LDS Freedom Forum

Both can't be right... Which do you choose?

Here is what Gordon B. Hinckley had to say about this subject:
“Our whole strength rests on the validity of that vision.
It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud.
If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens.”
—Gordon B. Hinckley on Joseph Smith’s First Vision, October 2002 General Conference

I wonder what kind of faith in Christ he had.

When I was beginning to learn about "Mormonism" so many years ago, I knew that the Book of Mormon was what it purported to be. My heart was lit up with the Spirit of the Lord. Truth resonated down to my fingertips.

Then I got to the Pearl of Great Price. Something about the "First Vision" I had to force myself to believe. It became an intellectual struggle for me, and of course I caved-in and went with the crowd. I talked myself into believing Joseph Smith was a prophet. I went with the narrative for all so too long. Why didn't I listen to the Spirit's voice?

I am so grateful to my heavenly Father for freeing me from priestcraft and showing me why things didn't seem right so long ago. As I prepare for the judgement seat as best as a terribly flawed person like me can, I want to be judged on my faith, repentance, and keeping of the commandments and doctrine of Christ, and not fables and lies.

I would challenge anyone reading this post to hold judgement, and have the courage to read the post associated with the below link.

A shout-out is definitely due to the author of this post:
https://bookofmormonism.com/2023/09/27/ ... st-vision/

Your thoughts?

There’s a lot to digest in that article. Way too long to make a point-by-point analysis.

Basically he doesn’t like the multiple version of the vision account. And he compares scriptural experiences with Joseph’s experience and is parsing the differences.

Do you believe Joseph had any prophetic gifts? Do you expect prophets to be perfect?

Do you continue to believe the doctrines and narrative of the BoM?

I reiterate, have the courage to hold judgement, read all the the post (don't be a lazy listener), and not look for a reason to be obstinate:

"I would challenge anyone reading this post to hold judgement, and have the courage to read the post associated with the below link.

A shout-out is definitely due to the author of this post:
https://bookofmormonism.com/2023/09/27/ ... st-vision/"

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 7:06 am Basically he doesn’t like the multiple version of the vision account.

No, that's not it.

His primary case against the First Vision is the BoM itself. 3 Nephi 15:23

"And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost."

All the secondary evidence is pretty good too, though.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:03 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 7:06 am Basically he doesn’t like the multiple version of the vision account.

No, that's not it.

His primary case against the First Vision is the BoM itself. 3 Nephi 15:23

"And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost."

All the secondary evidence is pretty good too, though.

I guess we could explore the idea of which Gentile era he was speaking to, and what the words “not at any time” mean, and if this actually had application to Joseph Smith.

And then we could compare other accounts of the Lord appearing to people in our day and defining/deciding whether they are also “Gentiles”.

Or you could just entertain the idea that the BoM is true, lol.

All the early leaders were gentiles and as the article points out, there was no such thing as a first vision until the 1840's.

So, more Nauvoo doctrines that contradict the BoM.

You should read the article.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:03 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 7:06 am Basically he doesn’t like the multiple version of the vision account.

No, that's not it.

His primary case against the First Vision is the BoM itself. 3 Nephi 15:23

"And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost."

All the secondary evidence is pretty good too, though.

Who is a goyim?

Is the house of Israel, who is the lost 10 tribes a goyim?

Does the BOM say it’s less than the New Testament? Yes

Does the New Testament reference the Old Testament as law? Yes

I'll buy anyone lunch if they can actually tell me how Bronco's post relates to this thread.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:01 am I'll buy anyone lunch if they can actually tell me how Bronco's post relates to this thread.

It actually relates because lucifer will twist and darken truth. He is incapable of telling a pure truth. Seems like he brings the same minions out of the woodwork.

Anyway, you now owe me lunch ... shall we say 10/11 in SLC? Just kidding ...

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:01 am I'll buy anyone lunch if they can actually tell me how Bronco's post relates to this thread.

Don’t say anything if it doesn’t agree with Shawn?

You said the issue is that the gentiles can’t have visitation from the father and the son per the BOM. Per the tagged blog.

So I asked if the house of Israel is a gentile. Jospeh Smith is an Ephraimite.

So many books in the Old Testament separate house of Israel and the house of Judah. Thus my question about what book trumps the other books.

Nephi saw the last days but was forbidden to write about per the BOM and was told John will write about it. The book of revelation took 400 years to be accepted by all main churches to be canonized, ie because of the book of revelation we can know with a surety that the New Testament is needed and true. Jesus refers to the Old Testament as law on multiple occasions. So we know with a surety that the Old Testament is needed and true.

If we understand the beginning we can understand the end.

CaptainM wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:44 am Both can't be right...

Really?.... Why not?

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:12 am Or you could just entertain the idea that the BoM is true, lol.

All the early leaders were gentiles and as the article points out, there was no such thing as a first vision until the 1840's.

So, more Nauvoo doctrines that contradict the BoM.

You should read the article.

Or that it is a record where men take a thousand different perspectives on it. We come back to the same challenge with your Father/Son viewpoint. It's one perspective of many.

CamptainM, I get the sense that you don't believe Joseph was a prophet at all, is that correct?

Robin Hood wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:48 am

CaptainM wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:44 am Both can't be right...

Really?.... Why not?

I am always open to answer questions and share experiences if the requests come in an honest, cordial way. I think your question fits that approach.

I'm not being snarky ... really, but I have to ask, did you read the reference material? I believe it will truthfully answer your question. Any attempt of mine to pull out specifics would surely not do justice.

I know it is a long read, but I believe well worth the effort. I do not want to play with the souls of men.

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:57 am

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:03 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 7:06 am Basically he doesn’t like the multiple version of the vision account.

No, that's not it.

His primary case against the First Vision is the BoM itself. 3 Nephi 15:23

"And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost."

All the secondary evidence is pretty good too, though.

Who is a goyim?

Is the house of Israel, who is the lost 10 tribes a goyim?

Does the BOM say it’s less than the New Testament? Yes

Does the New Testament reference the Old Testament as law? Yes

There is no such thing as 'A GENTILE' - it is always plural as in a collective (tribe, nation) or multiple collectives.

Hebrew (Goy) - nation, people
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/1471.htm

Greek (Ethnos) - a race, a nation, the nations (as distinct from Israel)
https://biblehub.com/greek/1484.htm

NT
The Jews: The observant Jews who reject the Greek culture and language.
The Hellenists: The Jews who adopted the Greek culture and language.
The Nations: The Jews from the ten lost tribes.
The Strangers: Non-Jews who join themselves with the Jews."

The word "gentile" comes from the Latin translation: Gentilis (From gēns ("clan, tribe") + -īlis ("-ile")) originally meant a non-Roman, but neither GOI nor ETHNOS necessarily means non-Israel

Note: The Greek words ethne and ethnos, translated nations or gentiles, are the source of our English word, ethnic, signifying a blood-relative. They certainly do not mean 'heathen' or 'non-Israelite' as is popularly taught today.


The Gentiles include the 10 tribes. The 10 tribes were scattered amongst the nations as prophesied in Ephraim's blessing.

Genesis 48:19 And his father refused and said, “I know it, my son, I know it. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.”

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:57 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:57 am

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:03 am
No, that's not it.

His primary case against the First Vision is the BoM itself. 3 Nephi 15:23

"And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost."

All the secondary evidence is pretty good too, though.

Who is a goyim?

Is the house of Israel, who is the lost 10 tribes a goyim?

Does the BOM say it’s less than the New Testament? Yes

Does the New Testament reference the Old Testament as law? Yes

There is no such thing as 'A GENTILE' - it is always plural as in a collective (tribe, nation) or multiple collectives.

Hebrew (Goy) - nation, people
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/1471.htm

Greek (Ethnos) - a race, a nation, the nations (as distinct from Israel)
https://biblehub.com/greek/1484.htm

NT
The Jews: The observant Jews who reject the Greek culture and language.
The Hellenists: The Jews who adopted the Greek culture and language.
The Nations: The Jews from the ten lost tribes.
The Strangers: Non-Jews who join themselves with the Jews."

The word "gentile" comes from the Latin translation: Gentilis (From gēns ("clan, tribe") + -īlis ("-ile")) originally meant a non-Roman, but neither GOI nor ETHNOS necessarily means non-Israel

Note: The Greek words ethne and ethnos, translated nations or gentiles, are the source of our English word, ethnic, signifying a blood-relative. They certainly do not mean 'heathen' or 'non-Israelite' as is popularly taught today.


The Gentiles include the 10 tribes. The 10 tribes were scattered amongst the nations as prophesied in Ephraim's blessing.

Genesis 48:19 And his father refused and said, “I know it, my son, I know it. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.”

Did I use gentile? I have brought up your discussion points (not as detailed) before, to deaf ears.

I used goyim for good reason…..

It is used by the house of Judah in reference to people who are not children of Abraham.

Even though we are “scattered” we are of Ephraim, thus we are of the house of Ephraim.

The Lord won’t show himself per the BOM to an aboriginal……

CaptainM wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:39 am

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:01 am I'll buy anyone lunch if they can actually tell me how Bronco's post relates to this thread.

It actually relates because lucifer will twist and darken truth. He is incapable of telling a pure truth. Seems like he brings the same minions out of the woodwork.

Anyway, you now owe me lunch ... shall we say 10/11 in SLC? Just kidding ...

So the BOM trumps “The Law”? Who is of Satan?

3 Nephi 15
22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.
23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.
24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.

Per this use of the word Gentile, is everyone but a member of the house of Levi or Judah a Gentile?


Let’s not be of the Father that the Pharisees followed, the Devil!

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:46 am You said the issue is that the gentiles can’t have visitation from the father and the son per the BOM. Per the tagged blog.

So I asked if the house of Israel is a gentile. Jospeh Smith is an Ephraimite.

According to the BoM, gentiles bring it forth, so he is a gentile. I'm aware of the Ephraimite claims, however, I just don't see them meshing with scripture, but you're good to point out counter arguments.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:16 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:46 am You said the issue is that the gentiles can’t have visitation from the father and the son per the BOM. Per the tagged blog.

So I asked if the house of Israel is a gentile. Jospeh Smith is an Ephraimite.

According to the BoM, gentiles bring it forth, so he is a gentile. I'm aware of the Ephraimite claims, however, I just don't see them meshing with scripture, but you're good to point out counter arguments.

Let’s break down the scripture that you think says that.

What verses say that not the “house of Israel” bring forth his last great work?


3 Nephi 21
1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:57 am The Gentiles include the 10 tribes. The 10 tribes were scattered amongst the nations as prophesied in Ephraim's blessing.

The Southern Kingdom got "scattered", hence they are the "dispersed of Judah". The Northern Kingdom was led away. Any who broke off and intermixed with the gentiles are numbered among the gentiles.

The terms used for these "other sheep", the Northern Kingdom, are "lost" and "separated".

And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.

I would submit that they are still lost and separated and that we still do not know of them, despite our pride that our science has discovered everything.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:32 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:57 am The Gentiles include the 10 tribes. The 10 tribes were scattered amongst the nations as prophesied in Ephraim's blessing.

The Southern Kingdom got "scattered", hence they are the "dispersed of Judah". The Northern Kingdom was led away. Any who broke off and intermixed with the gentiles are numbered among the gentiles.

The terms used for these "other sheep", the Northern Kingdom, are "lost" and "separated".

And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.

I would submit that they are still lost and separated and that we still do not know of them, despite our pride that our science has discovered everything.

3 Nephi 21
1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;

He hasn’t given us this sign?

When I see I’m wrong I change….

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:22 pm Let’s break down the scripture that you think says that.

It's themed throughout the BoM, this is the time of the gentiles, we as nursing fathers and mothers bring the knowledge of the fathers to the House of Israel. Just as Jewish apostles brought the gospel to the gentiles, the gentiles then in turn do the same to the Jews and then to the whole House of Israel, which is a future event, by the way. We gentiles still have to wait for that light to break forth among us. (The light breaking forth is your sign)

2 Nephi 17
1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin, king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.

3 Nephi 21
1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;

We are the house of Israel per the BOM, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah!

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:44 pm 2 Nephi 17
1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin, king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.

3 Nephi 21
1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;

We are the house of Israel per the BOM, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah!

No Zion was established, and the House of Israel wasn't gathered. Judah is still dispersed, and the 10 tribes are still lost. Why? Because we failed. We tried to gather and form Zion, but we failed because we are gentiles. The only gentiles who gather and live as Zion are those who are the remnant who will be grafted to the House of Israel, and this happens during the marvelous work and wonder which is a future event.

We are not the House of Israel. We are gentiles.