LDS Freedom Forum

Jonesy wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 5:00 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 4:52 pm

Jonesy wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 4:23 pm

Yeah, I think I agree. I’m not sure how I would feel having sex with a woman in order to pass into marriage or a committed relationship, though. My family (parents, siblings) sure wouldn’t accept that.

I do love the story discussed here about the woman and the well. It’s almost comical to me.

Woman: I’ve never had a husband!
Jesus: *eyebrow raise* Girlfren, you’ve had 5
Woman:

We don’t have to have sex to become married lol

“In the context of marriage, consummation means the actualization of marriage. It is the first act of sexual intercourse after marriage between a husband and wife. Consummation is particularly relevant under canon law, where failure to consummate a marriage is a ground for divorce or an annulment.”

To me, that quote says you must have sex to consummate the marriage. Maybe I’m reading it wrong…

Okay then, what exactly does consummation entail for the actuation of marriage? Maybe that’s a better question. Let’s say sex is not the issue. What is it that actualizes the marriage? It’s hard to find an explicit definition.

Fred wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2023, 11:33 pm It's a farce to believe that a government has the authority to perform a marriage. Anything that the government controls or oversees, is subject to further evil. Such as legalizing marriage counselors. Licensing is virtually always evil. But whether a marriage counselor is licensed or not has no bearing on the quality of the counsel. Is a licensed comedian funnier than one which is not? When government creates a contract, it opens the gate for a contract enforcer, negotiator, or advisor. Just what does a marriage license permit a couple to do?

In this video, Candace Owens questions sex workers doubling as counselors. The government should never have been involved in the first place.

RosyPosy wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2023, 11:37 pm

Fred wrote: ↑October 3rd, 2023, 11:33 pm It's a farce to believe that a government has the authority to perform a marriage. Anything that the government controls or oversees, is subject to further evil. Such as legalizing marriage counselors. Licensing is virtually always evil. But whether a marriage counselor is licensed or not has no bearing on the quality of the counsel. Is a licensed comedian funnier than one which is not? When government creates a contract, it opens the gate for a contract enforcer, negotiator, or advisor. Just what does a marriage license permit a couple to do?

In this video, Candace Owens questions sex workers doubling as counselors. The government should never have been involved in the first place.

Fred, I don't recommend watching this type of content consistently. This Whatever podcast and Fresh and Fit bring the worst type of people you could encounter.

But I do agree with you that government involved marriage is in general not a good thing.

Theveilofforgetting wrote: ↑October 4th, 2023, 10:19 pm Our bishop recommended we marry in his office, essentially to save money (for our future children). We had a lot of pressure to have a public wedding, it wasn't for us. If I ever married again I'd avoid any public declarations.
As for marriage itself, I wonder about that a lot. Commitment without the government would be nice.

CaptainM wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 7:07 am Here is some information on "Common :aw Marriage"

https://mountzerin.org/marriage-request-form/

Your thoughts?

Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 1:55 pm

CaptainM wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 7:07 am Here is some information on "Common :aw Marriage"

https://mountzerin.org/marriage-request-form/

Your thoughts?

Don't have permission to view it (not a member).

Is that the same ministry that was offering religious exemptions during the plandemic?

OPMissionary wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 9:06 am

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:41 pm

CaptainM wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:19 pm Seriously, I have been pondering this for quite awhile now.

That being said, those of you that hold to section 132, I cannot probably demonstrate anything that will make sense. Those that hold to the old D&C section 101, will most likely see that as the answer to the title of this post.

However, looking at the subject from the Bible and Book of Mormon, there are some things to consider.

In Genesis we see a multitude of the use of the words marriage, wife, husband, etc. Of course there is the familiar of:

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof.
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman [heb. Isha], because she was taken out of Man [heb. Ish].
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (Genesis 2)

This was referenced by the Lord in the New Testament:

4)And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5)And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6)Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (Matthew 19)

The question is how did God join them together?

I find the following scripture to be especially important:

65)For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself.
66)And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done.
67)And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death. (Genesis 24)

The God of Isaac was with him in his actions.

You can go on and on looking for an authority figure from God to have solemnized a marriage in the Bible, BUT ... guess what? You won't find any. The closest thing are marriage SUPPERS. The same in John 2. There are marriage SUPPERS, but no ceremony, etc.

As a matter of fact, you won't find any civil authority solemnizing marriages in the Bible either.

IMO in all of this marriage is a public statement via a supper or something similar declaring to the world there was a recognized joining. No priestcraft was practiced in assuming authority to join together a man and his wife.

In the Book of Mormon you will only find the word "Marriage" mentioned ONCE:

11)And they were married, and given in marriage, and were blessed according to the multitude of the promises which the Lord had made unto them. (4 Nephi)

More common are accounts like:

1)AND now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise. (1 Nephi 7)

and

7)And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also, my brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also Zoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife. (1 Nephi 16)

and

10)And now, therefore, let my father send for Akish, the son of Kimnor; and behold, I am fair, and I will dance before him, and I will please him, that he will desire me to wife; wherefore if he shall desire of thee that ye shall give unto him me to wife, then shall ye say: I will give her if ye will bring unto me the head of my father, the king. (Ether 8)

Again, there are many other references to wife and husband in the Book of Mormon. But you cannot find a solemnization of a marriage by a third party be it a canopy or other kind of ceremony.

IMO it wasn't until the great and abominable church of the devil (starting with the Jews and to the current state of things worldwide and among all churches, etc.) got involved in enforced priestcraft that the sacred institution of marriage became filthy. See:

12)But Alma said unto him: Behold, this is the first time that priestcraft has been introduced among this people. And behold, thou art not only guilty of priestcraft, but hast endeavored to enforce it by the sword; and were priestcraft to be enforced among this people it would prove their entire destruction.
...
16)Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines; and this they did for the sake of riches and honor. (Alma 1)

Look at the Book of Moroni. All those chapters refer to essentials in the Lord's church, BUT guess what? No mention of solemnizing marriage. How important is marriage? Wouldn't there be some sort of formal wording from Christ if it was intended to be enforced by priests, rabbi, justices of the peace, etc., etc.

I see the bastardization of marriage by the current churches and governments to take by force money, freedom, authority, etc. This of course will include ALL of Christianity.

The Lord protected women as best He could by requiring a bill of divorcement.

Does anyone know how the Native Americans consider marriage?

Your thoughts?

My thoughts have tended this same direction lately.

If things really fall apart, will we keep going people from commiting to each other without a priest or judge to agree?

No, the act of consummation is the marriage. It is my understanding that a "marriage" without consummation is null and void. Annulled is the word that would be used, I believe.

But a supper in celebration does seem to be a good tradition. To celebrate with loved one and let the town know they are "off the market" so to speak. Really with or without formal civil/religious marriage, if a couple is not committed, no paper will force them to be so. Either they are, or they aren't. Their integrity and loyalty is known to God.

Definitely - I've been pondering this for some time. A marriage is two people that are committed to one another, and a formal ceremony is extraneous to that.

Think about Kurt Russel and Goldie Hawn. They have to be the most longstanding relationship in Hollywood, and they have never been married. Their relationship easily seems better than 99% of the marriages in the world. Then there's someone like Tom Cruise, or anyone else in Hollywood, who has been married 3 times to three different women.

Most religious people would say Kurt Russel did it wrong, and Tom Cruise did it "God's way." But who is more in line with the spirit of the law? I think the answer is obvious.

TheDuke wrote: ↑October 5th, 2023, 6:27 pm BTW the question needs some framework to be more specific.

1. What is marriage in the scriptures - formal, public commitment between husband and wife.
2. .... anciently - same as (1) but add some money changing hands from brides family, promise of inheritance for the wife's male children.
3. ... today - good question, seems larsenb hit on it for much of the globe today. But his example only works if Goldie and Kurt stay together, if something happens, then it is the state of Ca that makes the decisions on "what the marriage is".
4. .... in LDS -- it can be the above or can be an ordinance to put a couple on the path to become eternal partners that eventually may bring new eternal, celestial offspring into the universe and provide immortal bodies and hope to evolving spirits and intelligences "as they flow unto them without compulsory means".

It is the later (4) that is the ultimate. Everything else is like organic matter here, grows from a seed, lives a while, flowers, dies and rots, eventually to be forgotten. Which is the course of nature outside of the celestial realm anyway.

NeveR wrote: ↑October 6th, 2023, 8:46 am
Does the LDS scripture teach that even unhappy marriages will be eternal?

NeveR wrote: ↑October 6th, 2023, 8:46 am So what Swedenborg says is if you have a good, spiritually attuned marriage on earth you will remain married in heaven, but if you have a bad, unhappy spiritually distant marriage on earth you will separate from your spouse after death and find the one you are more suited to.

How does this fit with Mormon ideas of celestial marriage for eternity?

Does the LDS scripture teach that even unhappy marriages will be eternal?

OPMissionary wrote:
Think about Kurt Russel and Goldie Hawn. They have to be the most longstanding relationship in Hollywood, and they have never been married. Their relationship easily seems better than 99% of the marriages in the world. Then there's someone like Tom Cruise, or anyone else in Hollywood, who has been married 3 times to three different women.

Most religious people would say Kurt Russel did it wrong, and Tom Cruise did it "God's way." But who is more in line with the spirit of the law? I think the answer is obvious.