LDS Freedom Forum

Luke wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 4:19 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 3:53 pm

Luke wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 3:38 pm Total nonsense. John Taylor and Willard Richards were two of Joseph's closest friends - by his own admission. Years later Joseph Smith would visit John Taylor in his resurrected body on a number of occasions.

This is incorrect.
If Joseph visited JT it was as a spirit. Joseph's body was still in the grave. And we know this for sure because he and Hyrum were exhumed several years later and reburied.

I personally think the idea of resurrection is probably a bit more nuanced than that. There’s a good Brigham Young quote to that effect.

There’s also reason to doubt that they were actually the bodies.

That is just old LDS misinformation. They were verified as the bodies of Joseph and Hyrum. Joseph was therefore clearly not resurrected at the time of the appearance to JT. I don't see why this is a problem. Why does he need to have been resurrected in order to appear to Taylor?

I didn't select one because I don't find it preposterous, but I do sort of doubt it, though I believe William Smith's comment that the only reason Taylor and Richards were there in the Carthage Jail is because they pled with Joseph to have the Expositor destroyed because their necks were on the chopping block. And they kept their commitment that they would stand by him, if it got him in trouble. That makes them better men than that they helped kill him in actuality though either way, they were a bit responsible.

There is that other rumor about Brigham being poisoned, perhaps by Taylor and one of BY's wives. I find that more likely (or the saint's just got lucky) after hearing a number of the statements Brigham was making in his latter years. At the rate he was going he was going to either drive all the LDS away, or bring the entire US Government down upon their heads, Warren Jeffs style. Not to mention trying to engineer things so his son would take his place when he died. I can't even imagine how that would have played out.

We already know the 'good doctor' gave white powder to Samuel Smith until he died, so Willard proved himself guilty of murdering Joseph's brother. If you kill one Smith, don't tell me you wouldn't kill two more.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:57 am We already know the 'good doctor' gave white powder to Samuel Smith until he died, so Willard proved himself guilty of murdering Joseph's brother. If you kill one Smith, don't tell me you wouldn't kill two more.

There’s no evidence whatsoever that it was Willard Richards. The first mention of this is decades later by William Smith — a bitter apostate.

Luke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 11:02 am

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:57 am We already know the 'good doctor' gave white powder to Samuel Smith until he died, so Willard proved himself guilty of murdering Joseph's brother. If you kill one Smith, don't tell me you wouldn't kill two more.

There’s no evidence whatsoever that it was Willard Richards. The first mention of this is decades later by William Smith — a bitter apostate.

All the surviving Smiths at the time thought this. You can read all about it in Quinn's book.

How can you even begin to defend Richards? All of Nauvoo knew he was visiting Orson Hyde's wife nightly as Orson was on his mission.

I believe they did it, with Brigham Young helping plan it.

Joseph Smith's Murder
https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/joseph-smiths-murder/

Expounding JS last dream
https://seekingyhwh.org/2023/07/12/jose ... ast-dream/

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 8:10 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 6:55 pm
Dustin tells a good story with a lot of elements. However, if you scrutinize each element, they mostly don't hold up to close scrutiny as real evidence.

His name is Justin btw.

I had just been talking to my son who was telling me about some of the troubles a good friend of his, named Dustin, had been having.

larsenb wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 12:46 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 8:10 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 6:55 pm
Dustin tells a good story with a lot of elements. However, if you scrutinize each element, they mostly don't hold up to close scrutiny as real evidence.

His name is Justin btw.

I had just been talking to my son who was telling me about some of the troubles a good friend of his, named Dustin, had been having.

He had his graduation day. He passed away a few days ago.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 8:57 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 5:57 pm But you seem to miss the powerful idea that they would have numerous options open to them, rather than murder the main author of their religion. Murder is such a big step. Murdering the actual instigator of your religion, is a much, much, much bigger step.

Of course they would have options, however you fail to realize that the idea of blood atonement was taught, to some degree, during Joseph's life. Therefore, if Joseph was going to go back on Polygamy, then they would have considered him a fallen prophet worthy of death.

I think another motive would that the initial Temple endowment shared incredible similarities with masonry rites which *many* masons considered a violation worthy of death. JT and WR were masons so this is another angle.

You can speculate on motive until the cows come home. But you can provide no evidence that JT or WR had these motives or the mentality to murder the actual author of their religion and his brother.

Silver Pie wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 7:21 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 6:55 pm But Silver Pie, what IS the evidence??

I'm thinking of things like I'm convinced Hyrum was shot once under the chin and it came out his face. And that it is very suspect that he could have been leaning against the door when he was shot. The scenario of one of the fellow prisoners holding him, with a pistol under his chin makes sense to me.

And the evidence of the watch not being annihilated. And the possibility that the wounds in the leg (I forget exactly where; too many things I'm thinking about today) could have come from Hyrum shooting to defend himself - because there possibly were more pistols in the jail room than usually reported.

Now, Taylor and Richards could be innocent of murder - or they could have murdered those two prophets. If they did, I don't think they came up with the plan themselves; I think they would have been part of a larger group (even if only a handful of men) who decided to do them in - because Joseph was publicly preaching against polygamy and would have excommunicated the lot of them who were practicing it in private.

The biggest red flag to me was that Taylor and Richards refused to attend court where the court was trying to find out what had happened - and they told the other LDS people not to go, either. Sure, they might have been afraid of being killed, but that makes them cowardly, in my opinion. I mean, they were eyewitnesses, for pete's sake! Today, I think they would have been subpoenaed and been forced to testify.

Sorry for adding but another post to the 10,000 pages . . . .

But the problem with the chin shot, is the lack of direct physical evidence for it. All the original accounts (WR, JT and Thomas Barnes, say it was a neck shot. But from Thomas Barnes’ statement about Hyrum, it is clear he is getting his information from someone else, except for saying he saw Hyrum laying on the floor with his head against the wall.

The only mention of a chin shot comes from one of the two other reports Willard Richards made, all written within 2 weeks of the 27th of June, where in recounting Hyrum’s wounds, describes: “a wound under his chin to the right of the midline” (page 41 of Lyon report (the irony, of picking up on a chin shot wound from the very man you folks are labeling as a liar)

Now you could call the blood stains on the right front of his vest and shirt as evidence for a chin wound, but the blook could as well come from a neck wound.

A big part of Justin’s theory revolves around this chin shot, and that this chin shot was an entry wound. But this is simply speculation, with no direct evidence to back it up.

“Evidence that the watch not being annihilated”. I’ve broached a reasonable idea of why Taylor latched onto this idea several times in the other thread on this topic. You must have missed that. He originally didn’t know what knocked him back in the room.

And the idea that Taylor’s (I assume, Taylor) leg wounds came from Hyrum defending himself against Taylor; once again, mere speculation; as is the idea of more than two guns in the room (Justin did NOT prove this, as he claims).

And the court, held about 10 months later, was not a court of inquiry, like a Grand Jury, but a trail to convict the murderers of the Smiths. The actual people shot by JS fled the scene and were never tried, the remaining defenders were those accused of instigating the riot. They were let off due to garnering false witnesses. And the original jury was made up mostly of Mormons, who were dismissed at the instigation of the lawyer for the defense, not from anything Taylor or Richards said.

If Taylor and Richards did not see faces of their attackers and knew nothing about the machinations of the instigators of the riot; plus the danger they thought Mormons going to the trial might be subjected to, plus the horror and revulsion of revisiting the whole thing (not necessarily fear) and being subjected to more abuse and threats, why indeed go, if they had nothing substantive to say about the individual identities of their attackers?? If I were in their place, I would probably take the same stance.

Were they indicted to testify to the Jury as witnesses? Not that I’m aware of.

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 12:29 am

JLHPROF wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 9:17 pm The idea is pure fiction.

I admit I can't say I know for sure what went down in Carthage jail. But just curious, have you watched Who Killed Joseph Smith and actually considered the arguments? I believe there's enough there to take it out of the realm of 'fiction' and into the realm of 'worthy of consideration.'

The rebuttable presumption at this point, for me, is that JT and WR committed the act. If I'm wrong, I'll readily admit it. But until I see compelling arguments and explanations that reconcile the problems with the official narrative, I'll remain persuaded it was an inside job. And that's really no crazier than Jesus's own apostle betraying him for 30 pieces of silver.

You do seem to be aware of the power of a good story, in terms of Justin Griffin's videos. I''ll give you that. If one marshals enough seemingly valid points in favor of a given hypothesis and doesit in a bam, bam, bam, rapid-fire and compelling way, you are apt to garner quite a few believers.

The problem is that these points are just seemingly good. Once you critically examine them, most don't hold water, and come across as mere speculation or outright misleading claims. One example, was Justin's claim he proved there were more than 2 guns. He didn't, sorry. And there is much more that can be said about his claims.

And the Judas betrayal analogy doesn't hold much water. First, Judas just identified Jesus to the Romans, he didn't murder Him. And when he saw that his identifying Jesus led to His death, he hung himself, the 30 pieces of silver meaning nothing to him. A story I think has credibility, is that Judas was a secret Zealot who may have thought that once captured, Jesus would be forced to come out and smite the Romans and free the Jews from their oppression, in accordance with the common role the Jewish Messiah was supposed to fulfill. It didn't work. This is nothing like having two of Joseph Smith's closest followers outright murdering him.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 12:53 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 12:46 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 8:10 pm
His name is Justin btw.

I had just been talking to my son who was telling me about some of the troubles a good friend of his, named Dustin, had been having.

He had his graduation day. He passed away a few days ago.

Who are you talking about? Justin Griffin?

larsenb wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 2:47 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 12:53 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 12:46 pm
I had just been talking to my son who was telling me about some of the troubles a good friend of his, named Dustin, had been having.

He had his graduation day. He passed away a few days ago.

Who are you talking about? Justin Griffin?

Dustin Smith.

larsenb wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 2:45 pm And the Judas betrayal analogy doesn't hold much water. First, Judas just identified Jesus to the Romans, he didn't murder Him. And when he saw that his identifying Jesus led to His death, he hung himself, the 30 pieces of silver meaning nothing to him. A story I think has credibility, is that Judas was a secret Zealot who may have thought that once captured, Jesus would be forced to come out and smite the Romans and free the Jews from their oppression, in accordance with the common role the Jewish Messiah was supposed to fulfill. It didn't work. This is nothing like having two of Joseph Smith's closest followers outright murdering him.

I totally agree with you about Judas. I think he had really good motives that we ascribe to malice today. Judas may have done things in a totally wrong manner, however don't we all constantly?

As far as this discussion though, it is all speculation. There is no direct evidence to suggest anything.

I have no idea. I don't think so, but there are some weird things about Brigham Young. Marrying Augusta Cobb who was married to another man is very troubling. Zina Diantha Huntington Young is beyond troubling. I have a very difficult time believing that God would tell Brigham Young to steal another man's wife, especially another man as faithful as Henry Jacobs.

This question is another thing of many things I'm asking God about.

There are plenty of reasons to question the official narrative, history after all is written by the victors. As for motive, sex is plenty of motive for many who commit murder and only a fool discounts that possibility. Personally, I wonder if BY, JT, and WR didn’t disagree with Joseph’s recent leadership and felt compelled to create a martyr to cement the faith of the current and future saints. Like Christ himself, it is reasonable to consider that Joseph was “Judas-ed” by his “friends”. Sex, power, and the enduring love of the saints makes a strong motive for murder.

larsenb wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 3:00 pm... And an underlying sub-theme to this conclusion, seems to be that JT and WR were motivated to plot to murder the Smiths, because they were in favor of polygamy, and Joseph and Hyrum opposed it, and that generally, Brigham Young usurped the leadership of the Church in order to institute polygamy…

I don’t think polygamy was the reason since both JS & BY engaged in it. I believe it was a bit like the planned assassination of JFK in that both leaders were getting in the way of the secret freemasonry powers-that-be, so they were taken out. JS did write to his sister how his closest friends in church leadership were probably going to try to kill him. It could be argued that Freemasons carried through with the Freemason ritual threat that if anyone reveals their secrets, they would be killed (& JS revealed their secrets in teaching members the endowment ritual).

Despite unknowns as far as details, I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest the murder was planned & that church leaders were part of that planning. Consider the way it was handled afterwards - concealment of evidence etc.

Thinker wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 9:35 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 3:00 pm... And an underlying sub-theme to this conclusion, seems to be that JT and WR were motivated to plot to murder the Smiths, because they were in favor of polygamy, and Joseph and Hyrum opposed it, and that generally, Brigham Young usurped the leadership of the Church in order to institute polygamy…

I don’t think polygamy was the reason since both JS & BY engaged in it. I believe it was a bit like the planned assassination of JFK in that both leaders were getting in the way of the secret freemasonry powers-that-be, so they were taken out. JS did write to his sister how his closest friends in church leadership were probably going to try to kill him. It could be argued that Freemasons carried through with the Freemason ritual threat that if anyone reveals their secrets, they would be killed (& JS revealed their secrets in teaching members the endowment ritual).

Despite unknowns as far as details, I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest the murder was planned & that church leaders were part of that planning. Consider the way it was handled afterwards - concealment of evidence etc.

Enlighten me. What evidence was concealed? Same question about your "etc.".

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 11:13 am

Luke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 11:02 am

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 10:57 am We already know the 'good doctor' gave white powder to Samuel Smith until he died, so Willard proved himself guilty of murdering Joseph's brother. If you kill one Smith, don't tell me you wouldn't kill two more.

There’s no evidence whatsoever that it was Willard Richards. The first mention of this is decades later by William Smith — a bitter apostate.

All the surviving Smiths at the time thought this.

I don't think they did.
They thought Brigham might have had something to do with it, but Willard Ricgards was not really a suspect.

I find it difficult to swallow that those two "murdered" the brothers. However, I can easily buy that they 'conspired' to assist in some manner. I think Taylor was hit by "friendly fire," maybe. There has been so much of the kill room removed and covered over and altered, it is all but impossible to get an even remotely solid forensics study. From the floor boards that were blood stained to the door to the room being removed to parts unknown to mysteriously be found in a barn in Missouri 100 years AFTER the murders, to the sheer lack of knowledge of what weapons were in truth used, from where the rounds were fired and the absolutely dismal understanding of forensics ANYTHING back then.

Now, all that being said, there is 100% NO WAY that any definitive conclusion that would stand up in even a democrap court of guilt on anyone that was there. Why? Because there is NO possible way to conclude who shot boo WITHOUT the bodies of the brothers. The family emphatically denies ALL requests to exhume them. In fact, there is NO proof that they are actually buried in Nauvoo, on the grounds of the Smith home. They were buried and dug up several times from the time of the murders until the turn of the 20th Century, more or less. They were buried, dug up and reburied side by side, is there a certainty that they have not been mixed up or even switched out for someone else all together???

From Justin's investigation which was quite good actually for a NON investigator, and based on what the WRITTEN statements were, the stonewalling by Church historical curators and several other entities, he was left with conducting forensic testing the best he could with what he had and knew. There were several retired investigators that either assisted or consulted with the testing Justin performed. Now, I am not defending him here, nor am I saying he was/is wrong. I am merely trying to point out and objective argument for neither side.

Based on my personal decades long experience with police investigations, I would walk into this murder and say,
"oh crap! We have our work cut out for us." The State of Illinois could theoretically re-open the murder investigation, which would lead to the exhumation of the brothers. That, and only that, would lay a true foundation for a complete forensic investigation. But there is one itty bitty fly in the ointment; are the bodies buried on the Smith family property in Nauvoo, Illinois the actual brothers? Are their skeletons still intact and complete? Are the pieces of the skulls that took direct hits by presumably .60 or perhaps a .30ish caliber round still in place, or at least with the skulls? If not, can plaster or jello molds be cast to properly fill in the wound channel? Then there are the other itty bitty details...

Where EXACTLY were the brothers standing? Were they upright, crouched, diving for cover? How could Richards possibly know where they were standing, since he was hiding behind the door? Was there another firearm in the room, as has been speculated? If so, where was it, and who had it? The story about the rounds coming in from outside like hail or fireflies, was that even possible? Why did Taylor say and then stick to the story that his pocket watch took a direct it when that was forensically impossible? Why were Taylor and Richards left alive IF the mob was as large and worked up as reported?

In order for anyone in the room to be hit by rounds from outside in the yard, they would have to have been standing almost on the window ledge or within a foot or so of the window and would have been perfectly still. Now, IF anyone in that room attempted to jump from it or if they were directly in front of the window during the attack, then I could easily swallow the hail of bullets. But, where are the impact craters inside the room? 'Oh, they were plastered over and souvenir hunters digging the balls out damaged large portions of the ceiling and walls...' If the souvenir hunters did in fact "dig" out the balls, there would be significant damage that would destroy any possible forensic type investigation of the day, but ONLY IF the Sheriff had desired to investigate the murders to that extent. There might be some lead particles left behind to be found today, anywhere inside the room. The door is a HUGE stumbling block, however, because it was totally removed by said souvenir hunters and NO ONE had a clue as to where it went. Then roughly a hundred years later, it shows up in a barn in another state, where it showed significant damages from the "rounds" as well as damages to the hole, perpetrated by those same 'hunters.' At this point in time, all there or ever can be is conjecture and speculation. Narratives can paint most any picture that can lead to a claim or refutation of a claim. Either scenario is as likely as the other.

There was motive, oh yes indeed there was motive. There was means, absolutely there was means. There was, most definitely, opportunity. But for who and why? Joseph was arrested on a semi valid legal and lawful charge. Hyrum just went along in hopes of defending his brother or dying with his brother. The brothers had many visitors from the time of their arrival until they hit the floor. At least one gun was brought into them. Joseph knew there was a conspiracy afoot to remove him, either by putting him in prison forever or killing him. He in all likelihood knew who, at least, some of the conspirators were. He definitely knew who a few of them were, and he was crushed by that knowledge.

In order to get a clear picture of why it all happened, and to determine IF there was an inside conspiracy, and perhaps even who they were, we have to back up a ways. The list of Joseph's enemies on the inside of the Church was long and growing longer. But why? Almost all of Joseph's enemies, from inside, were such, because they had been excommunicated by Joseph for a handful of reasons. Adultery, being one of the biggest, claiming authority that they did not have in order to deceive, was another biggie and there were several others related to the faith's rules.

Joseph and Hyrum were almost all the way across the Mississippi River when they were abruptly halted by a messenger from Emma that devastated Joseph. But, what was in that letter? Whatever it was lead him to the famous statement about, his life, not being of worth. That piece, right there, tells me as an investigator that NAMES were in that letter and that there was likely a plot afoot to remove him as PSR or kill him, and it would be from the very people he trusted most in his inner circle. Why else would he turn around when, freedom and sanctuary were mere yards away? We have to keep in mind, the Mississippi was NOT that wide in those days. Likely there were conspirators on the other side waiting for him as well. He could have simply rowed around the danger on the other side, that's why I think it was more of whom those names were that broke his heart and will. So, he turned the boat around, and headed back to meet his fate.

This is NOT about whether or not Joe had multiple wives, that's another point of history that really can not be proven one way or another without written documentation of the type that will stand up in court. Journal entries are NOT proof, especially when said entries were made long after the deaths of the brothers.

Ok I will stop with this, because I could spend a lot of time picking apart how and or why Richards and Taylor were guilty of murder, conspiracy to commit murder, or not. It simply can never be proven and without the bodies of the brothers, it will remain an impossibility to even prove where the kill shots came from. AS IN location, we will never know for sure the answer to who shot boo on that terrible day in 1844.

I wish people would talk about the real motive that plagued the saints since Kirtland, making bogus!

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2023, 11:08 am I wish people would talk about the real motive that plagued the saints since Kirtland, making bogus!

I agree. What motive are you thinking about with your statement?

Yeliab wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2023, 11:47 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2023, 11:08 am I wish people would talk about the real motive that plagued the saints since Kirtland, making bogus!

I agree. What motive are you thinking about with your statement?

Making bogus!

That was a term used for making counterfeit money.

The guys who wanted to counterfeit would have to find a printing press. The church always needed a printing press so these guys flocked to them. Because of the forgiving love that one “should” have these conmen do very well around “Mormons”. Even today they succeed in Utah better then anywhere else.

Telavian wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 4:48 pm . . . . . As far as this discussion though, it is all speculation. There is no direct evidence to suggest anything.

Well, this statement may be going a bit too far . . . . .

But regarding the WR/JT assassination theory, there is no direct evidence.

larsenb wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2023, 12:03 pm Well, this statement may be going a bit too far . . . . .

But regarding the WR/JT assassination theory, there is no direct evidence.

You have direct evidence to suggest that Joseph was killed by the mob?
You have direct evidence to suggest that he wasn't killed by the mob, but someone or something else?