LDS Freedom Forum

JohnnyL wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 5:17 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:08 pm Utah Senate President and latter-day saint Stuart Adams said,

I think they have a First Amendment right, I believe there’s protections, and I don’t think I want to put a clergy in a spot where they have to be excommunicated or go to jail. And those are the options and I don’t think that’s right.

In other words, Adams is stating that according to the “broad coalition of churches” he spoke to that if a clergy member, such as a Latter-day Saint bishop, reported child abuse that was revealed during a confession, he would be excommunicated. And, if the bishop didn’t report child abuse, and there was a law mandating that abuse be reported, the bishop would jailed.

So, the Church, apparently, has told it's lobbyists to imply to Utah legislators that if a bishop were to report a child abuser who had confessed to them that the bishop, not the abuser, would be excommunicated. What kind of a messed up world is this?!? I'm stunned.

I'm wracking my brain trying to understand the doctrinal basis for this and I'm drawing a blank. I know of no scripture which establishes the sanctity of confessional and I can't think of one thing from Joseph Smith that would establish this. He had several instances in which circumstances required that he reveal things which were confidential. The whole practice and idea didn't even start until 1215, so it seems like it must be an apostate Catholic idea. What the h*$# is our problem?

That's a lot of assuming--too much for any comment or discussion.

ransomme wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 12:28 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 10:12 am

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:25 pm

This is an example of why lawyers are morally bankrupt, because it's rules and laws over what's right and good.

If a bishop allows abuse to continue then he becomes morally culpable.

I would proudly be excommunicated with a clean conscience before God.

And you say the victory would be short lived. What's the alternative, not victory at all?

Another BS blanket claim. Do you think about what you write? "lawyers re morally bankrupt" REALLY? and it is "because of rules and laws" REALLY. You see a world without rules and laws? You don't know god my friend. He has many rules and laws, and his leaders are called "judges", just like lawyers, always his ways on this earth have been with rules, laws, judges and lawyers. Terrible statements to make, condemning with blanket epotaphs.

What do you call a profession/a group of people that prioritizes legal/illegal over right/wrong, good/evil?

The profession is not based on morality, it's based on law.

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 9:48 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 12:28 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 10:12 am

Another BS blanket claim. Do you think about what you write? "lawyers re morally bankrupt" REALLY? and it is "because of rules and laws" REALLY. You see a world without rules and laws? You don't know god my friend. He has many rules and laws, and his leaders are called "judges", just like lawyers, always his ways on this earth have been with rules, laws, judges and lawyers. Terrible statements to make, condemning with blanket epotaphs.

What do you call a profession/a group of people that prioritizes legal/illegal over right/wrong, good/evil?

The profession is not based on morality, it's based on law.

Wow! you see some evil in laws and rules. I guess you're a bit pissed at god these days. Moses on down.

ransomme wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 1:30 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 9:48 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 12:28 pm

What do you call a profession/a group of people that prioritizes legal/illegal over right/wrong, good/evil?

The profession is not based on morality, it's based on law.

Wow! you see some evil in laws and rules. I guess you're a bit pissed at god these days. Moses on down.

Why do you seem to have a tendency to conclude the worst? In two consecutive responses to me you corrupted what I said into something I did not say. ( this one, and the one about polygamy/whoredoms)

I did not say that there is evil in laws and rules. I said that the Law is not based on morals per se. And in fact we don't want to legislate morality. That doesn't mean that a law can't be moral, but it is not a requirement.

Is understanding that the legal system is based on what's legal vs illegal beyond you?

I don't think it is.

Do you see a difference between good and legal? And evil and illegal?

The system of laws is not based on what is right or wrong, good or evil.

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 11:51 am

ransomme wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 1:30 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 9:48 pm
Wow! you see some evil in laws and rules. I guess you're a bit pissed at god these days. Moses on down.

Why do you seem to have a tendency to conclude the worst? In two consecutive responses to me you corrupted what I said into something I did not say. ( this one, and the one about polygamy/whoredoms)

I did not say that there is evil in laws and rules. I said that the Law is not based on morals per se. And in fact we don't want to legislate morality. That doesn't mean that a law can't be moral, but it is not a requirement.

Is understanding that the legal system is based on what's legal vs illegal beyond you?

I don't think it is.

Do you see a difference between good and legal? And evil and illegal?

The system of laws is not based on what is right or wrong, good or evil.

Anything can be corrupted, but laws are how god operates at all levels in his kingdoms and there is nothing evil or wrong there. The laws are moral and are based on morality, at least was/were in USA. Not saying perfection or that many new laws aren't corrupted. But it isn't the law or the methods or the judges. It is evil people inside the system.

How can you say the "system" isn't moral? See how the HP's and even Moses system which his FIL had to help with wasn't perfect, nor Joseph's, even Abraham had issues with the city folks, could go on and on. Laws and justice are required and IS based on god's ways and morality. Corruption is Satan's path. getting rid of laws is also Satan's path.

ransomme wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 1:52 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 11:51 am

ransomme wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 1:30 am

Why do you seem to have a tendency to conclude the worst? In two consecutive responses to me you corrupted what I said into something I did not say. ( this one, and the one about polygamy/whoredoms)

I did not say that there is evil in laws and rules. I said that the Law is not based on morals per se. And in fact we don't want to legislate morality. That doesn't mean that a law can't be moral, but it is not a requirement.

Is understanding that the legal system is based on what's legal vs illegal beyond you?

I don't think it is.

Do you see a difference between good and legal? And evil and illegal?

The system of laws is not based on what is right or wrong, good or evil.

Anything can be corrupted, but laws are how god operates at all levels in his kingdoms and there is nothing evil or wrong there. The laws are moral and are based on morality, at least was/were in USA. Not saying perfection or that many new laws aren't corrupted. But it isn't the law or the methods or the judges. It is evil people inside the system.

How can you say the "system" isn't moral? See how the HP's and even Moses system which his FIL had to help with wasn't perfect, nor Joseph's, even Abraham had issues with the city folks, could go on and on. Laws and justice are required and IS based on god's ways and morality. Corruption is Satan's path. getting rid of laws is also Satan's path.

Laws are neither inherently moral nor immoral. Sure, the first laws probably tended to be moral as well, like don't kill, don't steal, etc. But most laws today are neither (like traffic, zoning, UCC, etc.). Most are arbitrary like 25 mph on a city street. Why not 24 or 26?

Is it a lawyer's job to advise their clients on what is moral, or what is legal?

Do judges judge according to what's legal/illegal, or what's right and wrong?

It's also not about getting rid of laws. I am just recognizing that man's laws are not necessarily based on mortality generally.

Do you understand the difference of what I said and am saying and what you think I was saying?

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 3:02 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 1:52 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 11:51 am

Anything can be corrupted, but laws are how god operates at all levels in his kingdoms and there is nothing evil or wrong there. The laws are moral and are based on morality, at least was/were in USA. Not saying perfection or that many new laws aren't corrupted. But it isn't the law or the methods or the judges. It is evil people inside the system.

How can you say the "system" isn't moral? See how the HP's and even Moses system which his FIL had to help with wasn't perfect, nor Joseph's, even Abraham had issues with the city folks, could go on and on. Laws and justice are required and IS based on god's ways and morality. Corruption is Satan's path. getting rid of laws is also Satan's path.

Laws are neither inherently moral nor immoral. Sure, the first laws probably tended to be moral as well, like don't kill, don't steal, etc. But most laws today are neither (like traffic, zoning, UCC, etc.). Most are arbitrary like 25 mph on a city street. Why not 24 or 26?

Is it a lawyer's job to advise their clients on what is moral, or what is legal?

Do judges judge according to what's legal/illegal, or what's right and wrong?

It's also not about getting rid of laws. I am just recognizing that man's laws are not necessarily based on mortality generally.

Do you understand the difference of what I said and am saying and what you think I was saying?

No, you're out of bounds. You say law is bad and therefore lawyers are bad. I don't like lawyers either, I see bad laws on the books. but I said the principle of laws and people to prosecute and defend the laws is "justice" and allows "mercy" and is god's way. You started this by saying all lawyers and the laws are evil.

This is what the Lord Said. I will not comment and so there is no miss communication, no mingling at all, Just the Lord's words, there are many places he says this in OT, NT, BoM, but this is the most clear of them all.

34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is agoverned by law is also preserved by law and perfected and bsanctified by the same.

35 That which abreaketh a law, and babideth not by claw, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, djustice, nor ejudgment. Therefore, they must remain ffilthy still.

36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many akingdoms; for there is no bspace in the which there is no ckingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38 And unto every kingdom is given a alaw; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

I have no more to say, the Lord said it all.

Atrasado wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 7:01 pm

JohnnyL wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 5:17 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:08 pm Utah Senate President and latter-day saint Stuart Adams said,

In other words, Adams is stating that according to the “broad coalition of churches” he spoke to that if a clergy member, such as a Latter-day Saint bishop, reported child abuse that was revealed during a confession, he would be excommunicated. And, if the bishop didn’t report child abuse, and there was a law mandating that abuse be reported, the bishop would jailed.

So, the Church, apparently, has told it's lobbyists to imply to Utah legislators that if a bishop were to report a child abuser who had confessed to them that the bishop, not the abuser, would be excommunicated. What kind of a messed up world is this?!? I'm stunned.

I'm wracking my brain trying to understand the doctrinal basis for this and I'm drawing a blank. I know of no scripture which establishes the sanctity of confessional and I can't think of one thing from Joseph Smith that would establish this. He had several instances in which circumstances required that he reveal things which were confidential. The whole practice and idea didn't even start until 1215, so it seems like it must be an apostate Catholic idea. What the h*$# is our problem?

That's a lot of assuming--too much for any comment or discussion.

No. It's not. It's stated in the article that the Latter-day Saints were part of the coalition. And it's in Utah. If you don't think that the Church controls Utah politics than you need to learn more about how the world works. Things aren't quite as iron grip as they were 20 years ago, but if the Church really wants something or really doesn't want it it almost always gets it's way.

JohnnyL wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 5:23 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 7:01 pm

JohnnyL wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 5:17 pm
That's a lot of assuming--too much for any comment or discussion.

No. It's not. It's stated in the article that the Latter-day Saints were part of the coalition. And it's in Utah. If you don't think that the Church controls Utah politics than you need to learn more about how the world works. Things aren't quite as iron grip as they were 20 years ago, but if the Church really wants something or really doesn't want it it almost always gets it's way.

Like the marijuana thing?
Yes, part of a coalition.
Yes, in Utah.
A man says someone in the Church said...
Maybe some feel fine with assumptions, but I don't.

Atrasado wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 5:28 pm

JohnnyL wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 5:23 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 7:01 pm
No. It's not. It's stated in the article that the Latter-day Saints were part of the coalition. And it's in Utah. If you don't think that the Church controls Utah politics than you need to learn more about how the world works. Things aren't quite as iron grip as they were 20 years ago, but if the Church really wants something or really doesn't want it it almost always gets it's way.

Like the marijuana thing?
Yes, part of a coalition.
Yes, in Utah.
A man says someone in the Church said...
Maybe some feel fine with assumptions, but I don't.

Ok. So we can't use our brains and see what is clearly in front of us. Gotcha. You must have gone to law school.

ransomme wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 4:07 pm
I clearly never said that the law was bad. I am clearly saying that the law is not inherently good or bad. Good moral laws can be made, and bad immoral laws can be made. Do we need a rundown of historical examples from the US, USSR, Nazi Germany, China, Rome, Egypt, etc.?

I think you might be playing obtuse on purpose.

Nope, your saying "the law is not inherently good or bad." law is good. I gave you scripture to back it up. I never said, in fact pointed out, that earthly laws are not perfect, neither the legal system. Hence, I said laws can be misused. Yet you never clarify between what laws, like I tried to do, you just keep claiming there is no morality in "laws". I started this conversation saying god uses laws. and you started say all laws are evil. Go look at your statement. Then you said enforcing the laws (my words on your long sentences) is "evil", evil is YOUR word not mine. I said it could be used that way but inherently in the universe of god, there are laws everywhere, and only the celestial are perfect and laws are at all levels, as well as the blessings and cursings. I gave you the quote of levels of laws. But you are stuck thinking only a bishop or someone can decide laws and judgements honorably. It is true laws are being destroyed in the US and world today, but it is WOKE to say the laws and enforcement and judges are bad vs. the individuals screwing things up. That is what WOKE IS! Defund the police, nuter the military, get DA's that don't charge, judges that don't judge, eliminate the law. Not god's way. That is my point and scriptures say it from the GoE until now.

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 7:25 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 4:07 pm
I clearly never said that the law was bad. I am clearly saying that the law is not inherently good or bad. Good moral laws can be made, and bad immoral laws can be made. Do we need a rundown of historical examples from the US, USSR, Nazi Germany, China, Rome, Egypt, etc.?

I think you might be playing obtuse on purpose.

Nope, your saying "the law is not inherently good or bad." law is good. I gave you scripture to back it up. I never said, in fact pointed out, that earthly laws are not perfect, neither the legal system. Hence, I said laws can be misused. Yet you never clarify between what laws, like I tried to do, you just keep claiming there is no morality in "laws". I started this conversation saying god uses laws. and you started say all laws are evil. Go look at your statement. Then you said enforcing the laws (my words on your long sentences) is "evil", evil is YOUR word not mine. I said it could be used that way but inherently in the universe of god, there are laws everywhere, and only the celestial are perfect and laws are at all levels, as well as the blessings and cursings. I gave you the quote of levels of laws. But you are stuck thinking only a bishop or someone can decide laws and judgements honorably. It is true laws are being destroyed in the US and world today, but it is WOKE to say the laws and enforcement and judges are bad vs. the individuals screwing things up. That is what WOKE IS! Defund the police, nuter the military, get DA's that don't charge, judges that don't judge, eliminate the law. Not god's way. That is my point and scriptures say it from the GoE until now.