LDS Freedom Forum

Luke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 8:55 am Free love, orgies, wife-swapping, etc. are not the same thing as Celestial Plural Marriage governed by its strict laws.

In a quaint village, there stood a once-decrepit tree. Some villagers insisted it held sacred secrets, concealing them beneath layers of glistening leaves and colorful flowers. They adorned the tree, making it appear pure and divine.

As years passed, the facade endured, but the tree’s core continued to decay, its branches weak and hollow. Then, one day, a fierce storm arrived, stripping away the ornaments and exposing the truth hidden within.

The villagers learned that dressing up something corrupt with beauty and ornamentation could never change its true, rotten nature. The tree’s lesson echoed: appearances may deceive, but beneath the surface, the core remains unchanged.

Yes. The idea of plural marriage is a decrepit and perverted abomination of what is actually an eternal and righteous practice of one man, one woman.

There is no need to dress anything up. If you cannot see the beauty of it for yourself, then it indicates things only relevant to yourself, and no-one else. Orson Pratt:

“Now I want to prophesy a little. It is not very often that I prophesy, though I was commanded to do so, when I was a boy. [D&C 34:10] I want to prophesy that all men and women who oppose the revelation which God has given in relation to polygamy will find themselves in darkness; the Spirit of God will withdraw from them from the very moment of their opposition to that principle, until they will finally go down to hell and be damned, if they do not repent. That is just as true as it is that all the nations and kingdoms of the earth, when they hear this Gospel which God has restored in these last days, will be damned if they do not receive it; for the Lord has said so. One is just as true as the other. I will quote this latter saying, as recorded in the Book of Covenants. The Lord said to the Elders of this Church, in the very commencement as it were, ‘Go ye forth and preach the gospel to every creature, and as I said unto mine ancient Apostles, even so I say unto you, that every soul who believes in your words, and will repent of his sins and be baptized in water shall receive a remission of his sins, and shall be filled with the Holy Ghost; and every soul in all the world who will not believe in your words, neither repent of his sins, shall be damned; and this revelation or commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world,’ as fast as they hear it. That is what the Lord has said. Just so, in regard to polygamy, or any other great principle which the Lord our God reveals to the inhabitants of the earth.
Now, if you want to get into darkness, brethren and sisters, begin to oppose this revelation. Sisters, you begin to say before your husbands, or husbands you begin to say before your wives, ‘I do not believe in the principle of polygamy, and I intend to instruct my children against it.’ Oppose it in this way, and teach your children to do the same, and if you do not become as dark as midnight there is no truth in Mormonism.” — Orson Pratt (Journal of Discourses vol. 17 <7 October 1874> page 225)

Erastothenes wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:43 am Yes. The idea of plural marriage is a decrepit and perverted abomination of what is actually an eternal and righteous practice of one man, one woman.

Ok then what happens to people like me? My first wife who I loved and continue to love dearly died in an accident. My current wife, who I also love, saved me from the darkest depression. Are you suggesting that in the next life I will be forced to choose between these two fine women? Such a notion flies in the face of my understanding of a loving God.

gkearney wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:58 am

Erastothenes wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:43 am Yes. The idea of plural marriage is a decrepit and perverted abomination of what is actually an eternal and righteous practice of one man, one woman.

Ok then what happens to people like me? My first wife who I loved and continue to love dearly died in an accident. My current wife, who I also love, saved me from the darkest depression. Are you suggesting that in the next life I will be forced to choose between these two fine women? Such a notion flies in the face of my understanding of a loving God.

Can only a man have two wives? What about a woman? Is she able to have two, three or fifteen husbands? If your situation allows for plural marriage then why cant a woman have that also?

Luke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:57 am There is no need to dress anything up. If you cannot see the beauty of it for yourself, then it indicates things only relevant to yourself, and no-one else. Orson Pratt:

“Now I want to prophesy a little. It is not very often that I prophesy, though I was commanded to do so, when I was a boy. [D&C 34:10] I want to prophesy that all men and women who oppose the revelation which God has given in relation to polygamy will find themselves in darkness; the Spirit of God will withdraw from them from the very moment of their opposition to that principle, until they will finally go down to hell and be damned, if they do not repent. That is just as true as it is that all the nations and kingdoms of the earth, when they hear this Gospel which God has restored in these last days, will be damned if they do not receive it; for the Lord has said so. One is just as true as the other. I will quote this latter saying, as recorded in the Book of Covenants. The Lord said to the Elders of this Church, in the very commencement as it were, ‘Go ye forth and preach the gospel to every creature, and as I said unto mine ancient Apostles, even so I say unto you, that every soul who believes in your words, and will repent of his sins and be baptized in water shall receive a remission of his sins, and shall be filled with the Holy Ghost; and every soul in all the world who will not believe in your words, neither repent of his sins, shall be damned; and this revelation or commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world,’ as fast as they hear it. That is what the Lord has said. Just so, in regard to polygamy, or any other great principle which the Lord our God reveals to the inhabitants of the earth.
Now, if you want to get into darkness, brethren and sisters, begin to oppose this revelation. Sisters, you begin to say before your husbands, or husbands you begin to say before your wives, ‘I do not believe in the principle of polygamy, and I intend to instruct my children against it.’ Oppose it in this way, and teach your children to do the same, and if you do not become as dark as midnight there is no truth in Mormonism.” — Orson Pratt (Journal of Discourses vol. 17 <7 October 1874> page 225)

This is nothing more than sick men using their positions to justify their perversions. Its the same with the talks about tithing this weekend telling us that we should just pay and the men who mishandle the money will be judged. If you truly believe that polygamy is true then why dont you go join the Kingstons, the Jessops, the Jeffs who continue to practice the "sacred and righteous," practice of plural marriage? You have followed the apostates who have rejected this supposed eternal principle.

Oh goodie. More rationalization of horny men wanting variety in bed.

Luke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:57 am There is no need to dress anything up. If you cannot see the beauty of it for yourself, then it indicates things only relevant to yourself, and no-one else. Orson Pratt:

“Now I want to prophesy a little. It is not very often that I prophesy, though I was commanded to do so, when I was a boy. [D&C 34:10] I want to prophesy that all men and women who oppose the revelation which God has given in relation to polygamy will find themselves in darkness; the Spirit of God will withdraw from them from the very moment of their opposition to that principle, until they will finally go down to hell and be damned, if they do not repent. That is just as true as it is that all the nations and kingdoms of the earth, when they hear this Gospel which God has restored in these last days, will be damned if they do not receive it; for the Lord has said so. One is just as true as the other. I will quote this latter saying, as recorded in the Book of Covenants. The Lord said to the Elders of this Church, in the very commencement as it were, ‘Go ye forth and preach the gospel to every creature, and as I said unto mine ancient Apostles, even so I say unto you, that every soul who believes in your words, and will repent of his sins and be baptized in water shall receive a remission of his sins, and shall be filled with the Holy Ghost; and every soul in all the world who will not believe in your words, neither repent of his sins, shall be damned; and this revelation or commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world,’ as fast as they hear it. That is what the Lord has said. Just so, in regard to polygamy, or any other great principle which the Lord our God reveals to the inhabitants of the earth.
Now, if you want to get into darkness, brethren and sisters, begin to oppose this revelation. Sisters, you begin to say before your husbands, or husbands you begin to say before your wives, ‘I do not believe in the principle of polygamy, and I intend to instruct my children against it.’ Oppose it in this way, and teach your children to do the same, and if you do not become as dark as midnight there is no truth in Mormonism.” — Orson Pratt (Journal of Discourses vol. 17 <7 October 1874> page 225)

“You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother.”

I can't see the beauty in it. Change my mind. The argument for polygamy loses because women have to agree to it. There isn't even a woman in hell, let alone heaven; who wants to be a man's second wife when she could be his first. It's a great way to instill an intention to commit murder in my opinion, the one wife will be highly tempted to eliminate the competition. And so, if a woman is told she has to live this law to be in heaven, stands a great chance of landing herself in hell because of what she will be tempted to do. If she overcomes that temptation, then she may end up in some sort of isolation; because if she overcomes the desire to be her husband's one and only, she probably will overcome her need for a man at all. What do you think? Would that be heaven or not? I am not in a position where I could say that it was.

Erastothenes wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 11:07 am

Luke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:57 am There is no need to dress anything up. If you cannot see the beauty of it for yourself, then it indicates things only relevant to yourself, and no-one else. Orson Pratt:

“Now I want to prophesy a little. It is not very often that I prophesy, though I was commanded to do so, when I was a boy. [D&C 34:10] I want to prophesy that all men and women who oppose the revelation which God has given in relation to polygamy will find themselves in darkness; the Spirit of God will withdraw from them from the very moment of their opposition to that principle, until they will finally go down to hell and be damned, if they do not repent. That is just as true as it is that all the nations and kingdoms of the earth, when they hear this Gospel which God has restored in these last days, will be damned if they do not receive it; for the Lord has said so. One is just as true as the other. I will quote this latter saying, as recorded in the Book of Covenants. The Lord said to the Elders of this Church, in the very commencement as it were, ‘Go ye forth and preach the gospel to every creature, and as I said unto mine ancient Apostles, even so I say unto you, that every soul who believes in your words, and will repent of his sins and be baptized in water shall receive a remission of his sins, and shall be filled with the Holy Ghost; and every soul in all the world who will not believe in your words, neither repent of his sins, shall be damned; and this revelation or commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world,’ as fast as they hear it. That is what the Lord has said. Just so, in regard to polygamy, or any other great principle which the Lord our God reveals to the inhabitants of the earth.
Now, if you want to get into darkness, brethren and sisters, begin to oppose this revelation. Sisters, you begin to say before your husbands, or husbands you begin to say before your wives, ‘I do not believe in the principle of polygamy, and I intend to instruct my children against it.’ Oppose it in this way, and teach your children to do the same, and if you do not become as dark as midnight there is no truth in Mormonism.” — Orson Pratt (Journal of Discourses vol. 17 <7 October 1874> page 225)

This is nothing more than sick men using their positions to justify their perversions. Its the same with the talks about tithing this weekend telling us that we should just pay and the men who mishandle the money will be judged. If you truly believe that polygamy is true then why dont you go join the Kingstons, the Jessops, the Jeffs who continue to practice the "sacred and righteous," practice of plural marriage? You have followed the apostates who have rejected this supposed eternal principle.

On the tithing allegory, for a spiritual leader who has no checks and balances to tell the people it weighs heavily that they obey God... one wonders if one is afraid to be transparent to honest men, then how must scarier it must be to be transparent to God. And if one argues that honest men do not exist in the lower levels of the church and therefore disclosure is not necessary; then one must also argue that honest men may not exist in the higher levels of the church.

Erastothenes wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 11:04 am

gkearney wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:58 am

Erastothenes wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:43 am Yes. The idea of plural marriage is a decrepit and perverted abomination of what is actually an eternal and righteous practice of one man, one woman.

Ok then what happens to people like me? My first wife who I loved and continue to love dearly died in an accident. My current wife, who I also love, saved me from the darkest depression. Are you suggesting that in the next life I will be forced to choose between these two fine women? Such a notion flies in the face of my understanding of a loving God.

Can only a man have two wives? What about a woman? Is she able to have two, three or fifteen husbands? If your situation allows for plural marriage then why cant a woman have that also?

Well perhaps a woman can. There are the inverse of my situation even in my extended family. My first wife’s grandmother first husband died in an industrial accident, she then married a previously unmarried man who lived for many years, acted in every way as the father to her children and grandfather to my wife and her siblings. Again logic can not suggest that this man and his wife should remain separated from one another in order to meet some “one spouse only rule. “

gkearney wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:58 am

Erastothenes wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:43 am Yes. The idea of plural marriage is a decrepit and perverted abomination of what is actually an eternal and righteous practice of one man, one woman.

Ok then what happens to people like me? My first wife who I loved and continue to love dearly died in an accident. My current wife, who I also love, saved me from the darkest depression. Are you suggesting that in the next life I will be forced to choose between these two fine women? Such a notion flies in the face of my understanding of a loving God.

Brigham Young and his contemporaries did not understand the intricacies of the sealing principles. Brigham himself acknowledged this in the vision where Joseph Smith appeared to him. Assuming this vision actually happened, Joseph did not provide further insight into this matter during their encounter, instead only telling him that they should follow the spirit.

Our understanding of sealing and eternal marriage, therefore, relies entirely on Brigham Young and his associates’ earnest attempts to fill in the gaps of knowledge left by Joseph.

One’s relationships and connections in the context of celestial marriage remain uncertain.

All we know is that by remaining within God’s grace and trusting Him, the path forward will ultimately unfold as it should.

Remarks by Sister Mary E. Lightner who was sealed to Joseph Smith in 1842. She is 87 years of age.]

Well, my young brethren, I can say I never was more surprised in my life than to be called upon to speak to you young men who are called upon to go into the mission field to preach the gospel to the nations of the earth. It is true I have been in the Church from its beginning. Just six months after it was organized, I joined it. I have been acquainted with all of those who were first members of this Church, with all of those who saw the plates and handled them, with even those who saw the angel Moroni who came to them. I am well acquainted with every one of them and I have known them from the time that they came to Ohio until their death; and I am the only living witness who was at the first meeting that the Prophet [Joseph Smith] held in Kirtland.

The Smith family was driven from New York, and a small church had been organized. Oliver Cowdery, Peter Whitmer, and Ziba Peterson were members. Well, I being anxious, though young, to learn about the plates from those who knew all about it, my mother and I went up to the Smith family the next night after they came to Kirtland. As I went in, there were two or three others present. They were all there, from the old gentleman and his wife to all the sons and daughters. As we stood there talking to them, Joseph and Martin Harris came in. Joseph looked around very solemnly. It was the first time some of them had ever seen him.

Said he, "There are enough here to hold a little meeting." They got a board and put it across two chairs to make seats. Martin Harris sat on a little box at Joseph's feet. They sang and prayed. Joseph got up and began to speak to us. As he began to speak very solemnly and very earnestly, all at once his countenance changed and he stood mute. Those who looked at him that day said there was a search light within him, over every part of his body. I never saw anything like it on the earth. I could not take my eyes off him; he got so white that anyone who saw him would have thought he was transparent. I remember I thought I could almost see the cheek bones through the flesh. I have been through many changes since but that is photographed on my brain. I shall remember it and see in my mind's eye as long as I remain upon the earth.

He stood some moments. He looked over the congregation as if to pierce every heart. He said, "Do you know who has been in your midst?" One of the Smiths said an angel of the Lord. Martin Harris said, "It was our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ." Joseph put his hand down on Martin and said: "God revealed that to you. Brethren and sisters, the Spirit of God has been here. The Savior has been in your midst this night and I want you to remember it. There is a veil over your eyes for you could not endure to look upon Him. You must be fed with milk, not with strong meat. I want you to remember this as if it were the last thing that escaped my lips. He has given all of you to me and has sealed you up to everlasting life that where he is, you may be also. And if you are tempted of Satan say, 'Get behind me, Satan.'"

These words are figured upon my brain and I never took my eye off his countenance. Then he knelt down and prayed. I have never heard anything like it before or since. I felt that he was talking to the Lord and that power rested down upon the congregation. Every soul felt it. The spirit rested upon us in every fiber of our bodies, and we received a sermon from the lips of the representative of God.

Much has come and gone from me through the powers and vicissitudes of this Church. I have been in almost every mob. I have been driven about and told I would be shot and had a gun pointed at me, but I stayed with the Church until it was driven from Nauvoo. The words of the Prophet that had been revealed to him always have been with me from the beginning to the end of the gospel. Every principle that has been given in the Church by the prophet is true. I know whereon I stand, I know what I believe, I know what I know and I know what I testify to you is the living truth. As I expect to meet it at the bar of the eternal Jehovah, it is true. And when you stand before the bar you will know. He preached polygamy and he not only preached it, but he practiced it. I am a living witness to it. It was given to him before he gave it to the Church. An angel came to him and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him. Joseph said he talked to him soberly about it, and told him it was an abomination and quoted scripture to him. He said in the Book of Mormon it was an abomination in the eyes of the Lord, and they were to adhere to these things except the Lord speak. I am the first being that the revelation [D&C 132] was given to him for and I was one thousand miles away in Missouri, for we went up to Jackson County in 1841 [1831].

I was there in all the tribulations and trials. I have been in the houses that have been stoned. The rocks have been thrown criss-cross in every direction. I have seen the brethren shot and ruined for life. I saw the first martyr dead and a more heavenly corpse I never saw or expect to see on the face of the earth. His face was so happy. I have seen our bishop tarred and feathered in the streets of Missouri. They took off his shirt and covered him with tar and then took a pillow and turned the feathers over him. I looked at him and thought if ever man was counted worthy to be a martyr, he was. His life proved it for he lived an upright and honorable life and was beloved by the prophet while he lived and after he died the prophet honored him. Two of his sisters were Joseph's wives. Emma took them by the hand and gave them to Joseph.

I asked him if Emma knew about me, and he said, "Emma thinks the world of you." I was not sealed to him until I had a witness. I had been dreaming for a number of years I was his wife. I thought I was a great sinner. I prayed to God to take it from me for I felt it was a sin; but when Joseph sent for me he told me all of these things. "Well," said I, "don't you think it was an angel of the devil that told you these things?" Said he, "No, it was an angel of God. God Almighty showed me the difference between an angel of light and Satan's angels. The angel came to me three times between the years of 1834 and 1842 and said I was to obey that principle or he would slay me. "But," said he, "they called me a false and fallen prophet but I am more in favor with my God this day than I ever was in all my life before. I know that I shall be saved in the Kingdom of God. I have the oath of God upon it and God cannot lie; all that he gives me I shall take with me for I have that authority and that power conferred upon me."

Well, I talked with him for a long time and finally I told him I would never be sealed to him until I had a witness. Said he, "You shall have a witness." Said I, "If God told you that, why does he not tell me?" He asked me if I was going to be a traitor. "I have never told a mortal and shall never tell a mortal I had such a talk from a married man," said I. "Well," said he, "pray earnestly for the angel said to me you should have a witness." Well, Brigham Young was with me. He said if I had a witness he wanted to know it. "Why should I tell you?" said I. "Well," said he, "I want to know for myself." Said he, "Do you know what Joseph said? Since we left the office the angel appeared to him and told him he was well pleased with him and that you should have a witness."

I made it a subject of prayer and I worried about it because I did not dare to speak to a living being except Brigham Young. I went out and got between three haystacks where no one could see me. As I knelt down I thought, why not pray as Moses did? He prayed with his hands raised. When his hands were raised, Israel was victorious, but when they were not raised, the Philistines were victorious. I lifted my hands and I have heard Joseph say the angels covered their faces. I knelt down and if ever a poor mortal prayed, I did. A few nights after that an angel of the Lord came to me and if ever a thrill went through a mortal, it went through me. I gazed upon the clothes and figure but the eyes were like lightning. They pierced me from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet. I was frightened almost to death for a moment. I tried to waken my aunt, but I could not. The angel leaned over me and the light was very great, although it was night. When my aunt woke up she said she had seen a figure in white robes pass from our bed to my mother's bed and pass out of the window.

Joseph came up the next Sabbath. He said, "Have you had a witness yet?" "No." "Well," said he, "the angel expressly told me you should have." Said I, "I have not had a witness, but I have seen something I have never seen before. I saw an angel and I was frightened almost to death. I did not speak." He studied a while and put his elbows on his knees and his face in his hands. He looked up and said, "How could you have been such a coward?" Said I, "I was weak." "Did you think to say, `Father, help me?'" "No." "Well, if you had just said that, your mouth would have been opened for that was an angel of the living God. He came to you with more knowledge, intelligence, and light than I have ever dared to reveal." I said, "If that was an angel of light, why did he not speak to me?" "You covered your face and for this reason the angel was insulted." Said I, "Will it ever come again?" He thought a moment and then said, "No, not the same one, but if you are faithful you shall see greater things than that." And then he gave me three signs of what would take place in my own family, although my husband was far away from me at the time. Every work came true. I went forward and was sealed to him. Brigham Young performed the sealing, and Heber C. Kimball the blessing. I know he had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I knew he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names.

These are things I can testify to as the living truth, and I have told it to the Josephites. There is a great deal said about this church and the Josephites. I never knew of Joseph appointing him to be the prophet. I have never known him to say it, and I have known the boy ever since he was twelve years of age. I heard Joseph say this: "I have rolled this kingdom off of my shoulders onto the shoulders of the Twelve and they can carry out this work and build up His kingdom." Said he, "I am tired. I have been mobbed, I have suffered so much from outsiders and from my own family. Some of the brethren think they can carry out this work better than I can, far better. I have asked the Lord to take me away. I have to seal my testimony to this generation with my blood. I have to do it for this work will never progress until I am gone for the testimony is of no force until the testator is dead. People little know who I am when they talk about me, and they never will know until they see me weighed in the balance in the Kingdom of God. Then they will know who I am, and see me as I am. I dare not tell them and they do not know me." These words were spoken with such power that they penetrated the heart of every soul that believed on him.

Now about these Josephites--I have not a word to say about Joseph. He is doing a great work in the first principles. He does not believe in endowments; he does not believe in some other things; and he does not recognize this Church as the true church. But we have one criterion to go by. Joseph said, "The servant cannot be greater than the Master. If they persecute me they will persecute you." Has his son Joseph ever been persecuted? Have they been whipped and murdered in cold blood? They can go into the world as members of the re-organized church. They do not believe the right one took Joseph's place.

But let me tell you this gospel is going to spread, and you young men who are going on missions, give your hearts to God, for He said, "Young man, give me thy heart." And if you do give Him your hearts and pray to the heavens above the spirit of God and the Holy Ghost will rest upon you. If the great soul that rules in heaven and on earth, and the inspiration of the spirit comes down and rests in your bosom you will be able to speak the light to the people and you will gain a great reward. Just speaking of yourself in your own strength the spirit is withdrawn. You will have no power that will reach the heart. It may tickle the ear, but you must have the power of the Almighty. You must have the angels to be your companions and rest upon you. Let them be your guide in health and trouble. May you ever drink of the waters of intelligence that flows from the throne of God. God Almighty will guide you and direct you and you will walk in the paths of truth and you will receive your reward as His servants for the good deeds you have done on this earth.

This is my testimony and I hope and pray you will believe me for I have received it from the servant's heart, and when that servant comes he will own his people if they are faithful and humble. A trying hour and darkest hours are in the future before us and it is only those who are humble, contrite and honest before God and endure to the end who shall receive the blessings. Faith will be trampled down and there will be punishments come upon those who are not honest. These are things I tell you and they are true and you will see that they are if you live long enough. All I have said to you about the future will come to pass just as sure as the sun shines in the heavens. May God bless you and let you be on the alert to receive the words of light that are given to you by His servants. You will all be tried by darkness and the powers of darkness will come to you, but put your trust in your Heavenly Father, let Him be your guide and support for He is the everlasting light, worlds without end.

I hope you will excuse me for being a little agitated but it is a terrible tax for me to come and get up to speak. But I want you to remember what I have said, that it is my testimony, as long as you live. I want to say to you as I said before that Joseph said if I was faithful, I should see greater things than the angel. Since then I have seen other persons, three came together and stood before me just as the sun went down -- Joseph, Hyrum and Heber C. Kimball. It was prophesied that I should see Joseph before I died. Still, I was not thinking about that. I was thinking about a sermon I had heard. All at once I looked up and they stood before me. Joseph stood in the middle in a circle like the new moon and he stood with his arms over their shoulders. They bowed to me about a dozen times or more. I pinched myself to be sure I was awake, and I looked around the room to see where I had placed things. I thought I would shake hands with them. They saw my confusion and understood it and they laughed, and I thought Brother Kimball would almost kill himself laughing. I had no fear. As I went to shake hands with them, they bowed, smiled and began to fade. They went like the sun sinks behind a mountain or a cloud. It gave me more courage and hope than I ever had before.

He (Joseph) often referred to the feelings that should exist between husband and wives, that they, his wives, should be his bosom companions, the nearest and dearest objects on earth in every sense of the word. He said men must beware how they treat their wives. They were given them for a holy purpose that the myriads of spirits waiting for tabernacles might have pure and healthy bodies. He also said many would awake in the morning of the resurrection sadly disappointed; for they, by transgression, would have neither wives nor children, for they surely would be taken from them, and given to those who should prove themselves worthy. Again he said, a woman would have her choice; this was a privilege that could not be denied her.

In the year 1842, President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said: "I have a message for you. I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman." My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me. He asked me if I believed him to be a prophet of God. "Most assuredly I do," I replied. He fully explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. He said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family, that it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father's house, and form a chain that could never be broken, worlds without end. "What have you to say?" he asked. "Nothing." How could I speak, or what could I say? He said, "If you will pray sincerely for light and understanding in relation thereto, you shall receive a testimony of the correctness of this principle. I thought I prayed sincerely, but was so unwilling to consider the matter favorably that I fear I did not ask in faith for light. Gross darkness instead of light took possession of my mind. I was tempted and tortured beyond endurance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me, that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother. Why should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father, I am only a child in years and experience, no mother to counsel; no father near to tell me what to do in this trying hour. Oh, let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.

The Prophet discerned my sorrow. He saw how unhappy I was, and sought an opportunity of again speaking to me on this subject, and said: "Although I cannot, under existing circumstances, acknowledge you as my wife, the time is near when we will go beyond the Rocky Mountains and then you will be acknowledged and honored as my wife." He also said, "This principle will yet be believed in and practiced by the righteous. I have no flattering words to offer. It is a command of God to you. I will give you until tomorrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you."

This aroused every drop of Scotch in my veins. For a few moments I stood fearless before him, and looked him in the eye. I felt at this moment that I was called to place myself upon the altar a living sacrifice--perhaps to brook the world in disgrace and incur the displeasure and contempt of my youthful companions; all my dreams of happiness blown to the four winds. This was too much, for as yet no shadow had crossed my path, aside from the death of my dear mother. The future to me had been one bright, cloudless day. I had been speechless, but at last found utterance and said: "Although you are a prophet of God you could not induce me to take a step of so great importance, unless I knew that God approved my course. I would rather die. I have tried to pray but received no comfort, no light," and emphatically forbid him speaking again to me on this subject. Every feeling of my soul revolted against it. Said I, "The same God who has sent this message is the Being I have worshipped from my early childhood and He must manifest His will to me." He walked across the room, returned and stood before me with the most beautiful expression of countenance, and said: "God Almighty bless you. You shall have a manifestation of the will of God concerning you; a testimony that you can never deny. I will tell you what it shall be. It shall be that joy and peace that you never knew."

Oh, how earnestly I prayed for these words to be fulfilled. It was near dawn after another sleepless night when my room was lighted up by a heavenly influence. To me it was, in comparison, like the brilliant sun bursting through the darkest cloud. The words of the Prophet were indeed fulfilled. My soul was filled with a calm, sweet peace that "I never knew." Supreme happiness took possession of me, and I received a powerful and irresistible testimony of the truth of plural marriage, which has been like an anchor to the soul through all the trials of life. I felt that I must go out into the morning air and give vent to the joy and gratitude that filled my soul. As I descended the stairs, President Smith opened the door below, took me by the hand and said: "Thank God, you have the testimony. I too have prayed." He led me to a chair, placed his hands upon my head, and blessed me with every blessing my heart could possibly desire.

The first day of May, 1843, I consented to become the Prophet's wife, and was sealed to him for time and all eternity, at his own house by Elder William Clayton.

Today I have but one regret, which is that I have not been a more worthy representative of the principle of plural marriage, and that I have not lived a more perfect life. I can also state that Emma Smith was present and did consent to Eliza and Emily Partridge, also Maria and Sarah Lawrence being sealed to her husband. This I had from the Prophet's own mouth; also the testimony of her niece, Hyrum Smith's eldest daughter, (my brother Lorin's wife), as well as that of the young ladies named themselves, with whom I was on most intimate terms, and was glad that they, too, had accepted that order of marriage. Instead of a feeling of jealousy, it was a source of comfort to me. We were as sisters to each other.

In this I acted in accordance with the will of God, not for any worldly aggrandizement, not for the gratification of the flesh. How can it be said we accepted this principle for any lustful desires? Preposterous! This would be utterly impossible. But, as I said before, we accepted it to obey a command of God, to establish a principle that would benefit the human family and emancipate them from the degradation into which they, through their wicked customs, had fallen.

In all this, God had in view a road marked out for me that I knew not, to struggle against the tide of opposition, prejudice and tradition, to aid in establishing a principle that would exalt mankind and bring them back into His presence. A tie has been formed that will guide me to the highest and most glorious destiny, if I continue to walk in the regeneration, which is the grand object of my life.

No one can possibly feel more deeply to regret than I do, the course taken by the sons of President Joseph Smith, knowing that they have been misinformed; that it is through prejudice, through yielding to popular opinion that they have been misled. They might heir their father's priesthood, if they would take proper steps and honor the principles revealed through him. Thus they might be called to occupy prominent positions in this dispensation, to aid in forwarding the great work of redemption and to seek to bring every honest soul of every nation to a knowledge of the gospel of the Son of God. O, that they had eyes to see and ears to hear the sound of the gospel, and walk in the footsteps of their illustrious father, knowing as I do that he was the grandest personage that has stood upon the earth since the days of our Savior. O, that God would in His boundless mercy, His matchless charity, withdraw the curtain and let but one ray from His magnificent countenance shine upon them, that like Saul of Tarsus, they might turn to God and become his apostles in very deed. That they might also accept the many testimonies given by those whose lives have been pure and spotless, who have sought to aid in establishing eternal principles that will exalt the human race in the presence of God. How gladly we would have them in our midst, did they walk in the spirit of their father.

They seem surprised that there was no issue from asserted plural marriages with their father. Could they but realize the hazardous life he lived, after that revelation was given, they would comprehend the reason. He was harassed and hounded and lived in constant fear of being betrayed by those who ought to have been true to him.

Since 1845, I have been the wife of President Heber C. Kimball, by whom I have had nine children, five sons and four daughters, have lived in the same house with other members of his family, have loved them as dearly as my own sisters, until it became necessary, as our children began to grow up around us, to have separate homes. Every mother has her own mode of government, and as children grow in years, it is more pleasant to have them under the immediate dictation of their own mother. I can truthfully state, however, that there is less room for jealousy where wives live under the same roof. They become interested in each other's welfare; they love each other's children. Besides, in my experience, I find the children themselves love each other as dearly as the children of one mother. In sickness, it has been a pleasure to minister to those in need of assistance.

I will say here, too, that it is a grand school. You learn self control, self denial; it brings out the nobler traits of our fallen natures, and teaches us to study and subdue self, while we become acquainted with the peculiar characteristics of each other. There is a grand opportunity to improve ourselves, and the lessons learned in a few years, are worth the experience of a lifetime, for this reason, that you are better prepared to make a home happy. You can easily avoid many unpleasant features of domestic life that through inexperience you otherwise are unprepared to meet.

The study of human nature is a grand study. I can only speak for myself in this regard. When I separated from others and went to a home with my own children, I placed many little safeguards around our home that experience had suggested, and my children grew into their teens without having heard an unkind word between their father and mother. When the father was there, everything was done necessary for his comfort. To make our home a pleasant one was the chief object of life. When absent I knew he was in good company and where he had a right to be. I stood in no fear from his associations with others, because I knew their purity of life. It is needless for me to say anything in regard to the life and character of President Heber C. Kimball. He lives in the hearts of the people called Latter-day Saints, and his acts and works are known abroad.

As time passed on he seemed to appreciate more than ever his wives and growing children. His last words to me were that he had been agreeably disappointed in my course of life, had appreciated my example as a wife and as a mother, that none had excelled me in the home life. Wherever my lot had been cast, there he had found a place of peace and rest. "Let me now thank you kindly," he said, "for every kind word, for every kind act of your life, and when I am gone, which will not be but a short time, you shall be blessed and find friends." He went on to say that if he never spoke to me again, I might rest assured that I had his most sanguine good feelings, his unbounded love and esteem. "What can you tell Joseph when you meet him? Cannot you say that I have been kind to you as it was possible to be under the circumstances? I know you can, and am confident you will be as a mediator between me and Joseph, and never enjoy any blessing you would not wish Heber to share."

These words were more precious to me than gold, as they were his last, with the addition of "I leave my peace and blessing with you. May the peace of Heber ever abide in your habitation."

I do not pen these facts thinking that others did not share equally in his esteem, as every woman carves her own niche in her husband's affections.

Heber C. Kimball was a noble whole-souled son of God, and was as capable of loving more than one woman as God Himself is capable of loving all his creations.

Sister Vilate Murrey Kimball, first wife of Heber Chase Kimball, was one of the noble women of earth. She was dearly beloved by his wives and children, as well as by all who intimately knew her. Too little has been said of her exemplary life. She was as a ministering angel to those in distress, ever ready to aid those who had not been so fortunate as herself in regard to the comforts of life. She never seemed so happy as while seeking to make others happy. Every year it was her custom to invite all the family to dine at her table, and insisted that it was her privilege to wait upon and make them happy and comfortable. In her last sickness, she expressed her regret that she could no longer have the pleasure of seeing the family together as she had been in the habit of doing. On one occasion when one of her old time associates was urging her to come often, as she had done in her former years, she answered, "You must excuse me, as our own family has grown so large that by the time I visit them all, I want to begin the rounds again." This shows the good feelings she cherished towards her husband's many wives and children. Too much cannot be said in praise of her example. In her demise, Zion lost one of her noblest daughters.

Very sincerely, your sister in the gospel,

Lucy W. Kimball.

Nobody wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:40 am

Luke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 8:55 am Free love, orgies, wife-swapping, etc. are not the same thing as Celestial Plural Marriage governed by its strict laws.

In a quaint village, there stood a once-decrepit tree. Some villagers insisted it held sacred secrets, concealing them beneath layers of glistening leaves and colorful flowers. They adorned the tree, making it appear pure and divine.

As years passed, the facade endured, but the tree’s core continued to decay, its branches weak and hollow. Then, one day, a fierce storm arrived, stripping away the ornaments and exposing the truth hidden within.

The villagers learned that dressing up something corrupt with beauty and ornamentation could never change its true, rotten nature. The tree’s lesson echoed: appearances may deceive, but beneath the surface, the core remains unchanged.

“Pass on still further in their history, and look at their course and conduct, if you will believe the writers that lived in that age. What does old Celsus say, who was a physician in the first century, whose medical works are esteemed very highly at the present time. His works on theology were burned with fire by the Catholics, they were so shocked at what they called their impiety. Celsus was a heathen philosopher; and what does he say upon the subject of Christ and his Apostles, and their belief? He says, “The grand reason why the Gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was, because he had so many wives; there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed him.” After Jesus went from the stage of action, the Apostles followed the example of their master. For instance, John the beloved disciple, writes in his second Epistle, “Unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth.” Again, he says, “Having many things to write unto you (or communicate), I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.” Again—“The children of thy elect sister greet thee.” This ancient philosopher says they were both John's wives. Paul says, “Mine answer to them that do examine me is this ...
Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas.” He, according to Celsus, had a numerous train of wives.
The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were “Mormons.””

gkearney wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:58 am

Erastothenes wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:43 am Yes. The idea of plural marriage is a decrepit and perverted abomination of what is actually an eternal and righteous practice of one man, one woman.

Ok then what happens to people like me? My first wife who I loved and continue to love dearly died in an accident. My current wife, who I also love, saved me from the darkest depression. Are you suggesting that in the next life I will be forced to choose between these two fine women? Such a notion flies in the face of my understanding of a loving God.

In my opinion, yes. I think each of those women deserve to have a man that loves her solely on their own. (Which they got in this life.) She shouldn't have to share a husband in the next.

Nobody wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:40 am

Luke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 8:55 am Free love, orgies, wife-swapping, etc. are not the same thing as Celestial Plural Marriage governed by its strict laws.

In a quaint village, there stood a once-decrepit tree. Some villagers insisted it held sacred secrets, concealing them beneath layers of glistening leaves and colorful flowers. They adorned the tree, making it appear pure and divine.

As years passed, the facade endured, but the tree’s core continued to decay, its branches weak and hollow. Then, one day, a fierce storm arrived, stripping away the ornaments and exposing the truth hidden within.

The villagers learned that dressing up something corrupt with beauty and ornamentation could never change its true, rotten nature. The tree’s lesson echoed: appearances may deceive, but beneath the surface, the core remains unchanged.

An unfortunate choice for a parable. Hollow trees live longer and are much better equipped to withstand the storms. In fact, decaying heartwood in not detrimental to the tree at all, and has many benefits.
Additionally, such a tree is an incredibly biodiverse resource, providing a rich and stable ecologically important habitat.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 1:25 pm

Nobody wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:40 am

Luke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 8:55 am Free love, orgies, wife-swapping, etc. are not the same thing as Celestial Plural Marriage governed by its strict laws.

In a quaint village, there stood a once-decrepit tree. Some villagers insisted it held sacred secrets, concealing them beneath layers of glistening leaves and colorful flowers. They adorned the tree, making it appear pure and divine.

As years passed, the facade endured, but the tree’s core continued to decay, its branches weak and hollow. Then, one day, a fierce storm arrived, stripping away the ornaments and exposing the truth hidden within.

The villagers learned that dressing up something corrupt with beauty and ornamentation could never change its true, rotten nature. The tree’s lesson echoed: appearances may deceive, but beneath the surface, the core remains unchanged.

An unfortunate choice for a parable. Hollow trees live longer and are much better equipped to withstand the storms. In fact, decaying heartwood in not detrimental to the tree at all, and has many benefits.
Additionally, such a tree is an incredibly biodiverse resource, providing a rich and stable ecologically important habitat.

Heart rot causes structural weakness, causes broken trunks and branches. Feel free to attach this metaphor to every other allegory related to trees and branches in Mormonism.

You also cannot sell such a tree.

If you reaaalllllly want to, anyone can find a way to justify anything to match their world view.

Nobody wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 1:42 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 1:25 pm

Nobody wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:40 am
In a quaint village, there stood a once-decrepit tree. Some villagers insisted it held sacred secrets, concealing them beneath layers of glistening leaves and colorful flowers. They adorned the tree, making it appear pure and divine.

As years passed, the facade endured, but the tree’s core continued to decay, its branches weak and hollow. Then, one day, a fierce storm arrived, stripping away the ornaments and exposing the truth hidden within.

The villagers learned that dressing up something corrupt with beauty and ornamentation could never change its true, rotten nature. The tree’s lesson echoed: appearances may deceive, but beneath the surface, the core remains unchanged.

An unfortunate choice for a parable. Hollow trees live longer and are much better equipped to withstand the storms. In fact, decaying heartwood in not detrimental to the tree at all, and has many benefits.
Additionally, such a tree is an incredibly biodiverse resource, providing a rich and stable ecologically important habitat.

Heart rot causes structural weakness, causes broken trunks and branches.

No it doesn't.

Silly thread.
When it comes to plural marriage the only question is whether God approved and if it's an eternal principle.
If you reject D&C 132 and those that believed it then you reject polygamy.
If you accept D&C 132 then you accept polygamy.

All theorizing about how it makes us feel isn't relevant. If God accepts those ordinances then it's valid.

If you choose to reject various scriptures and prophets then you follow a different religion than was restored and your opinion on polygamy falls under an alternate sect, no different than a Methodist, Lutheran, or Catholic.

JLHPROF wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 2:52 pm Silly thread.
When it comes to plural marriage the only question is whether God approved and if it's an eternal principle.
If you reject D&C 132 and those that believed it then you reject polygamy.
If you accept D&C 132 then you accept polygamy.

All theorizing about how it makes us feel isn't relevant. If God accepts those ordinances then it's valid.

If you choose to reject various scriptures and prophets then you follow a different religion than was restored and your opinion on polygamy falls under an alternate sect, no different than a Methodist, Lutheran, or Catholic.

But the thread elicited the testimonies of Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner and Lucy W. Kimbal, which I'd never read before and will go into my archive . . . .

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 12:12 pm

Nobody wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:40 am

Luke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 8:55 am Free love, orgies, wife-swapping, etc. are not the same thing as Celestial Plural Marriage governed by its strict laws.

In a quaint village, there stood a once-decrepit tree. Some villagers insisted it held sacred secrets, concealing them beneath layers of glistening leaves and colorful flowers. They adorned the tree, making it appear pure and divine.

As years passed, the facade endured, but the tree’s core continued to decay, its branches weak and hollow. Then, one day, a fierce storm arrived, stripping away the ornaments and exposing the truth hidden within.

The villagers learned that dressing up something corrupt with beauty and ornamentation could never change its true, rotten nature. The tree’s lesson echoed: appearances may deceive, but beneath the surface, the core remains unchanged.

“Pass on still further in their history, and look at their course and conduct, if you will believe the writers that lived in that age. What does old Celsus say, who was a physician in the first century, whose medical works are esteemed very highly at the present time. His works on theology were burned with fire by the Catholics, they were so shocked at what they called their impiety. Celsus was a heathen philosopher; and what does he say upon the subject of Christ and his Apostles, and their belief? He says, “The grand reason why the Gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was, because he had so many wives; there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed him.” After Jesus went from the stage of action, the Apostles followed the example of their master. For instance, John the beloved disciple, writes in his second Epistle, “Unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth.” Again, he says, “Having many things to write unto you (or communicate), I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.” Again—“The children of thy elect sister greet thee.” This ancient philosopher says they were both John's wives. Paul says, “Mine answer to them that do examine me is this ...
Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas.” He, according to Celsus, had a numerous train of wives.
The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were “Mormons.””

Can you supply a source for this? Thanks.

larsenb wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 3:45 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 12:12 pm

Nobody wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:40 am
In a quaint village, there stood a once-decrepit tree. Some villagers insisted it held sacred secrets, concealing them beneath layers of glistening leaves and colorful flowers. They adorned the tree, making it appear pure and divine.

As years passed, the facade endured, but the tree’s core continued to decay, its branches weak and hollow. Then, one day, a fierce storm arrived, stripping away the ornaments and exposing the truth hidden within.

The villagers learned that dressing up something corrupt with beauty and ornamentation could never change its true, rotten nature. The tree’s lesson echoed: appearances may deceive, but beneath the surface, the core remains unchanged.

“Pass on still further in their history, and look at their course and conduct, if you will believe the writers that lived in that age. What does old Celsus say, who was a physician in the first century, whose medical works are esteemed very highly at the present time. His works on theology were burned with fire by the Catholics, they were so shocked at what they called their impiety. Celsus was a heathen philosopher; and what does he say upon the subject of Christ and his Apostles, and their belief? He says, “The grand reason why the Gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was, because he had so many wives; there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed him.” After Jesus went from the stage of action, the Apostles followed the example of their master. For instance, John the beloved disciple, writes in his second Epistle, “Unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth.” Again, he says, “Having many things to write unto you (or communicate), I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.” Again—“The children of thy elect sister greet thee.” This ancient philosopher says they were both John's wives. Paul says, “Mine answer to them that do examine me is this ...
Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas.” He, according to Celsus, had a numerous train of wives.
The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were “Mormons.””

Can you supply a source for this? Thanks.

https://jod.mrm.org/1/341

Page 345

gkearney wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:58 am

Erastothenes wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:43 am Yes. The idea of plural marriage is a decrepit and perverted abomination of what is actually an eternal and righteous practice of one man, one woman.

Ok then what happens to people like me? My first wife who I loved and continue to love dearly died in an accident. My current wife, who I also love, saved me from the darkest depression. Are you suggesting that in the next life I will be forced to choose between these two fine women? Such a notion flies in the face of my understanding of a loving God.

And… what if you die and your wife remarries? You’ll get to have a foursome. Polygamy works both ways. One woman, many men.

The never-ending LDSFF debate. New faces, but same old debate, with little new information or ideas. What’s the point?

JLHPROF wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 2:52 pm Silly thread.
When it comes to plural marriage the only question is whether God approved and if it's an eternal principle.
If you reject D&C 132 and those that believed it then you reject polygamy.
If you accept D&C 132 then you accept polygamy.

All theorizing about how it makes us feel isn't relevant. If God accepts those ordinances then it's valid.

If you choose to reject various scriptures and prophets then you follow a different religion than was restored and your opinion on polygamy falls under an alternate sect, no different than a Methodist, Lutheran, or Catholic.

132 is its own ball of strings to untangle. Polygamy does not hinge on 132.