Why Do So Many Cults Practice Polygamy?

[ransomme]

The viewpoint you are describing is a modern LDS "woke" narrative, and you really won't find it anywhere else.

“Eve set the pattern. In addition to bearing children, she mothered all of mankind when she made the most courageous decision any woman has ever made and with Adam opened the way for us to progress. She set an example of womanhood for men to respect and women to follow, modeling the characteristics with which we as women have been endowed: heroic faith, a keen sensitivity to the Spirit, an abhorrence of evil, and complete selflessness. Like the Savior, ‘who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,’ Eve, for the joy of helping initiate the human family, endured the Fall. She loved us enough to help lead us.” – Sheri Dew

Basically framing the temptation of Satan (literally Satan) as a moment of righteous foresight instead of a moment of weakness. Eve is great, but let's not pretend that following the devil and convincing Adam to do the same was this noble thing. The point is, we all sin.

Just because the LDS org parrots something, doesn't mean there isn't truth there. They are master plagiarizers.

Do you think there was another way, other than partaking of the fruit, for the Fall to happen?

No.

What was the way? The way was agency. Both Adam and Eve chose to break the rules.

Did Lucifer have to participate? Perhaps not, but there needed to be a source of enticing, opposition.

[Reluctant Watchman]

The viewpoint you are describing is a modern LDS "woke" narrative, and you really won't find it anywhere else.

“Eve set the pattern. In addition to bearing children, she mothered all of mankind when she made the most courageous decision any woman has ever made and with Adam opened the way for us to progress. She set an example of womanhood for men to respect and women to follow, modeling the characteristics with which we as women have been endowed: heroic faith, a keen sensitivity to the Spirit, an abhorrence of evil, and complete selflessness. Like the Savior, ‘who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,’ Eve, for the joy of helping initiate the human family, endured the Fall. She loved us enough to help lead us.” – Sheri Dew

Basically framing the temptation of Satan (literally Satan) as a moment of righteous foresight instead of a moment of weakness. Eve is great, but let's not pretend that following the devil and convincing Adam to do the same was this noble thing. The point is, we all sin.

Just because the LDS org parrots something, doesn't mean there isn't truth there. They are master plagiarizers.

Do you think there was another way, other than partaking of the fruit, for the Fall to happen?

No.

What was the way? The way was agency. Both Adam and Eve chose to break the rules.

Did Lucifer have to participate? Perhaps not, but there needed to be a source of enticing, opposition.

Did they “break rules”, or simply make a choice? There’s a big difference.

Regardless, I digress. Huge thread drift, sorry for that.

[Niemand]

Do you have any texts or teachings about Buddhists worshipping any god?

To me it seems that they make distinctions between a god and a deity. For instance Buddhism does not seem to have a belief in a supreme being or a Creator.

I tend to think of a deity being the same as a god. Much like I can't get my head around how legal and lawful are any different, but just represent the Germanic and Latinate words for the same thing.

Tara and Kwannon come to mind. The current Dalai Lama had a quarrel with the Shugden cult some years ago. Shugden seems to be one of the more sinister figures in the Tibetan Buddhist/Bonpo pantheon.

Well the difference between legal and lawful is not easily represented in concise language. As far as the temple goes for instance, legal is according to man's traditions/laws whereas lawful is according to God's law.

Legal is just from the Latin word "lex" (law) via the French, whereas Lawful is just the Germanic word for much the same. Lawful and lawless are near synonyms of legal and illegal. One lot's Anglo-Saxon and the other's Norman/Latin.

Much like deity comes from dieu and deus, and God is the old Germanic term.

As far as the temple goes for instance, legal is according to man's traditions/laws whereas lawful is according to God's law.

I would argue that such a distinction is not standard English. There are probably other ways to make such a distinction. It is worth pointing out that when I was interacting with LDS Bot that it kept emphasising human laws, even when I pointed out some legislation can be anti-Christian. You can bet the Mark will be "legally enforced", since whether or not it is constitutional or moral, it will have secular power behind it. (De facto rather than de jure.)

[ransomme]

Just because the LDS org parrots something, doesn't mean there isn't truth there. They are master plagiarizers.

Do you think there was another way, other than partaking of the fruit, for the Fall to happen?

No.

What was the way? The way was agency. Both Adam and Eve chose to break the rules.

Did Lucifer have to participate? Perhaps not, but there needed to be a source of enticing, opposition.

Did they “break rules”, or simply make a choice? There’s a big difference.

Regardless, I digress. Huge thread drift, sorry for that.

They made a choice to follow their own counsel.

[Reluctant Watchman]

No.

What was the way? The way was agency. Both Adam and Eve chose to break the rules.

Did Lucifer have to participate? Perhaps not, but there needed to be a source of enticing, opposition.

Did they “break rules”, or simply make a choice? There’s a big difference.

Regardless, I digress. Huge thread drift, sorry for that.

They made a choice to follow their own counsel.

No, they didn’t. Partaking of the fruit was the only way to multiply and replenish the earth. By doing so they were literally following God’s counsel.

[John Tavner]

Did they “break rules”, or simply make a choice? There’s a big difference.

Regardless, I digress. Huge thread drift, sorry for that.

They made a choice to follow their own counsel.

No, they didn’t. Partaking of the fruit was the only way to multiply and replenish the earth. By doing so they were literally following God’s counsel.

They 100% did follow the counsel of Satan/Lucifer and themselves. They should have spoken with God first rather than listen to the devil. It was at this point they separated themselves from God. They became a god unto themselves. God doesn't given a command unless you can obey it.

And that isn't a condemnation on them- we as a people do it all the time. God gives us a command and the devil deceives us or we know we shouldn't but justify it and do what we shouldn't.

[Reluctant Watchman]

They made a choice to follow their own counsel.

No, they didn’t. Partaking of the fruit was the only way to multiply and replenish the earth. By doing so they were literally following God’s counsel.

They 100% did follow the counsel of Satan/Lucifer and themselves. They should have spoken with God first rather than listen to the devil. It was at this point they separated themselves from God. They became a god unto themselves. God doesn't given a command unless you can obey it.

And that isn't a condemnation on them- we as a people do it all the time. God gives us a command and the devil deceives us or we know we shouldn't but justify it and do what we shouldn't.

Satan taught truth, and a lie. God had already counseled them. He told them what partaking of the fruit would do. Now, sure, in our version of the narrative God commands them not to, but why would he tell them right on the heals of that statement to multiply and replenish the earth? It was impossible for them to do that and not partake.

The only reason I brought this up is because so many people today think less of women for the actions of Eve. Adam would still be naming the animals if she hadn’t had greater insight.

[John Tavner]

No, they didn’t. Partaking of the fruit was the only way to multiply and replenish the earth. By doing so they were literally following God’s counsel.

They 100% did follow the counsel of Satan/Lucifer and themselves. They should have spoken with God first rather than listen to the devil. It was at this point they separated themselves from God. They became a god unto themselves. God doesn't given a command unless you can obey it.

And that isn't a condemnation on them- we as a people do it all the time. God gives us a command and the devil deceives us or we know we shouldn't but justify it and do what we shouldn't.

Satan taught truth, and a lie. God had already counseled them. He told them what partaking of the fruit would do. Now, sure, in our version of the narrative God commands them not to, but why would he tell them right on the heals of that statement to multiply and replenish the earth? It was impossible for them to do that and not partake.

The only reason I brought this up is because so many people today think less of women for the actions of Eve. Adam would still be naming the animals if she hadn’t had greater insight.

The only reason people keep condemning eve is because they don't realize they fall into the same trap. Adam knew it was wrong- it's why he transgressed. It isn't "our" version of hte narrative. They didn't counsel with God or God would have invited them OUT of the garden, rather than remove them- because they couldn't handle their own sin in His presence- thye literally tried to hide from God. If your conscience is right with God you don't hide from God. Hiding in darkness is not God. No matter how you spin it- they both messed up. Adam more so than Eve- at least she was deceived.

What version of hte narrative has it where God is rejoicing that Adam and Eve took the fruit and doesn't curse satan because he did what was right and high-fives them as we gives them a lunch-box on the way out of the garden, saying "come back soon"?

Furthermore Telling someone to do something isn't counsel. Counsel is a discussion, learning, coming to understanding.

I also don't know many people that are running around saying or believing women are less because of what another woman did... That is a weird way to live life. I'm sure there are exceptions, jsut like some don't like men and treat them less for what a man did. The story doesn't need to change, their perspective needs to change.

[Reluctant Watchman]

They 100% did follow the counsel of Satan/Lucifer and themselves. They should have spoken with God first rather than listen to the devil. It was at this point they separated themselves from God. They became a god unto themselves. God doesn't given a command unless you can obey it.

And that isn't a condemnation on them- we as a people do it all the time. God gives us a command and the devil deceives us or we know we shouldn't but justify it and do what we shouldn't.

Satan taught truth, and a lie. God had already counseled them. He told them what partaking of the fruit would do. Now, sure, in our version of the narrative God commands them not to, but why would he tell them right on the heals of that statement to multiply and replenish the earth? It was impossible for them to do that and not partake.

The only reason I brought this up is because so many people today think less of women for the actions of Eve. Adam would still be naming the animals if she hadn’t had greater insight.

The only reason people keep condemning eve is because they don't realize they fall into the same trap. Adam knew it was wrong- it's why he transgressed. It isn't "our" version of hte narrative. They didn't counsel with God or God would have invited them OUT of the garden, rather than remove them- because they couldn't handle their own sin in His presence- thye literally tried to hide from God. If your conscience is right with God you don't hide from God. Hiding in darkness is not God. No matter how you spin it- they both messed up. Adam more so than Eve- at least she was deceived.

What version of hte narrative has it where God is rejoicing that Adam and Even took the fruit and doesn't curse satan because he did what was right?

Furthermore Telling someone to do something isn't counsel. Counsel is a discussion, learning, coming to understanding.

I see we have different perspectives. That’s fine. Tell me how this narrative could have unraveled without Eve first partaking? The Fall never would have happened if Adam stuck to his guns.

[John Tavner]

Satan taught truth, and a lie. God had already counseled them. He told them what partaking of the fruit would do. Now, sure, in our version of the narrative God commands them not to, but why would he tell them right on the heals of that statement to multiply and replenish the earth? It was impossible for them to do that and not partake.

The only reason I brought this up is because so many people today think less of women for the actions of Eve. Adam would still be naming the animals if she hadn’t had greater insight.

The only reason people keep condemning eve is because they don't realize they fall into the same trap. Adam knew it was wrong- it's why he transgressed. It isn't "our" version of hte narrative. They didn't counsel with God or God would have invited them OUT of the garden, rather than remove them- because they couldn't handle their own sin in His presence- thye literally tried to hide from God. If your conscience is right with God you don't hide from God. Hiding in darkness is not God. No matter how you spin it- they both messed up. Adam more so than Eve- at least she was deceived.

What version of hte narrative has it where God is rejoicing that Adam and Even took the fruit and doesn't curse satan because he did what was right?

Furthermore Telling someone to do something isn't counsel. Counsel is a discussion, learning, coming to understanding.

I see we have different perspectives. That’s fine. Tell me how this narrative could have unraveled without Eve first partaking? The Fall never would have happened if Adam stuck to his guns.

Easy. " Hey God, there was as serpent who showed up today, told us some stuff- this is what he said- is that true?" "Well my son (if it was required to partake of the fruit) when you are ready, I will tell you to partake of the fruit, you have a few more things to learn first. or Yes it is , go ahead and partake of the fruit, when you do xyz will happen, but iti s a part of my plan, here is a Savior that will help you come back if you happen to get lost but since you are one, you must both make the decision together, but know it is my will that you do so when you are ready, for this purpose you were created- also that other voice may sound true like you heard ealrier, but only listen to mine and you will come back to me."

[Reluctant Watchman]

The only reason people keep condemning eve is because they don't realize they fall into the same trap. Adam knew it was wrong- it's why he transgressed. It isn't "our" version of hte narrative. They didn't counsel with God or God would have invited them OUT of the garden, rather than remove them- because they couldn't handle their own sin in His presence- thye literally tried to hide from God. If your conscience is right with God you don't hide from God. Hiding in darkness is not God. No matter how you spin it- they both messed up. Adam more so than Eve- at least she was deceived.

What version of hte narrative has it where God is rejoicing that Adam and Even took the fruit and doesn't curse satan because he did what was right?

Furthermore Telling someone to do something isn't counsel. Counsel is a discussion, learning, coming to understanding.

I see we have different perspectives. That’s fine. Tell me how this narrative could have unraveled without Eve first partaking? The Fall never would have happened if Adam stuck to his guns.

Easy. " Hey God, there was as serpent who showed up today, told us some stuff- this is what he said- is that true?" "Well my son (if it was required to partake of the fruit) when you are ready, I will tell you to partake of the fruit, you have a few more things to learn first. or Yes it is , go ahead and partake of the fruit, when you do xyz will happen, but iti s a part of my plan, here is a Savior that will help you come back if you happen to get lost but since you are one, you must both make the decision together, but know it is my will that you do so when you are ready, for this purpose you were created- also that other voice may sound true like you heard ealrier, but only listen to mine and you will come back to me."

You assume Eve wasn’t ready. I believe she knew full well what would occur. All of this dialogue you stated already happened or would happen in God’s timing.

God allowed agency to take its course. So many of us assume that all of what transpired was a mistake. It was not. Lucifer didn’t sneak into the garden without God knowing. God was fully aware of what was happening.

[ithink]

Author Matt Whitney writes:

Interestingly, you see polygamous patterns in cults that range from those that mimic much of Christianity to those that have drifted far from it. Early leaders in the Latter Day Saints practiced it>4 and even venerated it5. The modern horrors of Warren Jeffs’ Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (FLDS) were headline news only a few years ago. David Koresh and the Branch Davidians (of Waco massacre fame), Jim Jones (of Jonestown massacre fame), and Charles Manson (of, well, Charles Manson fame) were all cult leaders who either practiced polygamy or practiced partner sharing extensively and abusively.

Here's the full article: https://gospel.vision/why-do-so-many-cu ... -polygamy/

I can explain more on plural marriage and have many times here, including the testimony of some sisters involved with real heavenly manifestations. I also have posted on how these modern-day splinter groups are doing the total opposite in practice in living and obeying this principle in a number of ways, and also which is only to be observed when the Lord commands it to raise up seed. "Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife. … For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things" (Jacob 2:27,30).

I don't expect many to have read all of these posts, however this comes up over and over, and allow me on this one occasion to be extra blunt. I often feel that on this forum I am continuing to just pee into the wind as I try to answer the questions of many die-hard dissenters and mud slingers and who knows who else. I often feal I am posting on exmo reddit. Hopefully I am helping someone, somewhere once in a while.

Raise up seed? That is just false and I covered that in my book under "Ménage à Deux, Trois, et Quatre"

Take the male breeding horse "Brigham Young", for example. 55-57 children with 16 wives. That's ~3.6 children per woman. A single couple could easily do that and often did.

Utah between 1850 an 1950 also had a surplus of males, not females, so not only is the whole polygamy for propagation a lie, it seem Brigham was pontificating himself on the population by using up more women than he should have.

Hows that for extra blunt?

[ithink]

Free love, orgies, wife-swapping, etc. are not the same thing as Celestial Plural Marriage governed by its strict laws.

You are married, correct?

[Durzan]

I see we have different perspectives. That’s fine. Tell me how this narrative could have unraveled without Eve first partaking? The Fall never would have happened if Adam stuck to his guns.

Easy. " Hey God, there was as serpent who showed up today, told us some stuff- this is what he said- is that true?" "Well my son (if it was required to partake of the fruit) when you are ready, I will tell you to partake of the fruit, you have a few more things to learn first. or Yes it is , go ahead and partake of the fruit, when you do xyz will happen, but iti s a part of my plan, here is a Savior that will help you come back if you happen to get lost but since you are one, you must both make the decision together, but know it is my will that you do so when you are ready, for this purpose you were created- also that other voice may sound true like you heard ealrier, but only listen to mine and you will come back to me."

You assume Eve wasn’t ready. I believe she knew full well what would occur. All of this dialogue you stated already happened or would happen in God’s timing.

God allowed agency to take its course. So many of us assume that all of what transpired was a mistake. It was not. Lucifer didn’t sneak into the garden without God knowing. God was fully aware of what was happening.

Please tell me where this is presented in the original story of Adam and Eve. Because the way it is written in both Genesis and the Pearl of Great Price, it certainly seems like it’s presented as a mistake and/or unintended on God’s part, at least with how it played out in the story.

[Luke]

Free love, orgies, wife-swapping, etc. are not the same thing as Celestial Plural Marriage governed by its strict laws.

You are married, correct?

No. I’m probably younger than you think.

[ithink]

And what if I can, will that change your mind? I think we both know the answer to that question.

Show me a public quote from Joseph, on record. There’s plenty of fodder for poly promoters when second-hand accounts are considered “from Joseph.”

Who is Sylvia Lyon?
Who is Windsor Lyon?
Who is Josephine?
Who is Joseph Smith to do that!

[ithink]

Free love, orgies, wife-swapping, etc. are not the same thing as Celestial Plural Marriage governed by its strict laws.

You are married, correct?

No. I’m probably younger than you think.

You are a polygamist?
But not married yet?

[Reluctant Watchman]

And what if I can, will that change your mind? I think we both know the answer to that question.

Show me a public quote from Joseph, on record. There’s plenty of fodder for poly promoters when second-hand accounts are considered “from Joseph.”

Who is Sylvia Lyon?
Who is Windsor Lyon?
Who is Josephine?
Who is Joseph Smith to do that!

None of that answers my petition.

[Luke]

You are married, correct?

No. I’m probably younger than you think.

You are a polygamist?
But not married yet?

I’m a believer in polygamy, yes. I don’t think it’s possible to be a polygamist and unmarried . A polygamist “in my faith” as Brigham would put it.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Easy. " Hey God, there was as serpent who showed up today, told us some stuff- this is what he said- is that true?" "Well my son (if it was required to partake of the fruit) when you are ready, I will tell you to partake of the fruit, you have a few more things to learn first. or Yes it is , go ahead and partake of the fruit, when you do xyz will happen, but iti s a part of my plan, here is a Savior that will help you come back if you happen to get lost but since you are one, you must both make the decision together, but know it is my will that you do so when you are ready, for this purpose you were created- also that other voice may sound true like you heard ealrier, but only listen to mine and you will come back to me."

You assume Eve wasn’t ready. I believe she knew full well what would occur. All of this dialogue you stated already happened or would happen in God’s timing.

God allowed agency to take its course. So many of us assume that all of what transpired was a mistake. It was not. Lucifer didn’t sneak into the garden without God knowing. God was fully aware of what was happening.

Please tell me where this is presented in the original story of Adam and Eve. Because the way it is written in both Genesis and the Pearl of Great Price, it certainly seems like it’s presented as a mistake and/or unintended on God’s part, at least with how it played out in the story.

It’s just how I read it, probably due to how I perceive the nature of God and his interactions with His children. This is my understanding after a lifetime of studying.

[ithink]

No. I’m probably younger than you think.

You are a polygamist?
But not married yet?

I’m a believer in polygamy, yes. I don’t think it’s possible to be a polygamist and unmarried . A polygamist “in my faith” as Brigham would put it.

I see.
You haven't met the right girls yet.
Keep on it though, keep doing the right things, I'm sure they will come along.

[John Tavner]

I see we have different perspectives. That’s fine. Tell me how this narrative could have unraveled without Eve first partaking? The Fall never would have happened if Adam stuck to his guns.

Easy. " Hey God, there was as serpent who showed up today, told us some stuff- this is what he said- is that true?" "Well my son (if it was required to partake of the fruit) when you are ready, I will tell you to partake of the fruit, you have a few more things to learn first. or Yes it is , go ahead and partake of the fruit, when you do xyz will happen, but iti s a part of my plan, here is a Savior that will help you come back if you happen to get lost but since you are one, you must both make the decision together, but know it is my will that you do so when you are ready, for this purpose you were created- also that other voice may sound true like you heard ealrier, but only listen to mine and you will come back to me."

You assume Eve wasn’t ready. I believe she knew full well what would occur. All of this dialogue you stated already happened or would happen in God’s timing.

God allowed agency to take its course. So many of us assume that all of what transpired was a mistake. It was not. Lucifer didn’t sneak into the garden without God knowing. God was fully aware of what was happening.

She wasn't ready. Scripture says she was deceived. God stated what would happen because she was deceived. He stated things that would happen to Adam because he transgressed. God isn't a liar. So why do we make him out to be one? He said "You SHALL NOT." How you describe it didn't happen. Otherwise there wouldn't be "Deception or transgression" What you are saying is you don't believe the Genesis account as is written in more than one source- which is fine- lots of gnostics believe like you do. Some even believe Satan was the good guy. Eve is like "yeah I know what I am doing, but I need "Satan to push me to it." Do you not see how twisted that is? The Way, the Truth and the Life can't seem to guide Eve, but Satan can...

[Reluctant Watchman]

She wasn't ready. Scripture says she was deceived. God stated what would happen because she was deceived. He stated things that would happen to Adam because he transgressed. God isn't a liar. So why do we make him out to be one? He said "You SHALL NOT." How you describe it didn't happen. Otherwise there wouldn't be "Deception or transgression" What you are saying is you don't believe the Genesis account as is written in more than one source- which is fine- lots of gnostics believe like you do. Some even believe Satan was the good guy. Eve is like "yeah I know what I am doing, but I need "Satan to push me to it." Do you not see how twisted that is? The Way, the Truth and the Life can't seem to guide Eve, but Satan can...

You assume she was not. I don't believe Satan was "the good guy" either. I believe God understands perfectly the purpose of evil. We have such a limited viewpoint of what actually happened in the garden. I'll leave it at that. The account of the Garden experience in the Nemenhah Record is far more insightful than the Genesis version.

[FrankOne]

Is this Ymar incognito ?

First of all Buddhism doesn't have a god or gods. Buddhism has deities. Buddha is the first dude who reached "enlightenment".

You have the agency to worship whomever/whatever you want. But YHWH is the King of Kings and Lord of Lord's.

sorry to disappoint you, but no...I am not Ymar. His God was one of vengeance which, in actuality, is the same God that most follow.

As far as Buddhism, I used the term "God" because the average person doesn't understand the word "nothing". Nothing to man is everything outside of the time/space construct. The nothing (incomprehensible existence) is our destiny, whether it takes a 100 or a trillion years in time. Until then, there will be processions of Gods, planets, and peoples working through time. Christ could not begin to relate this to people when he was here so , he talked in parables and never spoke in terms of hard doctrine. "Love" and Forgiveness was his message.

In my point of view, we all go home, without exception, because it is impossible not to. Home is where "God" lives and where Christ lives. We are the image of God, but in this world, we cannot begin to comprehend what that means exactly because we believe in bodies, weakness, adversity and conditional love.

Posts like these do belong in the heretic subforum. My apologies .

I think you mean "likeness", not "image". Image in the creation story is a status not a set of qualities.

Buddhism has truth but misses on many points and misses out on much. And Jesus taught more than love and forgiveness.

I used the word image because it describes the concept of my perception. Not 'likeness'.

My point of view of Buddhism as it is relative to Christian theology differs from yours.

[FrankOne]

Easy. " Hey God, there was as serpent who showed up today, told us some stuff- this is what he said- is that true?" "Well my son (if it was required to partake of the fruit) when you are ready, I will tell you to partake of the fruit, you have a few more things to learn first. or Yes it is , go ahead and partake of the fruit, when you do xyz will happen, but iti s a part of my plan, here is a Savior that will help you come back if you happen to get lost but since you are one, you must both make the decision together, but know it is my will that you do so when you are ready, for this purpose you were created- also that other voice may sound true like you heard ealrier, but only listen to mine and you will come back to me."

You assume Eve wasn’t ready. I believe she knew full well what would occur. All of this dialogue you stated already happened or would happen in God’s timing.

God allowed agency to take its course. So many of us assume that all of what transpired was a mistake. It was not. Lucifer didn’t sneak into the garden without God knowing. God was fully aware of what was happening.

Some even believe Satan was the good guy. Eve is like "yeah I know what I am doing, but I need "Satan to push me to it." Do you not see how twisted that is?

Some cannot actually see this. They are unable.