LDS Freedom Forum

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 11:51 am

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:57 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:57 am

Who is a goyim?

Is the house of Israel, who is the lost 10 tribes a goyim?

Does the BOM say it’s less than the New Testament? Yes

Does the New Testament reference the Old Testament as law? Yes

There is no such thing as 'A GENTILE' - it is always plural as in a collective (tribe, nation) or multiple collectives.

Hebrew (Goy) - nation, people
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/1471.htm

Greek (Ethnos) - a race, a nation, the nations (as distinct from Israel)
https://biblehub.com/greek/1484.htm

NT
The Jews: The observant Jews who reject the Greek culture and language.
The Hellenists: The Jews who adopted the Greek culture and language.
The Nations: The Jews from the ten lost tribes.
The Strangers: Non-Jews who join themselves with the Jews."

The word "gentile" comes from the Latin translation: Gentilis (From gēns ("clan, tribe") + -īlis ("-ile")) originally meant a non-Roman, but neither GOI nor ETHNOS necessarily means non-Israel

Note: The Greek words ethne and ethnos, translated nations or gentiles, are the source of our English word, ethnic, signifying a blood-relative. They certainly do not mean 'heathen' or 'non-Israelite' as is popularly taught today.


The Gentiles include the 10 tribes. The 10 tribes were scattered amongst the nations as prophesied in Ephraim's blessing.

Genesis 48:19 And his father refused and said, “I know it, my son, I know it. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.”

Did I use gentile? I have brought up your discussion points (not as detailed) before, to deaf ears.

I used goyim for good reason…..

It is used by the house of Judah in reference to people who are not children of Abraham.

Even though we are “scattered” we are of Ephraim, thus we are of the house of Ephraim.

The Lord won’t show himself per the BOM to an aboriginal……

I was answering your questions for everyone else

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:51 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:44 pm 2 Nephi 17
1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin, king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.

3 Nephi 21
1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;

We are the house of Israel per the BOM, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah!

No Zion was established, and the House of Israel wasn't gathered. Judah is still dispersed, and the 10 tribes are still lost. Why? Because we failed. We tried to gather and form Zion, but we failed because we are gentiles. The only gentiles who gather and live as Zion are those who are the remnant who will be grafted to the House of Israel, and this happens during the marvelous work and wonder which is a future event.

We are not the House of Israel. We are gentiles.

Nope

Who coin “time of the gentiles” is it said verbatim in the scriptures?

Do you see who is in control of Europe?

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:23 pm Nope

Who coin “time of the gentiles” is it said verbatim in the scriptures?

Do you see who is in control of Europe?

Now we are right back to where we started, which is you not explaining yourself and me having no idea what you are saying.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:51 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:44 pm 2 Nephi 17
1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin, king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.

3 Nephi 21
1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;

We are the house of Israel per the BOM, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah!

No Zion was established, and the House of Israel wasn't gathered. Judah is still dispersed, and the 10 tribes are still lost. Why? Because we failed. We tried to gather and form Zion, but we failed because we are gentiles. The only gentiles who gather and live as Zion are those who are the remnant who will be grafted to the House of Israel, and this happens during the marvelous work and wonder which is a future event.

We are not the House of Israel. We are gentiles.

100% correct.

LDS Physician wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:22 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:51 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:44 pm 2 Nephi 17
1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin, king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.

3 Nephi 21
1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;

We are the house of Israel per the BOM, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah!

No Zion was established, and the House of Israel wasn't gathered. Judah is still dispersed, and the 10 tribes are still lost. Why? Because we failed. We tried to gather and form Zion, but we failed because we are gentiles. The only gentiles who gather and live as Zion are those who are the remnant who will be grafted to the House of Israel, and this happens during the marvelous work and wonder which is a future event.

We are not the House of Israel. We are gentiles.

100% correct.

Do you know why China towns exist?

Jeremiah 31
27 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

Parts of Judah has mixed in with Israel, Asians have mixed in with both of them and the last one, civil rights….

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:51 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:44 pm 2 Nephi 17
1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin, king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.

3 Nephi 21
1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;

We are the house of Israel per the BOM, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah!

No Zion was established, and the House of Israel wasn't gathered. Judah is still dispersed, and the 10 tribes are still lost. Why? Because we failed. We tried to gather and form Zion, but we failed because we are gentiles. The only gentiles who gather and live as Zion are those who are the remnant who will be grafted to the House of Israel, and this happens during the marvelous work and wonder which is a future event.

We are not the House of Israel. We are gentiles.

Zion was never going to happen with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Although, Zion was still offered to the early church movement.

Also (D&C 60) we are not Gentiles per se, but nevertheless we "are identified with the Gentiles." There is a lot more to this but I'll be somewhat brief here.

The scattering was not just the Jews. Israel, namely Ephraim, was mixed with the nations. (FYI Israel and Gentiles are sometimes one and the same in the scriptures because of the scattering)

It was in Ephraim's patriarchal blessing:
Genesis 48:19 And his father refused and said, “I know it, my son, I know it. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.”

Lehi and Nephi spoke understood this:
1 Nephi 10
12 Yea, even my father spake much concerning the Gentiles, and also concerning the house of Israel, that they should be compared like unto an olive tree, whose branches should be broken off and should be scattered upon all the face of the earth.
13 Wherefore, he said it must needs be that we should be led with one accord into the land of promise, unto the fulfilling of the word of the Lord, that we should be scattered upon all the face of the earth.

It was prophesied (see also Deuteronomy 4:23–27; 28:25, 37, 64; 1 Nephi 21:1; 22:3–4):
Leviticus 26
33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.

Ezekiel 37
21 “And say unto them, ‘Thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen whither they have gone, and will gather them on every side and bring them into their own land.
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be King to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

The marvelous work is separating the wheat and the tares:
1 Nephi 14
6 Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.
7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.


The Nations:
Deuteronomy 32
8. When the most High divided to the nations (H1471) their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

Exodus 1
5 And all the souls who came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls, for Joseph was in Egypt already.

Genesis 10
16. Dodanim. By these were the isles of the Gentiles (H1471) divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. (H1471)
20. These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations. (H1471)
31. These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations. (H1471)

the Testament of Naphtali 8:3-6
3 And do not forget the Lord your Alahayim, the Alahayim of your fathers; Who was chosen by our father Abraham when the nations were divided in the time of Phaleg.
4 For at that time the Lord, blessed be He, came down from His highest heavens, and brought down with Him seventy ministering angels, Michael at their head.
5 He commanded them to teach the seventy families which sprang from the loins of Noah seventy languages.
6 Forthwith the angels descended and did according to the command of their Creator. But the holy language, the Hebrew language, remained only in the house of Shem and Eber, and in the house of Abraham our father, who is one of their descendants.

Jasher 9:32
And Alahayim said to the seventy angels who stood foremost before him, to those who were near to him, saying, Come let us descend and confuse their tongues, that one man shall not understand the language of his neighbor, and they did so unto them

Jubilees 44:34
And in the land of Canaan two sons of Judah died, Er and Onan, and they had no children, and they children of Israel buried those who perished, and they were reckoned among the seventy Gentile nations.

Jubilees 16:16-18
16. And we returned in the seventh month, and found Sarah with child before us and we blessed him, and we announced to him all the things which had been decreed concerning him, that he should not die till he should beget six sons more, and should see (them) before he died; but (that) in Isaac should his name and seed be called:
17. And (that) all the seed of his sons should be Gentiles, and be reckoned with the Gentiles; but from the sons of Isaac one should become a holy seed, and should not be reckoned among the Gentiles.
18. For he should become the portion of the Most High, and all his seed had fallen into the possession of Alahayim, that it should be unto Ahayah a people for (His) possession above all nations and that it should become a kingdom and priests and a holy nation.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 8:12 am Or you could just entertain the idea that the BoM is true, lol.

All the early leaders were gentiles and as the article points out, there was no such thing as a first vision until the 1840's.

So, more Nauvoo doctrines that contradict the BoM.

You should read the article.

No mention of the pivotal event in church history until 20+ years after it happened? His own family was apparently unaware it happened. In any other context this would be considered fraudulent.

I agree read the article. I read this statement somewhere. "I hadn't known beforehand that a belief in Mormonism was so heavily dependent on ignorance."

LDS Physician wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 2:22 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:51 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:44 pm 2 Nephi 17
1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin, king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.

3 Nephi 21
1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;

We are the house of Israel per the BOM, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah!

No Zion was established, and the House of Israel wasn't gathered. Judah is still dispersed, and the 10 tribes are still lost. Why? Because we failed. We tried to gather and form Zion, but we failed because we are gentiles. The only gentiles who gather and live as Zion are those who are the remnant who will be grafted to the House of Israel, and this happens during the marvelous work and wonder which is a future event.

We are not the House of Israel. We are gentiles.

100% correct.

That is NOT true. Before and up to Jesus his covenant was with the house of Israel. This was defined by birthright. Some people could join, it was infrequent and required baptism and a knife for the males. Often some form of payment as I understand (like an initial tithe). However, after Jesus' death he sent the gospel to all the world. Then he used the term "Israel" to mean those to are baptized and follow him. I have posted links to these quotes from Jesus several times in the past on threads. so, "Israel" today are Christians. Perhaps also those with bloodlines but secondary at best. After the gentiles (Israel through adoption via baptism) it returns to the birthright, etc... first last, last first discussion. But for today, the gathering of Israel is baptizing people (mostly gentiles, but some others as well).

Ye do err in not knowing the scriptures my friend.

Second point I will make on here I have also made before. For any that have gone through a visitation of sorts (not vision in mind but visitation with heavenly being in the body), you will see a long path of illumination of what happened. It happens during a "quickening" or "translation" in "another sphere" or dimension or space. It is hard to explain. It takes time to comprehend what happened, perhaps, and I can testify to just shy of 15 years to get much or most. Along the way steps of knowledge seem to seep out. Initially you know it happened, and the main or single message. Later as things evolve, more detail comes through.

I surely see from my own experiences how Joseph's evolving story adds to my testimony that he was telling the truth. Hard to explain but when you learn something like this, that isn't documented and sifted, etc... but is what you experience. It does not detract but solidifies your (mine in this case) testimony.

BTW I know I spoke with god for a few minutes, yet to date, I can only recall 5 sentences/phrases. I know there is more. I pray for the time they are revealed. But those here would then think I'm just adding to my deception if I were to change my story via additional knowledge! I don't care as I know that god lives. Been there.

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 4:45 pm The scattering was not just the Jews. Israel, namely Ephraim, was mixed with the nations. (FYI Israel and Gentiles are sometimes one and the same in the scriptures because of the scattering)

It was in Ephraim's patriarchal blessing:
Genesis 48:19 And his father refused and said, “I know it, my son, I know it. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.”

I think I see what you are saying. You don't believe that the 10 tribes are still lost unto our knowledge of them, whereas I believe they are. I agree that they are made nations like the scriptures say, but just not nations we know of.

It is accurate as a general description to describe the House of Israel as scattered, but when separated as kingdoms I'm pretty sure it's only the southern kingdom that is described as being scattered and the northern kingdom as being lost. I could be wrong though. Thanks for taking the time to list all those scriptures. You rock!

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 12:55 am

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 4:45 pm The scattering was not just the Jews. Israel, namely Ephraim, was mixed with the nations. (FYI Israel and Gentiles are sometimes one and the same in the scriptures because of the scattering)

It was in Ephraim's patriarchal blessing:
Genesis 48:19 And his father refused and said, “I know it, my son, I know it. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.”

I think I see what you are saying. You don't believe that the 10 tribes are still lost unto our knowledge of them, whereas I believe they are. I agree that they are made nations like the scriptures say, but just not nations we know of.

It is accurate as a general description to describe the House of Israel as scattered, but when separated as kingdoms I'm pretty sure it's only the southern kingdom that is described as being scattered and the northern kingdom as being lost. I could be wrong though. Thanks for taking the time to list all those scriptures. You rock!

This is a great video presentation about it I just watched. Really interesting, though long. 2 hours.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 12:55 am

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 4:45 pm The scattering was not just the Jews. Israel, namely Ephraim, was mixed with the nations. (FYI Israel and Gentiles are sometimes one and the same in the scriptures because of the scattering)

It was in Ephraim's patriarchal blessing:
Genesis 48:19 And his father refused and said, “I know it, my son, I know it. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.”

I think I see what you are saying. You don't believe that the 10 tribes are still lost unto our knowledge of them, whereas I believe they are. I agree that they are made nations like the scriptures say, but just not nations we know of.

It is accurate as a general description to describe the House of Israel as scattered, but when separated as kingdoms I'm pretty sure it's only the southern kingdom that is described as being scattered and the northern kingdom as being lost. I could be wrong though. Thanks for taking the time to list all those scriptures. You rock!

I think there are a remnant Lost 10, and then there are ones who were taken to "Assyria" and from their were scattered.

We know that the list 10 will return from the North with writings from their prophets, same that their return will be spectacular

What do you think? Room for both the scattered and the lost?

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 5:19 am I think there are a remnant Lost 10, and then there are ones who were taken to "Assyria" and from their were scattered.

We know that the list 10 will return from the North with writings from their prophets, same that their return will be spectacular

What do you think? Room for both the scattered and the lost?

Yes, there were very likely some who got separated from the main body somehow. I've just never seen a scripture verse that references the 10 as scattered. Lost. Yes. Separated. Yes. But then again, I might just be ignorant of the verses.

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 5:19 am I think there are a remnant Lost 10, and then there are ones who were taken to "Assyria" and from their were scattered.

We know that the list 10 will return from the North with writings from their prophets, same that their return will be spectacular

What do you think? Room for both the scattered and the lost?

So, I have corrected myself.

When Jacob/Israel is blessing Ephraim and Manasseh he places the name of Israel upon them.

The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

The House of Israel initially referred to all the tribes, but when the Kingdoms split around the time of Isaiah, he and all the major prophets thereafter referred to the Northern Kingdom as the House of Israel (because of the above blessing) and the Southern Kingdom was the House of Judah.

So, this Ezekiel scripture is a good example of the House of Israel being described as "scattered" and "dispersed".

Ezekiel 36 17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

CaptainM wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:44 am A shout-out is definitely due to the author of this post:
https://bookofmormonism.com/2023/09/27/ ... st-vision/

Your thoughts?

"the Mormon Godhead. Is it Trinitarian, Binitarian, Modalistic? Monotheistic, polytheistic or henotheistic?"

the answer is yes

Gileadi teaches that the House of Israel is 1.The Jews- Southern Kingdom. 2. The Lost 10 tribes - Northern Kingdom. 3. Lehi’s descendants- Joseph or Ephraim and Manasseh.
The Latter Day Saints are defined as Gentiles although they are the intermixing of Lost tribes and goyim.
Book of Mormon title page says:
“To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—“
By way of the Gentile indicating Joseph Smith and other assisting him. We are the Gentiles although a special subset of gentiles.
It seems most LDS believe we are the House of Israel thereby dodging the condemnation heaped upon the Gentiles who will reject the fulness of the gospel(Book of Mormon). We love to shift that condemnation onto groups of people who have never had the Book of Mormon to reject. (Protestants , etc.)

Who are the Gentiles? https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/b ... 0498633057

Who is the House of Israel?https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/b ... 0498633053

OK, looking back at the original question, it seems to look akin to this---
1st Vision vs. Book of Mormon

As to the First Vision that Joseph Smith, jr. had, there are at least at least a minimum of 6 variants, probably much more. However, Richard Howard, a recent RLDS-CoC Church Historian submitted an article published in 'Restoration Studies 1' Sesquicentrnniel Edition (1980 PB) on pp.95-117.
BX8674.A454 / Dewey 289.3'3
ISBN 0-8309-0292-9

The 6 he shares are on pp.97-106. His examination of them is the rest of the pages of the chapter or section. I would have to go with "D/E/F" or the 6th one that Richard shared. These 3 make note that two personages came down in the pillar of light or flame, not just one as noted in the other 3 versions.

"D" & "E" make reference that the 2 personages "exactly resembled each other in their features and/or likeness". "D" uses "and", while "E" uses "or". "F' shares that Joseph prayed "vocally". In "C", it shares that "my mouth was opened" & "my tongue was loosed".

Note the odd statement in "D"- "When it first came upon him, it produced a peculiar sensation throughout his whole system [aka body & mind] ...".

By now you see that by studying out each variant, you can get a much larger picture & understanding. I recall once that Dirk (a High Priest who had the wisdom of Socrates & was my mentor from 1986 thru 1988), he set up a sermon involving several among the congregation. He had chosen a certain passage in the NT of eye witnesses that claimed to have witnessed an event. Yet even though there were some overlaps, there were also many different other things mentioned. He explained that this was due from different perspectives, not only of the person's views, but also their position (location) at the event, each seeing & such from their place at the given moment.

Now, also what comes into play, is that we all perceive things in different manners. It is according to where we are at in our present moment of understanding. As time goes on, we tend to digress on some details, yet on the other hand, we tend to stress or share differently. Perhaps from time as to gaining more insight.

I can share some insights you may not know of. Joseph had access to the NAME/WORD & as Alma (in the BoM) shares, he was experimenting with its "vibration" or "vocally sounding/reverberation" of IT. He finally hit the correct harmonics, and by doing so, opened the bridge to what is call the Fohat/Fohot (the indescribable or inexpressible Light) of the LOGOS or GOSPEL (God Spell). He had to initiate it vocally. When this occurs, your body & mind reacts in an interesting way (peculiar as noted). You actually become tuned in with the Creation (Light/Love).

You will notice that "contact" was made, as two personages come forth. One projects forth as Father, telling Joseph to hear his beloved Son (in "F"). These two were actually Michael (the Father) & Jesus (the Son). One expression renders this as an equation. You are familiar with Adam-ondi-Ahman I suppose. Actually there are several other things hidden in that variant. Michael is what might be referred to as the HGA (Holy Guardian Angel, OverSoul, or Higher Self). Jesus is a projection or incarnation of Michael.

It seems that this encounter was also had by another back in Joseph's day. It seems a Benjamin Abbot shared in the 1800s his theophany or vision of seeing both Father & Son also, but then noting they were Jesus & the Ancient of Days (Michael) that occurred on Monday October 12, 1772. This was shared in 13 editions from 1801-1844. D. Michael Quinn shares this in his book 'Early Mormonism & the Magic World View' (1987 HB) on page 13. Let's see if I can find it in his 1998 PB Revised & Enlarged Edition of this book. OK, it is on p.15 along with several others.

Also, in "A" in seems Joseph scratched thru the word pillar of "fire" & chose pillar of "light" instead to describe how he saw or viewed the background of his vision. "C" uses "pillar of flame". But one account ("D"), he thought that the light was so intense that it might actually set trees & leaves afire. That is interesting, as it rings similar to Moses description of the Burning Bush. Both Joseph & Moses state that they expected things to be consumed (as if by fire), but it was not.


As to the other portion, the Book of Mormon, it seems to be once again from perspective that is being misunderstood or that one needs to study it out further. I am sure 20 people can be asked a question, such as what is a Gentile & while you may get many overlaps, you might just have some 20 odd variances.


For instance, as per the Book of Revelation in the NT, it is shared that John (the Divine) had this grand vision & put it in writing. Sadly people think it was John the Beloved who had the vision. But that is not so. It was John the Baptist, who was also Beloved & was "the Seer par excellence". Look up a truly large dictionary to see what the description of "divine" really implies. And John the Beloved was no seer or prophet. Even though some might recall it notes one of the 12 apostles of the lamb, legends have come down that due to Judas' death or suicide, that during the Lord's Supper, there were only 11 but that John the Baptist sat in (invisibly) for Judas until another was appointed

And by the Book of Mormon, you know that Nephi also had this grand vision, but was told it was reserved for another. John the Baptist can also be called an apostle of the Lamb. John had this vision while imprisoned in jail for over a year. About the only way to escape, is an out of body experience. And it even starts off sharing that he was "in the spirit" on the Isle of Patmos not physically. After John the Baptist had this grand vision & recorded it, he sent his disciples to Jesus asking if Jesus was to fulfill all (of what John had seen & heard), or was yet another to come, meaning would Jesus come yet again to fulfill everything that was revealed to John.

What you don't know, as some people think that Revelation was describing events right after Jesus' sojourn back some 2000 years ago, is that it still holds keys for the future. Nostradamus shares that he too was shown this grand vision. So if it was fulfilled, why would it be so important to show it to Nostradamus of the 1500s?

CaptainM wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:44 am Both can't be right... Which do you choose?

Here is what Gordon B. Hinckley had to say about this subject:
“Our whole strength rests on the validity of that vision.
It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud.
If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens.”
—Gordon B. Hinckley on Joseph Smith’s First Vision, October 2002 General Conference

I wonder what kind of faith in Christ he had.

When I was beginning to learn about "Mormonism" so many years ago, I knew that the Book of Mormon was what it purported to be. My heart was lit up with the Spirit of the Lord. Truth resonated down to my fingertips.

Then I got to the Pearl of Great Price. Something about the "First Vision" I had to force myself to believe. It became an intellectual struggle for me, and of course I caved-in and went with the crowd. I talked myself into believing Joseph Smith was a prophet. I went with the narrative for all so too long. Why didn't I listen to the Spirit's voice?

I am so grateful to my heavenly Father for freeing me from priestcraft and showing me why things didn't seem right so long ago. As I prepare for the judgement seat as best as a terribly flawed person like me can, I want to be judged on my faith, repentance, and keeping of the commandments and doctrine of Christ, and not fables and lies.

I would challenge anyone reading this post to hold judgement, and have the courage to read the post associated with the below link.

A shout-out is definitely due to the author of this post:
https://bookofmormonism.com/2023/09/27/ ... st-vision/

Your thoughts?

Wow, that article is l-o-n-g and full of holes. A little more research would have gone a long way. To
dispel the main part of it quickly, I refer to the Lord's law of witnesses (2 Corinthians 13:1). So, the latter day witnesses fulfilling this law were established concerning the Godhead by the time of the Kirtland era in a number of visions given to a number of the saints. Here is one of them, attested to by Zebedee Coltrin and John Murdock.
The Father and the Son appear to members of The School of the Prophets
Kirtland, Ohio 1833

Zebedee Coltrin, a member of the School of the Prophets records:
Zebedee Coltrin 1804-1877

At one of these meetings after the organization of the school, (the school being organized on the 23rd of January, 1833) when we were all together, Joseph having given instructions, and while engaged in silent prayer, kneeling, with our hands uplifted each one praying in silence, no one whispered above his breath, a personage walked through the room from east to west, and Joseph asked if we saw him. I saw him and suppose the others did and Joseph answered “that is Jesus, the Son of God, our elder brother.” Afterward Joseph told us to resume our former position in prayer, which we did. Another person came through; he was surrounded as with a flame of fire. experienced a sensation that it might destroy the tabernacle as it was of consuming fire of great brightness. The Prophet Joseph said this was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I saw Him.
The Newel K. Whitney store - Kirtland, Ohio

This event is corroborated by John Murdock, missionary companion of Zebedee Coltrin at the time and also present at the meeting.https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/01/hous ... n?lang=eng
This article is full of the experiences at the Newel K. Whitney and store including the School of the Prophets upstairs. By the way, the Savior alone is recorded as visiting the saints a least forty times in the Kirtland era. The School of the Prophets testimony also contains a clearer description of The Father as seen there. I have posted that on another thread on this forum.

Be careful of false witnesses.

By their fruits shall you know them.

Do you really believe polygamists, counterfeiters, muderers, lying, etc.?
?

Evolving stories are fraudulent in every case. The differences between the first vision accounts are significant and can't be brushed under the rug with such nonsense as "differences prove it's true". Pure popycock. Apologetics are the bane of truth.
Either you believe the Book of Mormon and what is written therein or you don't.
Witnesses of something contrary to what's written in the Book of Mormon ought to be suspected to say the least.

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 8:43 pm Joseph answered “that is Jesus, the Son of God, our elder brother.”

If Joseph did say this in 1833, you can rest assured he was already fallen. The Book of Mormon teaches that he was God from the beginning, so your little baby spirit in baby diapers from the beginning and then being given Godhood is not going to cut it.

Why do you let supposed teachings of JS contradict the BoM? Did not JS himself teach that the scriptures are our standard and that even he himself could not contradict them?

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2023, 11:52 am

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 8:43 pm Joseph answered “that is Jesus, the Son of God, our elder brother.”

If Joseph did say this in 1833, you can rest assured he was already fallen. The Book of Mormon teaches that he was God from the beginning, so your little baby spirit in baby diapers from the beginning and then being given Godhood is not going to cut it.

Why do you let supposed teachings of JS contradict the BoM? Did not JS himself teach that the scriptures are our standard and that even he himself could not contradict them?

Come let us reason together (seems I have heard that from a reliable sacred source lol). The is a reason why one is called the Father, and one is called the Son. There is a reason the Savior referred to his Father and our Father. There is a reason why at the baptism of Jesus Christ this was heard from the heavens "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". Six times in the Bible alone, Jesus the Christ is referred to as the firstborn of the Father.

This very much applies here.

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2023, 1:07 pm Come let us reason together (seems I have heard that from a reliable sacred source lol). The is a reason why one is called the Father, and one is called the Son. There is a reason the Savior referred to his Father and our Father. There is a reason why at the baptism of Jesus Christ this was heard from the heavens "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". Six times in the Bible alone, Jesus the Christ is referred to as the firstborn of the Father.

While I don't agree with your position, it was only the "elder brother" nonsense I was addressing. If he was God from the beginning, he can't be our older brother. We start off at the bottom, whereas he didn't, at least according to the BoM. He was always God. What you are saying is that we can become God's and we'll someday make scriptures that lie by saying we were always Gods.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2023, 2:50 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2023, 1:07 pm Come let us reason together (seems I have heard that from a reliable sacred source lol). The is a reason why one is called the Father, and one is called the Son. There is a reason the Savior referred to his Father and our Father. There is a reason why at the baptism of Jesus Christ this was heard from the heavens "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". Six times in the Bible alone, Jesus the Christ is referred to as the firstborn of the Father.

While I don't agree with your position, it was only the "elder brother" nonsense I was addressing. If he was God from the beginning, he can't be our older brother. We start off at the bottom, whereas he didn't, at least according to the BoM. He was always God. What you are saying is that we can become God's and we'll someday make scriptures that lie by saying we were always Gods.

Alright Shawn, if you will now answer my question, I will go more in depth on what you are saying. And my question is, how and when did God create you? Also, it helps if you want to assert a scriptural claim, you give the scripture you are referring to (in your case Book of M.).

CaptainM wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:44 am Both can't be right... Which do you choose?

Here is what Gordon B. Hinckley had to say about this subject:
“Our whole strength rests on the validity of that vision.
It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud.
If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens.”
—Gordon B. Hinckley on Joseph Smith’s First Vision, October 2002 General Conference

I wonder what kind of faith in Christ he had.

When I was beginning to learn about "Mormonism" so many years ago, I knew that the Book of Mormon was what it purported to be. My heart was lit up with the Spirit of the Lord. Truth resonated down to my fingertips.

Then I got to the Pearl of Great Price. Something about the "First Vision" I had to force myself to believe. It became an intellectual struggle for me, and of course I caved-in and went with the crowd. I talked myself into believing Joseph Smith was a prophet. I went with the narrative for all so too long. Why didn't I listen to the Spirit's voice?

I am so grateful to my heavenly Father for freeing me from priestcraft and showing me why things didn't seem right so long ago. As I prepare for the judgement seat as best as a terribly flawed person like me can, I want to be judged on my faith, repentance, and keeping of the commandments and doctrine of Christ, and not fables and lies.

I would challenge anyone reading this post to hold judgement, and have the courage to read the post associated with the below link.

A shout-out is definitely due to the author of this post:
https://bookofmormonism.com/2023/09/27/ ... st-vision/

Your thoughts?

I read the whole article and found it very compelling. I can't believe I never notice those things before. Very interesting observations that I will have to ponder on. Thank you very much for sharing it.