not putting down anyone that obtains a glory of god and is happy with it. But don't point fingers at those that want more.

Many experiences, visions and revalations in my lifetime have brought me to understand it the exact way you explain it Duke, and yes the Lord also told me to repent and get back to the temple.

Whether or not there are bishops out there that are having affairs, or stk presidents addicted to drugs, or even a prophet that is making questionable decisions. None of that should stand between me and the temple and my relationship with God.

YES! That's it, right there.

[Luke]

Is it possible that the keys have already been wrested and the gospel focus has already been shifted from the LDS to others? What would that even look like?

Not only is it possible, it’s exactly what happened.

Joseph Smith and others said that the Fullness of the Priesthood and the Kingdom had been established, never to be taken away again — but the LDS Church isn’t perpetuating those things. God sought another people.

“. . . if Zion will not purify herself, so as to be approved of in all things, in His sight, He will seek another people; for His work will go on until Israel is gathered, and they who will not hear His voice, must expect to feel His wrath.” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <14 January 1833> page 18)

“We receive the Priesthood and power and authority. If we make a bad use of that Priesthood, do you not see that the day will come when God will reckon with us, and he will take it from us and give it to those who will make better use of it.” — Heber C. Kimball (Journal of Discourses <13 December 1857> page 125)
 
“But the day will come when the Lord will choose a people out of this people, upon whom he will bestow his choicest blessings.” — Heber C. Kimball (Journal of Discourses vol. 11 <6 October 1865) page 145)

I see all those quotes in a very different understanding. You are seeing outside; I see inside.

"If." and "...if", not "When."

///
"IF... He will seek another people..."

"[IF] we make a bad use of that Priesthood, do you not see that the day will come when God will reckon with us, and he will take it from us and give it to those who will make better use of it."

And yet, maybe he has started. Look at Church members all over the world who have much harder lives, harder times living the gospel, with fewer resources, and often do better at it, with more joy. People who aren't hypocrites with the gospel or the priesthood, but are humble, repent, and seek to do God's will.

///
“But the day will come when the Lord will choose a people out of this people, upon whom he will bestow his choicest blessings.”

People who aren't hypocrites with the gospel or the priesthood, but are humble, repent, and seek to do God's will.

DaC 131 comes to mind.

Ok, here’s a few definitive “when” statements:

“Let this Church which is called the kingdom of God on the earth; we will sommons the first presidency, the twelve, the high counsel, the Bishoprick, and all the elders of Israel, suppose we summons them to appear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings God has given to us. On that very day, and hour we should do so, the priesthood is taken from this Church and kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain the Church must go to destruction, — we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the priesthood until that curse be removed.” — Brigham Young (Complete Discourses of Brigham Young vol. 1 <5 February 1852> page 470)

“Plural marriage will end when the Church had gone to the Devil or the Priesthood taken from this people — then God would give it to another people.” — Heber C. Kimball (Heber C. Kimball sermon, 1 February 1849, in D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power page 747)

“Some quietly listen to those who speak against the Lord’s servants, against his anointed, against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed. Such persons have half-a-dozen devils with them all the time. You might as well deny ‘Mormonism,’ and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose that doctrine, and the whole of them would be damned. What are you opposing it for? It is a principle that God has revealed for the salvation of the human family. He revealed it to Joseph the Prophet in this our dispensation; and that which he revealed he designs to have carried out by his people.” — Heber C. Kimball (Journal of Discourses vol. 5 <12 October 1856> pages 203-204)

“The folly of entertaining for one moment the proposition to abandon polygamy is so apparent to a true Latter-day Saint that it is hardly worth mention. It was not Joseph Smith nor Brigham Young; neither was it John Taylor that gave the revelation on Celestial Marriage: it was God himself, and he has said ‘My word shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.’ The entire Church and all of its Priesthood, with the Presidency at the head might motion and vote against this principle until doomsday with just one effect, (namely,) to vote themselves away from the fellowship of the Holy Ghost from the possession of their Priesthood, and to find themselves very speedily outside the Church and Kingdom of God; while he would raise up others that would honor and observe his law.” (Editorial, Deseret News vol. 34 no. 11 <1 April 1885> page 164)

“What would be necessary to bring about the result nearest the hearts of the opponents of ‘Mormonism,’ more properly termed the Gospel of the Son of God? Simply to renounce, abrogate or apostatize from the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in its fullness. Were the Church to do that as an entirety God would reject the Saints as a body. The authority of the Priesthood would be withdrawn, with its gifts and powers, and there would be no more heavenly recognition of the ministrations among the people. The heavens would permanently withdraw themselves, and the Lord would raise up another people of greater valor and stability, for his work must, according to His unalterable decrees, go forward, for the time of the second coming of the Savior is near, even at the doors. Therefore the Saints have no alternative but to stand by the truth and sustain what the heavens have established and propose to perpetuate. This they will do, come life or death, freedom or imprisonment, and there is, so far as we can observe, no use to attempt to disguise this fact.” — Charles W. Penrose (“The Only Consistent Course”, Deseret Evening News <23 April 1885> page 1)

[Wolfwoman]

Hopefully we all have lines that if crossed, we won’t stay. I know I do.

I hope I don't.

You wouldn’t leave the church if they proclaimed any of the following?

Jesus was not God, or the son of God.
Jesus did not atone for men’s sins.
Same sex marriage is allowed in the temple.
The Book of Mormon is a nice story, but not historically true.
Women can be ordained to the priesthood.

Well, you do you.

[fractal_light_harvest]

Hopefully we all have lines that if crossed, we won’t stay. I know I do.

I hope I don't.

You wouldn’t leave the church if they proclaimed any of the following?

Jesus was not God, or the son of God.
Jesus did not atone for men’s sins.
Same sex marriage is allowed in the temple.
The Book of Mormon is a nice story, but not historically true.
Women can be ordained to the priesthood.

Well, you do you.

This is also what makes me nervous too honestly. It seems the church has lots of different slogans and doctrinal fads and rationales to support its different agendas. And these fads seem to be becoming more influenced by the world so what happens if this is allowed to continue? It seems like there are factions in the church who push different ideas and programs to me.

[jdt]

Is it possible that the keys have already been wrested and the gospel focus has already been shifted from the LDS to others? What would that even look like?

Nope.

Just saying. Get some revelation vs. extrapolating scriptures. Some feel good about the church some feel bad. Just feelings. I for one, have had the Lord say in his own voice to attend to my spiritual needs, repent, get back to the temple and take an eternal partner. His words, no questions, no equivocation, no explanation, just do it. BTW he had to say it 3 times to turn me around. Had to tell me to tithe. Had to tell me to ignore Oaks. Had to tell me to accept BY. Was a real pill for me at the time. but, it shows the gospel is in LDS as is acceptable ordinances. If you think you can get celestial life like god in another religion at this time. You're wrong. Not exaltation, oh maybe salvation, even terrestrial if it is a church of Christ. Telestial religions, SURE they are everywhere. and they do good and make people happy. but like in D&C 76:98 et al, you get only telestial. But that is success for most everyone on this earth. I'm not putting down anyone that obtains a glory of god and is happy with it. But don't point fingers at those that want more.

Hey if people feel they are obtaining God's voice, please go and do as directed. I am not suggesting otherwise. Hogmeister said he saw problems, but stayed because of D&C 112, and seems to take some comfort in the idea that by staying he is awaiting the day when the house is set in order and will be part of it. Is that a reasonable interpretation? Sure. Is it the only one? Well, I gave an alternate possibility. I am sure there are others that are also reasonable. Which one is right? Well as you say, get some revelation. Sometimes people don't go and get said revelation because they don't even know that the there are other options on the table.

Also you answered my first question, but did not answer the second: what would that even look like? I will ask it again this time to you directly.

[blitzinstripes]

Joseph didn’t stay with a burning ship, nor claim a dilapidated barn…
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/josephs-last-dreams

IMO, simply stating that it is upon His house that it begins, doesn’t mean He lays any claim to it once it has become corrupt. The Lord also taught that He’d remove the fulness of the gospel from those who are wicked and change His doctrine.

Also, please consider this, if and when the church decides to stop doing so many awful things, what is to prevent you from joining again with them? Heck, there are some very basic principles that the church could teach that would have me back in the pews this Sunday.

I think the ONLY reason to stay or leave is if the promptings came from the Lord.

Was this dream first hand or second hand or third hand.
I believe things are allowed to transpire as they are to weed out the tares, from the leaders to the lowly layman. All things I have read in prophecy and predictions are that His "church" "House" etc, is in very bad shape, lead to the brinks of hell, imposters for leaders, many tares among the sheep, gospel net gathers all kinds of good and bad, probably much more bad, rampant apostasy, in the church, leaders removed and replaced, etc.
The drama lies with the church, I do not care how evil and corrupt things get inside, it is JC's church and He will set it back in order in His own due time and way. No one has to partake of the wickedness.
"Be still and know that I am God".
Some like to say/think that the church is not important and that it does not matter whether you are a member or not, if that is true then why did Joseph start it through revelation from God, and God recognized and claimed it.

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with brighteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

"mother of harlots" all of the breakoffs of the great whore.

Some believe that the LDS church is the "Great whore" but I do not, as to me, Nephi's description fits perfectly with existing conditions today. Although he saw a panoramic extended vision of not just a moment in time but of a series of rolling events. But it seems to very clearly point out a perfect description of the two churches. At this point and time, no power has descended upon the saints. But, just wait and see what happens after this OMAS comes and cleanses the church, removes the "false shepards" and makes it shine like the sun.
At the moment we have just what we deserve and want, (as a whole) we "love to have it so", but the fake promises of today will all fade away when "The great and Marvelous" work begins.
But let me emphasize again, God will save and "redeem" and set back in order, His church.

To be fair, the church of the Lamb of God includes all righteous, faithful Christians everywhere. These will NOT be burned at his coming.

So to clarify, the Church of Christ includes Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, etc....It becomes very difficult if not impossible to identify them based upon creeds and denominations. These people belong to Christ. NOT the devil. The COJCOLDS is but one small part of the people who will be taken up with Christ and subsequently dwell with him in peace on the earth during the Millennium. Why are Mormons so quick to cast all other believers, disciples of Christ in with the Church of the Devil? Do I really need to post numerous doctrinal LDS quotes to support this, or can we all agree that they don't fit the mold of "Church of the Devil"?

[Hogmeister]

Just so we are clear. The judgment begins on the family/house of God.... not "just" the LDS Church. 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Thank you. I am tired of the Mormon narcissism view of prophecy. We are just one of the many struggling religions out there.

I agree with you in large part. However, I believe the midst of the Lords house refer to the people of God where the most light has been given. The people that should know better than any other. That was the Jews at Jerusalem at the time of Peter but I believe it is the LDS thus far in the latter days.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Hopefully we all have lines that if crossed, we won’t stay. I know I do.

I hope I don't.

Wait... you have no lines? Let's take an extreme example. Let's say SRA is rampant among the top leaders. You stay, no matter what?

[Reluctant Watchman]

To answer the OP, I honestly don't care whether a person stays or leaves. That is a personal decision. What I care about is the doctrines and principles that elevate the human experience. I care about Christ's teachings. Hence why we dive into all the various topics here on the forum: restoration, BoM, priesthood, tithing, church history (which defines doctrine), temples, ordinances, etc.

And, to some degree, we cannot separate the "gospel" or the "church" from these men. The only reason a doctrine or practice exists in the church is because a man taught it in one form or another. And... they pass it off as Christ's doctrine. They make these doctrines or policies as commandments.

[Bjǫrnúlfr]

Hopefully we all have lines that if crossed, we won’t stay. I know I do.

I hope I don't.

You wouldn’t leave the church if they proclaimed any of the following?

Jesus was not God, or the son of God.
Jesus did not atone for men’s sins.
Same sex marriage is allowed in the temple.
The Book of Mormon is a nice story, but not historically true.
Women can be ordained to the priesthood.

Well, you do you.

I would go into deep inactivity if the church did any of these things. Of this list allowing same sex marriage and ordaining women seem to be the most likely. I see no possibility that the church would do the first two.

[Fight for the right]

I have seen a few that have left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints due to their belief that all is not well in Zion or the church. I share that belief but I do not want to leave the church. Some have pointed to the prophecy found in D&C 112 and that it is prophesying about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in a very detrimental and negative way and is part of the reason they have left.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; 26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I am delighted that this prophesy is in D&C 112. It gives me hope for the future of the church and recognises that it is still the Lords house even if all is not well and some watchmen is not on the Lords errand. Would I want to be removed from the Lords house when things are bad? No. If it is bad in the Lord's house I would imagine it will be even worse outside.

For me the best and most preferrable option is to recognise that all is not well but still belong to the Lord's house. I may sometimes be critizised and ridiculed and avoided if I am too vocal and transparent but that is a price I am willing to pay to stay on the inside even when all is not well and our leaders are in the process of joining with Babylon. I have hope. Christ will expose the devil's cunning and I will have front row seat.

Right there with you.

[TheDuke]

Joseph didn’t stay with a burning ship, nor claim a dilapidated barn…
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/josephs-last-dreams

IMO, simply stating that it is upon His house that it begins, doesn’t mean He lays any claim to it once it has become corrupt. The Lord also taught that He’d remove the fulness of the gospel from those who are wicked and change His doctrine.

Also, please consider this, if and when the church decides to stop doing so many awful things, what is to prevent you from joining again with them? Heck, there are some very basic principles that the church could teach that would have me back in the pews this Sunday.

I think the ONLY reason to stay or leave is if the promptings came from the Lord.

Was this dream first hand or second hand or third hand.
I believe things are allowed to transpire as they are to weed out the tares, from the leaders to the lowly layman. All things I have read in prophecy and predictions are that His "church" "House" etc, is in very bad shape, lead to the brinks of hell, imposters for leaders, many tares among the sheep, gospel net gathers all kinds of good and bad, probably much more bad, rampant apostasy, in the church, leaders removed and replaced, etc.
The drama lies with the church, I do not care how evil and corrupt things get inside, it is JC's church and He will set it back in order in His own due time and way. No one has to partake of the wickedness.
"Be still and know that I am God".
Some like to say/think that the church is not important and that it does not matter whether you are a member or not, if that is true then why did Joseph start it through revelation from God, and God recognized and claimed it.

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with brighteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

"mother of harlots" all of the breakoffs of the great whore.

Some believe that the LDS church is the "Great whore" but I do not, as to me, Nephi's description fits perfectly with existing conditions today. Although he saw a panoramic extended vision of not just a moment in time but of a series of rolling events. But it seems to very clearly point out a perfect description of the two churches. At this point and time, no power has descended upon the saints. But, just wait and see what happens after this OMAS comes and cleanses the church, removes the "false shepards" and makes it shine like the sun.
At the moment we have just what we deserve and want, (as a whole) we "love to have it so", but the fake promises of today will all fade away when "The great and Marvelous" work begins.
But let me emphasize again, God will save and "redeem" and set back in order, His church.

To be fair, the church of the Lamb of God includes all righteous, faithful Christians everywhere. These will NOT be burned at his coming.

So to clarify, the Church of Christ includes Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, etc....It becomes very difficult if not impossible to identify them based upon creeds and denominations. These people belong to Christ. NOT the devil. The COJCOLDS is but one small part of the people who will be taken up with Christ and subsequently dwell with him in peace on the earth during the Millennium. Why are Mormons so quick to cast all other believers, disciples of Christ in with the Church of the Devil? Do I really need to post numerous doctrinal LDS quotes to support this, or can we all agree that they don't fit the mold of "Church of the Devil"?

True, and "in my father's house there are many mansions".

[nightlight]

I simply don't believe in LDS doctrine.
It doesn't line up with scripture/Spirit

"Sealing" people is the crux of LDS doctrine. And it is unscriptural at the very least,damning at the most.

To seal women and "children" as if they are free from the choices a human must make is insanity. To think mortals are needed to save dead people is beyond hubris

The Book of Mormon stands in contrast to the LDS theology

The New Testament stands in contrast to the LDS doctrine

"You need more than Fire&HolyGhost&Endurance to live with God......you need to know the secret handshakes and secret hand signs. You need to marry multiple women....you need to swear by heaven to obey our mortal ruler....you need to etc"

This is why LDS conduct is not firm this in co-opted society.

IT IS NOT BUILT UPON THE ROCK

COVID nonsense was a taste of the Beast, and your godly mouthpieces told you to follow the wise&worldly Beast to save our society and bring back it's bastardized normalcy

What year were LDS speaking truth? The late 1800s ? The 1920s? The 1950s? The 1990s? 2020?

It's not there

3Nephi11:

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.

32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

41 Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.

++++++++++++++++


16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

[blitzinstripes]

Was this dream first hand or second hand or third hand.
I believe things are allowed to transpire as they are to weed out the tares, from the leaders to the lowly layman. All things I have read in prophecy and predictions are that His "church" "House" etc, is in very bad shape, lead to the brinks of hell, imposters for leaders, many tares among the sheep, gospel net gathers all kinds of good and bad, probably much more bad, rampant apostasy, in the church, leaders removed and replaced, etc.
The drama lies with the church, I do not care how evil and corrupt things get inside, it is JC's church and He will set it back in order in His own due time and way. No one has to partake of the wickedness.
"Be still and know that I am God".
Some like to say/think that the church is not important and that it does not matter whether you are a member or not, if that is true then why did Joseph start it through revelation from God, and God recognized and claimed it.

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with brighteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

"mother of harlots" all of the breakoffs of the great whore.

Some believe that the LDS church is the "Great whore" but I do not, as to me, Nephi's description fits perfectly with existing conditions today. Although he saw a panoramic extended vision of not just a moment in time but of a series of rolling events. But it seems to very clearly point out a perfect description of the two churches. At this point and time, no power has descended upon the saints. But, just wait and see what happens after this OMAS comes and cleanses the church, removes the "false shepards" and makes it shine like the sun.
At the moment we have just what we deserve and want, (as a whole) we "love to have it so", but the fake promises of today will all fade away when "The great and Marvelous" work begins.
But let me emphasize again, God will save and "redeem" and set back in order, His church.

To be fair, the church of the Lamb of God includes all righteous, faithful Christians everywhere. These will NOT be burned at his coming.

So to clarify, the Church of Christ includes Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, etc....It becomes very difficult if not impossible to identify them based upon creeds and denominations. These people belong to Christ. NOT the devil. The COJCOLDS is but one small part of the people who will be taken up with Christ and subsequently dwell with him in peace on the earth during the Millennium. Why are Mormons so quick to cast all other believers, disciples of Christ in with the Church of the Devil? Do I really need to post numerous doctrinal LDS quotes to support this, or can we all agree that they don't fit the mold of "Church of the Devil"?

True, and "in my father's house there are many mansions".

There is NO end to eternal progression. If you think this little blip in time decides the ultimate and final measure of your progress in eternity, you are sorely mistaken.

This mortal probation is simply another semester, another grade on the way to our higher education. Some will graduate this class with A's. Some will get B's.Some will get C's. All are "passing" grades and prepare you for the next chapter. Some may have to repeat the course, until they get it right.

I simply do not buy into the Mormon theology of being "stuck" in some lower level of a kingdom for eternity. The truth is closer to the concept of "we all get there eventually", in our own time.

One thing I know, is that as children of God, our potential and ability to grow and progress is UNLIMITED. The very notion that someone could possibly inherit a lower glory within the Celestial kingdom, dwell there in the presence of Almighty God for eons of time, and NOT grow and progress beyond their initial glory is preposterous. Likewise that anyone could inherit a terrestrial glory, dwell there among the angels and enjoy the personal visitation and ministry of the Son of God, for eons of time and fail to progress to the next level is ridiculous. It's one of many false doctrines perpetuated by the LDS. Such a narrow, diminutive, and disappointing view of eternity, and so degrading to our Creator.

I suppose that for a child in Kindergarten, it's difficult to imagine much outside their little sphere. ABC's, reading time,recess, punch and cookies. So much more learning and growth lies in store. In fact, our learning NEVER ends in this mortal life. Which certainly means that to an even greater extent, our ability to progress and grow throughout eternity NEVER ends.

I know this truth independent of anyone else, or anything else. The Lord has instilled this truth upon my heart. I honestly couldn't care less for your projections, endless narcissism, and your immeasurable ego. Which is why I generally roll my eyes and keep scrolling whenever I see your replies to ANYTHING on this forum.

You may be John Wayne in your own mind, but you're just not that important.