LDS Freedom Forum

This phrase is often used to help ease the conscience of members today: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”

So, this got me thinking, how is the church actually defined these days? How can “the church” not be the leaders when the leaders define all doctrines, theologies, practices, and policies of “the church”?

The church is only as true as they adhere to righteous principles and doctrines. Any degree to which they contradict righteous precepts and doctrines, they become one degree misaligned with truth.

They don't care about being wrong about the things they don't care being wrong about. But they're never wrong about the things they don't want to be wrong about.

The church is those who hear their master's voice and follow him, it's a body of believers throughout all denominations. It was never an organization. Organizations are the works of men.

Was it on this very board where I read the joke "What's the difference between Catholics and Mormons? Catholics teach the infallibility of the Pope, but don't really believe it. Mormon's teach the fallibility of prophets, but don't really believe it".

With the leaders pushing 100% in-line with everything UN Global Agenda, WEF, etc, Luciferian agenda, I don't see how anyone can believe it's "true". I believe it's roots/foundation were in truth. I.e. I can read The Book of Mormon and get the same feelings of truth I do from the Bible. Other than that, it amazes me all the mental gymnastics people do to hold on to "The Church is True" concept. Even if it is "true", all scriptures I've been reading clearly expect us to know Jesus personally and not rely on any "prophet" other than Jesus.

The bible dictionary defines church in a way that can only match the LDS organization. This is how they define the "true church" because it was setup by God according to them. Therefore it is true and can't be not true.

"The church is the organized body of believers who have taken upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ by baptism and confirmation. To be the true church it must be the Lord’s church and must have His laws, His name, and be governed by Him through representatives whom He has appointed"
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=eng

LateOutOfBed wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:05 am Was it on this very board where I read the joke "What's the difference between Catholics and Mormons? Catholics teach the infallibility of the Pope, but don't really believe it. Mormon's teach the fallibility of prophets, but don't really believe it".

With the leaders pushing 100% in-line with everything UN Global Agenda, WEF, etc, Luciferian agenda, I don't see how anyone can believe it's "true". I believe it's roots/foundation were in truth. I.e. I can read The Book of Mormon and get the same feelings of truth I do from the Bible. Other than that, it amazes me all the mental gymnastics people do to hold on to "The Church is True" concept. Even if it is "true", all scriptures I've been reading clearly expect us to know Jesus personally and not rely on any "prophet" other than Jesus.

Yes, I believe that joke/quote has been referenced a few times here on the forum. The difficulty with LDS teachings is that the brethren preach both. "I'm imperfect, but I cannot lead you astray." Duplicitous indeed.

I can see members' logic going something like this:

Member: Well, yes, they are imperfect in their personal lives, but the Lord won't allow them to lead us astray as far as the gospel is concerned.

Me: What happens when one prophet condemns or preaches against the doctrines of a previous prophet?

Member: Uh... well, the living prophet is more important than a dead prophet. We follow the living prophet.

Me: And the new guy can never teach false doctrine?

Member: Correct!

Me: Until he doesn't?

Member: Correct, the Lord will kill him first.

Me: Like the past prophets died?

Member: Correct!

Me: So which prophets died due to false doctrine?

Member: Oh, you'll know, just use the gift of discernment.

It is the difference between the gospel: true, and the church: not true.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:43 am The church is those who hear their master's voice and follow him, it's a body of believers throughout all denominations. It was never an organization. Organizations are the works of men.

....And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually....

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:36 am They don't care about being wrong about the things they don't care being wrong about. But they're never wrong about the things they don't want to be wrong about.

leaders:
" you will curse the day you did not do
all the profits asked of you"

members:
"promise me that all you say
is true,
love me, that's all I ask of you"

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:32 am It is the difference between the gospel: true, and the church: not true.

I think it would be a worthy endeavor for a follower of Christ to actually define what "the gospel" really is.

And then to come to the reality that all churches that strive to bring you closer to God have some truth. In reality, all churches are in varying degrees of truth and apostasy.

Nelson made a subtle but major shift in philosophies. Past presidents held closer to a belief that God had revealed things to Joseph, and Joseph was The Prophet of the restoration
so the current presidents main function was trying to stay true to what Joseph the Restorer revealed.

Nelson says "no" Joseph was only "a revealer" and so am I, and I am in charge today. Since he declares it an ongoing restoration, he can change, alter, remove or "adjust" anything he wants, including anything done by any (or all) of his predecessors.

Your allegiance, loyalty, and faith are to be placed in him...not in the church, not in traditions, not in the past presidents, and not even in the Scriptures.

tribrac wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:07 am Nelson made a subtle but major shift in philosophies. Past presidents held closer to a belief that God had revealed things to Joseph, and Joseph was The Prophet of the restoration
so the current presidents main function was trying to stay true to what Joseph the Restorer revealed.

Nelson says "no" Joseph was only "a revealer" and so am I, and I am in charge today. Since he declares it an ongoing restoration, he can change, alter, remove or "adjust" anything he wants, including anything done by any (or all) of his predecessors.

Your allegiance, loyalty, and faith are to be placed in him...not in the church, not in traditions, not in the past presidents, and not even in the Scriptures.

RMNs phrase of the "ongoing restoration" galvanized the changes as if from the very lips of God in the minds of the saints.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:14 am "The church is the organized body of believers who have taken upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ by baptism and confirmation. To be the true church it must be the Lord’s church and must have His laws, His name, and be governed by Him through representatives whom He has appointed"
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=eng

This definition is right on the money.

Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:49 pm

Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:14 am "The church is the organized body of believers who have taken upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ by baptism and confirmation. To be the true church it must be the Lord’s church and must have His laws, His name, and be governed by Him through representatives whom He has appointed"
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=eng

This definition is right on the money.

Based on this then, starting on May 3rd 1834 when the name of the church was changed, then it was no longer God's church.
Where is the revelation stating the name should be changed back?

simpleton wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:33 am

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:43 am The church is those who hear their master's voice and follow him, it's a body of believers throughout all denominations. It was never an organization. Organizations are the works of men.

....And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually....

Sad that the church has changed so much since the Lord said that.

LDS Physician wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:07 pm

simpleton wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:33 am

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:43 am The church is those who hear their master's voice and follow him, it's a body of believers throughout all denominations. It was never an organization. Organizations are the works of men.

....And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually....

Sad that the church has changed so much since the Lord said that.

The foundation Joseph laid, is sure. The newly constructed portion, (well relatively newer) is what will be reconstructed.

LateOutOfBed wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:05 am Was it on this very board where I read the joke "What's the difference between Catholics and Mormons? Catholics teach the infallibility of the Pope, but don't really believe it. Mormon's teach the fallibility of prophets, but don't really believe it".

Yep, that's one of mine.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:43 am The church is those who hear their master's voice and follow him, it's a body of believers throughout all denominations. It was never an organization. Organizations are the works of men.

I couldn't see this for a long time but this is 100% accurate, Shawn.
There are many who thoroughly live the Lord's gospel outside of 'the church'.

simpleton wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:30 pm

LDS Physician wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:07 pm

simpleton wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:33 am



....And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually....

Sad that the church has changed so much since the Lord said that.

The foundation Joseph laid, is sure. The newly constructed portion, (well relatively newer) is what will be reconstructed.

If you believe D&C 101, the enemy will enter in and ravage the place and the "servant" will rebuild with the remnant and righteous young men and middle-aged men.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:43 am The church is those who hear their master's voice and follow him, it's a body of believers throughout all denominations. It was never an organization. Organizations are the works of men.

^ Christ and the Holy Spirit are the teachers and the church are the students. If a real prophet happens to be around, he can serve as someone to relay pertinent information for the others that can't hear God, but that's all he is to be, a messenger.

LDS Physician wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 4:00 pm

simpleton wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:30 pm

LDS Physician wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:07 pm

Sad that the church has changed so much since the Lord said that.

The foundation Joseph laid, is sure. The newly constructed portion, (well relatively newer) is what will be reconstructed.

If you believe D&C 101, the enemy will enter in and ravage the place and the "servant" will rebuild with the remnant and righteous young men and middle-aged men.

thanks. I decided to read it again and found it refreshing.

Here's a pretty concise definition that helps me understand:

Church

The Lord defines His church as: whosoever is…baptized unto repentance (Mosiah 11:21). More clearly, in this day He has said, Behold, this is my doctrine — whosoever repents and comes unto me, the same is my church (JSH 10:19).1 The Lord’s church means those who repent and are baptized in His name.2 The word “church” comes from the Greek word ekklēsia (ἐκκλησία), meaning an “assembly” or a “calling out or forth,” used throughout the Old and New Covenants. It is a group of people gathered together, not necessarily as a formal institution or organization.3 The modern word is derived from “the Old English cirice, circe, ‘place of assemblage set aside for Christian worship; the body of Christian believers, Christians collectively; ecclesiastical authority or power,’ from the Proto-Germanic kirika (Dutch kerk, German Kirche), which is probably borrowed via an unrecorded Gothic word from Greek kyriake (oikia), kyriakon doma ‘the Lord’s (house),’ from kyrios ‘ruler, lord.’ The Greek kyriakon (adj.) ‘of the Lord’ was used of houses of Christian worship since c. 300, especially in the East, though it was less common in this sense than ekklesia or basilike.”4

The original development under Joseph Smith was something quite distinct from all existing faiths. It was not just a new religion. It was a wholesale resurrection of an ancient concept of “Peoplehood.” It was radical. Its purpose was to change diverse assortments of people, from every culture and faith, with every kind of ethnic and racial composition, into a new kind of People. They were to be united under the banner of a New and Everlasting Covenant, resurrecting the ancient Hebraic notion of nationhood and Peoplehood. No matter what their former culture was, they were adopted inside a new family, a covenant family. Status was defined not by virtue of what one believed or confessed, but instead by what covenants they had assumed. What returned through Joseph Smith was not a religion, nor an institution, nor merely a faith. It was, instead, the radical notion that an ancient covenant family was being regathered into a separate People. This return to ancient roots brought with it, as the hallmark of its source of power, the idea of renewed covenants that brought each individual into a direct contract with God. It did not matter what they believed. It only mattered that they accepted and took upon them the covenant. Reconciliation between what Joseph Smith restored and other religions should never have been a goal. Joseph’s restoration was not a church. It was not a religion. It was not a bundle of beliefs. The original Restoration could never be like any other mainstream Christian faith. They were churches. Joseph restored Peoplehood. “To go from what Joseph restored to a common footing with other contemporary Christian faiths requires us to first abandon the concept that we are neither a new form of Christianity nor a return to Jewish antecedents. We are something quite different from either. We are a Hebraic resurrection of God’s People, clothed with a covenant, and engaged in a direct relationship with God that makes us distinct from all other people.”

A man dies & goes to Heaven. Upon arriving at the Pearly Gates he is told "Welcome to Heaven, everyone is equal here."
The man is then given a tour of Heaven and finds that it is indeed true.
The man decides he's just got to try the food & goes & stands in the cafeteria line.
While waiting ,a man in green scrubs goes rushing to the front of the line & gets his food ahead of all the others.
"Hey, I thought everyone is equal here. Why did he cut line?"
"Oh, him?" says St Peter, "That's God, he thinks he's a surgeon."

The Church was meant to be true, but it's had some problems. Why? I would think it's three things. Infiltration by cabalists (tares). Problems with the members' worldliness. Problems with the leaders.

When did it start? A long time ago, I think.

What do about it? Wait on the Lord. Call on his holy name. Do the best that we know how.