LDS Freedom Forum

Moses 1:33
And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

In the temple we also hear Lucifer say he's "only doing what has been done on other worlds."

Is this doctrine only found in the restoration? If so, and knowing the Great and Abominable Church had power to remove plain and precious things from the old and new testament, why would they only be found in restoration scriptures?

If such doctrine was removed by evil men, why? What is it about such doctrine, what does it stir in the soul of man that "they" would want it removed?

I've made a few assumptions here in my question. Hopefully I'm not crazy. What are your thoughts?

It's always wise to test new doctrine against known doctrine. So, what does the Bible say?

I found Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds".

And Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Based on the last one I would say that is just a reference to the spirit world and the physical world.

So no, this is not a Biblical doctrine.

Does anyone else have any other Bible passages?

My concern here would not be that the Great and Abominable Church removed something from the Bible, but that Joseph Smith added to the Bible. Just like almost everything else in Nauvoo, the Lord uses Joseph to test us with false doctrines to see if we will believe the original word of God. Joseph never moved to include the PoGP in our canon and the Lord definitely provided no witnesses for it.

The theological problem here is whether the atonement would thus apply to other worlds or the entire universe.

Niemand wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:45 pm The theological problem here is whether the atonement would thus apply to other worlds or the entire universe.

The concept more or less invalids the idea that God so loved this world that he sent his only begotten son. Why would God come to this world to offer the atonement and exclude all others? Why are we completely okay with such favoritism? Is it Rameumptum Elitism?

The Devil's doctrine of evolution and the big bang is that we are just one of a countless number. Isn't this the same doctrine of the PoGP?

The Bible, on the other hand, teaches that we are the center of the universe, that all of God's creations are right here.

To think that we are the only world (with life) is odd to me. Try doing a little math of the known universe and you'll quickly realize that the probability of life on other planets is nearly incalculable. It's that high. Like a trillion %.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:42 pm To think that we are the only world (with life) is odd to me. Try doing a little math of the known universe and you'll quickly realize that the probability of life on other planets is nearly incalculable. It's that high. Like a trillion %.

The entire universe is fallen so life that we would encounter out there would be part of that.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:34 pm It's always wise to test new doctrine against known doctrine.

Do you not realise that there was a first time revealing of EVERY doctrine ever revealed?

Here, you guys will like this one:

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:40 pm My concern here would not be that the Great and Abominable Church removed something from the Bible, but that Joseph Smith added to the Bible. Just like almost everything else in Nauvoo, the Lord uses Joseph to test us with false doctrines to see if we will believe the original word of God. Joseph never moved to include the PoGP in our canon and the Lord definitely provided no witnesses for it.

Moses 1 was done in 1830.

Niemand wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:45 pm The theological problem here is whether the atonement would thus apply to other worlds or the entire universe.

I agree with Brigham Young that each world has its own savior and devil. I never liked the idea that Christ's atonement here is for the entire universe. Or the corollary that other people on other worlds, therefore, have more faith than we do because they have to believe in a Savior who never came and lived among them (though He may have visited them after the resurrection).

I like Orson Pratt's idea (with support from the King Follet Discourse and the Sermon in the Grove) that the Firstborn of each of Elohim's wives is a savior. And, I have no problem with the thought that exaltation for me and my wife consists of being gods and providing spirits to be adopted by our head God (who will be Jehovah, for us), or that our spirit parents may not have been Elohim and one of his wives. That's what godhood means, and those who can rightly create spirit children, their spirit children are every bit as divine as a "head God's."

I know many Mormons blanch at that --- they want to believe that they will also be "head Gods," but Joseph Smith's teachings seem to shut the door on that (Gods need to have been Saviors themselves).

I'm not sure, but I do like your pancake batter.

I think there probably are many many worlds inhabited by humans, or whatever the right term is.

I doubt it matters much, to my task at hand...which is to see my way through all the confusion on this planet.

The lowly Jesus of Nazerath....

"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist."

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone,

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Amen.

These are but a few of the Bibles testimonies of the glory, honor and power of the One true God, since this God created the heavens and all that is in them, then He also is the infinite , endless Universes God, King, Redeemer and Saviour.
This earth was blest above all earths, for He manifest Himself in the flesh apon this earth, to pay the price of ALL his creations sins, wether it be in the endless heavens and all the earths therein and apon this earth that we are placed apon, this Earth is the very sacrifical Alter were the precious blood was spilt to pay the price of Sin and it is this very earth that this God shall return to sit apon the throne to rule all which is in the heavens above and this earth also.
We must not, we cannot demote Jesus of Nazerath as just one of a long line of lesser gods.
This lowly Jewish Rabbi called Jesus of Nazerath is the very God spoken of by all the biblical prophets, the true and living God of Israel and of all the heavens and all that is in them.

When I look up to the sky apon a clear night , I marvel as my eyes adjust and the skys fill with a bright haze of untold numbers of stars, and I then think of the God of Israel whom created them all, then I feel greatly humbled because this God came to this earth to die apon a Cross for my sins.

Luke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:46 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:34 pm It's always wise to test new doctrine against known doctrine.

Do you not realise that there was a first time revealing of EVERY doctrine ever revealed?

Of course, I do. My statement doesn't preclude that.

Luke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:47 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:40 pm My concern here would not be that the Great and Abominable Church removed something from the Bible, but that Joseph Smith added to the Bible. Just like almost everything else in Nauvoo, the Lord uses Joseph to test us with false doctrines to see if we will believe the original word of God. Joseph never moved to include the PoGP in our canon and the Lord definitely provided no witnesses for it.

Moses 1 was done in 1830.

So we're told, but it doesn't really matter anyway.

The point is, the Lord told Joseph very plainly that the BoM would be his "one gift" and that he wouldn't have another. This is why he never put it forth as canon and why it fails the Law of Witnesses test.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:42 pm known universe

What known universe? We don't know a universe. We look up and see stars above our head. Just because you see stars above your head doesn't mean you can attach a reality to them. The only info we have is what Satan feeds us.

FrankOne wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 4:31 pm I'm not sure, but I do like your pancake batter.

I thought he looked familiar.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 1:11 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:42 pm known universe

What known universe? We don't know a universe. We look up and see stars above our head. Just because you see stars above your head doesn't mean you can attach a reality to them. The only info we have is what Satan feeds us.

Oh, come on… not everything you hear from scientists is false or a ruse. There are very legitimate ways to understand the stars, planetary systems, lights, and even (dare I say) the Universe. Now, I personally think we are just scratching the surface. I think there is WAAAY more life out there than even we can comprehend. It’s like we’re a clown fish that thinks the ocean only consists of the anemone they call home and the reef before them.

Krusty wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:13 pm

Moses 1:33
And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

In the temple we also hear Lucifer say he's "only doing what has been done on other worlds."

Is this doctrine only found in the restoration? If so, and knowing the Great and Abominable Church had power to remove plain and precious things from the old and new testament, why would they only be found in restoration scriptures?

If such doctrine was removed by evil men, why? What is it about such doctrine, what does it stir in the soul of man that "they" would want it removed?

I've made a few assumptions here in my question. Hopefully I'm not crazy. What are your thoughts?

It is in the Book of Enoch, and in apocrypha.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 1:11 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:42 pm known universe

What known universe? We don't know a universe. We look up and see stars above our head. Just because you see stars above your head doesn't mean you can attach a reality to them. The only info we have is what Satan feeds us.

It depends how far you want to take it, whether all reality is but a projection or whether there is an existence beyond our world. i think there is. There is certainly good evidence of other realms.

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:11 am

Krusty wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:13 pm

Moses 1:33
And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

In the temple we also hear Lucifer say he's "only doing what has been done on other worlds."

Is this doctrine only found in the restoration? If so, and knowing the Great and Abominable Church had power to remove plain and precious things from the old and new testament, why would they only be found in restoration scriptures?

If such doctrine was removed by evil men, why? What is it about such doctrine, what does it stir in the soul of man that "they" would want it removed?

I've made a few assumptions here in my question. Hopefully I'm not crazy. What are your thoughts?

It is in the Book of Enoch, and in apocrypha.

The Book of Enoch is almost restoration scripture itself. I believe It wasn't until 1821 that an English translation existed. From the book I'm reading on it, there are verses in the New Testament in which the only other place they are found is the Book of Enoch. So we can suppose the New Testament authors had access to it, but somewhere between then and and recent history it was mostly lost as well.

Can you help me with the references to multiple worlds in the apocrypha?

Krusty wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 8:44 am

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:11 am It is in the Book of Enoch, and in apocrypha.

The Book of Enoch is almost restoration scripture itself. I believe It wasn't until 1821 that an English translation existed. From the book I'm reading on it, there are verses in the New Testament in which the only other place they are found is the Book of Enoch. So we can suppose the New Testament authors had access to it, but somewhere between then and and recent history it was mostly lost as well.

Can you help me with the references to multiple worlds in the apocrypha?

As I've said elsewhere many people conflate the Apocrypha (Maccabees, Tobit etc) with other extracanonical works (Enoch, Thomas, Jubilees etc). The first lot of books would have been in the Smith family's copy of the KJV, while the second lot wouldn't have been. (The Ethiopians have kept some other works in their Bibles, as have various other sects.)

The extra-canonical works vary wildly in terms of their doctrine, ideas and quality. Some strike me as divinely inspired (I received a distinct impression that 2 Esdras (aka 4 Ezra) is, or at least parts of it are.) Others appear to be complete trash.

Enoch, aka 1 Enoch, definitely strikes me as an amazing book. But it has the problem that many of them do, i.e. it appears it may have been tampered with. But the same could be said about the Bible. I provide a summary of it here, along with details of where the astronomical and angelic sections are dealt with.

viewtopic.php?t=69577

The other books calling themselves Enoch (2 & 3 etc) also deal with the issue of the heavens. I haven't written on them yet.

The Arabic Apocalypse of Peter (one of several works with the same name) also features a tour of heaven.
viewtopic.php?t=70682

Testament of Levi in the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
viewtopic.php?t=71314

The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles
viewtopic.php?t=70413

A discussion of the Koran and its Biblical sources, including its ideas of Heaven
viewtopic.php?t=70169

Some discussion of the Apocalyptic motifs in some extracanonical works, again including Heaven.
viewtopic.php?t=71659

Isaiah's journey through Heaven in the Ascension
viewtopic.php?t=71598

This is an incomplete list and doesn't include rhe best known version of the book of Jasher. If you look at some of the other gnostic and Jewish kabbalistic works, you will find even more.