LDS Freedom Forum

Telavian wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:55 am

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:44 am But what's the point? If God doesn't need a body, why would we?

Certainly true. I think that we are resurrected to mortality and then eventually to immortality without a body.

Why would God need a body? Are there things that he can't do unless he is physical?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 8:00 am I get the sense that you think a perfected physical body is limiting in some way.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 8:10 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 8:00 am I get the sense that you think a perfected physical body is limiting in some way.

Yes I think so. A physical body has to exist in a physical realm. God is above and outside of all physical things.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 8:20 am Unless... all things are physical, in one way or another. Everything is energy, frequency, or vibration.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 9:23 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 8:20 am Unless... all things are physical, in one way or another. Everything is energy, frequency, or vibration.

I can agree with that. I think at a certain level you escape the boundaries of a physical world and God lives in that realm continuously.
Of course, he could have a body that transforms somehow. However I think it is more likely he doesn't have a body until he needs to so that he can exist in our world.

If I visited a race of 2D people, then I would assume a 2D form to communicate with them.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 9:23 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 8:20 am Unless... all things are physical, in one way or another. Everything is energy, frequency, or vibration.

I can agree with that. I think at a certain level you escape the boundaries of a physical world and God lives in that realm continuously.
Of course, he could have a body that transforms somehow. However I think it is more likely he doesn't have a body until he needs to so that he can exist in our world.

If I visited a race of 2D people, then I would assume a 2D form to communicate with them.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:55 am

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:44 am But what's the point? If God doesn't need a body, why would we?

Certainly true. I think that we are resurrected to mortality and then eventually to immortality without a body.

Why would God need a body? Are there things that he can't do unless he is physical?

Telavian wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:10 am
I don't understand why we would want eternal marriage. In a trillion years am I going to have a trillion wives with a trillion kids?
The whole idea of heaven is really just an elevate earth which doesn't make sense.

God doesn't have a body and has no need to have intercourse to create spirit children. I really feel like we have just made false gods up like the Greeks.

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:35 am
The idea of the sealing power has been perverted. It is not found in the temples in the sealing rooms.

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 10:54 am

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:35 am
The idea of the sealing power has been perverted. It is not found in the temples in the sealing rooms.

I accept that the formal teachings of Q15 today are not 100% in line with Joseph's teachings. However, as far as your statements of the temple. it is your opinion, teachings of men not even mingled with scripture. And you are wrong. But, since you're not willing to discuss it with facts, just opinions, no more to discuss here, pearls and all.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 2:38 pm…Notice how instead of quoting scripture, they quote themselves…

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 10:47 am It isn't possible to discuss exaltation and the nature of god with non-LDS. Some can, I don't have that basis. So, good day.

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 11:28 am
You have the wrong guy, I reference scripture and speak in specifics.

Do you think that the sealing power is given by God or man?

The examples in the scriptures give evidence that or it is only given by God.

Perhaps it is called the sealing power because one only receives it when they have been sealed upon their foreheads.

Revelation
7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.

22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

And who were marked with the seal/name of God on their foreheads?

8:14 ...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 12:05 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 10:47 am It isn't possible to discuss exaltation and the nature of god with non-LDS. Some can, I don't have that basis. So, good day.

You are claiming I am not LDS, thus can't discuss things with me, so you don't have to back up anything you say with scriptures.
I was born and raised in the LDS church. Thanks for asking.

"Trillion" is obviously an exaggeration. However if God had intercourse to create everyone that ever was created for this earth then he had to do it about 120 billion times. He may have a very small group of wives that work tirelessly as baby factories however that would be quite unlikely. If had had 50 wives then each wife would have about 2.5 billion children. To make this even remotely realistic he would need about a billion wives where each would give birth to about 100 kids a piece.

Do you see a problem with all this? Of course the response is, "we don't know how it all works", which is true. However you are claiming certain things that if true have implications.

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 4:24 pm I didn't say you were LDS not to engage. I said it because you don't believe any LDS doctrines. The primary being god has a body! Then you don't believe in exaltation! You don't accept the LDS leaders or Joseph's teachings. Given these things you cannot claim to be LDS, not by baptism or rights or in the book, but by teachings and discussions. there are frankly, LDS here that don't believe one or two of these things. but to not accept any of them, well, then discussing LDS theology is a waste of time. I said it and it is true. This is after all the "LDS FF". So, one can and should assume most accept the predominant LDS doctrines and teachings.

I'm happy to engage with anyone in discussion. BUT there must be a common basis for understanding and terminology, else there is no communication. And frankly matters of exaltation build upon basis LDS principles. If you don't buy god has a body, If you believe in eastern religious lore where perfection requires no body or physical form................................................ there is no discussion that can follow about exaltation or the sealing of man and woman as there would be no man and no woman in your theology.

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 4:18 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 11:28 am
You have the wrong guy, I reference scripture and speak in specifics.

Do you think that the sealing power is given by God or man?

The examples in the scriptures give evidence that or it is only given by God.

Perhaps it is called the sealing power because one only receives it when they have been sealed upon their foreheads.

Revelation
7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.

22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

And who were marked with the seal/name of God on their foreheads?

8:14 ...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

NO I don't have the wrong person. Satan can quote scriptures and misinterpret them. You don't even seem to comprehend the OP title. The question is on the LDS temple sealing and that is the marriage. Not about be sealed in their heads, hides, to destruction, and on and on. The word is used for many things. Elijah had the power to seal up the heavens, in his case heavens was rain and storms, etc... Here the question is about sealing a man and wife together.

You ask if I see god or man having the sealing power? Silly question. I ask you back does god have the priesthood? .... if you said yes then you don't understand the definition of priesthood. Because priesthood is god's power given to men. He doesn't need the priesthood, he is god, he has the power, no one needs to give it to him. Same answer her. God has the power to seal. The father has given it to the son. The son has given it to the Holy Ghost. So, whenever two are sealed together it is by the Holy Ghost, even if Jesus or John the Baptist were the ones doing it in person, or an angel, or a man. God gives men the power to "administer" the sealing ordinances. He does NOT give them the power to seal any more than he gave Elijah the power to make it rain. He gave him the power to command the elements, knowing he would only do so when god approved. Same-same.

So today (IMO), I don't see the Q15 with the power to seal anyone or anything. I never said I did. I see god giving them the power to administer the ordinances, including sealing a couple in eternal marriage. You need that priesthood to administer the ordinance. However, just like baptism, which is incomplete with just water, the HSoP or HG or Jesus himself acting as HSoP must seal up the ordinance. He can and will only do that when his father tells him to do so. As he "only does his father's will". So, when the father says a couple is to become husband and wife for eternity, they are sealed up by his power via the HSoP. Seems simple.

But, my point above is that the father cannot seal up someone that does not have the ordinance. any more than he can give you the baptism of fire w/o baptism of water. That would make Jesus a liar. And he isn't a liar.

One more point. He gave Joseph the power to bind on earth and seal. It doesn't say what the range of Joseph's power was, we can only speculate. It may or may not have gone beyond administrative sealing powers, the verses aren't clear to me. Unlike the Q15, I don't see his sealing power being passed down, like Elijah and Elisha, it must be given each time. so don't put words in my mouth that I said the PSR's can seal up whatever they like and have it stick.

It seems sealing to any reward requires both parties to enter a covenant. It requires a physical token by one with administrative rights. It requires the person to petition the Lord via the ordinance. Then it requires the Lord to seal it up or make it permanent by the HSoP. It is clear this is the case with baptism we do water, he does the fire/HG. Same is said in the temple marriage sealing. I put the words in the text. See D&C 132, it even says HSoP in each occasion.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 4:35 pm

I see. So someone has to agree with you on essentially everything to have a discussion?

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 5:01 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 4:18 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 11:28 am
You have the wrong guy, I reference scripture and speak in specifics.

Do you think that the sealing power is given by God or man?

The examples in the scriptures give evidence that or it is only given by God.

Perhaps it is called the sealing power because one only receives it when they have been sealed upon their foreheads.

Revelation
7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.

22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

And who were marked with the seal/name of God on their foreheads?

8:14 ...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

NO I don't have the wrong person. Satan can quote scriptures and misinterpret them. You don't even seem to comprehend the OP title. The question is on the LDS temple sealing and that is the marriage. Not about be sealed in their heads, hides, to destruction, and on and on. The word is used for many things. Elijah had the power to seal up the heavens, in his case heavens was rain and storms, etc... Here the question is about sealing a man and wife together.

You ask if I see god or man having the sealing power? Silly question. I ask you back does god have the priesthood? .... if you said yes then you don't understand the definition of priesthood. Because priesthood is god's power given to men. He doesn't need the priesthood, he is god, he has the power, no one needs to give it to him. Same answer her. God has the power to seal. The father has given it to the son. The son has given it to the Holy Ghost. So, whenever two are sealed together it is by the Holy Ghost, even if Jesus or John the Baptist were the ones doing it in person, or an angel, or a man. God gives men the power to "administer" the sealing ordinances. He does NOT give them the power to seal any more than he gave Elijah the power to make it rain. He gave him the power to command the elements, knowing he would only do so when god approved. Same-same.

So today (IMO), I don't see the Q15 with the power to seal anyone or anything. I never said I did. I see god giving them the power to administer the ordinances, including sealing a couple in eternal marriage. You need that priesthood to administer the ordinance. However, just like baptism, which is incomplete with just water, the HSoP or HG or Jesus himself acting as HSoP must seal up the ordinance. He can and will only do that when his father tells him to do so. As he "only does his father's will". So, when the father says a couple is to become husband and wife for eternity, they are sealed up by his power via the HSoP. Seems simple.

But, my point above is that the father cannot seal up someone that does not have the ordinance. any more than he can give you the baptism of fire w/o baptism of water. That would make Jesus a liar. And he isn't a liar.

One more point. He gave Joseph the power to bind on earth and seal. It doesn't say what the range of Joseph's power was, we can only speculate. It may or may not have gone beyond administrative sealing powers, the verses aren't clear to me. Unlike the Q15, I don't see his sealing power being passed down, like Elijah and Elisha, it must be given each time. so don't put words in my mouth that I said the PSR's can seal up whatever they like and have it stick.

It seems sealing to any reward requires both parties to enter a covenant. It requires a physical token by one with administrative rights. It requires the person to petition the Lord via the ordinance. Then it requires the Lord to seal it up or make it permanent by the HSoP. It is clear this is the case with baptism we do water, he does the fire/HG. Same is said in the temple marriage sealing. I put the words in the text. See D&C 132, it even says HSoP in each occasion.

132 is a hodge podge of writings and speeches by Joseph and Hyrum pieced together with some false doctrines by those in "secret chambers". If you believe that lying for the Lord is a thing, then you are truly deceived.

Ezekiel 37
31 ¶ Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

D&C 22 (April 16, 1830)
1 Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.
2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.
4 Wherefore, enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen.

“Enter In By The Way” (2 Nephi 32:5)
"…I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ;...Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken FAITH in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ (FAITH), having a perfect brightness of HOPE, and a love of God and of all men (CHARITY, to love God, and thy neighbor, become Zion). Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life." (2 Nephi 31:2,17,19,20)

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Besides what you are calling the sealing power, is not the authority (the true sealing power) that was given to Enoch, Melchizedek, Elijah, Nephi son of Helaman, and others, as recorded in scripture.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 4:35 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 4:24 pm I didn't say you were LDS not to engage. I said it because you don't believe any LDS doctrines. The primary being god has a body! Then you don't believe in exaltation! You don't accept the LDS leaders or Joseph's teachings. Given these things you cannot claim to be LDS, not by baptism or rights or in the book, but by teachings and discussions. there are frankly, LDS here that don't believe one or two of these things. but to not accept any of them, well, then discussing LDS theology is a waste of time. I said it and it is true. This is after all the "LDS FF". So, one can and should assume most accept the predominant LDS doctrines and teachings.

I'm happy to engage with anyone in discussion. BUT there must be a common basis for understanding and terminology, else there is no communication. And frankly matters of exaltation build upon basis LDS principles. If you don't buy god has a body, If you believe in eastern religious lore where perfection requires no body or physical form................................................ there is no discussion that can follow about exaltation or the sealing of man and woman as there would be no man and no woman in your theology.

I see. So someone has to agree with you on essentially everything to have a discussion?

I do agree that having a discussion when there is a large overlap of consensus is easier. However, I whole heartedly disagree that someone needs a belief in the tangibility of God to discuss LDS beliefs.

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 11:12 am This is just Duke's way. I use to enjoy our discussions, but he has gotten more feisty and often uses caps and absolute statements now. Hard to have a discussion that way.

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 10:05 am

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 5:01 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 4:18 pm

NO I don't have the wrong person. Satan can quote scriptures and misinterpret them. You don't even seem to comprehend the OP title. The question is on the LDS temple sealing and that is the marriage. Not about be sealed in their heads, hides, to destruction, and on and on. The word is used for many things. Elijah had the power to seal up the heavens, in his case heavens was rain and storms, etc... Here the question is about sealing a man and wife together.

You ask if I see god or man having the sealing power? Silly question. I ask you back does god have the priesthood? .... if you said yes then you don't understand the definition of priesthood. Because priesthood is god's power given to men. He doesn't need the priesthood, he is god, he has the power, no one needs to give it to him. Same answer her. God has the power to seal. The father has given it to the son. The son has given it to the Holy Ghost. So, whenever two are sealed together it is by the Holy Ghost, even if Jesus or John the Baptist were the ones doing it in person, or an angel, or a man. God gives men the power to "administer" the sealing ordinances. He does NOT give them the power to seal any more than he gave Elijah the power to make it rain. He gave him the power to command the elements, knowing he would only do so when god approved. Same-same.

So today (IMO), I don't see the Q15 with the power to seal anyone or anything. I never said I did. I see god giving them the power to administer the ordinances, including sealing a couple in eternal marriage. You need that priesthood to administer the ordinance. However, just like baptism, which is incomplete with just water, the HSoP or HG or Jesus himself acting as HSoP must seal up the ordinance. He can and will only do that when his father tells him to do so. As he "only does his father's will". So, when the father says a couple is to become husband and wife for eternity, they are sealed up by his power via the HSoP. Seems simple.

But, my point above is that the father cannot seal up someone that does not have the ordinance. any more than he can give you the baptism of fire w/o baptism of water. That would make Jesus a liar. And he isn't a liar.

One more point. He gave Joseph the power to bind on earth and seal. It doesn't say what the range of Joseph's power was, we can only speculate. It may or may not have gone beyond administrative sealing powers, the verses aren't clear to me. Unlike the Q15, I don't see his sealing power being passed down, like Elijah and Elisha, it must be given each time. so don't put words in my mouth that I said the PSR's can seal up whatever they like and have it stick.

It seems sealing to any reward requires both parties to enter a covenant. It requires a physical token by one with administrative rights. It requires the person to petition the Lord via the ordinance. Then it requires the Lord to seal it up or make it permanent by the HSoP. It is clear this is the case with baptism we do water, he does the fire/HG. Same is said in the temple marriage sealing. I put the words in the text. See D&C 132, it even says HSoP in each occasion.

132 is a hodge podge of writings and speeches by Joseph and Hyrum pieced together with some false doctrines by those in "secret chambers". If you believe that lying for the Lord is a thing, then you are truly deceived.

Ezekiel 37
31 ¶ Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

D&C 22 (April 16, 1830)
1 Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.
2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.
4 Wherefore, enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen.

“Enter In By The Way” (2 Nephi 32:5)
"…I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ;...Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken FAITH in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ (FAITH), having a perfect brightness of HOPE, and a love of God and of all men (CHARITY, to love God, and thy neighbor, become Zion). Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life." (2 Nephi 31:2,17,19,20)

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Besides what you are calling the sealing power, is not the authority (the true sealing power) that was given to Enoch, Melchizedek, Elijah, Nephi son of Helaman, and others, as recorded in scripture.

all the scriptures you posted here are true. But, they are focused on salvation, not exaltation. Truth is at many levels, many laws, many mansions, etc...

ransomme wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 12:18 pm
Interesting...you turn a whoredom into the method required to reach the highest portion of the Kingdom.

The Lord's advice is to turn away from this death in your heart, this "iniquity; [you] understand not the scriptures, for [you] seek to excuse them in committing whoredoms..."

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 9:46 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 12:18 pm
Interesting...you turn a whoredom into the method required to reach the highest portion of the Kingdom.

The Lord's advice is to turn away from this death in your heart, this "iniquity; [you] understand not the scriptures, for [you] seek to excuse them in committing whoredoms..."

Explain how I am a whoremonger? I think you're a bit sick with such a comment. I've never committed adultery or had sexual relations with anyone but my wife at the time. Yet you claim such?

ransomme wrote: ↑October 1st, 2023, 1:01 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 9:46 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑September 30th, 2023, 12:18 pm
Interesting...you turn a whoredom into the method required to reach the highest portion of the Kingdom.

The Lord's advice is to turn away from this death in your heart, this "iniquity; [you] understand not the scriptures, for [you] seek to excuse them in committing whoredoms..."

Explain how I am a whoremonger? I think you're a bit sick with such a comment. I've never committed adultery or had sexual relations with anyone but my wife at the time. Yet you claim such?

Duke I assume that you are a faithful monogamous husband in deed and action. I didn't say that you are a whoremonger. I said that you believe that the whoredom of polygamy is required as Celestial law to obtain the highest of its echelons.

Don't worry, you are not alone. We have so been there.

Luke 12
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Matthew 5
27¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit [whoredoms]:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever [believeth that the abomination of polygamy is Celestial Kingdom law] hath committed [whoredoms] already in his heart