The general feel of this site

[TheDuke]

There is some truth in the fact that it seems not possible to discuss any doctrines any more. every time one is brought up, someone throws stones. Starts quoting Ezekiel or Leviticus or OT stuff to trump modern revelation by Joseph. That is ok, multiple opinions are good, but they aren't opinions they facts and the other person is stupid, ignorant and eventually "evil". Intent is made up on the fly and the person disagreed with is "of Satan", "blind", etc....

It wasn't this way a few years back. It was contentious but there was talk of doctrines, even polygamy, MMP, exaltation, C&E, degrees of glory, baptism of fire, etc.... Do you see these making long pages of comments now? NO. several posts and the same 3-6 haters tell everyone their are liars. Then the more quiet people stop and hide. Only the forceful on both sides continue. It is sad to me. I learned much here in the past. At least I got good ideas to pray about and links to search. They 'weren't about hating TBM's or hating the LDS leadership or how stupid anyone attending church is. Or how proud those are to remove their records and drag others down with them. it wasn't then.

I wish we could create section here for doctrine that didn't allow any personal attacks, just opinions and counter opinions on doctrine, policies, stories, parables, etc... Not allowing attacking a person. And I mean not just people on the forum but BY, JS, RMN, etc... It does no good to call a man evil w/o evidence, even with it, only on a thread about him. But not on a thread about doctrine. It doesn't add a damned thing.

[Rubicon]

Roger K. Young was excommunicated (set himself up as a rival authoritative voice against the Brethren with tent city call outs, etc.). Is he still the driving force behind AVOW?

huh. really? I can't picture that happening since he has been a hard line TBM. I guess I'll google it

edit to add:

looked it up and couldn't easily find it. Do you have a link?

I don't have a link, but I would never call him a hard line TBM. Like many here at this site, he does believe the truth claims of the restoration are literally true, but that the Church is out of favor and out of step with God's plan for the restoration. Isn't a "true blue Mormon" supposed to be fully supportive of the Church and its course of action?

When he put AVOW behind a paywall, he became more strident and forceful in what he said, because off the perceived security of controlling who was listening. Of course, the Church was well aware of what he was promoting, and it had ears listening behind that paywall.

All of these people with a following eventually get excommunicated or self-destruct on their own.

[FrankOne]

Roger K. Young was excommunicated (set himself up as a rival authoritative voice against the Brethren with tent city call outs, etc.). Is he still the driving force behind AVOW?

huh. really? I can't picture that happening since he has been a hard line TBM. I guess I'll google it

edit to add:

looked it up and couldn't easily find it. Do you have a link?

I don't have a link, but I would never call him a hard line TBM. Like many here at this site, he does believe the truth claims of the restoration are literally true, but that the Church is out of favor and out of step with God's plan for the restoration. Isn't a "true blue Mormon" supposed to be fully supportive of the Church and its course of action?

When he put AVOW behind a paywall, he became more strident and forceful in what he said, because off the perceived security of controlling who was listening. Of course, the Church was well aware of what he was promoting, and it had ears listening behind that paywall.

All of these people with a following eventually get excommunicated or self-destruct on their own.

I asked out of curiosity because I was on AVOW for about 3 yrs and RKY would post now and again . He was always the most staunch supporter of the Q15. When covid hit, the site mgmt, inc RKY, went nutty fruitcake and started exing (banning)those that spoke against the church leadership. They also were censoring posts for the same reason. It was laughable. That's when I left and came here.

I am wondering if your reference of his excommunication applies to another 'Young' that was a bishop? . He got exed for speaking against the church due to child abuse being covered up , (if I recall correctly).

[Thinker]

Haven’t logged in for many months, but decided to quickly log in for one reason. To see if the general feel of all the posts still had a negative feel about them.

Sure enough, they do…

I’ve noticed it too but I understand why. It’s like if you just found out your spouse was cheating on you for years & your family & friends were in on it. There’s a major sense of betrayal that in some ways is more difficult to process than grieving the death of a loved one.

My faith crisis was over 10 years ago but because I’m still surrounded by reminders of betrayal, occasionally I still feel the need to vent & try in some small way to exercise free speech which is denied in church.

That said, when I’ve been kind of tired of the negativity, I’ve resurrected old more uplifting threads (or made new ones). Ie:

Good gentile music viewtopic.php?p=561139&hilit=Gentile+music#p561139

‪The Kingdom of God is "Within" you‬
viewtopic.php?p=874612&hilit=Kingdom+god+within#p874612

‪Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life‬
viewtopic.php?f=1&p=1358755#p1358755

United we stand, divided we fall
viewtopic.php?p=1280658&hilit=United+we ... l#p1280658

Freedom & Faith Quotes viewtopic.php?p=1411207&hilit=Freedom+% ... s#p1411207

Restoring Faith in Humanity viewtopic.php?p=1296475&hilit=Restoring ... y#p1296475

FHE Ideas? viewtopic.php?p=980419&hilit=FHE+Ideas%3F#p980419

How to strengthen our hearts
viewtopic.php?p=554131&hilit=How+to+str ... ts#p554131

[ransomme]

There is some truth in the fact that it seems not possible to discuss any doctrines any more. every time one is brought up, someone throws stones. Starts quoting Ezekiel or Leviticus or OT stuff to trump modern revelation by Joseph. That is ok, multiple opinions are good, but they aren't opinions they facts and the other person is stupid, ignorant and eventually "evil". Intent is made up on the fly and the person disagreed with is "of Satan", "blind", etc....

It wasn't this way a few years back. It was contentious but there was talk of doctrines, even polygamy, MMP, exaltation, C&E, degrees of glory, baptism of fire, etc.... Do you see these making long pages of comments now? NO. several posts and the same 3-6 haters tell everyone their are liars. Then the more quiet people stop and hide. Only the forceful on both sides continue. It is sad to me. I learned much here in the past. At least I got good ideas to pray about and links to search. They 'weren't about hating TBM's or hating the LDS leadership or how stupid anyone attending church is. Or how proud those are to remove their records and drag others down with them. it wasn't then.

I wish we could create section here for doctrine that didn't allow any personal attacks, just opinions and counter opinions on doctrine, policies, stories, parables, etc... Not allowing attacking a person. And I mean not just people on the forum but BY, JS, RMN, etc... It does no good to call a man evil w/o evidence, even with it, only on a thread about him. But not on a thread about doctrine. It doesn't add a damned thing.

People are going through difficult times. Many here thought they were built on stone but then their foundation underwent liquefaction. It's not easy. We should all be more understanding and forgiving.

As the ground for many has been shifting it is probably hard to have non-foundational doctrine discussions.

As has been discussed COVID did a whammy on people, and it is a new world, much like the post 9/11 changes, except COVID hit on more spiritual matters, and more fundamental matters like freedom and liberty.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have not got the impression from you that you are open to ideas outside of your personal dogma.

You have also said that you aren't super willing to start doctrinal threads. Brother, be the change that you want to see.

Also recently in two separate threads you corrupted what I said and started that I said things that I never said. Once that was highlighted you ghosted the discussion. I assume that you still do not acknowledge it.

Personally I don't see your actions matching your post.

[TheDuke]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have not got the impression from you that you are open to ideas outside of your personal dogma.

You have also said that you aren't super willing to start doctrinal threads. Brother, be the change that you want to see.

Also recently in two separate threads you corrupted what I said and started that I said things that I never said. Once that was highlighted you ghosted the discussion. I assume that you still do not acknowledge it.

Personally I don't see your actions matching your post.

You don't read my posts too well. I have said that I learned much and am open to learning and discussing. My point was how much I gained from FF but earlier on. Second, I've started multiple doctrinal threads over the past 6 months or so. Had a bit of good discussion but usually derailed by "haters" pointing fingers, not just at me but those who made useful comments. I can push through it, others get either frustrated, or scared and walk away.

I don't try to corrupt what you say. You have said things that you back away from, like all laws and lawyers are evil, then say I twisted it when I put your initial quotes in there. Perhaps you have ideas that are clear but write down hyperbole that feels good, I don't know.

I try to be fully honest in my posts. I am terrible at hiding my feelings and am unable to lie. I might get excited and I might be unclear as my words seems from old school English vs. new-age usage of words (like evil, SRA, etc...). But if you see otherwise, you're reading your own interpretations in defense, IMO.

[Mindfields]

Freedom is in the name of this forum. So opinions from the church can do no wrong to the church can do no right exist here. When one brings up his or her beliefs and wants to discuss doctrine you get everyone's opinion. I guess it ultimately comes to whether or not a person can handle those that completely disagree or have a bone to pick with a particular topic. Some topics have been rehashed so many times and sides drawn that it's near impossible to have any sort of reasonable discussion.

Most love free speech or at least the idea of free speech. It becomes difficult when somebody's free speech is something you vehemently disagree with or find ludicrous. If one believes they already have the truth and wants to discuss their beliefs with like minded folks then have at it. But somewhere in that approach the seeking of truth could be stifled.

"… If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind. But the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.

… The opinion which it is attempted to suppress by authority may possibly be true. They have no authority to decide the question for all mankind, and exclude every other person from the means of judging. To refuse a hearing to an opinion, because they are sure that it is false, is to assume that their certainty is the same thing as absolute certainty.

… Absolute princes, or others who are accustomed to unlimited deference, usually feel this complete confidence in their own opinions on nearly all subjects. … [they] place the same unbounded reliance only on such of their opinions as are shared by all who surround them, or to whom they habitually defer."
John Stuart Mill (1806–1873), On Liberty. 1869. Chapter II: Of the Liberty of Thought and Discussion

[Niemand]

I never tire of wheeling out this clip. This series had its faults, but is arguably one of the best portrayals of Jesus onscreen. Robert Powell's greatest role by far. No "one dimensional teddy bears" here. All quoted from the Bible too.

Better than The Chosen.

Because Zeffirelli was a great artist. Like his compatriot Michelangelo, he was a troubled man with many personal issues, but God sometimes works through broken vessels. He definitely tapped into something with it.

The cast is excellent, but I think it really get into its stride with Jesus' sermons.

[Niemand]

As has been discussed COVID did a whammy on people, and it is a new world, much like the post 9/11 changes, except COVID hit on more spiritual matters, and more fundamental matters like freedom and liberty.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have not got the impression from you that you are open to ideas outside of your personal dogma.

You have also said that you aren't super willing to start doctrinal threads. Brother, be the change that you want to see.

Also recently in two separate threads you corrupted what I said and started that I said things that I never said. Once that was highlighted you ghosted the discussion. I assume that you still do not acknowledge it.

Personally I don't see your actions matching your post.

The Twin Towers business was mainly an American problem, although it did spur a lot of abusive "anti-terrorist" legislation throughout the western world. This was particularly ironic in the UK which had had a major terrorist problem for decades at that point (the Irish Troubles, and to a lesser extent animal rights, far left etc), Thousands of people had been victims of real terrorism in the UK and Ireland by this point, but after the Twin Towers suddenly the term "terrorist" took on a new meaning.

The other thing about it was that it was over and done with in a short time, a matter of hours. The response did not take place in tandem with the alleged even and the response was not as all reaching (except for financial transactions and air travel).

[Theveilofforgetting]

I'm grateful for this forum. I think my husband discovered it many years ago because he was probably looking for other likeminded LDS parents (home educating, non vaxxing, homebirthing types) when our children were little. I came back to it because I was returning to church after a decade away and I felt like I needed to check in with people who don't mind talking about truth. I don't think there is that much contention here but there is always bound to be disagreements but I would say I appreciate and learn from different POV. I don't have the capacity to research indepth or debate so I'm not here so much for that.

[MikeMaillet]

I love this site and I'm thankful that it exists. The creator(s) of the site do a great job and I find the general tone similar to what I would feel if I was discussing similar topics around the kitchen table with my friends. The world is crumbling at our feet, we are about to be swept off the promised land and the drunkards of Ephraim are on a bender. I'm not sure how to put a positive spin on that one. Maybe a shopping spree at the mall might make some feel better. I hear there are great deals on plastic Christus statues at Deseret Books.

Mike

[creator]

I try to stay positive, especially when talking about the Church / leaders. I'd rather focus on positive things than voice criticism, or be an accuser; and have no intent of this site becoming an anti-Mormon site.

That being said, I completely understand that people need an outlet to express their thoughts, feelings, and opinions about the Church, current events, etc.

And unfortunately, there are many people and institutions deserving of much criticism over what they have said and done the past few years (re: the fake pandemic, the not safe-and-effective vax, etc.)

I can't guarantee I will always be right, but I am committed to truth.

[Cruiserdude]

I try to stay positive, especially when talking about the Church / leaders. I'd rather focus on positive things than voice criticism, or be an accuser; and have no intent of this site becoming an anti-Mormon site.

That being said, I completely understand that people need an outlet to express their thoughts, feelings, and opinions about the Church, current events, etc.

And unfortunately, there are many people and institutions deserving of much criticism over what they have said and done the past few years (re: the fake pandemic, the not safe-and-effective vax, etc.)

I can't guarantee I will always be right, but I am committed to truth.

I agree and I applaud you for allowing this place to be somewhere that mormons, and others, can voice their sincere hearts complaint. I don't get an 'anti' vibe from this forum at all. I get an anti vibe from some users of the forum, but it's so 'small beans' and doesn't affect me at all personally... but the general vibe of the forum certainly feels balanced and feels like most are committed to seeking truth.
It's VERY hard to find a site or forum like this, simply due to our inherent appeal to authority as mormons..... This is the only one I've found. No offense to anyone that's part of other mormon forums, but the others are just junk. It's not personal.
So I applaud the forum and I applaud you for keeping it committed to truth and I happily vouch for this place. Good job, hermano

[Niemand]

I try to stay positive, especially when talking about the Church / leaders. I'd rather focus on positive things than voice criticism, or be an accuser; and have no intent of this site becoming an anti-Mormon site.

That being said, I completely understand that people need an outlet to express their thoughts, feelings, and opinions about the Church, current events, etc.

And unfortunately, there are many people and institutions deserving of much criticism over what they have said and done the past few years (re: the fake pandemic, the not safe-and-effective vax, etc.)

I can't guarantee I will always be right, but I am committed to truth.

The current church isn't Mormon since Monson died, so this can't realy be "anti-Mormon".

[creator]

The current church isn't Mormon since Monson died, so this can't realy be "anti-Mormon".

I used the term "anti-Mormon" on purpose (more of a throwback to what Joseph actual tried to establish), as opposed to anti-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints.

[pollibird]

FRED
"I come to find truth."

Of course. A social intercourse site is the only place to find truth.

[Shawn Henry]

Roger K. Young was excommunicated (set himself up as a rival authoritative voice against the Brethren with tent city call outs, etc.). Is he still the driving force behind AVOW?

No, he wasn't! Why do you even say that? He is and has been a TBM superstar.

Roger got the vax just to loyally follow the brethren.

[FrankOne]

I never tire of wheeling out this clip. This series had its faults, but is arguably one of the best portrayals of Jesus onscreen. Robert Powell's greatest role by far. No "one dimensional teddy bears" here. All quoted from the Bible too.

Good video. He did a fine job with playing the part but as I read the scripture, I hadn't envisioned the level of animation that he exhibited. I wasn't there, so i don't know the reality of it. Kind of like when he overturned the tables in the temple. The observer that recorded it could have added intention and high anger into it because the observer felt filled with rage himself.

History is what we judge it to be.

[Silver Pie]

I asked out of curiosity because I was on AVOW for about 3 yrs and RKY would post now and again . He was always the most staunch supporter of the Q15. When covid hit, the site mgmt, inc RKY, went nutty fruitcake and started exing (banning)those that spoke against the church leadership. They also were censoring posts for the same reason. It was laughable. That's when I left and came here.

I am wondering if your reference of his excommunication applies to another 'Young' that was a bishop? . He got exed for speaking against the church due to child abuse being covered up , (if I recall correctly).

Are you talking about Roger or Christopher? I joined the site years ago (probably over 15 years ago) - about the time Roger gave or sold it to Christopher (I was a month-old member when they made the new site, so whatever year that was was when I joined). As I recall, Roger had been called to be in the bishopric and was advised to distance himself from the site. Roger had written a three book trilogy. The first was called And the Moon Shall Turn to Blood. I had those three books. Might still have them. They were quite good. The site was into dreams and visions, and preparing for the last days - oh, and tent cities was a big thing.

In the years I was on AVOW, I never saw Roger post. Maybe at the beginning, he posted a little, but as it gained more steam under Christopher, he was no longer a main part of it at all.

By the time you were there, it would have been Christopher kicking people out for evil speaking against leaders. I've seen that happen. He also was kicking out people who spoke positively about Denver Snuffer. I don't know why he didn't kick me off; maybe I wasn't as forceful as some of my friends who he kicked off for speaking about DS. Christopher was also very nice to me - let me be a member at a reduced or free price because I rarely had money enough for it. I don't think I ever paid the full price. He was a very kindhearted man.

Edited to fix the title of the book.

[Silver Pie]

I love this site and I'm thankful that it exists. The creator(s) of the site do a great job and I find the general tone similar to what I would feel if I was discussing similar topics around the kitchen table with my friends. The world is crumbling at our feet, we are about to be swept off the promised land and the drunkards of Ephraim are on a bender. I'm not sure how to put a positive spin on that one. Maybe a shopping spree at the mall might make some feel better. I hear there are great deals on plastic Christus statues at Deseret Books.

Mike

Amen, brother! This is a safe place to discuss the descent of this country and Church - going to hell in a handbasket - especially if we don't want to be swept along.

[Silver Pie]

Roger K. Young was excommunicated (set himself up as a rival authoritative voice against the Brethren with tent city call outs, etc.). Is he still the driving force behind AVOW?

No, he wasn't! Why do you even say that? He is and has been a TBM superstar.

Roger got the vax just to loyally follow the brethren.

This sounds like the Roger I knew about.

[Silver Pie]

I never tire of wheeling out this clip. This series had its faults, but is arguably one of the best portrayals of Jesus onscreen. Robert Powell's greatest role by far. No "one dimensional teddy bears" here. All quoted from the Bible too.

I just watched the clip. Wow! He was speaking evil of the leaders of the Church he grew up in. He would be censored by some (many?) for sure if he spoke such things to our LDS leaders today (or JW leaders, or any wealthy leaders of large Churches (TM) ).

And calling a Pharisee a whited sepulcher, looking pure and good from the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones was a huge affront and insult. Rather like going up to a member of the quorum of the 12 apostles in our day and saying they were full of filth and hypocrisy, and care more for money than for the poor. Wait.


And when the Pharisees accused the healed blind man of faking his blindness, Jesus' hand on his head to comfort him was quite touching.

Truly, Jesus had kind words for the humble, the poor, the infirm but he had harsh words for the rich, the proud and those who considered themselves holy and whole. He didn't have much good to say about the leaders of the Church in his day - Sanhedrin/Pharisees/Sadducees.

[Niemand]

And when the Pharisees accused the healed blind man of faking his blindness, Jesus' hand on his head to comfort him was quite touching.

I'm glad you noticed that bit. It implies the Pharisees weren't just attacking Jesus but the man he'd just healed. We see the same thing today with the way the church treats people who do things outside their system.

[JandD6572]

So DBJ jumps on the forum, dumps a load, and then waltzes off… intriguing if I do say so myself.

ya, probably waltzes back to where he belongs - AVOW.

btw - I really never knew, until just this moment, when i looked it up,
what AVOW stands for - Another Voice of Warning;
but from what I've heard, their so-called "voice of warning", is nothing compared
to what we have here in this forum.

I am on AVOW as well as this forum. Just let me say how much I enjoy this LDSFF forum. Never thought there would ever be a place where one could speak freely as we do here. Or voice our concerns, and fears, or just a place to vent with or without any responses needed. You don't want to try that on AVOW. There, just as in the church, you are directed on your thoughts, actions, and what you may or may not say. I assure you, there, you do not ever speak ill about the church or their so-called cough.. cough.. PSR group. I have been warned several times
on the AVOW site. So, for this site, just as a line out of the Reba McEntire song, "Let Freedom Ring!"

[Being There]

So DBJ jumps on the forum, dumps a load, and then waltzes off… intriguing if I do say so myself.

ya, probably waltzes back to where he belongs - AVOW.

btw - I really never knew, until just this moment, when i looked it up,
what AVOW stands for - Another Voice of Warning;
but from what I've heard, their so-called "voice of warning", is nothing compared
to what we have here in this forum.

I am on AVOW as well as this forum. Just let me say how much I enjoy this LDSFF forum. Never thought there would ever be a place where one could speak freely as we do here. Or voice our concerns, and fears, or just a place to vent with or without any responses needed. You don't want to try that on AVOW. There, just as in the church, you are directed on your thoughts, actions, and what you may or may not say. I assure you, there, you do not ever speak ill about the church or their so-called cough.. cough.. PSR group. I have been warned several times
on the AVOW site. So, for this site, just as a line out of the Reba McEntire song, "Let Freedom Ring!"

so true.
I feel the same.
Thank you for that my brother.