LDS Freedom Forum

Luke wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 1:00 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 12:34 pm

Luke wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 12:16 pm

I don't believe that.

"I am entitled to the keys of the priesthood according to lineage and blood, so is Brother H. C. Kimball and many others — have taken kingly power and grades of the priesthood — this we would have taught in the temple if time had permitted. Joseph Smith was entitled to the keys of the priesthood according to blood: still he was the fourth son. But when we get another temple built, then we will teach you concerning these things." — Brigham Young (Complete Discourses of Brigham Young vol. 1 <16 February 1847> page 182)

Are you a descendant of Joseph Smith?
Joseph was descended from both Ephraim and Judah, and it has also been claimed that he was a descendant of Jesus, although that opens a whole can of worms of course.

No, but Brigham doesn’t limit his saying to Joseph Smith alone, he says that himself (BY), Heber C. Kimball and many others were entitled to the Priesthood by virtue of lineage. This is also the substance of D&C 86 and 113.

Brigham was related to Joseph. Heber was related Brigham.

Silver Pie wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 1:13 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 8:31 amit added "in accordance with God's law".

So, you and Cyclops are right if this is the case, but it wasn't the case when I went through in 1990 after they made huge changes.

When was this change made? Because it wasn't there when I was actively going to the temple.


Can anyone tell me when they added that phrase to the temple endowment?

It has been in the past several years. During Nelson’s presidency if I remember correctly. Same sex marriage was legalized in the USA in 2015, so it was after that. I believe they changed it to close the loophole. The previous wording like you said, left a loophole. There wasn’t a loophole in most of the USA because it said “legally and lawfully married” and same sex marriage was not legal. But when it became legal there was now a loophole. So they added the phrase “according to God’s law”.

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 2:39 pm It has been in the past several years. During Nelson’s presidency if I remember correctly. Same sex marriage was legalized in the USA in 2015, so it was after that. I believe they changed it to close the loophole. The previous wording like you said, left a loophole. There wasn’t a loophole in most of the USA because it said “legally and lawfully married” and same sex marriage was not legal. But when it became legal there was now a loophole. So they added the phrase “according to God’s law”.

I see. Thank you. I think the last time I went to a temple was in 2013, so maybe it was changed soon after that.

It makes sense that they'd change it if they saw the loophole they'd inadvertently created in 1990.

Silver Pie wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 2:44 pm

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 2:39 pm It has been in the past several years. During Nelson’s presidency if I remember correctly. Same sex marriage was legalized in the USA in 2015, so it was after that. I believe they changed it to close the loophole. The previous wording like you said, left a loophole. There wasn’t a loophole in most of the USA because it said “legally and lawfully married” and same sex marriage was not legal. But when it became legal there was now a loophole. So they added the phrase “according to God’s law”.

I see. Thank you. I think the last time I went to a temple was in 2013, so maybe it was changed soon after that.

It makes sense that they'd change it if they saw the loophole they'd inadvertently created in 1990.

There have been so many changes. I wish someone was keeping track of them all. And maybe someone is. But I don’t know of anyone doing that. The website you referenced did a good job of documenting it all up until the past decade or two. Now it is not up to date. The changes have been coming fast.

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 3:11 pm There have been so many changes. I wish someone was keeping track of them all. And maybe someone is. But I don’t know of anyone doing that. The website you referenced did a good job of documenting it all up until the past decade or two. Now it is not up to date. The changes have been coming fast.

I wish that site had kept things up to date. I like that it was keeping track of the changes, but is not hostile toward the LDS Church. I'm sad that I went to it to find the latest changes and saw nothing newer than 1990.

Niemand wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 8:47 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 8:33 am Back to Tim Ballard, I suspect he is not guilty of the things he is accused of.

I don't know whether he is or not, but like Russell Brand, they set these people up and knock them down. (Brand always was a shagger, I knew that pre-lockdown.)

Unfortunately for all involved, all the info will soon be promulgated in open court.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 2:03 pm

Luke wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 1:00 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 12:34 pm

Are you a descendant of Joseph Smith?
Joseph was descended from both Ephraim and Judah, and it has also been claimed that he was a descendant of Jesus, although that opens a whole can of worms of course.

No, but Brigham doesn’t limit his saying to Joseph Smith alone, he says that himself (BY), Heber C. Kimball and many others were entitled to the Priesthood by virtue of lineage. This is also the substance of D&C 86 and 113.

Brigham was related to Joseph. Heber was related Brigham.

Not as descendants though.

So it’s evident that the right to Priesthood went to numerous people.

Considering it is 2000 years ago, if Jesus had children there would be a lot of them around. Charlemagne is said to have millions of descendants and is centuries later.

If we went back two thousand years, I would have common ancestry with a number of folk on this forum.

Niemand wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 4:12 pm Considering it is 2000 years ago, if Jesus had children there would be a lot of them around. Charlemagne is said to have millions of descendants and is centuries later.

If we went back two thousand years, I would have common ancestry with a number of folk on this forum.

500-700 hundred years would probably show connection to almost all the members of the forum.

Silver Pie wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 3:18 pm I wish that site had kept things up to date. I like that it was keeping track of the changes, but is not hostile toward the LDS Church. I'm sad that I went to it to find the latest changes and saw nothing newer than 1990.

Do you know if the wording is even available? Specific information about the temple is hard to find.
I can search and try to find out the wording for comparison purposes.

Telavian wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 4:42 pm Do you know if the wording is even available? Specific information about the temple is hard to find.
I can search and try to find out the wording for comparison purposes.

I don't. I expected it to be on the site I went to, but when both Cyclops and Robin Hood said the same thing, I began to see that the site I went to had not been updated.

If you can find that, it would be great!

Luke wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 4:07 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 2:03 pm

Luke wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 1:00 pm

No, but Brigham doesn’t limit his saying to Joseph Smith alone, he says that himself (BY), Heber C. Kimball and many others were entitled to the Priesthood by virtue of lineage. This is also the substance of D&C 86 and 113.

Brigham was related to Joseph. Heber was related Brigham.

Not as descendants though.

So it’s evident that the right to Priesthood went to numerous people.

They wouldn't need to be descendants of Joseph, just descendants of the same person Joseph was a descendant of, which they were. In other words, descendants of a common ancestor.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 6:03 pm

Luke wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 4:07 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 2:03 pm

Brigham was related to Joseph. Heber was related Brigham.

Not as descendants though.

So it’s evident that the right to Priesthood went to numerous people.

They wouldn't need to be descendants of Joseph, just descendants of the same person Joseph was a descendant of, which they were. In other words, descendants of a common ancestor.

Bingo. Which means that there is a chosen people entitled to the Priesthood.

Luke wrote: ↑October 9th, 2023, 1:14 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 6:03 pm

Luke wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 4:07 pm

Not as descendants though.

So it’s evident that the right to Priesthood went to numerous people.

They wouldn't need to be descendants of Joseph, just descendants of the same person Joseph was a descendant of, which they were. In other words, descendants of a common ancestor.

Bingo. Which means that there is a chosen people entitled to the Priesthood.

Maybe.
But not Gentiles or Ephraimites.

Luke wrote: ↑October 9th, 2023, 1:14 am Bingo. Which means that there is a chosen people entitled to the Priesthood.

If such a thing exists, then it stands to reason that many of those people are either unwilling to get that priesthood in the first place or are completely apostate. I don't need to point out how decadent the western world has become over the past century, let alone since the 1960s... a considerable number of people involved in such things will be of these lines... much like many of the ancient people of Israel resorted to idolatry and other practices, and had to be whipped back into line.

Any such priesthood group would have to be a much smaller subset rather than just based on ancient descendants. (Of which there will be many.)

Check out what just dropped

https://x.com/lindsayonair/status/17115 ... YTpZF5N52A

Big lawsuits coming his way!

From the X post:

Allegations he would "practice" a so-called undercover tactic called The Couple's Ruse, where a woman would have to play his wife to fool sex traffickers, Ballard would frequent strip clubs in the Salt Lake Valley with the women, bringing along his adult son.

Allegations Ballard would pay for and receive lap dances, drink, and take pills all on O.U.R's dime with donor money.

Ballard exploited the name of the LDS church to convince the women this was all okay, telling them he believed he was to become a future POTUS+LDS Prophet

Allegations that OUR and it's board remained silent while knowing about the couples ruse... and fired Ballard after the investigation but worked out a joint plan to protect him.

Allegations that Ballard's friendship with @SeanReyesUT gave him cover to operate in this way, even while consumer complaints about Ballard/OUR poured into to the AG's office.

Allegations that the LDS Church excommunicated Ballard as a result of how he used the ruse

We will see what the actual court will say about these supposed allegations. The conspiracy theory becomes more real.

farmerchick wrote: ↑October 9th, 2023, 7:22 pm We will see what the actual court will say about these supposed allegations. The conspiracy theory becomes more real.

What court? What have I missed in terms of where, why, and how this would actually go to court, on what allegations?

tmac wrote: ↑October 9th, 2023, 7:28 pm

farmerchick wrote: ↑October 9th, 2023, 7:22 pm We will see what the actual court will say about these supposed allegations. The conspiracy theory becomes more real.

What court? What have I missed in terms of where, why, and how this would actually go to court, on what allegations?

See my above post about women bringing civil litigation to him. It will go before a judge where there will be exploration.

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 2:39 pm

Silver Pie wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 1:13 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑October 8th, 2023, 8:31 amit added "in accordance with God's law".

So, you and Cyclops are right if this is the case, but it wasn't the case when I went through in 1990 after they made huge changes.

When was this change made? Because it wasn't there when I was actively going to the temple.


Can anyone tell me when they added that phrase to the temple endowment?

It has been in the past several years. During Nelson’s presidency if I remember correctly. Same sex marriage was legalized in the USA in 2015, so it was after that. I believe they changed it to close the loophole. The previous wording like you said, left a loophole. There wasn’t a loophole in most of the USA because it said “legally and lawfully married” and same sex marriage was not legal. But when it became legal there was now a loophole. So they added the phrase “according to God’s law”.

The meaning of lawful in the temple has always referred to God's law per president Hinckley.

Bonhoeffer wrote: ↑October 9th, 2023, 7:30 pm

tmac wrote: ↑October 9th, 2023, 7:28 pm

farmerchick wrote: ↑October 9th, 2023, 7:22 pm We will see what the actual court will say about these supposed allegations. The conspiracy theory becomes more real.

What court? What have I missed in terms of where, why, and how this would actually go to court, on what allegations?

See my above post about women bringing civil litigation to him. It will go before a judge where there will be exploration.

Thanks. Sure enough, it looks like this might get aired-out -- unless there's just a big settlement, with a non-disclosure provision, which would be my bet. But it will be interesting.

This X post contains more detail than the last one I posted:
https://x.com/allitude/status/171153041 ... YTpZF5N52A

Here’s an additional post:
https://x.com/robertgehrke/status/17115 ... YTpZF5N52A

This link is the lawsuit & the charges they’re making:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1h59g7k3 ... 7gdxc&dl=0

Here’s some of what’s mentioned:
Ballard would get ketamine treatments & have a scribe come in w/ him while he would talk to the dead prophet Nephi & issue prophecies about Ballard's greatness & future as a U.S. Senator, President of, & ultimately the Mormon Prophet, to usher in the second coming of Jesus Christ

Tim Ballard said that if male operators don’t touch the women or CHILDREN, the traffickers would figure out that it was a sting & would create a danger for all

Breaking: Five women have sued Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad and other OUR execs accusing Ballard of sexual assault and battery and accusing others of fraud, conspiracy to commit sexual assault and battery and intentional infliction of emotional distress.

The women filed the case under pseudonyms, but each provided a statement outlining the specific details of their allegations, which include grooming behavior, sexual acts short of penetration, excessive alcohol and drug use and conversing with Nephi.

Oh geeze..there it is^^^^^another one of those people looking beyond the mark and believing they aren't under the same rules as the rest of us. I was wondering when the drug/alcohol use would be leaked.....this is just very predictable to me....and of course a dead Nephi gets drug into it with all the grandiose prophecies of the servant TB.....he's prolly got a portal In his closet too....I wonder if his sweet believing wife will change her mind and decide the line was crossed....? we will see...smh .....just so predictable and disgusting....I hope tb settles and has to give all his "earned assets" away to his ruse wives.

Bonhoeffer wrote: ↑October 9th, 2023, 5:10 pm From the X post:

Allegations he would "practice" a so-called undercover tactic called The Couple's Ruse, where a woman would have to play his wife to fool sex traffickers, Ballard would frequent strip clubs in the Salt Lake Valley with the women, bringing along his adult son.

Allegations Ballard would pay for and receive lap dances, drink, and take pills all on O.U.R's dime with donor money.

Ballard exploited the name of the LDS church to convince the women this was all okay, telling them he believed he was to become a future POTUS+LDS Prophet

Allegations that OUR and it's board remained silent while knowing about the couples ruse... and fired Ballard after the investigation but worked out a joint plan to protect him.

Allegations that Ballard's friendship with @SeanReyesUT gave him cover to operate in this way, even while consumer complaints about Ballard/OUR poured into to the AG's office.

Allegations that the LDS Church excommunicated Ballard as a result of how he used the ruse

I think Tim knew this was coming. I think these women and their attorneys know they'll need to provide evidence for this stuff or at least enough evidence to have a chance at convincing a jury. I know there are other motives for lawyers taking cases but it seems reasonable they have something of substance to rely on here if they are pressing forward. I assume will there be a discovery phase where Tim's lawyers get to see the evidence against Tim. I'd like to be a fly on the wall in that room when the lawyers see it. I think we will get to see who the credible side is unless they settle out of court. I really hope it plays out in court so truth wins and secrets of either party are exposed.