LDS Freedom Forum

Seriously, I have been pondering this for quite awhile now.

That being said, those of you that hold to section 132, I cannot probably demonstrate anything that will make sense. Those that hold to the old D&C section 101, will most likely see that as the answer to the title of this post.

However, looking at the subject from the Bible and Book of Mormon, there are some things to consider.

In Genesis we see a multitude of the use of the words marriage, wife, husband, etc. Of course there is the familiar of:

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof.
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman [heb. Isha], because she was taken out of Man [heb. Ish].
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (Genesis 2)

This was referenced by the Lord in the New Testament:

4)And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5)And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6)Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (Matthew 19)

The question is how did God join them together?

I find the following scripture to be especially important:

65)For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself.
66)And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done.
67)And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death. (Genesis 24)

The God of Isaac was with him in his actions.

You can go on and on looking for an authority figure from God to have solemnized a marriage in the Bible, BUT ... guess what? You won't find any. The closest thing are marriage SUPPERS. The same in John 2. There are marriage SUPPERS, but no ceremony, etc.

As a matter of fact, you won't find any civil authority solemnizing marriages in the Bible either.

IMO in all of this marriage is a public statement via a supper or something similar declaring to the world there was a recognized joining. No priestcraft was practiced in assuming authority to join together a man and his wife.

In the Book of Mormon you will only find the word "Marriage" mentioned ONCE:

11)And they were married, and given in marriage, and were blessed according to the multitude of the promises which the Lord had made unto them. (4 Nephi)

More common are accounts like:

1)AND now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise. (1 Nephi 7)

and

7)And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also, my brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also Zoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife. (1 Nephi 16)

and

10)And now, therefore, let my father send for Akish, the son of Kimnor; and behold, I am fair, and I will dance before him, and I will please him, that he will desire me to wife; wherefore if he shall desire of thee that ye shall give unto him me to wife, then shall ye say: I will give her if ye will bring unto me the head of my father, the king. (Ether 8)

Again, there are many other references to wife and husband in the Book of Mormon. But you cannot find a solemnization of a marriage by a third party be it a canopy or other kind of ceremony.

IMO it wasn't until the great and abominable church of the devil (starting with the Jews and to the current state of things worldwide and among all churches, etc.) got involved in enforced priestcraft that the sacred institution of marriage became filthy. See:

12)But Alma said unto him: Behold, this is the first time that priestcraft has been introduced among this people. And behold, thou art not only guilty of priestcraft, but hast endeavored to enforce it by the sword; and were priestcraft to be enforced among this people it would prove their entire destruction.
...
16)Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines; and this they did for the sake of riches and honor. (Alma 1)

Look at the Book of Moroni. All those chapters refer to essentials in the Lord's church, BUT guess what? No mention of solemnizing marriage. How important is marriage? Wouldn't there be some sort of formal wording from Christ if it was intended to be enforced by priests, rabbi, justices of the peace, etc., etc.

I see the bastardization of marriage by the current churches and governments to take by force money, freedom, authority, etc. This of course will include ALL of Christianity.

The Lord protected women as best He could by requiring a bill of divorcement.

Does anyone know how the Native Americans consider marriage?

Your thoughts?

ALSO: See my addendum later in this post.

CaptainM wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:19 pm Seriously, I have been pondering this for quite awhile now.

That being said, those of you that hold to section 132, I cannot probably demonstrate anything that will make sense. Those that hold to the old D&C section 101, will most likely see that as the answer to the title of this post.

However, looking at the subject from the Bible and Book of Mormon, there are some things to consider.

In Genesis we see a multitude of the use of the words marriage, wife, husband, etc. Of course there is the familiar of:

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof.
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman [heb. Isha], because she was taken out of Man [heb. Ish].
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (Genesis 2)

This was referenced by the Lord in the New Testament:

4)And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5)And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6)Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (Matthew 19)

The question is how did God join them together?

I find the following scripture to be especially important:

65)For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself.
66)And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done.
67)And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death. (Genesis 24)

The God of Isaac was with him in his actions.

You can go on and on looking for an authority figure from God to have solemnized a marriage in the Bible, BUT ... guess what? You won't find any. The closest thing are marriage SUPPERS. The same in John 2. There are marriage SUPPERS, but no ceremony, etc.

As a matter of fact, you won't find any civil authority solemnizing marriages in the Bible either.

IMO in all of this marriage is a public statement via a supper or something similar declaring to the world there was a recognized joining. No priestcraft was practiced in assuming authority to join together a man and his wife.

In the Book of Mormon you will only find the word "Marriage" mentioned ONCE:

11)And they were married, and given in marriage, and were blessed according to the multitude of the promises which the Lord had made unto them. (4 Nephi)

More common are accounts like:

1)AND now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise. (1 Nephi 7)

and

7)And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also, my brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also Zoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife. (1 Nephi 16)

and

10)And now, therefore, let my father send for Akish, the son of Kimnor; and behold, I am fair, and I will dance before him, and I will please him, that he will desire me to wife; wherefore if he shall desire of thee that ye shall give unto him me to wife, then shall ye say: I will give her if ye will bring unto me the head of my father, the king. (Ether 8)

Again, there are many other references to wife and husband in the Book of Mormon. But you cannot find a solemnization of a marriage by a third party be it a canopy or other kind of ceremony.

IMO it wasn't until the great and abominable church of the devil (starting with the Jews and to the current state of things worldwide and among all churches, etc.) got involved in enforced priestcraft that the sacred institution of marriage became filthy. See:

12)But Alma said unto him: Behold, this is the first time that priestcraft has been introduced among this people. And behold, thou art not only guilty of priestcraft, but hast endeavored to enforce it by the sword; and were priestcraft to be enforced among this people it would prove their entire destruction.
...
16)Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines; and this they did for the sake of riches and honor. (Alma 1)

Look at the Book of Moroni. All those chapters refer to essentials in the Lord's church, BUT guess what? No mention of solemnizing marriage. How important is marriage? Wouldn't there be some sort of formal wording from Christ if it was intended to be enforced by priests, rabbi, justices of the peace, etc., etc.

I see the bastardization of marriage by the current churches and governments to take by force money, freedom, authority, etc. This of course will include ALL of Christianity.

The Lord protected women as best He could by requiring a bill of divorcement.

Does anyone know how the Native Americans consider marriage?

Your thoughts?

My thoughts have tended this same direction lately.

If things really fall apart, will we keep going people from commiting to each other without a priest or judge to agree?

No, the act of consummation is the marriage. It is my understanding that a "marriage" without consummation is null and void. Annulled is the word that would be used, I believe.

But a supper in celebration does seem to be a good tradition. To celebrate with loved one and let the town know they are "off the market" so to speak. Really with or without formal civil/religious marriage, if a couple is not committed, no paper will force them to be so. Either they are, or they aren't. Their integrity and loyalty is known to God.

CaptainM wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:19 pm Look at the Book of Moroni. All those chapters refer to essentials in the Lord's church, BUT guess what? No mention of solemnizing marriage. How important is marriage? Wouldn't there be some sort of formal wording from Christ if it was intended to be enforced by priests, rabbi, justices of the peace, etc., etc.

That's a really good point. It's the most important ordinance of Mormonism, the thing that gets you to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, yet it's not important enough to have a set of words.

You mentioned the 4th Nephi line, "they were married, and given in marriage", and I was struck at the similarity with Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

It's no coincidence that the language is an exact match. It seems to me that marriage is only of earth and not of heaven.

If people couch their entire belief system and horizon of truth in the BoM, then I believe they'll miss out on a lot.

John 4
16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

Adultery is a man sleeping with another man’s wife…

Jesus called the Samaritans lover a husband, and said she has had 5 husbands.

These facts we know

More facts from the Lord…

Matthew 19
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

We need to be able to receive his “sayings”

Mawage- is wot bwings us togever today
Tru wuv

I know, just can't help myself

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:05 pm

CaptainM wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:19 pm Look at the Book of Moroni. All those chapters refer to essentials in the Lord's church, BUT guess what? No mention of solemnizing marriage. How important is marriage? Wouldn't there be some sort of formal wording from Christ if it was intended to be enforced by priests, rabbi, justices of the peace, etc., etc.

That's a really good point. It's the most important ordinance of Mormonism, the thing that gets you to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, yet it's not important enough to have a set of words.

You mentioned the 4th Nephi line, "they were married, and given in marriage", and I was struck at the similarity with Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

It's no coincidence that the language is an exact match. It seems to me that marriage is only of earth and not of heaven.

my weak opinion is that if one wants to follow in the footsteps of Jehovah, then marriage is necessary and likely even, polygamy. When an atom (adam) has 8 electrons (Ev) it is considered "noble" and does not ordinarily mix with other elements (except now with high powered forced methods).

-----------------------

cut and paste:

"Every atom can lose, gain or share electrons to have eight electrons in its outer shell.

However, in the case of noble gases, they already possess this arrangement. Their outer shells are completely filled so they do not bond to other atoms and remain noble or inert under most conditions."

"• Completely filled outermost shells which give them little or no tendency to participate in chemical reactions."
------------------------
So, having eight eves makes the structure nearly impervious to outside influences and it becomes a separate world unto itself. In essence, the octave balances the center adam completely. This arrangement, then, according to science , is understood as Noble.

The question is if one does want to follow in Jehovah's footsteps. Reading the OT is quite a colorful adventure.

Question: What is it that sanctions a marriage?...is it a registry office?...is it a temple sealing?...is it both,? or is it something else?...

Traditionally in my own ancestral heritage account, my ancestors did not have a single formal process of marriage. It was rather a sequence of events that included our senior tribal/families elders participating in the proposal and sanctioning the joining of a man and woman together. It was a family and community affair. However, there also remained room for individuals to establish their own connections with a future prospective spouse.

https://teara.govt.nz/en/marriage-and-partnering/page-1

...whatever the process involved in recognising and formalising a marriage ceremony, if God has not sanctioned the joining together of man and wife, the marriage is null and void in the resurrection. But until that time, we have an opportunity to have our marriage covenant sanctioned by God (Jehovah).

In order to understand the marriage "covenant" we must first understand the context of Christ's own words upon the subject.

When He was pressed upon by the Sadducees who did not believe in the resurrection of the spirit, who sought to tempt Christ. He knowing their thoughts and because of their lack of understanding of Gods (Jehovah's) words, responded according to their own knowledge or lack thereof...regarding the woman who married 7 brothers...The question was asked which of the 7 brothers shall she be the wife of in the resurrection...Remember, the Sadducees were not enquiring of the Christ with an open mind or a willingness to hear truth. So Christ referred them to something they did know...the first words on the subject of marriage as ordained and sanctioned by God (Jehovah) in Genesis 2. Here we find reference to the man leaving his father and mother, being commanded of God (Jehovah) to cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh.

How does one cleave to his wife and become one flesh? This is a covenant promise...It is given by God and received by man.

The context of a covenant marriage is defined in Genesis 1...this is where the marriage was formalised personally, by none other than God (Jehovah) Himself...

27 So God created man in his own aimage, in the image of God created he him; male and bfemale created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be afruitful, and bmultiply, and creplenish the dearth, and subdue it: and have edominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for ameat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for ameat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very agood. And the evening and the morning were the bsixth day.

Only God (Jehovah) sanctions marriage between a man and woman...if a marriage has not been sanctioned by God (Jehovah)...in other words, no matter how many times one marries...if it is not sanctioned by God (Jehovah)...it is not recognised in the resurrection...thus one becomes an angel of God (Jehovah).

The key takeaway here, is to promote the sanctity of marriage as God has defined it...not as man has defined it.

Marriage covenant includes Gods promise that man shall have dominion over all things upon the earth, therefore the marriage covenant includes our daily activities.

The relationship of man and woman to each other because of sin, will ebb and flow according to the heed and diligence the man and woman give to God.

Even a marriage sanctioned by God may find itself in despair if the covenant of marriage is not manifested by the man and woman. It is entirely possible that a man and woman can walk away from this covenant. It is the duty and blessed hope of every man and woman joined together by God to continue with faith and a desire to serve God and their families.

It is evident the world places little respect upon the sanctity of marriage and the family.

It is no coincidence that the very first act of Gods creation of man and woman was to sanctify their relationship...thereby causing a proliferation of Gods spirit throughout the earth.

...marriages only fail where God is not present. Only God sanctifies marriage...therefore as husband and wife who have not yet been sanctified, they must continue in faith until God (Jehovah) Himself confirms to you (and me) this joining together of man and woman. This is done by the Holy Spirit of promise. It is not dependent upon a place of brick and mortar.

As an example, my own marriage was sanctioned by God prior to the marriage event and temple sealing....this is how I know that it is God who seals marriage personally...this is also the reason I know that my own marriage was given to me from before the foundation of the earth...God sanctified this marriage before I was ever born...

What manner of man has power to seal upon the earth?...unless a man knows Gods will upon a subject...the power of that man will fail...

viewtopic.php?p=1424145#p1424145

Peace

1)AND now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise. (1 Nephi 7)

Later on they were sealed in a Nephite temple using Mormon temple rites. The same temple rites that were used to marry Adam and Eve. The Book of Mormon has the temple ceremony all throughout it's text. Rolls eyes...

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:05 pm

CaptainM wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:19 pm Look at the Book of Moroni. All those chapters refer to essentials in the Lord's church, BUT guess what? No mention of solemnizing marriage. How important is marriage? Wouldn't there be some sort of formal wording from Christ if it was intended to be enforced by priests, rabbi, justices of the peace, etc., etc.

That's a really good point. It's the most important ordinance of Mormonism, the thing that gets you to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, yet it's not important enough to have a set of words.

You mentioned the 4th Nephi line, "they were married, and given in marriage", and I was struck at the similarity with Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

It's no coincidence that the language is an exact match. It seems to me that marriage is only of earth and not of heaven.

What Resurrection? The New Testament claims there are multiple, and they are not created equally.

What's their marriage before the fall? Christ came to bring Adam and Eve back to where they fell.

If you are one flesh and resurrected on the 1st....are you no longer one flesh when resurrected?
"Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”

I'm the beginning, in the Garden: Marriage

Israel is likened to an unfaithful wife and a harlot.

Israel's departure from YHWH is referred to as a divorce.

In the end, Zion and Marriage

I don’t believe a marriage of the state or any legally recognized marriage is necessarily recognized by God. So, what does a marriage in God’s eyes look like today? Having a marriage feast with friends and family? And what is meant by consummation? Sex? What if one doesn’t want a legal marriage but is still fully committed? Does that count?

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:41 pm

CaptainM wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:19 pm Seriously, I have been pondering this for quite awhile now.

That being said, those of you that hold to section 132, I cannot probably demonstrate anything that will make sense. Those that hold to the old D&C section 101, will most likely see that as the answer to the title of this post.

However, looking at the subject from the Bible and Book of Mormon, there are some things to consider.

In Genesis we see a multitude of the use of the words marriage, wife, husband, etc. Of course there is the familiar of:

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof.
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman [heb. Isha], because she was taken out of Man [heb. Ish].
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (Genesis 2)

This was referenced by the Lord in the New Testament:

4)And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5)And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6)Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (Matthew 19)

The question is how did God join them together?

I find the following scripture to be especially important:

65)For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself.
66)And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done.
67)And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death. (Genesis 24)

The God of Isaac was with him in his actions.

You can go on and on looking for an authority figure from God to have solemnized a marriage in the Bible, BUT ... guess what? You won't find any. The closest thing are marriage SUPPERS. The same in John 2. There are marriage SUPPERS, but no ceremony, etc.

As a matter of fact, you won't find any civil authority solemnizing marriages in the Bible either.

IMO in all of this marriage is a public statement via a supper or something similar declaring to the world there was a recognized joining. No priestcraft was practiced in assuming authority to join together a man and his wife.

In the Book of Mormon you will only find the word "Marriage" mentioned ONCE:

11)And they were married, and given in marriage, and were blessed according to the multitude of the promises which the Lord had made unto them. (4 Nephi)

More common are accounts like:

1)AND now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise. (1 Nephi 7)

and

7)And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also, my brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also Zoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife. (1 Nephi 16)

and

10)And now, therefore, let my father send for Akish, the son of Kimnor; and behold, I am fair, and I will dance before him, and I will please him, that he will desire me to wife; wherefore if he shall desire of thee that ye shall give unto him me to wife, then shall ye say: I will give her if ye will bring unto me the head of my father, the king. (Ether 8)

Again, there are many other references to wife and husband in the Book of Mormon. But you cannot find a solemnization of a marriage by a third party be it a canopy or other kind of ceremony.

IMO it wasn't until the great and abominable church of the devil (starting with the Jews and to the current state of things worldwide and among all churches, etc.) got involved in enforced priestcraft that the sacred institution of marriage became filthy. See:

12)But Alma said unto him: Behold, this is the first time that priestcraft has been introduced among this people. And behold, thou art not only guilty of priestcraft, but hast endeavored to enforce it by the sword; and were priestcraft to be enforced among this people it would prove their entire destruction.
...
16)Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines; and this they did for the sake of riches and honor. (Alma 1)

Look at the Book of Moroni. All those chapters refer to essentials in the Lord's church, BUT guess what? No mention of solemnizing marriage. How important is marriage? Wouldn't there be some sort of formal wording from Christ if it was intended to be enforced by priests, rabbi, justices of the peace, etc., etc.

I see the bastardization of marriage by the current churches and governments to take by force money, freedom, authority, etc. This of course will include ALL of Christianity.

The Lord protected women as best He could by requiring a bill of divorcement.

Does anyone know how the Native Americans consider marriage?

Your thoughts?

My thoughts have tended this same direction lately.

If things really fall apart, will we keep going people from commiting to each other without a priest or judge to agree?

No, the act of consummation is the marriage. It is my understanding that a "marriage" without consummation is null and void. Annulled is the word that would be used, I believe.

But a supper in celebration does seem to be a good tradition. To celebrate with loved one and let the town know they are "off the market" so to speak. Really with or without formal civil/religious marriage, if a couple is not committed, no paper will force them to be so. Either they are, or they aren't. Their integrity and loyalty is known to God.

Definitely - I've been pondering this for some time. A marriage is two people that are committed to one another, and a formal ceremony is extraneous to that.

Think about Kurt Russel and Goldie Hawn. They have to be the most longstanding relationship in Hollywood, and they have never been married. Their relationship easily seems better than 99% of the marriages in the world. Then there's someone like Tom Cruise, or anyone else in Hollywood, who has been married 3 times to three different women.

Most religious people would say Kurt Russel did it wrong, and Tom Cruise did it "God's way." But who is more in line with the spirit of the law? I think the answer is obvious.

although Dances with Wolves is fiction, I DO like how the marriage between John Dunbar and Stands With A Fist was represented - they went before the shaman, and he pronounced them married, and then everyone watched as they went into their tent to make it real. The whole tribe acknowledged that it was a good marriage.

I was reading something about how in the 1800's South, marriages were performed only when the preacher could "get around to it". I think I have some ancestors that were "living together" (in marriage) for about 9 months before the preacher came around and pronounced them officially married.

Alabama has come full circle, and now you don't need clergy to "marry" you - you just fill out a notarized form and have it witnessed. The end.

Interesting

mudflap wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 12:12 pm although Dances with Wolves is fiction, I DO like how the marriage between John Dunbar and Stands With A Fist was represented - they went before the shaman, and he pronounced them married, and then everyone watched as they went into their tent to make it real. The whole tribe acknowledged that it was a good marriage.

I was reading something about how in the 1800's South, marriages were performed only when the preacher could "get around to it". I think I have some ancestors that were "living together" (in marriage) for about 9 months before the preacher came around and pronounced them officially married.

Alabama has come full circle, and now you don't need clergy to "marry" you - you just fill out a notarized form and have it witnessed. The end.

Almost like what Jesus told the Samaritan woman who said she had no husband “For thou hast had five husbands” he didn’t judge her, he just told her the truth.

Imagine if I told a 23 year old girl who has a body count of 30 men. “You have had 30 husbands”

Everyone would say that I have judged her…..

My point is, we really don’t need a preacher lol

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 11:13 pm

mudflap wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 12:12 pm although Dances with Wolves is fiction, I DO like how the marriage between John Dunbar and Stands With A Fist was represented - they went before the shaman, and he pronounced them married, and then everyone watched as they went into their tent to make it real. The whole tribe acknowledged that it was a good marriage.

I was reading something about how in the 1800's South, marriages were performed only when the preacher could "get around to it". I think I have some ancestors that were "living together" (in marriage) for about 9 months before the preacher came around and pronounced them officially married.

Alabama has come full circle, and now you don't need clergy to "marry" you - you just fill out a notarized form and have it witnessed. The end.

Almost like what Jesus told the Samaritan woman who said she had no husband “For thou hast had five husbands” he didn’t judge her, he just told her the truth.

Imagine if I told a 23 year old girl who has a body count of 30 men. “You have had 30 husbands”

Everyone would say that I have judged her…..

My point is, we really don’t need a preacher lol

So, sex=the passing into marriage? Is that all? I’m genuinely curious…

Jonesy wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 2:12 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 11:13 pm

mudflap wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 12:12 pm although Dances with Wolves is fiction, I DO like how the marriage between John Dunbar and Stands With A Fist was represented - they went before the shaman, and he pronounced them married, and then everyone watched as they went into their tent to make it real. The whole tribe acknowledged that it was a good marriage.

I was reading something about how in the 1800's South, marriages were performed only when the preacher could "get around to it". I think I have some ancestors that were "living together" (in marriage) for about 9 months before the preacher came around and pronounced them officially married.

Alabama has come full circle, and now you don't need clergy to "marry" you - you just fill out a notarized form and have it witnessed. The end.

Almost like what Jesus told the Samaritan woman who said she had no husband “For thou hast had five husbands” he didn’t judge her, he just told her the truth.

Imagine if I told a 23 year old girl who has a body count of 30 men. “You have had 30 husbands”

Everyone would say that I have judged her…..

My point is, we really don’t need a preacher lol

So, sex=the passing into marriage? Is that all? I’m genuinely curious…

It has to be more than sex. I think intent matters. I don't think the woman at the well simply had sex with those men but she lived with them too.

If someone had a one night stand, I think that is fornication not marriage. No need for a bill of divorcement in the morning. The bill of divorcement is only if there was material support given. And perhaps it needs to be public, with witnesses. Which is why one would need to give a bill of divorcement to free the spouse to marry again, because people knew that they were married.

Jonesy wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 2:12 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 11:13 pm

mudflap wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 12:12 pm although Dances with Wolves is fiction, I DO like how the marriage between John Dunbar and Stands With A Fist was represented - they went before the shaman, and he pronounced them married, and then everyone watched as they went into their tent to make it real. The whole tribe acknowledged that it was a good marriage.

I was reading something about how in the 1800's South, marriages were performed only when the preacher could "get around to it". I think I have some ancestors that were "living together" (in marriage) for about 9 months before the preacher came around and pronounced them officially married.

Alabama has come full circle, and now you don't need clergy to "marry" you - you just fill out a notarized form and have it witnessed. The end.

Almost like what Jesus told the Samaritan woman who said she had no husband “For thou hast had five husbands” he didn’t judge her, he just told her the truth.

Imagine if I told a 23 year old girl who has a body count of 30 men. “You have had 30 husbands”

Everyone would say that I have judged her…..

My point is, we really don’t need a preacher lol

So, sex=the passing into marriage? Is that all? I’m genuinely curious…

Yes, except it be for fornication like Ransomme said.

Matthew 19
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

What do you think?

ADDEDUM:

1)Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2)Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3)Forbidding to marry.... (1 Timothy 4)

Now the first inclination I used to have was no one is forbidding to marry except catholic popes. However if we approach this scripture from the point of view I expressed earlier in this post:

"IMO it wasn't until the great and abominable church of the devil (starting with the Jews and to the current state of things worldwide and among ALL churches, etc.) got involved in enforced priestcraft that the sacred institution of marriage became filthy."

and

I see the bastardization of marriage by the current churches and governments to take by force money, freedom, authority, etc. This of course will include ALL of Christianity.

This is my new understanding of how the "forbidding" takes place. People are forbidden to marry unless it is done how the churches in cooperation with governments say it should be done. If people do not do it their way, then they are considered illegitimate and sinful.

They then used shame, guilt, and fear to bring people into captivity in one way or another. Marriage is intended by God to be a wonderful joining of one man with one woman to find joy and salvation together.

ransomme wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 3:34 am

Jonesy wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 2:12 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 11:13 pm

Almost like what Jesus told the Samaritan woman who said she had no husband “For thou hast had five husbands” he didn’t judge her, he just told her the truth.

Imagine if I told a 23 year old girl who has a body count of 30 men. “You have had 30 husbands”

Everyone would say that I have judged her…..

My point is, we really don’t need a preacher lol

So, sex=the passing into marriage? Is that all? I’m genuinely curious…

It has to be more than sex. I think intent matters. I don't think the woman at the well simply had sex with those men but she lived with them too.

If someone had a one night stand, I think that is fornication not marriage. No need for a bill of divorcement in the morning. The bill of divorcement is only if there was material support given. And perhaps it needs to be public, with witnesses. Which is why one would need to give a bill of divorcement to free the spouse to marry again, because people knew that they were married.

I think anything more than fornication is a form of marriage, biblically.

Where would the Lord draw the line?

To not know that a man who lives with a woman and then puts her away (breaks up with her) is adultery, is a sin in ignorance.

Jeremiah 23
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

If we believe that the lord died for our sins then everything is biblical.

CaptainM wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 10:18 am ADDEDUM:

1)Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2)Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3)Forbidding to marry.... (1 Timothy 4)

Now the first inclination I used to have was no one is forbidding to marry except catholic popes. However if we approach this scripture from the point of view I expressed earlier in this post:

"IMO it wasn't until the great and abominable church of the devil (starting with the Jews and to the current state of things worldwide and among ALL churches, etc.) got involved in enforced priestcraft that the sacred institution of marriage became filthy."

and

I see the bastardization of marriage by the current churches and governments to take by force money, freedom, authority, etc. This of course will include ALL of Christianity.

This is my new understanding of how the "forbidding" takes place. People are forbidden to marry unless it is done how the churches in cooperation with governments say it should be done. If people do not do it their way, then they are considered illegitimate and sinful.

They then used shame, guilt, and fear to bring people into captivity in one way or another. Marriage is intended by God to be a wonderful joining of one man with one woman to find joy and salvation together.

Let’s take this one step further, forbidding a temple marriage because of money?

Are the children not free?

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 9:52 am

Jonesy wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 2:12 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 11:13 pm

Almost like what Jesus told the Samaritan woman who said she had no husband “For thou hast had five husbands” he didn’t judge her, he just told her the truth.

Imagine if I told a 23 year old girl who has a body count of 30 men. “You have had 30 husbands”

Everyone would say that I have judged her…..

My point is, we really don’t need a preacher lol

So, sex=the passing into marriage? Is that all? I’m genuinely curious…

Yes, except it be for fornication like Ransomme said.

Matthew 19
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

What do you think?

Yeah, I think I agree. I’m not sure how I would feel having sex with a woman in order to pass into marriage or a committed relationship, though. My family (parents, siblings) sure wouldn’t accept that.

I do love the story discussed here about the woman and the well. It’s almost comical to me.

Woman: I’ve never had a husband!
Jesus: *eyebrow raise* Girlfren, you’ve had 5
Woman:

Jonesy wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 4:23 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 9:52 am

Jonesy wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 2:12 am

So, sex=the passing into marriage? Is that all? I’m genuinely curious…

Yes, except it be for fornication like Ransomme said.

Matthew 19
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

What do you think?

Yeah, I think I agree. I’m not sure how I would feel having sex with a woman in order to pass into marriage or a committed relationship, though. My family (parents, siblings) sure wouldn’t accept that.

I do love the story discussed here about the woman and the well. It’s almost comical to me.

Woman: I’ve never had a husband!
Jesus: *eyebrow raise* Girlfren, you’ve had 5
Woman:

We don’t have to have sex to become married lol

“In the context of marriage, consummation means the actualization of marriage. It is the first act of sexual intercourse after marriage between a husband and wife. Consummation is particularly relevant under canon law, where failure to consummate a marriage is a ground for divorce or an annulment.”

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 4:52 pm

Jonesy wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 4:23 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 9:52 am

Yes, except it be for fornication like Ransomme said.

Matthew 19
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

What do you think?

Yeah, I think I agree. I’m not sure how I would feel having sex with a woman in order to pass into marriage or a committed relationship, though. My family (parents, siblings) sure wouldn’t accept that.

I do love the story discussed here about the woman and the well. It’s almost comical to me.

Woman: I’ve never had a husband!
Jesus: *eyebrow raise* Girlfren, you’ve had 5
Woman:

We don’t have to have sex to become married lol

“In the context of marriage, consummation means the actualization of marriage. It is the first act of sexual intercourse after marriage between a husband and wife. Consummation is particularly relevant under canon law, where failure to consummate a marriage is a ground for divorce or an annulment.”

To me, that quote says you must have sex to consummate the marriage. Maybe I’m reading it wrong…

Okay then, what exactly does consummation entail for the actuation of marriage? Maybe that’s a better question. Let’s say sex is not the issue. What is it that actualizes the marriage? It’s hard to find an explicit definition.