All is not well but I will stay anyway.

[Hogmeister]

I have seen a few that have left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints due to their belief that all is not well in Zion or the church. I share that belief but I do not want to leave the church. Some have pointed to the prophecy found in D&C 112 and that it is prophesying about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in a very detrimental and negative way and is part of the reason they have left.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; 26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I am delighted that this prophesy is in D&C 112. It gives me hope for the future of the church and recognises that it is still the Lords house even if all is not well and some watchmen is not on the Lords errand. Would I want to be removed from the Lords house when things are bad? No. If it is bad in the Lord's house I would imagine it will be even worse outside.

For me the best and most preferrable option is to recognise that all is not well but still belong to the Lord's house. I may sometimes be critizised and ridiculed and avoided if I am too vocal and transparent but that is a price I am willing to pay to stay on the inside even when all is not well and our leaders are in the process of joining with Babylon. I have hope. Christ will expose the devil's cunning and I will have front row seat.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Joseph didn’t stay with a burning ship, nor claim a dilapidated barn…
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/josephs-last-dreams

IMO, simply stating that it is upon His house that it begins, doesn’t mean He lays any claim to it once it has become corrupt. The Lord also taught that He’d remove the fulness of the gospel from those who are wicked and change His doctrine.

Also, please consider this, if and when the church decides to stop doing so many awful things, what is to prevent you from joining again with them? Heck, there are some very basic principles that the church could teach that would have me back in the pews this Sunday.

I think the ONLY reason to stay or leave is if the promptings came from the Lord.

[Juliet]

I had a dream during covid that I was on a ship. I felt like the ship represented the church. I was like a young woman swimming outside in the water but then the water was getting dangerous so we all had to get into the ship. On the ship's second floor down, people were dancing around, and making merry. I saw a man on top of a table dancing with one of the young women leaders. Under his nice suit, I could see he had red skin. In other words, he was the devil. (He also had horns like the devil.... but for some reason that didn't give him away). I realized that the ship, representing the church, was dancing with the devil on their own ship, and maybe even had made a deal with the devil.

Then I got on the top level of the ship, which suprisingly, no one was at, or very few people such that it felt like I was alone. I looked up at the sky, and then I saw some dials. I started turning the dials. The dials had simple symbols on them representing the sky. The reason why I was turning the dials was to symbolize helping to navigate the understanding of what was happening so others could get a sense of what was going on during this time.

As I was on the ship, I looked to where the ship was headed. All of the sudden, the scenescape became a very cinematic version of hell. The water we were on, which used to be large, had turned into a river, like the river of styx. The river then changed into a river of lava, and I realized we were at the entrance to hell. black smoke lifted from the lava and I specifically saw the smoke take form of people kissing each other, and I realized these were demons of lust at the entrance to hell. It was very hot lava and there was no way out. The ship was going to go through hell. It was too late to get off the ship as lava started coming all around everywhere. The only thing left to do, would be to look up at the sky so as to safely navigate through the hell realms and safely make it to the other side.


Wow 48:11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHbbKWsNwl4

Troy Black published this today

"There are ships that I've asked you to stay on a little bit longer, but you've got to hold onto the promise that I've given you. I'm going to protect the things in your life that really matter, even if the ship has to go down. I've given you a word that's going to sustain you."

"So hold on, the dawn is coming. The Light is here and it's ready to wrap around you and enlighten every dark space. To brighten up even the darkest of shadows. To illuminate the past and make life new again."

[mudflap]

I have seen a few that have left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints due to their belief that all is not well in Zion or the church. I share in that belief but I do not want to leave the church. Some have pointed to the prophecy found in D&C 112 and that it is prophesying about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in a very detrimental and negative way and is part of the reason they have left.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; 26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I am delighted that this prophesy is in D&C 112. It gives me hope for the future of the church and recognises that it is still the Lords house even if all is not well and some watchmen is not on the Lords errand. Would I want to be removed from the Lords house when things are bad? No. If it is bad in the Lord's house I would imagine it will be even worse outside.

For me the best and most preferrable option is to recognise that all is not well but still belong to the Lord's house. I may sometimes be critizised and ridiculed and avoided if I am to vocal and transparent but that is a price I am willing to pay to stay on the inside even when all is not well and our leaders are in the process of joining with Babylon. I have hope. Christ will expose the devil's cunning and I will have front row seat.

It's a tough decision for sure - and I think a very personal one - made with a humble heart and doing your best to follow God's will for yourself.

[simpleton]

Joseph didn’t stay with a burning ship, nor claim a dilapidated barn…
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/josephs-last-dreams

IMO, simply stating that it is upon His house that it begins, doesn’t mean He lays any claim to it once it has become corrupt. The Lord also taught that He’d remove the fulness of the gospel from those who are wicked and change His doctrine.

Also, please consider this, if and when the church decides to stop doing so many awful things, what is to prevent you from joining again with them? Heck, there are some very basic principles that the church could teach that would have me back in the pews this Sunday.

I think the ONLY reason to stay or leave is if the promptings came from the Lord.

Was this dream first hand or second hand or third hand.
I believe things are allowed to transpire as they are to weed out the tares, from the leaders to the lowly layman. All things I have read in prophecy and predictions are that His "church" "House" etc, is in very bad shape, lead to the brinks of hell, imposters for leaders, many tares among the sheep, gospel net gathers all kinds of good and bad, probably much more bad, rampant apostasy, in the church, leaders removed and replaced, etc.
The drama lies with the church, I do not care how evil and corrupt things get inside, it is JC's church and He will set it back in order in His own due time and way. No one has to partake of the wickedness.
"Be still and know that I am God".
Some like to say/think that the church is not important and that it does not matter whether you are a member or not, if that is true then why did Joseph start it through revelation from God, and God recognized and claimed it.

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with brighteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

"mother of harlots" all of the breakoffs of the great whore.

Some believe that the LDS church is the "Great whore" but I do not, as to me, Nephi's description fits perfectly with existing conditions today. Although he saw a panoramic extended vision of not just a moment in time but of a series of rolling events. But it seems to very clearly point out a perfect description of the two churches. At this point and time, no power has descended upon the saints. But, just wait and see what happens after this OMAS comes and cleanses the church, removes the "false shepards" and makes it shine like the sun.
At the moment we have just what we deserve and want, (as a whole) we "love to have it so", but the fake promises of today will all fade away when "The great and Marvelous" work begins.
But let me emphasize again, God will save and "redeem" and set back in order, His church.

[John Tavner]

Just so we are clear. The judgment begins on the family/house of God.... not "just" the LDS Church. 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[cab]

Just so we are clear. The judgment begins on the family/house of God.... not "just" the LDS Church. 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Thank you. I am tired of the Mormon narcissism view of prophecy. We are just one of the many struggling religions out there.

[simpleton]

I had a dream during covid that I was on a ship. I felt like the ship represented the church. I was like a young woman swimming outside in the water but then the water was getting dangerous so we all had to get into the ship. On the ship's second floor down, people were dancing around, and making merry. I saw a man on top of a table dancing with one of the young women leaders. Under his nice suit, I could see he had red skin. In other words, he was the devil. (He also had horns like the devil.... but for some reason that didn't give him away). I realized that the ship, representing the church, was dancing with the devil on their own ship, and maybe even had made a deal with the devil.

Then I got on the top level of the ship, which suprisingly, no one was at, or very few people such that it felt like I was alone. I looked up at the sky, and then I saw some dials. I started turning the dials. The dials had simple symbols on them representing the sky. The reason why I was turning the dials was to symbolize helping to navigate the understanding of what was happening so others could get a sense of what was going on during this time.

As I was on the ship, I looked to where the ship was headed. All of the sudden, the scenescape became a very cinematic version of hell. The water we were on, which used to be large, had turned into a river, like the river of styx. The river then changed into a river of lava, and I realized we were at the entrance to hell. black smoke lifted from the lava and I specifically saw the smoke take form of people kissing each other, and I realized these were demons of lust at the entrance to hell. It was very hot lava and there was no way out. The ship was going to go through hell. It was too late to get off the ship as lava started coming all around everywhere. The only thing left to do, would be to look up at the sky so as to safely navigate through the hell realms and safely make it to the other side.

The "going through hell" is exactly what is needed to burn out the dross. But many will be shocked and surprised at what/who exactly the dross is.

[simpleton]

Just so we are clear. The judgment begins on the family/house of God.... not "just" the LDS Church. 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Thank you. I am tired of the Mormon narcissism view of prophecy. We are just one of the many struggling religions out there.

Get tired all you want, it comes from the BofM "save two churches only" and "whomsover does not belong to the church of the Lamb, belongs to the great whore" . But I guess if you reject mormonism all together....

[Reluctant Watchman]

Joseph didn’t stay with a burning ship, nor claim a dilapidated barn…
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/josephs-last-dreams

IMO, simply stating that it is upon His house that it begins, doesn’t mean He lays any claim to it once it has become corrupt. The Lord also taught that He’d remove the fulness of the gospel from those who are wicked and change His doctrine.

Also, please consider this, if and when the church decides to stop doing so many awful things, what is to prevent you from joining again with them? Heck, there are some very basic principles that the church could teach that would have me back in the pews this Sunday.

I think the ONLY reason to stay or leave is if the promptings came from the Lord.

Was this dream first hand or second hand or third hand.
I believe things are allowed to transpire as they are to weed out the tares, from the leaders to the lowly layman. All things I have read in prophecy and predictions are that His "church" "House" etc, is in very bad shape, lead to the brinks of hell, imposters for leaders, many tares among the sheep, gospel net gathers all kinds of good and bad, probably much more bad, rampant apostasy, in the church, leaders removed and replaced, etc.
The drama lies with the church, I do not care how evil and corrupt things get inside, it is JC's church and He will set it back in order in His own due time and way. No one has to partake of the wickedness.
"Be still and know that I am God".
Some like to say/think that the church is not important and that it does not matter whether you are a member or not, if that is true then why did Joseph start it through revelation from God, and God recognized and claimed it.

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with brighteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

"mother of harlots" all of the breakoffs of the great whore.

Some believe that the LDS church is the "Great whore" but I do not, as to me, Nephi's description fits perfectly with existing conditions today. Although he saw a panoramic extended vision of not just a moment in time but of a series of rolling events. But it seems to very clearly point out a perfect description of the two churches. At this point and time, no power has descended upon the saints. But, just wait and see what happens after this OMAS comes and cleanses the church, removes the "false shepards" and makes it shine like the sun.
At the moment we have just what we deserve and want, (as a whole) we "love to have it so", but the fake promises of today will all fade away when "The great and Marvelous" work begins.
But let me emphasize again, God will save and "redeem" and set back in order, His church.

Oh, it was on record, in public, while he was alive…

As I note in my essay, it’s much more difficult to change the meaning of a dream as it is interpretive. I also stated that anything written can be altered. But, what is most intriguing, is that this most likely wouldn’t have been published if the early church leaders thought that Joseph was talking about them. Why put out a dream that could cast doubt on your supposed line of authority?

IMO, all churches are imperfect. The more they change doctrine, the more imperfect they become.

Also, if the church is not the great whore, they are sleeping with the whore.

[jdt]

Be careful how you interpret prophecy. In the Lord's dispensation, I would say that it also started with the Lord's house, and it went forth from there.
What did that that look like? Well you had John the Baptist out performing ordinances outside the existing hierarchy, as well as Jesus directly confronting the Sanhedrin. The leading councils were not cleansed or improved (in fact they dug their heels in against every bit of restoration), but rather the keys were wrested from them. After the Lord's death, the gospel focus then shifted from the Jews to the Gentiles.
Is it possible that the keys have already been wrested and the gospel focus has already been shifted from the LDS to others? What would that even look like?

[Hogmeister]

Just so we are clear. The judgment begins on the family/house of God.... not "just" the LDS Church. 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Thank you. I am tired of the Mormon narcissism view of prophecy. We are just one of the many struggling religions out there.

Get tired all you want, it comes from the BofM "save two churches only" and "whomsover does not belong to the church of the Lamb, belongs to the great whore" . But I guess if you reject mormonism all together....

These 2 spoken of by Nephi are not formal existing church organisations imo, neither the church of the devil nor the lamb. Though I believe the LDS church has a considerable overlap with the church of the lamb I do not believe the LDS church is the same idea written about by Nephi. I believe there are people in the LDS church that belong to the church of the devil and there are people outside the LDS church that belong to the church of the lamb. It is where your heart is that determines this. Clearly Nephi is not prophesying about current existing church organisations including the LDS church - there are thousands and thousands different churches, boy did he get that wrong in that case. Nephi is not prophesying how to classify all our existing churches either. Instead he is on the individual level. Which of the two churches the individual actually belong to. And that can be by degrees I believe.

2 Ne 28:14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

Who are the humble followers of Christ that are taught by the precepts of men in that verse? Which ”church” do they ”belong” to? Is there a difference between where the heart belongs and where the member records are registered? Is Nephi’s description of ”churches” on a different ”level” or of a different definition than what you are thinking of? Is Nephi referring to the location of membership records or where the heart is?

I can tell you that I firmly believe that the ”church” of the devil in its most concentrated and organised form (its core) that Nephi refers to is not an ordinary church (many Mormons in their ignorance have tried to fit the Catholic church as the church of the devil - oh how wrong they are - Catholics have lots of light relatively speaking), it is what John the revelator describes as the harlot queen in scarlet which is Secret/Mystery Babylon, the Mother of all abominations, that reigns over the kings of the earth. And this is the secret combination that has infiltrated and or exercise power and dominion over every government and organisation on earth today. Those that belong to this secret core are very few compared to those that worship, by degrees, the abominations they produce for the world to subscribe to. I believe Nephi has in mind all those that believe in what the secret combination is doing (drinking its wine rather then eating the fruit of the tree of life). Thus I say we belong BY DEGREES to either the one or the other.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Agreed, where is your heart.

[Bronco73idi]

His house is the house of Israel!

Ezekiel 36
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

[Hogmeister]

His house is the house of Israel!

Ezekiel 36
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

Also true. But anyone who do not believe in Christ will be cut off at some point.

And the rebellious shall be plucked out of Ephraim.

[Wolfwoman]

Hopefully we all have lines that if crossed, we won’t stay. I know I do.

[IsaiahVision]

Joseph didn’t stay with a burning ship, nor claim a dilapidated barn…
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/josephs-last-dreams

IMO, simply stating that it is upon His house that it begins, doesn’t mean He lays any claim to it once it has become corrupt. The Lord also taught that He’d remove the fulness of the gospel from those who are wicked and change His doctrine.

Also, please consider this, if and when the church decides to stop doing so many awful things, what is to prevent you from joining again with them? Heck, there are some very basic principles that the church could teach that would have me back in the pews this Sunday.

I think the ONLY reason to stay or leave is if the promptings came from the Lord.

Was this dream first hand or second hand or third hand.
I believe things are allowed to transpire as they are to weed out the tares, from the leaders to the lowly layman. All things I have read in prophecy and predictions are that His "church" "House" etc, is in very bad shape, lead to the brinks of hell, imposters for leaders, many tares among the sheep, gospel net gathers all kinds of good and bad, probably much more bad, rampant apostasy, in the church, leaders removed and replaced, etc.
The drama lies with the church, I do not care how evil and corrupt things get inside, it is JC's church and He will set it back in order in His own due time and way. No one has to partake of the wickedness.
"Be still and know that I am God".
Some like to say/think that the church is not important and that it does not matter whether you are a member or not, if that is true then why did Joseph start it through revelation from God, and God recognized and claimed it.

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with brighteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

"mother of harlots" all of the breakoffs of the great whore.

Some believe that the LDS church is the "Great whore" but I do not, as to me, Nephi's description fits perfectly with existing conditions today. Although he saw a panoramic extended vision of not just a moment in time but of a series of rolling events. But it seems to very clearly point out a perfect description of the two churches. At this point and time, no power has descended upon the saints. But, just wait and see what happens after this OMAS comes and cleanses the church, removes the "false shepards" and makes it shine like the sun.
At the moment we have just what we deserve and want, (as a whole) we "love to have it so", but the fake promises of today will all fade away when "The great and Marvelous" work begins.
But let me emphasize again, God will save and "redeem" and set back in order, His church.

Also, if the church is not the great whore, they are sleeping with the whore.

I have used the analogy 'the Daughter of Zion is fornicating with the whore of Babylon.'

Ezekiel 23 'uses the metaphor of a harlot to describe the wayward behavior of the House of Israel and Ephraim (part of the northern kingdom of Israel) due to their idolatry and disobedience to God's commandments.'


Isaiah 1:8: "And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city."

Isaiah 3:16: "Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet."

Isaiah 62:11: "Behold, the Lord hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him."

[John Tavner]

Honestly I don't know why we make it so complicated. I feel like the scriptures are pretty plain: 1 John 3: 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The house isn't a physical group. Jesus Himself said there will be many from the east and west eating with Abraham, but there will be many who claim to be children of Abraham/Israel who will not be there and there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 3: 9And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

We make this so much more complicated because we think it is about our ancestry... but we must all be BORN AGAIN- or we are not His children- we must turn our hearts to the Fathers i.e. have the same heart by turning to Faith for salvation... Faith leads us to live a life unto God it isn't circumcision, it isn't who your daddy is, but who our Father is.

[TheDuke]

Is it possible that the keys have already been wrested and the gospel focus has already been shifted from the LDS to others? What would that even look like?

Nope.

Just saying. Get some revelation vs. extrapolating scriptures. Some feel good about the church some feel bad. Just feelings. I for one, have had the Lord say in his own voice to attend to my spiritual needs, repent, get back to the temple and take an eternal partner. His words, no questions, no equivocation, no explanation, just do it. BTW he had to say it 3 times to turn me around. Had to tell me to tithe. Had to tell me to ignore Oaks. Had to tell me to accept BY. Was a real pill for me at the time. but, it shows the gospel is in LDS as is acceptable ordinances. If you think you can get celestial life like god in another religion at this time. You're wrong. Not exaltation, oh maybe salvation, even terrestrial if it is a church of Christ. Telestial religions, SURE they are everywhere. and they do good and make people happy. but like in D&C 76:98 et al, you get only telestial. But that is success for most everyone on this earth. I'm not putting down anyone that obtains a glory of god and is happy with it. But don't point fingers at those that want more.

[TheDuke]

Honestly I don't know why we make it so complicated. I feel like the scriptures are pretty plain: 1 John 3: 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John, this is a perfect example of oversimplification, pure and simple. It is utterly BS as interpreted. It says if you're born again (like you feel you are) then you cannot sin. No one is perfect but Jesus, so if you're saying no one ever is born again ok. Peter was born again, confessed Jesus then denied him 3 times! He SINNED! He repented and was forgiven. but that is not what you're saying here.

Some mumbo about being born again but living in the telestial world and nothing you do again is ever a sin!

Poppycock. Sorry. the scripture is true but it means you can overcome sin and in the next life you will be perfect. There is no one perfect (sinless) in this life except Jesus and there are many (well lots but few according to Jesus, relatively) that have been born again, yet they sin.... Read Peter about C&E, even then even the elect can sin, but will need to pay the price to be perfect, but they will become such.

It is complex. If you think you can make it that simple, then it isn't others that are deceived IMO. Happy you're born again BTW, happy for you. but if you're claiming to be sinless as in not committing sin since being reborn, vs. being sinless for "repenting to damned fast" per Golden Kimball. Then you are deceived.

[John Tavner]

Honestly I don't know why we make it so complicated. I feel like the scriptures are pretty plain: 1 John 3: 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John, this is a perfect example of oversimplification, pure and simple. It is utterly BS as interpreted. It says if you're born again (like you feel you are) then you cannot sin. No one is perfect but Jesus, so if you're saying no one ever is born again ok. Peter was born again, confessed Jesus then denied him 3 times! He SINNED! He repented and was forgiven. but that is not what you're saying here.

Some mumbo about being born again but living in the telestial world and nothing you do again is ever a sin!

Poppycock. Sorry. the scripture is true but it means you can overcome sin and in the next life you will be perfect. There is no one perfect (sinless) in this life except Jesus and there are many (well lots but few according to Jesus, relatively) that have been born again, yet they sin.... Read Peter about C&E, even then even the elect can sin, but will need to pay the price to be perfect, but they will become such.

It is complex. If you think you can make it that simple, then it isn't others that are deceived IMO. Happy you're born again BTW, happy for you. but if you're claiming to be sinless as in not committing sin since being reborn, vs. being sinless for "repenting to damned fast" per Golden Kimball. Then you are deceived.

You're missing the forest for the trees. And Keep condemning your self.

Peter was not born again until AFTER he Denied Jesus. No where was he shown to have been born again beforehand- he didn't even get the Holy Ghot until after the resurrection. Udnerstanding the sequence of biblical stories will help with understanding.

What would happen, Duke, if you read the entire context of hte the letter rather than just taking that one verse and trying to wreck it? When was the last time you read that entire letter from John? My point wasn't even about sin, it was about who is the family of God.

But to your point. John is saying who ever is born of God doesn't seek to commit sin. Please read the verses in context rather than shooting from the hip- another word for that translation si whoever seeks to construct sin, or to create sin or practice sin.. it is the same word used in verse 9.

Finally you condemn yourself by thinking you are always going to have to sin. Paul and Peter, and JOhn all say if you walk in the Spriit, there is no sin in you. So walk in the Spriit. Jesus said to Walk as He walked. Nephi (if you believe him) said God won't give a commandment unless there is a way to fulfill that commandment. So rather than express unbelief, I would suggest crying out to God for mercy so you can believe and stop living in a lower condition than God desires you to live- this isn't a judgment of you, but it is an invitation to live higher. Otherwise you are living below what Jesus paid for- don't do that.. to yourself or others.

[Luke]

His house is the house of Israel!

Ezekiel 36
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

Yep, it’s got nothing whatsoever to do with the LDS Church. It went apostate and God doesn’t need to use it again. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that speaks of fixing an apostate organisation. How would that even take place? Under this viewpoint, you wouldn’t need the Spirit of God to recognise when the setting in order had arrived, it would just be obvious, because the Church would be miraculously taken over and fixed. But the setting in order, at its culmination, will look very different to how people think it will.

[Luke]

Is it possible that the keys have already been wrested and the gospel focus has already been shifted from the LDS to others? What would that even look like?

Not only is it possible, it’s exactly what happened.

Joseph Smith and others said that the Fullness of the Priesthood and the Kingdom had been established, never to be taken away again — but the LDS Church isn’t perpetuating those things. God sought another people.

“. . . if Zion will not purify herself, so as to be approved of in all things, in His sight, He will seek another people; for His work will go on until Israel is gathered, and they who will not hear His voice, must expect to feel His wrath.” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <14 January 1833> page 18)

“We receive the Priesthood and power and authority. If we make a bad use of that Priesthood, do you not see that the day will come when God will reckon with us, and he will take it from us and give it to those who will make better use of it.” — Heber C. Kimball (Journal of Discourses <13 December 1857> page 125)
 
“But the day will come when the Lord will choose a people out of this people, upon whom he will bestow his choicest blessings.” — Heber C. Kimball (Journal of Discourses vol. 11 <6 October 1865) page 145)

[Bronco73idi]

His house is the house of Israel!

Ezekiel 36
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

Yep, it’s got nothing whatsoever to do with the LDS Church. It went apostate and God doesn’t need to use it again. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that speaks of fixing an apostate organisation. How would that even take place? Under this viewpoint, you wouldn’t need the Spirit of God to recognise when the setting in order had arrived, it would just be obvious, because the Church would be miraculously taken over and fixed. But the setting in order, at its culmination, will look very different to how people think it will.

All 1st temple prophets separated the house of Judah and Israel.

We are the house of Israel and Missouri has a valley of our Father, our Heavenly Father who lived in this land. The only man not born of woman.

[fractal_light_harvest]

I have seen a few that have left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints due to their belief that all is not well in Zion or the church. I share that belief but I do not want to leave the church. Some have pointed to the prophecy found in D&C 112 and that it is prophesying about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in a very detrimental and negative way and is part of the reason they have left.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; 26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

I am delighted that this prophesy is in D&C 112. It gives me hope for the future of the church and recognises that it is still the Lords house even if all is not well and some watchmen is not on the Lords errand. Would I want to be removed from the Lords house when things are bad? No. If it is bad in the Lord's house I would imagine it will be even worse outside.

For me the best and most preferrable option is to recognise that all is not well but still belong to the Lord's house. I may sometimes be critizised and ridiculed and avoided if I am too vocal and transparent but that is a price I am willing to pay to stay on the inside even when all is not well and our leaders are in the process of joining with Babylon. I have hope. Christ will expose the devil's cunning and I will have front row seat.

I think this could be right but not sure if about it if i’m being honest with myself. Is the Lord’s house his church idk what it could be exactly? So his house would be the Mormon church only? If the leaders are becoming babylon what should we do if they go all the way with it?