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Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 5:23 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
Atrasado wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 4:57 pm
The Church was meant to be true, but it's had some problems. Why? I would think it's three things. Infiltration by cabalists (tares). Problems with the members' worldliness. Problems with the leaders.
When did it start? A long time ago, I think.
What do about it? Wait on the Lord. Call on his holy name. Do the best that we know how.
Assess whether the boat is on fire. Walk on water.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 5:24 pm
by TheDuke
I think the way "true" is used is not quite accurate. Saying the gospel is "true" is saying that the teachings of Jesus are "truth" and lead to salvation and exaltation. That seems a normal use of true -- i.e. truth. Saying the church is "true" is just saying it is of god and owned by god. the word "true" here means legitimate or real or authentic, but does not mean "truth" as in the gospel definition.
We can argue about true gospel and true doctrines, but there all things are relative save the basics of baptism, repentance and the atonement. Those are also very vague and undefined. But, it is also difficult to define what true church means. IMO anyway. I accept the statement as I feel the LDS church as more accurate doctrine than other Christian religions. I also know from the voice of the Lord that LDS ordinances are approved of him (well no input on second anointing????) as he commanded me such. I don't think the LDS church is very perfect, or its doctrine taught today is perfect. Nor do I think perfection in doctrine is either allowed or found. Everything, every truth we see is a white lie. We know nothing with perfection in this life about eternity, not one thing. So the question is one of relative nature.
Like saying the BoM is closest scripture to god with most truth............... ok, still could be 15% and bible 10% and that fits. BTW, I will say that most Christian religions have more truth than non-Christian religions in the same manner, i.e. not facts or loving statements but because only repentance can be accomplished through Christ. So, it doesn't matter if eastern languages have more facts and chakras, etc... their dead ends without Christ (telestial religions if you will).
All this makes the BoM statement of only two churches complicated and another over simplification to be misused by many (including Q15) in interpretation (thinking McConkie). It only means if you're united with Satan your in the wrong church, otherwise your in some level of the right church, whether that level is telestial, terrestrial, celestial or exalted is to be sorted out by the HSoP.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 5:25 pm
by Bjǫrnúlfr
Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:59 pm
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:49 pm
Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:14 am
"The church is the organized body of believers who have taken upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ by baptism and confirmation. To be the true church it must be the Lord’s church and must have His laws, His name, and be governed by Him through representatives whom He has appointed"
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=eng
This definition is right on the money.
Based on this then, starting on May 3rd 1834 when the name of the church was changed, then it was no longer God's church.
Where is the revelation stating the name should be changed back?
Section 115
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 5:48 pm
by simpleton
LDS Physician wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 4:00 pm
simpleton wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:30 pm
LDS Physician wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:07 pm
Sad that the church has changed so much since the Lord said that.
The foundation Joseph laid, is sure. The newly constructed portion, (well relatively newer) is what will be reconstructed.
If you believe D&C 101, the enemy will enter in and ravage the place and the "servant" will rebuild with the remnant and righteous young men and middle-aged men.
Yes I do, but upon the existing foundation.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 5:51 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
simpleton wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 5:48 pm
LDS Physician wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 4:00 pm
simpleton wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:30 pm
The foundation Joseph laid, is sure. The newly constructed portion, (well relatively newer) is what will be reconstructed.
If you believe D&C 101, the enemy will enter in and ravage the place and the "servant" will rebuild with the remnant and righteous young men and middle-aged men.
Yes I do, but upon the existing foundation.
Which aspects would remain? (or be restored for that matter)
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 6:03 pm
by Atrasado
TheDuke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 5:24 pm
I think the way "true" is used is not quite accurate. Saying the gospel is "true" is saying that the teachings of Jesus are "truth" and lead to salvation and exaltation. That seems a normal use of true -- i.e. truth. Saying the church is "true" is just saying it is of god and owned by god. the word "true" here means legitimate or real or authentic, but does not mean "truth" as in the gospel definition.
We can argue about true gospel and true doctrines, but there all things are relative save the basics of baptism, repentance and the atonement. Those are also very vague and undefined. But, it is also difficult to define what true church means. IMO anyway. I accept the statement as I feel the LDS church as more accurate doctrine than other Christian religions. I also know from the voice of the Lord that LDS ordinances are approved of him (well no input on second anointing????) as he commanded me such. I don't think the LDS church is very perfect, or its doctrine taught today is perfect. Nor do I think perfection in doctrine is either allowed or found. Everything, every truth we see is a white lie. We know nothing with perfection in this life about eternity, not one thing. So the question is one of relative nature.
Like saying the BoM is closest scripture to god with most truth............... ok, still could be 15% and bible 10% and that fits. BTW, I will say that most Christian religions have more truth than non-Christian religions in the same manner, i.e. not facts or loving statements but because only repentance can be accomplished through Christ. So, it doesn't matter if eastern languages have more facts and chakras, etc... their dead ends without Christ (telestial religions if you will).
All this makes the BoM statement of only two churches complicated and another over simplification to be misused by many (including Q15) in interpretation (thinking McConkie). It only means if you're united with Satan your in the wrong church, otherwise your in some level of the right church, whether that level is telestial, terrestrial, celestial or exalted is to be sorted out by the HSoP.
Well put, Duke. I can agree with this.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 6:12 pm
by Telavian
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 5:25 pm
Section 115
That was added in 1876 which was well after Joseph. Why do you think that is the case?
The original is crossed out. Why do you think that is the case?
That was received almost at the height of the violence that would be the Missouri War and God accepted them still?
Do you think they were still God's people when they were burning Missourian's homes and physically assaulting them?
Do you think they were still God's people when they were saying they were going to kill Missourian's and hang them?
Do you think they were still God's people when they threatened their dissenters with extermination?
The timing could not be any more suspicious.
https://uncorrelatedmormonism.com/turned-over-to-satan/
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 6:21 pm
by Mindfields
Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:12 pm
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 5:25 pm
Section 115
That was added in 1876 which was well after Joseph. Why do you think that is the case?
The original is crossed out. Why do you think that is the case?
That was received almost at the height of the violence that would be the Missouri War and God accepted them still?
Do you think they were still God's people when they were burning Missourian's homes and physically assaulting them?
Do you think they were still God's people when they were saying they were going to kill Missourian's and hang them?
Do you think they were still God's people when they threatened their dissenters with extermination?
The timing could not be any more suspicious.
https://uncorrelatedmormonism.com/turned-over-to-satan/
That's a question for General Joseph Smith.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 6:24 pm
by Bjǫrnúlfr
Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:12 pm
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 5:25 pm
Section 115
That was added in 1876 which was well after Joseph. Why do you think that is the case?
The original is crossed out. Why do you think that is the case?
That was received almost at the height of the violence that would be the Missouri War and God accepted them still?
Do you think they were still God's people when they were burning Missourian's homes and physically assaulting them?
Do you think they were still God's people when they were saying they were going to kill Missourian's and hang them?
Do you think they were still God's people when they threatened their dissenters with extermination?
The timing could not be any more suspicious.
https://uncorrelatedmormonism.com/turned-over-to-satan/
I believe that the Lord’s true church was restored on April 6th 1830 and has remained on earth to this day.
Defending themselves against mob violence and certain members taking things too far didn’t change this.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 6:57 pm
by Reluctant Watchman
False doctrine does though.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 7:41 pm
by Rumpelstiltskin
Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:29 am
This phrase is often used to help ease the conscience of members today: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
So, this got me thinking, how is the church actually defined these days? How can “the church” not be the leaders when the leaders define all doctrines, theologies, practices, and policies of “the church”?
The church is only as true as they adhere to righteous principles and doctrines. Any degree to which they contradict righteous precepts and doctrines, they become one degree misaligned with truth.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Gospel (watered down) is contained within the Church but it is not the Church. They are separate entities. The Church is a gentile organization with gentile, fallible leaders. When the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, the Gospel will be taken from them and taken to the house of Israel.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 8:37 pm
by Telavian
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:24 pm
Defending themselves against mob violence and certain members taking things too far didn’t change this.
Defending themselves? You must not have actually read anything about the time period.
"We could stand in our door and see houses burning every night for over two weeks… the Mormons completely gutted Daviess County. There was scarcely a Missourian’s home left standing in the county. Nearly every one was burned."
"The love of pillage grew upon them very fast, for they plundered every kind of property they could get a hold of." - John Corrill
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 9:01 pm
by Bjǫrnúlfr
Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:37 pm
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:24 pm
Defending themselves against mob violence and certain members taking things too far didn’t change this.
Defending themselves? You must not have actually read anything about the time period.
"We could stand in our door and see houses burning every night for over two weeks… the Mormons completely gutted Daviess County. There was scarcely a Missourian’s home left standing in the county. Nearly every one was burned."
"The love of pillage grew upon them very fast, for they plundered every kind of property they could get a hold of." - John Corrill
Why are you taking those two statements by bitter enemies of the church at face value?
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 9:10 pm
by TheDuke
Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:37 pm
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:24 pm
Defending themselves against mob violence and certain members taking things too far didn’t change this.
Defending themselves? You must not have actually read anything about the time period.
"We could stand in our door and see houses burning every night for over two weeks… the Mormons completely gutted Daviess County. There was scarcely a Missourian’s home left standing in the county. Nearly every one was burned."
"The love of pillage grew upon them very fast, for they plundered every kind of property they could get a hold of." - John Corrill
yeah, BTW skip the Mormons for a moment and look at the history of Mo, right up to the pre-post and during civil war massacres. Even w/o a 10 year Mormon issue there is nearly 60 years of hatred and atrocities that both sides lie about, right up to Billy the Kid and on......... They made movies like Jose Wales, and the one with Tom Selleck (cannot remember his name), John Wayne, and on about the evils in Mo. Not sure why but hatred was there. Perhaps all from the North vs. South, slaves vs. no slaves, etc... that used Mo as a pawn for several years with the Mason-Dixon stuff? It was there before during and after the Mormons in two small counties too boot.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 9:12 pm
by Telavian
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:01 pm
Why are you taking those two statements by bitter enemies of the church at face value?
"Bitter enemies", seriously? You are grasping at straws because you can't support your argument.
The first statement is from an unknown witness of the time. So your claim is without merit.
John Corrill wanted more democracy in the church and less authoritarianism. This makes him a "bitter enemy". What a joke.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 9:55 pm
by Bjǫrnúlfr
Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:12 pm
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:01 pm
Why are you taking those two statements by bitter enemies of the church at face value?
"Bitter enemies", seriously? You are grasping at straws because you can't support your argument.
The first statement is from an unknown witness of the time. So your claim is without merit.
John Corrill wanted more democracy in the church and less authoritarianism. This makes him a "bitter enemy". What a joke.
I think the description of John Corrill is accurate. And you must not be well versed in the Missouri War and the extermination order if you think the Saints weren’t defending themselves.
Regardless, you have no reason to accept either statement at face value, other than your belief that you can use them to support your desired narrative. Even if they are honest accounts, and not embellishments, you aren’t presenting the whole story of what happened.
And more importantly, the revelations of God, like section 124, and numerous statements by Joseph Smith prove your theory of the church having been rejected by the 1838 false.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 10:28 pm
by Telavian
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:55 pm
And more importantly, the revelations of God, like section 124, and numerous statements by Joseph Smith prove your theory of the church having been rejected by the 1838 false.
How does 124 support that? I think it is evidence that God was giving them another chance.
Have your kids ever deserved a punishment, but you give them another chance even though you really shouldn't?
If they were God's people then why would he say do this or I will reject you?
In 124 he also says that if the people listen to him they won't be moved, yet they were moved.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 10:33 pm
by Bjǫrnúlfr
Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:28 pm
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:55 pm
And more importantly, the revelations of God, like section 124, and numerous statements by Joseph Smith prove your theory of the church having been rejected by the 1838 false.
How does 124 support that? I think it is evidence that God was giving them another chance.
Have your kids ever deserved a punishment, but you give them another chance even though you really shouldn't?
If they were God's people then why would he say do this or I will reject you?
In 124 he also says that if the people listen to him they won't be moved, yet they were moved.
I’m assuming that you’re referring to section 124, not 123. The Lord repeatedly refers to the saints as his church in this revelation and explains why they were driven out. It’s literally the exact opposite of what you are claiming.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 11:08 pm
by Telavian
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:33 pm
I’m assuming that you’re referring to section 124, not 123. The Lord repeatedly refers to the saints as his church in this revelation and explains why they were driven out. It’s literally the exact opposite of what you are claiming.
It is kind of amazing how people can look at the same thing and come to totally different conclusions.
The people had time, had money, and had a motive. They controlled the entire town and their was nothing stopping them at all. Yet they chose to build a 3-story masonic logic before the house and temple. Yet we claim today that God didn't really mean what he said and was just joking. He gave them further truth because why not right. If you buy your kid a junker car and they crash it then you punish them by buying them a much nicer car, right?
"But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me. But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God."
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 11:20 pm
by Bjǫrnúlfr
Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 11:08 pm
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:33 pm
I’m assuming that you’re referring to section 124, not 123. The Lord repeatedly refers to the saints as his church in this revelation and explains why they were driven out. It’s literally the exact opposite of what you are claiming.
It is kind of amazing how people can look at the same thing and come to totally different conclusions.
The people had time, had money, and had a motive. They controlled the entire town and their was nothing stopping them at all. Yet they chose to build a 3-story masonic logic before the house and temple. Yet we claim today that God didn't really mean what he said and was just joking. He gave them further truth because why not right. If you buy your kid a junker car and they crash it then you punish them by buying them a much nicer car, right?
"But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me. But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God."
I think it’s pretty amazing how someone can claim that the church was rejected by God before the saints arrived in Nauvoo when the Lord refers to the saints as his church several times in revelations given in Nauvoo.
And then somehow the church is rejected
again for not building the temple with a baptismal font for baptisms for the dead, even though history shows that they did build the temple with the baptismal font as commanded. Pretty amazing indeed.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 28th, 2023, 11:37 pm
by Being There
Cruiserdude wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:33 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:43 am
The church is those who hear their master's voice and follow him, it's a body of believers throughout all denominations. It was never an organization. Organizations are the works of men.
I couldn't see this for a long time but this is 100% accurate, Shawn.
There are many who thoroughly live the Lord's gospel outside of 'the church'.
Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me,
the same is my church.
viewtopic.php?p=1423259&hilit=the+same+ ... h#p1423259
* "every time "church" is mentioned in the New Testament,
it refers only to the people who believe in Christ"
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 29th, 2023, 1:16 am
by SJR3t2
D&C 121 AMEN to the priesthood of the man that takes to hid his sins. LDS / Brighamite leaders have been doing this for a very long time.
JS Last dream is a prophecy of a very bleak state of the restoration.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2023/07/12/jose ... ast-dream/
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 29th, 2023, 6:58 am
by Telavian
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 11:20 pm
And then somehow the church is rejected
again for not building the temple with a baptismal font for baptisms for the dead, even though history shows that they did build the temple with the baptismal font as commanded. Pretty amazing indeed.
I like how you inserted that in there even though God never said that. He said build a house unto me, not a baptismal font.
The members didn't build the house and were quite clearly rejected. Today we frame being kicked out of Nauvoo as a blessing, but it was a curse.
The Nauvoo temple was never completed. You can lie to yourself and say it was, however history says otherwise.
"President Joseph Smith arose and addressed the meeting as a Christian prophet and addressed for about an hour much to our edification. Many remarks he made were plain and pointed some very applicable to Dr Robert D. Foster, which he afterwards acknowledged to be true. Joseph said the pagan prophet had prophesied one thing that was true, viz, that if we did not build the temple & Nauvoo House it would prove the ruin of the place. That if we did not build those buildings we might as well leave the place. And that it was as necessary to build one as the other. And many other things were said much to the purpose."
"Don’t deny revelation—if the Temple and Nauvoo House are not finished you must run away…
The building of Nauvoo House is just as sacred in my view as the Temple…
I want the Nauvoo House built, it must be built, our salvation depends upon it…
Finishing Nauvoo House [is] like a man finishing a fight. If he gives up, he is killed—if he holds out a little longer, he may live."
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 29th, 2023, 7:03 am
by Bjǫrnúlfr
Telavian wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 6:58 am
Bjǫrnúlfr wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 11:20 pm
And then somehow the church is rejected
again for not building the temple with a baptismal font for baptisms for the dead, even though history shows that they did build the temple with the baptismal font as commanded. Pretty amazing indeed.
I like how you inserted that in there even though God never said that. He said build a house unto me, not a baptismal font.
The members didn't build the house and were quite clearly rejected. Today we frame being kicked out of Nauvoo as a blessing, but it was a curse.
I’m beginning to wonder if you have actually read section 124.
Re: “The church is true, but the leaders are imperfect.”
Posted: September 29th, 2023, 7:03 am
by Reluctant Watchman
SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 1:16 am
D&C 121 AMEN to the priesthood of the man that takes to hid his sins. LDS / Brighamite leaders have been doing this for a very long time.
JS Last dream is a prophecy of a very bleak state of the restoration.
https://seekingyhwh.org/2023/07/12/jose ... ast-dream/
Thanks for sharing.
Joseph had two dreams in close succession right before they were murdered, and a third not long before that. I believe we can learn a great deal from all of them:
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/josephs-last-dreams
