All is not well but I will stay anyway.

[John Tavner]

Wow, you have your interpretation. For, example show where Peter had to deny Jesus to be be "born again". That is doctrine pulled out of the air. I have read the entire thing and understand it quite well. You have a right to your interpretation, but it just isn't very accurate IMO. but if it gives you satisfaction stay with it. But don't condemn others that see much more of the forest. and even surrounding terrain.

No it isn't- what does being born again mean, Duke?

Guess I was wrong saying that I accepted you'd been born again then. I've been and I know what it is and what it isn't. You seem to define it very strangely. Here in this case Peter already had been told that by Jesus days before his death. So, you're timing and assessments are not based on the full story. Hard to chase this down' when you keep jumping ships. "blessed art thou Simon ........" Anyway have a happy day.

You still haven't answered what being born again is- and I haven't condemned anyone.

Let's start with Jesus' words found in John 3. Here are some more: John 20, Titus 3, 1 Peter 1, 1 John 2, Acts 2, Romans 8- this is all including admitting who Jesus is.

It's nothing against you, but the teachers who taught you... They shouldn't have been teaching.

By the way blessed means "fortunate" or God extending a benefit. One can be blessed without being born again.

[John Tavner]

For those who don't know. Jesus says one must be born of water and the Spirit to be born again. This is found in John 3.

So we have baptism of water and baptism of the Holy SPirit.

Peter didn't receive the Holy GHost until AFTER the resurrection. See John 20- notice it is after the resurrection (and Acts 2, I think). Peter even talks about this in 1 Peter 1:3 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

[TheDuke]

It's nothing against you, but the teachers who taught you... They shouldn't have been teaching.

This is plain BS. I was not taught by men, I was taught by the Holy Spirit! I learned what I know about this topic directly from God. You need to be more careful in asserting yourself in wrong places John.

I don't want to continue this as you seem a bit too fragile to continue, telling me I'm learning from people you've never met and assuming things about me that are 180 out. Have a good day.

[Reluctant Watchman]

This is plain BS. I was not taught by men, I was taught by the Holy Spirit! I learned what I know about this topic directly from God. You need to be more careful in asserting yourself in wrong places John.

I chuckled at this comment. When I made the same assertion to you on another thread, that I had been taught by the Spirit... remember what you said? Haha, it was quite ironic, to say the least after your response here.

I'm pretty sure there was a hearty BS somewhere in your response.

Funny how we see the world w/ our own rose-color glasses.

[John Tavner]

It's nothing against you, but the teachers who taught you... They shouldn't have been teaching.

This is plain BS. I was not taught by men, I was taught by the Holy Spirit! I learned what I know about this topic directly from God. You need to be more careful in asserting yourself in wrong places John.

I don't want to continue this as you seem a bit too fragile to continue, telling me I'm learning from people you've never met and assuming things about me that are 180 out. Have a good day.

Please tell me how I am wrong. You have yet to tell me what being born again means in your mind. You have called my beliefs strange, you have told me I"m not born again, you have told me I"m fragile, you have thrown out a few other ad-hominems, but nothing relating to what being Born again really is...
Jesus Said to be born again, one must be born of water and the Spirit. I'm not feeling fragile at all. I feel no anger or frustration or negative emotion. Your responses fail to engage with me in telling me what you believe being born again is and appear more emotional than anything- no scripture has been offered by you except "blessed art thou Simon Barjona...." which is God saying "hey Your blessed because God showed you that I am the Messiah.. a few verses later, Jesus calls Simon Satan. Your understanding is not correct if you believe Peter was born again before the resurrection. Regardless of how much you gnash your teeth.and project upon me- . Whatever or whoever taught you that being born again does not include the Holy Ghost and receiving it (and I don't limit it to hands having to be laid on your head), is not of God- I'm not saying that because I think you are a bad guy- that belief you hold to just isn't from God. I have nothing against you, but I"m also not backing down from that truth- more for your own good than any pride on my part. And to be clear, just because you have a wrong belief doesn't mean you aren't born again- just that your belief about it is wrong.

And just in case there was some emotional reading into what I said- To be clear I didn't say Peter HAD to deny Jesus to be born again- that is an odd interpretation what what I wrote.. I said He wasn't born again when or at the time of when he denied Jesus. There is a difference. One is not required to deny Jesus to be born again- that is a weird doctrine, but AFTER Peter denied Jesus and AFTER Jesus was resurrected- when thye were in a house, and Jesus told them to receive the Holy Ghost , that moment is when Peter was born again.

Edited: to change weird to strange and the devil to Satan to better reflect the actual quotes.

[Durzan]

Honestly, there are times when I think everyone is pulling nonsense out of their butts. This is one of those times...

[John Tavner]

Honestly, there are times when I think everyone is pulling nonsense out of their butts. This is one of those times...

I'm happy to go ahead try to explain it even more clearly if you would like- I just need guidance on what you think I said that doesn't make sense- if this comment was about me... if not, then please disregard.
I believe this topic is important enough to continue because it deals with basic foundations of Christ and who He is and What He does for us- the water and spiritual baptisms are typologies of Christ and what He did and the salvation we receive from Him.

[3Nephi18:25]

I used to feel similar to Hogmeister. Had continued to attend our ward and stake meetings.

A little over a month ago, we started asking the Lord every weekend if He wanted us to go to church with our ward. Each weekend we get a “no.” It’s been an interesting experience and helped me recognize I need to look at my intentions and reasons for staying.

[TheDuke]

It's nothing against you, but the teachers who taught you... They shouldn't have been teaching.

This is plain BS. I was not taught by men, I was taught by the Holy Spirit! I learned what I know about this topic directly from God. You need to be more careful in asserting yourself in wrong places John.

I don't want to continue this as you seem a bit too fragile to continue, telling me I'm learning from people you've never met and assuming things about me that are 180 out. Have a good day.

Please tell me how I am wrong. You have yet to tell me what being born again means in your mind. You have called my beliefs strange, you have told me I"m not born again, you have told me I"m fragile, you have thrown out a few other ad-hominems, but nothing relating to what being Born again really is...
Jesus Said to be born again, one must be born of water and the Spirit. I'm not feeling fragile at all. I feel no anger or frustration or negative emotion. Your responses fail to engage with me in telling me what you believe being born again is and appear more emotional than anything- no scripture has been offered by you except "blessed art thou Simon Barjona...." which is God saying "hey Your blessed because God showed you that I am the Messiah.. a few verses later, Jesus calls Simon Satan. Your understanding is not correct if you believe Peter was born again before the resurrection. Regardless of how much you gnash your teeth.and project upon me- . Whatever or whoever taught you that being born again does not include the Holy Ghost and receiving it (and I don't limit it to hands having to be laid on your head), is not of God- I'm not saying that because I think you are a bad guy- that belief you hold to just isn't from God. I have nothing against you, but I"m also not backing down from that truth- more for your own good than any pride on my part. And to be clear, just because you have a wrong belief doesn't mean you aren't born again- just that your belief about it is wrong.

And just in case there was some emotional reading into what I said- To be clear I didn't say Peter HAD to deny Jesus to be born again- that is an odd interpretation what what I wrote.. I said He wasn't born again when or at the time of when he denied Jesus. There is a difference. One is not required to deny Jesus to be born again- that is a weird doctrine, but AFTER Peter denied Jesus and AFTER Jesus was resurrected- when thye were in a house, and Jesus told them to receive the Holy Ghost , that moment is when Peter was born again.

Edited: to change weird to strange and the devil to Satan to better reflect the actual quotes.

I don't see any reason to continue this conversation as it isn't getting anywhere. However, I will give you the definition of "born again" so that you can learn a bit deeper.

there are two meanings and it is a process but one with definite steps that can be measured. While to most it is quite general and vague it is in fact very clear in eternal progression.

When Jesus told Nicodemus how to see the kingdom of god he said to be "born again". when Nicodemus didn't understand he simplified the discussion to being born of the spirit. He never did say you didn't need to be truly born again. So, we have two definitions or steps. The first is being born again of the spirit. The second is being born again physically as a celestial child in the celestial kingdom to heavenly parents. The first is working through telestial to terrestrial life to be born again as a celestial offspring.

God's work is two fold, to bring to pass (1) the immortality and (2) the eternal life of man. The immortal part is being born again as celestial offspring the eternal life part is exaltation. You cannot begin exaltation until you are born again in the celestial realm and become an heir of the father, a joint heir with Christ, a member of the church of the Firstborn (Christ), etc.... That is the true meaning of "born again" that Jesus began with Nicodemus.

However, like his parables he simplified the definition and went back to "the gate" that few find. The process is first to repent, be baptized by water, accept Christ "enter the gate" and work to become perfected. The first part of being spiritually born again, then is accepting Christ and becoming new as in beliefs, habits, following commandments, etc.... This leads from telestial order to terrestrial order. Those following Christ and trying to become perfect. Many here and in Christendom in general have had this "born again" experience and have tasted of the benefits of the atonement and accepting Christ.

You become a child of Christ. You're not literally reborn as his offspring, this is a spiritual rebirth or born again. He becomes your father. He then, to these that get here is really both the father and the son as he is the son by atonement and the father by your baptism and loyalty.

After working through the terrestrial state by trying your best to become as Christ would have you, you reach a point where you are justified and sanctified by the blood of Christ (after accepting and working hard to become perfect). You then become a just man made perfect. You become elect, obtain your calling and election and it is made sure. You are given the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. This is a second overcoming of the spirit and what many are looking for as their "born again" experience. It is what Peter was talking about. It is the final phase of living in a terrestrial state.

Then you are literally born again in the celestial kingdom as a literal offspring of the father.

There is much much more that I've been shown, but this answers your question. If you asked honestly then this should suit your query, even if you don't accept it. If you do accept it, I'm happy to provide much more but even this seems a mystery to most, it did to Nicodemus. But not to Joseph or BTW for those detractor, BY for that matter. Not to mention Peter and Paul.

[John Tavner]

This is plain BS. I was not taught by men, I was taught by the Holy Spirit! I learned what I know about this topic directly from God. You need to be more careful in asserting yourself in wrong places John.

I don't want to continue this as you seem a bit too fragile to continue, telling me I'm learning from people you've never met and assuming things about me that are 180 out. Have a good day.

Please tell me how I am wrong. You have yet to tell me what being born again means in your mind. You have called my beliefs strange, you have told me I"m not born again, you have told me I"m fragile, you have thrown out a few other ad-hominems, but nothing relating to what being Born again really is...
Jesus Said to be born again, one must be born of water and the Spirit. I'm not feeling fragile at all. I feel no anger or frustration or negative emotion. Your responses fail to engage with me in telling me what you believe being born again is and appear more emotional than anything- no scripture has been offered by you except "blessed art thou Simon Barjona...." which is God saying "hey Your blessed because God showed you that I am the Messiah.. a few verses later, Jesus calls Simon Satan. Your understanding is not correct if you believe Peter was born again before the resurrection. Regardless of how much you gnash your teeth.and project upon me- . Whatever or whoever taught you that being born again does not include the Holy Ghost and receiving it (and I don't limit it to hands having to be laid on your head), is not of God- I'm not saying that because I think you are a bad guy- that belief you hold to just isn't from God. I have nothing against you, but I"m also not backing down from that truth- more for your own good than any pride on my part. And to be clear, just because you have a wrong belief doesn't mean you aren't born again- just that your belief about it is wrong.

And just in case there was some emotional reading into what I said- To be clear I didn't say Peter HAD to deny Jesus to be born again- that is an odd interpretation what what I wrote.. I said He wasn't born again when or at the time of when he denied Jesus. There is a difference. One is not required to deny Jesus to be born again- that is a weird doctrine, but AFTER Peter denied Jesus and AFTER Jesus was resurrected- when thye were in a house, and Jesus told them to receive the Holy Ghost , that moment is when Peter was born again.

Edited: to change weird to strange and the devil to Satan to better reflect the actual quotes.

I don't see any reason to continue this conversation as it isn't getting anywhere. However, I will give you the definition of "born again" so that you can learn a bit deeper.

there are two meanings and it is a process but one with definite steps that can be measured. While to most it is quite general and vague it is in fact very clear in eternal progression.

When Jesus told Nicodemus how to see the kingdom of god he said to be "born again". when Nicodemus didn't understand he simplified the discussion to being born of the spirit. He never did say you didn't need to be truly born again. So, we have two definitions or steps. The first is being born again of the spirit. The second is being born again physically as a celestial child in the celestial kingdom to heavenly parents. The first is working through telestial to terrestrial life to be born again as a celestial offspring.

God's work is two fold, to bring to pass (1) the immortality and (2) the eternal life of man. The immortal part is being born again as celestial offspring the eternal life part is exaltation. You cannot begin exaltation until you are born again in the celestial realm and become an heir of the father, a joint heir with Christ, a member of the church of the Firstborn (Christ), etc.... That is the true meaning of "born again" that Jesus began with Nicodemus.

However, like his parables he simplified the definition and went back to "the gate" that few find. The process is first to repent, be baptized by water, accept Christ "enter the gate" and work to become perfected. The first part of being spiritually born again, then is accepting Christ and becoming new as in beliefs, habits, following commandments, etc.... This leads from telestial order to terrestrial order. Those following Christ and trying to become perfect. Many here and in Christendom in general have had this "born again" experience and have tasted of the benefits of the atonement and accepting Christ.

You become a child of Christ. You're not literally reborn as his offspring, this is a spiritual rebirth or born again. He becomes your father. He then, to these that get here is really both the father and the son as he is the son by atonement and the father by your baptism and loyalty.

After working through the terrestrial state by trying your best to become as Christ would have you, you reach a point where you are justified and sanctified by the blood of Christ (after accepting and working hard to become perfect). You then become a just man made perfect. You become elect, obtain your calling and election and it is made sure. You are given the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. This is a second overcoming of the spirit and what many are looking for as their "born again" experience. It is what Peter was talking about. It is the final phase of living in a terrestrial state.

Then you are literally born again in the celestial kingdom as a literal offspring of the father.

There is much much more that I've been shown, but this answers your question. If you asked honestly then this should suit your query, even if you don't accept it. If you do accept it, I'm happy to provide much more but even this seems a mystery to most, it did to Nicodemus. But not to Joseph or BTW for those detractor, BY for that matter. Not to mention Peter and Paul.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Ok. So you believe being born again is two parts, but you only need one part to be considered born again? But to be fully born again you need to receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost? Do you see receiving the HOly Ghost as different that a baptism of Fire and the Holy Ghost? So if I am understanding you correctly, you don't see the AND as being conjunctive and necessary for the born again? or do you? Trying to understand.

So when you say accept Christ- what does that mean to you - what beliefs does that entail/require?

[TheDuke]

Please tell me how I am wrong. You have yet to tell me what being born again means in your mind. You have called my beliefs strange, you have told me I"m not born again, you have told me I"m fragile, you have thrown out a few other ad-hominems, but nothing relating to what being Born again really is...
Jesus Said to be born again, one must be born of water and the Spirit. I'm not feeling fragile at all. I feel no anger or frustration or negative emotion. Your responses fail to engage with me in telling me what you believe being born again is and appear more emotional than anything- no scripture has been offered by you except "blessed art thou Simon Barjona...." which is God saying "hey Your blessed because God showed you that I am the Messiah.. a few verses later, Jesus calls Simon Satan. Your understanding is not correct if you believe Peter was born again before the resurrection. Regardless of how much you gnash your teeth.and project upon me- . Whatever or whoever taught you that being born again does not include the Holy Ghost and receiving it (and I don't limit it to hands having to be laid on your head), is not of God- I'm not saying that because I think you are a bad guy- that belief you hold to just isn't from God. I have nothing against you, but I"m also not backing down from that truth- more for your own good than any pride on my part. And to be clear, just because you have a wrong belief doesn't mean you aren't born again- just that your belief about it is wrong.

And just in case there was some emotional reading into what I said- To be clear I didn't say Peter HAD to deny Jesus to be born again- that is an odd interpretation what what I wrote.. I said He wasn't born again when or at the time of when he denied Jesus. There is a difference. One is not required to deny Jesus to be born again- that is a weird doctrine, but AFTER Peter denied Jesus and AFTER Jesus was resurrected- when thye were in a house, and Jesus told them to receive the Holy Ghost , that moment is when Peter was born again.

Edited: to change weird to strange and the devil to Satan to better reflect the actual quotes.

I don't see any reason to continue this conversation as it isn't getting anywhere. However, I will give you the definition of "born again" so that you can learn a bit deeper.

there are two meanings and it is a process but one with definite steps that can be measured. While to most it is quite general and vague it is in fact very clear in eternal progression.

When Jesus told Nicodemus how to see the kingdom of god he said to be "born again". when Nicodemus didn't understand he simplified the discussion to being born of the spirit. He never did say you didn't need to be truly born again. So, we have two definitions or steps. The first is being born again of the spirit. The second is being born again physically as a celestial child in the celestial kingdom to heavenly parents. The first is working through telestial to terrestrial life to be born again as a celestial offspring.

God's work is two fold, to bring to pass (1) the immortality and (2) the eternal life of man. The immortal part is being born again as celestial offspring the eternal life part is exaltation. You cannot begin exaltation until you are born again in the celestial realm and become an heir of the father, a joint heir with Christ, a member of the church of the Firstborn (Christ), etc.... That is the true meaning of "born again" that Jesus began with Nicodemus.

However, like his parables he simplified the definition and went back to "the gate" that few find. The process is first to repent, be baptized by water, accept Christ "enter the gate" and work to become perfected. The first part of being spiritually born again, then is accepting Christ and becoming new as in beliefs, habits, following commandments, etc.... This leads from telestial order to terrestrial order. Those following Christ and trying to become perfect. Many here and in Christendom in general have had this "born again" experience and have tasted of the benefits of the atonement and accepting Christ.

You become a child of Christ. You're not literally reborn as his offspring, this is a spiritual rebirth or born again. He becomes your father. He then, to these that get here is really both the father and the son as he is the son by atonement and the father by your baptism and loyalty.

After working through the terrestrial state by trying your best to become as Christ would have you, you reach a point where you are justified and sanctified by the blood of Christ (after accepting and working hard to become perfect). You then become a just man made perfect. You become elect, obtain your calling and election and it is made sure. You are given the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. This is a second overcoming of the spirit and what many are looking for as their "born again" experience. It is what Peter was talking about. It is the final phase of living in a terrestrial state.

Then you are literally born again in the celestial kingdom as a literal offspring of the father.

There is much much more that I've been shown, but this answers your question. If you asked honestly then this should suit your query, even if you don't accept it. If you do accept it, I'm happy to provide much more but even this seems a mystery to most, it did to Nicodemus. But not to Joseph or BTW for those detractor, BY for that matter. Not to mention Peter and Paul.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Ok. So you believe being born again is two parts, but you only need one part to be considered born again? But to be fully born again you need to receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost? Do you see receiving the HOly Ghost as different that a baptism of Fire and the Holy Ghost?

So when you say accept Christ- what does that mean to you - what beliefs does that entail/require?

Sorry but your questions can only be answered with simplified understandings and answers. Truth is that progression is eternal. There are many many steps in eternal progression. We get taught directly only a few steps pertinent to this world and creation and where we fit. If you get to see into eternity, you will see that every living thing, every creature evolves and is born again in different levels.

However, to your specific questions. it depends what level of progression you're working on. Yes you are born again in the first step. Jesus called the very first step, baptism, accepting him and that feeling of renewal is "a born again". The baptism of fire and HG is an event (ordinance). It is what is meant in the "receive the HG" in baptism confirmation. But. you can also receive the spirit or Holy Spirit, or spirit of Christ or light of Christ, or light of Truth along the way. LDS leaders teach this is the HG. It may in fact be a mission of the HG, I suppose if it is the mission of "comforter" or bringing intelligence, these are HG tasks as well as ordinance of BofF. I don't think we can every thing of the spirit is HG however, Usually it is spirit of Christ or god or father, etc...

A far as accepting Christ the outward ordinance is baptism by water. It also includes repenting and really believing in Christ, that he can make you something more and wanting that enough to follow him in the best faith you can. This takes time, perhaps multiple mortalities, perhaps years only, everyone is different.

[John Tavner]

I don't see any reason to continue this conversation as it isn't getting anywhere. However, I will give you the definition of "born again" so that you can learn a bit deeper.

there are two meanings and it is a process but one with definite steps that can be measured. While to most it is quite general and vague it is in fact very clear in eternal progression.

When Jesus told Nicodemus how to see the kingdom of god he said to be "born again". when Nicodemus didn't understand he simplified the discussion to being born of the spirit. He never did say you didn't need to be truly born again. So, we have two definitions or steps. The first is being born again of the spirit. The second is being born again physically as a celestial child in the celestial kingdom to heavenly parents. The first is working through telestial to terrestrial life to be born again as a celestial offspring.

God's work is two fold, to bring to pass (1) the immortality and (2) the eternal life of man. The immortal part is being born again as celestial offspring the eternal life part is exaltation. You cannot begin exaltation until you are born again in the celestial realm and become an heir of the father, a joint heir with Christ, a member of the church of the Firstborn (Christ), etc.... That is the true meaning of "born again" that Jesus began with Nicodemus.

However, like his parables he simplified the definition and went back to "the gate" that few find. The process is first to repent, be baptized by water, accept Christ "enter the gate" and work to become perfected. The first part of being spiritually born again, then is accepting Christ and becoming new as in beliefs, habits, following commandments, etc.... This leads from telestial order to terrestrial order. Those following Christ and trying to become perfect. Many here and in Christendom in general have had this "born again" experience and have tasted of the benefits of the atonement and accepting Christ.

You become a child of Christ. You're not literally reborn as his offspring, this is a spiritual rebirth or born again. He becomes your father. He then, to these that get here is really both the father and the son as he is the son by atonement and the father by your baptism and loyalty.

After working through the terrestrial state by trying your best to become as Christ would have you, you reach a point where you are justified and sanctified by the blood of Christ (after accepting and working hard to become perfect). You then become a just man made perfect. You become elect, obtain your calling and election and it is made sure. You are given the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. This is a second overcoming of the spirit and what many are looking for as their "born again" experience. It is what Peter was talking about. It is the final phase of living in a terrestrial state.

Then you are literally born again in the celestial kingdom as a literal offspring of the father.

There is much much more that I've been shown, but this answers your question. If you asked honestly then this should suit your query, even if you don't accept it. If you do accept it, I'm happy to provide much more but even this seems a mystery to most, it did to Nicodemus. But not to Joseph or BTW for those detractor, BY for that matter. Not to mention Peter and Paul.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Ok. So you believe being born again is two parts, but you only need one part to be considered born again? But to be fully born again you need to receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost? Do you see receiving the HOly Ghost as different that a baptism of Fire and the Holy Ghost?

So when you say accept Christ- what does that mean to you - what beliefs does that entail/require?

Sorry but your questions can only be answered with simplified understandings and answers. Truth is that progression is eternal. There are many many steps in eternal progression. We get taught directly only a few steps pertinent to this world and creation and where we fit. If you get to see into eternity, you will see that every living thing, every creature evolves and is born again in different levels.

However, to your specific questions. it depends what level of progression you're working on. Yes you are born again in the first step. Jesus called the very first step, baptism, accepting him and that feeling of renewal is "a born again". The baptism of fire and HG is an event (ordinance). It is what is meant in the "receive the HG" in baptism confirmation. But. you can also receive the spirit or Holy Spirit, or spirit of Christ or light of Christ, or light of Truth along the way. LDS leaders teach this is the HG. It may in fact be a mission of the HG, I suppose if it is the mission of "comforter" or bringing intelligence, these are HG tasks as well as ordinance of BofF. I don't think we can every thing of the spirit is HG however, Usually it is spirit of Christ or god or father, etc...

A far as accepting Christ the outward ordinance is baptism by water. It also includes repenting and really believing in Christ, that he can make you something more and wanting that enough to follow him in the best faith you can. This takes time, perhaps multiple mortalities, perhaps years only, everyone is different.

So you bleieve receiving hte Holy Ghost and a baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost are the same thing? and one can receive the light of Christ along the way, but that doesn't effect a person whether they are born again or not in what you would call the first part or the second?

[Reluctant Watchman]

I was just thinking... "The reason 'All is not well', is because members don't realize that this is not 'the Lord's house.'"

[TheDuke]

So you bleieve receiving hte Holy Ghost and a baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost are the same thing? and one can receive the light of Christ along the way, but that doesn't effect a person whether they are born again or not in what you would call the first part or the second?

Well "receiving the Holy Ghost" is a phrase, not a thing per-se, at least in LDS vernacular. This is at confirmation the blessing is "receive the Holy Ghost". That command or directive or guidance is a statement telling you what to do. that guidance or command is to accept the HG as baptism of fire. So, what is that one single experience with the HG? It is to have the HG physically present with you. It is really a life changer. It is way, way more powerful experience than anything it is possible to describe. You cannot see him but he is right there, in this world, in your room. It is a single event and lasts a brief period. It is unmistakable. This is what happened when Jesus was born. The HG was there as the scriptures say. Those around Jesus and John felt his presence. And there was something in the form of a "dove" as a witness. but the HG was actually there. Not his spirit.

Now I know it says Holy "GHOST" and he is a personage of spirit. I don't wish to confuse his "personage" vs. just his influence. The HG is a person. He does what persons do, that is exist in one place, etc... Like Jesus. He also has a broad range of spiritual power. That is his role. Besides performing the ordinance of BofF, he is also a "comforter" and "brings intelligence" to our minds/spirits. He does not have to physically be present to do the latter.

So, you can receive the spiritual influence of the HG when he chooses to communicate with you. I mean he can only be in one place at a time. (I'm sure he has an entire support team to help out. I mean the Father created this earth but Jesus did the work, and Jesus assigned the great and nobles ones. So, what the god does vs. assigns is layered). So, you can receive the HG along the way. In fact, one incongruity with LDS teachings is that you need to be baptized to receive the HG but before baptism you repent and to repent you need the HG! This is mixing up the terms as I described above, so in a way both meanings have been mingled in canon and in lore to become one. I don't see any reason to dissect it further as it would only hurt someone's testimony to do so.

I can say I have had both experiences in my life and they are different. The literal born again ordinance is unmistakable and you'll be elect, and there will be no question, you will know the day and time and duration (not that you'll be smart enough to write the specifics down or anything or even have pen and paper, my point is you really know). But, to be born again in your heart, can happy any time, and many times. I'm not sure you can pin that down. But it is no less important. As I stated before the "process" of becoming "a just man made perfect" through Christ is not a single event and takes, I hate to say it, enduring to the end.

As far as the light of Christ. I bring it up because like the influence of the HG, it communicates with our spirit and our spirit passes it to our body via our mind. It can be felt as knowledge or instructions or "intelligence flowing" or tingling or euphoria or joy or light or I suppose other ways. How can one tell the difference between the spiritual source? I don't feel you can tell what comes from the father or the son or the HG to your spirit. Well, not unless the source tells you. I have had that happen occasionally, where the spirit clearly says who's speaking. Usually in that case it is "my father", otherwise I always assume Christ. I never pray to the HG.

So, Joseph teaches that in the spirit realm, spirits communicate by "spiritual light". (You may not like it but read John Pratt's essay on this topic as it provides many logic sources and links that can help lead the spirit to clarify the details.) Spiritual light is between any spirit beings. So, that includes good and evil, gods and demons, etc.... To separate spiritual light from "god" from the rest, Joseph tells us it is called the Light of Truth. So, we seek the LoT in our communications. The LoT is moderated, that is given to us or kept on the other side of the veil by Christ. So in this world we obtain the LoT as the Light of Christ. This is communication from "god" to our spirit. By "god" here it could be the father, the son, the HG, heavenly mother, an angel, a spiritual servant, a resurrected prophet, an unembodied prophet, etc....

lastly, IMO we only obtain knowledge in this life we are prepared for. We prepared in the pre-mortal realm to learn here. so when we obtain the LoC it may very well be that Christ is simply letting us know or comprehend that which we already knew was true, at least in spirit or on paper, now we really comprehend it. This is also called LoC and many say conscience, epiphanies, deja-vu, etc... So, we see that the LoC has broad meanings. In the end it appears that a "trusted" spirit being representing god brings knowledge to our spirit and then our spirit communicates it to our bodies. In that process and our weakness we often (I know I do) jumble the source, and even jumble the words, knowledge, feelings. Hence many (like Joseph and Sidney) seeing the same vision or receiving the same spiritual guidance, sees and feels and learns slightly different things.

Hope this clarifies what I've been told by "the spirit" and what I learned in the presences of the HG.

[John Tavner]

I was just thinking... "The reason 'All is not well', is because members don't realize that this is not 'the Lord's house.'"

I agree, until we realize we are to be the Lord's house, we will live below what Jesus paid for.

[John Tavner]

So you bleieve receiving hte Holy Ghost and a baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost are the same thing? and one can receive the light of Christ along the way, but that doesn't effect a person whether they are born again or not in what you would call the first part or the second?

Well "receiving the Holy Ghost" is a phrase, not a thing per-se, at least in LDS vernacular. This is at confirmation the blessing is "receive the Holy Ghost". That command or directive or guidance is a statement telling you what to do. that guidance or command is to accept the HG as baptism of fire. So, what is that one single experience with the HG? It is to have the HG physically present with you. It is really a life changer. It is way, way more powerful experience than anything it is possible to describe. You cannot see him but he is right there, in this world, in your room. It is a single event and lasts a brief period. It is unmistakable. This is what happened when Jesus was born. The HG was there as the scriptures say. Those around Jesus and John felt his presence. And there was something in the form of a "dove" as a witness. but the HG was actually there. Not his spirit.

Now I know it says Holy "GHOST" and he is a personage of spirit. I don't wish to confuse his "personage" vs. just his influence. The HG is a person. He does what persons do, that is exist in one place, etc... Like Jesus. He also has a broad range of spiritual power. That is his role. Besides performing the ordinance of BofF, he is also a "comforter" and "brings intelligence" to our minds/spirits. He does not have to physically be present to do the latter.

So, you can receive the spiritual influence of the HG when he chooses to communicate with you. I mean he can only be in one place at a time. (I'm sure he has an entire support team to help out. I mean the Father created this earth but Jesus did the work, and Jesus assigned the great and nobles ones. So, what the god does vs. assigns is layered). So, you can receive the HG along the way. In fact, one incongruity with LDS teachings is that you need to be baptized to receive the HG but before baptism you repent and to repent you need the HG! This is mixing up the terms as I described above, so in a way both meanings have been mingled in canon and in lore to become one. I don't see any reason to dissect it further as it would only hurt someone's testimony to do so.

I can say I have had both experiences in my life and they are different. The literal born again ordinance is unmistakable and you'll be elect, and there will be no question, you will know the day and time and duration (not that you'll be smart enough to write the specifics down or anything or even have pen and paper, my point is you really know). But, to be born again in your heart, can happy any time, and many times. I'm not sure you can pin that down. But it is no less important. As I stated before the "process" of becoming "a just man made perfect" through Christ is not a single event and takes, I hate to say it, enduring to the end.

As far as the light of Christ. I bring it up because like the influence of the HG, it communicates with our spirit and our spirit passes it to our body via our mind. It can be felt as knowledge or instructions or "intelligence flowing" or tingling or euphoria or joy or light or I suppose other ways. How can one tell the difference between the spiritual source? I don't feel you can tell what comes from the father or the son or the HG to your spirit. Well, not unless the source tells you. I have had that happen occasionally, where the spirit clearly says who's speaking. Usually in that case it is "my father", otherwise I always assume Christ. I never pray to the HG.

So, Joseph teaches that in the spirit realm, spirits communicate by "spiritual light". (You may not like it but read John Pratt's essay on this topic as it provides many logic sources and links that can help lead the spirit to clarify the details.) Spiritual light is between any spirit beings. So, that includes good and evil, gods and demons, etc.... To separate spiritual light from "god" from the rest, Joseph tells us it is called the Light of Truth. So, we seek the LoT in our communications. The LoT is moderated, that is given to us or kept on the other side of the veil by Christ. So in this world we obtain the LoT as the Light of Christ. This is communication from "god" to our spirit. By "god" here it could be the father, the son, the HG, heavenly mother, an angel, a spiritual servant, a resurrected prophet, an unembodied prophet, etc....

lastly, IMO we only obtain knowledge in this life we are prepared for. We prepared in the pre-mortal realm to learn here. so when we obtain the LoC it may very well be that Christ is simply letting us know or comprehend that which we already knew was true, at least in spirit or on paper, now we really comprehend it. This is also called LoC and many say conscience, epiphanies, deja-vu, etc... So, we see that the LoC has broad meanings. In the end it appears that a "trusted" spirit being representing god brings knowledge to our spirit and then our spirit communicates it to our bodies. In that process and our weakness we often (I know I do) jumble the source, and even jumble the words, knowledge, feelings. Hence many (like Joseph and Sidney) seeing the same vision or receiving the same spiritual guidance, sees and feels and learns slightly different things.

Hope this clarifies what I've been told by "the spirit" and what I learned in the presences of the HG.

I don't agree with everything you've written. Much of it I do agree with at least from a birds eye perspective. The main thing I disagree with is that one is born again before they receive the Holy Ghost (and I"m not using church vernacular when I say "receive the Holy Ghost.." I see that as conjunctive the and is important. Jesus came to give new life and unless we die to our old one, we can't obtain a new one (can't put new wine into old skins). Receiving the Holy Ghost is a part of that new life- baptism is to help us have a clean conscience and the holy ghost is God giving us the earnest of His inheritance- as you said it is what makes us Sons or Daughters because we obtain the same Spirit that was in Jesus - who was the first born among many Sons. It is beautiful because As Paul said that the mystery held back until the latter days was "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" or in other words the annointing one in you the joyful expectation of manifesting hte presence of God to the world- just as Jesus did- and I don't mean doing ministry for 3 years, I mean living a life by which God is manifested to those around us. That said it doesn't appear our beliefs are too far off, just we disagree that there are two born again experiences. If I were to separate experiences I would say receiving the Holy Ghost is a different experience than being baptized with fire and the HOly Ghost. My understanding is being baptized with fire and the HOly Ghost is for proclaiming hte gospel.

[Jamescm]

Hopefully we all have lines that if crossed, we won’t stay. I know I do.

What makes the whole concept difficult to settle on, at an individual level, is that it isn't a clear-cut as "staying in" or "leaving" the Church.

Hogmeister's opening post very well describes where I'm currently at, or close to it. In formulating a "line" to cross, I could say something to the effect that I wouldn't stay in the Church if it began practicing individual-focused Priesthood/women with the Priesthood rather than family/male/head-of-household-focused Priesthood, or if it began sealing any two people with no regard to sex... But I would still hold the following true:
- Joseph Smith was a prophet.
- The Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God, and is the most "correct" book on all the earth.
- The Church of Jesus Christ established certain ordinances for the purpose of endowing its members with power and protection, as well as expanding wisdom and insight.
- here two or more are gathered in His name, He is among them. We are commanded to meet together oft to fast, to pray, and to partake of the sacrament. Additionally, where two or more are gathered in His name, He is among them.

So what exactly would I then "not stay" in? If I reached a point where I completely and opening denounced the mortal leadership of the Church wholesale, I still hold to everything else. The fact that I do so would be the reason I'd denounce said leadership, marking out how and where they diverge from the scriptures and from past prophets.

What of the temple? If those running it had become entirely corrupt, at what point do I recognize or react to that? How do I react to that? Do I resolve not to attend anymore? I covenanted to wear the garment, in good faith and under circumstances in which I believe the temple ordinances were still good. Do I continue wearing it? What if leadership became ax-crazy with any and all dissent and I were excommunicated; do I stop wearing it because that's what one is "supposed" to do? Or do I continue wearing it because I made a good covenant and believe that I am still the one on the right side of God?

Do I encourage my children to receive their ordinances, because there may still be some level of good or valid authority? Do I discourage it, because vitamins mixed with poison are still poison? Or do I take the spiritually lazy way out and just make them figure it out for themselves?

Back when Israel switched from having elected judges to having a king, the Lord and His prophet both warned people that that was a stupid idea, and they still went with it. Since the Church in that day began anointing the kings, what of those who still held to the true principle that a mortal king is a bad idea and that they should be free? Were they said to be dissenting from the Church because the Church began anointing kings? Or were they faithful for seeking and reaching out to greater light instead of settling for less, even when "less" is what became the Church's position?

[Wolfwoman]

Hopefully we all have lines that if crossed, we won’t stay. I know I do.

What makes the whole concept difficult to settle on, at an individual level, is that it isn't a clear-cut as "staying in" or "leaving" the Church.

Hogmeister's opening post very well describes where I'm currently at, or close to it. In formulating a "line" to cross, I could say something to the effect that I wouldn't stay in the Church if it began practicing individual-focused Priesthood/women with the Priesthood rather than family/male/head-of-household-focused Priesthood, or if it began sealing any two people with no regard to sex... But I would still hold the following true:
- Joseph Smith was a prophet.
- The Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God, and is the most "correct" book on all the earth.
- The Church of Jesus Christ established certain ordinances for the purpose of endowing its members with power and protection, as well as expanding wisdom and insight.
- here two or more are gathered in His name, He is among them. We are commanded to meet together oft to fast, to pray, and to partake of the sacrament. Additionally, where two or more are gathered in His name, He is among them.

So what exactly would I then "not stay" in? If I reached a point where I completely and opening denounced the mortal leadership of the Church wholesale, I still hold to everything else. The fact that I do so would be the reason I'd denounce said leadership, marking out how and where they diverge from the scriptures and from past prophets.

What of the temple? If those running it had become entirely corrupt, at what point do I recognize or react to that? How do I react to that? Do I resolve not to attend anymore? I covenanted to wear the garment, in good faith and under circumstances in which I believe the temple ordinances were still good. Do I continue wearing it? What if leadership became ax-crazy with any and all dissent and I were excommunicated; do I stop wearing it because that's what one is "supposed" to do? Or do I continue wearing it because I made a good covenant and believe that I am still the one on the right side of God?

Do I encourage my children to receive their ordinances, because there may still be some level of good or valid authority? Do I discourage it, because vitamins mixed with poison are still poison? Or do I take the spiritually lazy way out and just make them figure it out for themselves?

Back when Israel switched from having elected judges to having a king, the Lord and His prophet both warned people that that was a stupid idea, and they still went with it. Since the Church in that day began anointing the kings, what of those who still held to the true principle that a mortal king is a bad idea and that they should be free? Were they said to be dissenting from the Church because the Church began anointing kings? Or were they faithful for seeking and reaching out to greater light instead of settling for less, even when "less" is what became the Church's position?

That’s a lot of questions that I don’t think I can answer for you. We have to figure things out on our own (or from God) just like the people you read about in the scriptures.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Here’s a verse from the BoM that I think all of us should take a hard long look at. The church Believers lay church validity on “keys and authority”, but Christ never taught this. If the church teaches false doctrine, it is no longer His church:

And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel. (3 Nephi 27:8)

[Fight for the right]

I was just thinking... "The reason 'All is not well', is because members don't realize that this is not 'the Lord's house.'"

It's Christ's house alright watchman..All is not well I know that. Watchman we can kick this around forever and your very good at it as you've had lots of practice. I say this. I've had a very strong manifestation of the Holy Spirit that it is still Christ's Church. End of my remarks.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I was just thinking... "The reason 'All is not well', is because members don't realize that this is not 'the Lord's house.'"

It's Christ's house alright watchman..All is not well I know that. Watchman we can kick this around forever and your very good at it as you've had lots of practice. I say this. I've had a very strong manifestation of the Holy Spirit that it is still Christ's Church. End of my remarks.

Yo!!! FFTR, where have you been my friend?? Keep reading through the thread. Jesus himself said that it is only His church when they teach his gospel. Take the emotion out of it. Are there false doctrines in the church? Heck yeah!! In fact, there are anti-Christian doctrines passed off as the gospel in the LDS org. And the church knows it.

Good to hear from you.

[Mamabear]

How does Christ’s church contain false prophets who cannot prophesy? When did He make it known that listening to them, is an acceptable way to follow Him?

[Severus]

Joseph didn’t stay with a burning ship, nor claim a dilapidated barn…
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/josephs-last-dreams

IMO, simply stating that it is upon His house that it begins, doesn’t mean He lays any claim to it once it has become corrupt. The Lord also taught that He’d remove the fulness of the gospel from those who are wicked and change His doctrine.

Also, please consider this, if and when the church decides to stop doing so many awful things, what is to prevent you from joining again with them? Heck, there are some very basic principles that the church could teach that would have me back in the pews this Sunday.

I think the ONLY reason to stay or leave is if the promptings came from the Lord.

Was this dream first hand or second hand or third hand.
I believe things are allowed to transpire as they are to weed out the tares, from the leaders to the lowly layman. All things I have read in prophecy and predictions are that His "church" "House" etc, is in very bad shape, lead to the brinks of hell, imposters for leaders, many tares among the sheep, gospel net gathers all kinds of good and bad, probably much more bad, rampant apostasy, in the church, leaders removed and replaced, etc.
The drama lies with the church, I do not care how evil and corrupt things get inside, it is JC's church and He will set it back in order in His own due time and way. No one has to partake of the wickedness.
"Be still and know that I am God".
Some like to say/think that the church is not important and that it does not matter whether you are a member or not, if that is true then why did Joseph start it through revelation from God, and God recognized and claimed it.

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with brighteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

"mother of harlots" all of the breakoffs of the great whore.

Some believe that the LDS church is the "Great whore" but I do not, as to me, Nephi's description fits perfectly with existing conditions today. Although he saw a panoramic extended vision of not just a moment in time but of a series of rolling events. But it seems to very clearly point out a perfect description of the two churches. At this point and time, no power has descended upon the saints. But, just wait and see what happens after this OMAS comes and cleanses the church, removes the "false shepards" and makes it shine like the sun.
At the moment we have just what we deserve and want, (as a whole) we "love to have it so", but the fake promises of today will all fade away when "The great and Marvelous" work begins.
But let me emphasize again, God will save and "redeem" and set back in order, His church.

Well said and great conviction.
Wish I was this good of a poster.

[Being There]

I was just thinking... "The reason 'All is not well', is because members don't realize that this is not 'the Lord's house.'"

It's Christ's house alright watchman..All is not well I know that. Watchman we can kick this around forever and your very good at it as you've had lots of practice. I say this. I've had a very strong manifestation of the Holy Spirit that it is still Christ's Church. End of my remarks.

All I can say is - is that you're very wrong -
and these "very strong manifestations" that so many like you say they have -
thinking it's the Holy Ghost - is really nothing more than their strong feelings
and desire to confirm that which they want to believe and love or care for.

(most aren't really looking for the truth - but want the truth to be what they want it to be)

“People say they love truth, but in reality they want to believe that which they love is true.”


"Fight for the right" - unlike the church - start Fighting for the Right ! -

It's always the time to take a stand and stand up for what is true - and right -
but you won't see the church do it, because they're a big part of Babylon
and follow and serve not Christ - but the leaders of this World that serve satan.

"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.
He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

the church is a perfect example of this - they follow it to a tee.

[Fight for the right]

We'll all see shortly won't we.