LDS Freedom Forum

Luke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 7:32 am The Fullness of the Gospel of the Son of God, yes. The Fullness of the Gospel of the Father? (See 3 Nephi 16). No. That was only given to us in Nauvoo by the Prophet Joseph Smith.

“The Calling of The Church of Christ is to Preach the First Principles of the Gospel, the Gospel of Christ, and those Principles having to do with the Doctrine of Salvation — while the Church of the Firstborn is to Preach ‘THE GOSPEL OF THE FATHER’ which is the Celestial Doctrine which pertains to EXALTATION.” — Fred C. Collier (Doctrinal Teachings of Patriarch Fred C. Collier page cxxxi)

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 11:31 pm So, let's see what the temple sealing claims to be. The OP has two questions really. First, what is a temple sealing according to LDS. and Second, do you accept that or think something else. I'm documenting the first.

What is below was linked to a while back on the forum as pre-1990 sealing ceremony. It has really three parts. The first is the husband promising to be a faithful husband. The second is the wife promising to be a faithful wife. These are here to ensure the marriage is legitimate and legal. See the words. Things like own free will, take each other as spouses, promise to be "honorable" according to norms in society (none spelled out, but assumed). Etc....

Part three is about eternity and celestial promises and sealing power.

Part 1: Brother X, do you take Sister Y by the right hand and receive her unto yourself to be your lawful and wedded wife for time and all eternity, with a covenant and promise that you will observe and keep all the laws, rites, and ordinances pertaining to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses of your own free will and choice?

Part 2: Sister Y do you take Brother X by the right hand and give yourself to him to be his lawful and wedded wife, and for him to be your lawful and wedded husband, for time and all eternity, with a covenant and promise that you will observe and keep all the laws, rites and ordinances pertaining to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses of your own free will and choice?

Part 3: By virtue of the Holy Priesthood and the authority vested in me, I pronounce you Brother X, and Sister Y, legally and lawfully husband and wife for time and all eternity, and I seal upon you the blessings of the holy resurrection with power to come forth in the morning of the first resurrection clothed in glory, immortality and eternal lives, and I seal upon you the blessings of kingdoms, thrones, principalities, powers, dominions and exaltations, with all the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and say unto you: be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth that you may have joy and rejoicing in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. All these blessings, together with all the blessings appertaining unto the New and Everlasting Covenant, I seal upon you by virtue of the Holy Priesthood, through your faithfulness, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.

We see the simple promise of an eternal partnership. and Eternal increase. But only if you are faithful. Only if it is sealed up by Holy Spirit of Promise.

It means that if you achieve this and get sealed up by HSoP, you will become gods. I mean, gods are celestial beings/couples that have eternal increase. that is the "spirits" or "intelligences" flow unto them to become celestial offspring and "do so without compulsory means for ever more".

Show me that in any other religion than LDS ( or a JS off shoot)!

Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 7:53 am

Luke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 7:32 am The Fullness of the Gospel of the Son of God, yes. The Fullness of the Gospel of the Father? (See 3 Nephi 16). No. That was only given to us in Nauvoo by the Prophet Joseph Smith.

“The Calling of The Church of Christ is to Preach the First Principles of the Gospel, the Gospel of Christ, and those Principles having to do with the Doctrine of Salvation — while the Church of the Firstborn is to Preach ‘THE GOSPEL OF THE FATHER’ which is the Celestial Doctrine which pertains to EXALTATION.” — Fred C. Collier (Doctrinal Teachings of Patriarch Fred C. Collier page cxxxi)

This is an invention of Brigham Young. He had to have something higher than the fulness to justify polygamy.

Luke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:27 am It’s not.

“The question is frequently asked, ‘Can we not be saved without going through with all those [Temple] ordinances? I would answer, No, not the fulness of salvation. Jesus said, There are many mansions in my Father’s house, and I will go and prepare a place for you. House here named should have been translated kingdom; and any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole law too.” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <20 January 1844> page 331)

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 11:36 pm

Telavian wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 11:29 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 11:18 pm BUT, that is salvation, living with god (in CK), heir of the father, joint heir with Christ, church of the Firstborn, etc... not becoming like or a god yourself, that is exaltation. that separates LDS doctrine from the rest of Christianity. Temple sealing is the ordinance that, like baptism, brings a couple together for eternity, IF and only IF, they are worthy, ready and sealed by the HSoP (HG). I'm guessing very few are. NO ONE else will obtain exaltation. Sorry, just a fact, BTW a fact the the Lord (Father) told me personally, and at a time, I was a bit out of sorts with the LDS temples due to Oaks discussion of tithing a few years back. After standing corrected I knew the temple sealings are real, for a few anyway.

This seems so unfair if you think about it. Suppose you were born an incredibly ugly person and no one wanted to be sealed to you. Are you damned then?
Suppose you were born in obscurity in isolation and no one wanted to be sealed to you?

You are essentially tying someone's eternal advancement to another person. This is also in direct contradiction to Paul's statements that we should only get married if we can't control our passions. Do we have more light and truth than Paul? I find this incredibly hard to believe because on his actions compared to our own.

Sorry, while salvation is an individual achievement award presented by Jesus to you via the HSoP, exaltation is a team sport. You cannot finish without your team. You cannot have children w/o a spouse. You cannot be god w/o having increase (that is the definition of god by JS).

If you're ready for exaltation in this eternal round, you will be beautiful to someone! and if it was promised you in the pre-mortal council, you will obtain it. If not now, in the millennium, after all that is what the millennium is for, that silly Mormon "welding link" story, is really about dotting the i. and crossing the t's to ensure every single person in the pre-mortal council, gets what they were promised (if they did what they promised that is).

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 9:30 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 11:31 pm So, let's see what the temple sealing claims to be. The OP has two questions really. First, what is a temple sealing according to LDS. and Second, do you accept that or think something else. I'm documenting the first.

What is below was linked to a while back on the forum as pre-1990 sealing ceremony. It has really three parts. The first is the husband promising to be a faithful husband. The second is the wife promising to be a faithful wife. These are here to ensure the marriage is legitimate and legal. See the words. Things like own free will, take each other as spouses, promise to be "honorable" according to norms in society (none spelled out, but assumed). Etc....

Part three is about eternity and celestial promises and sealing power.

Part 1: Brother X, do you take Sister Y by the right hand and receive her unto yourself to be your lawful and wedded wife for time and all eternity, with a covenant and promise that you will observe and keep all the laws, rites, and ordinances pertaining to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses of your own free will and choice?

Part 2: Sister Y do you take Brother X by the right hand and give yourself to him to be his lawful and wedded wife, and for him to be your lawful and wedded husband, for time and all eternity, with a covenant and promise that you will observe and keep all the laws, rites and ordinances pertaining to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses of your own free will and choice?

Part 3: By virtue of the Holy Priesthood and the authority vested in me, I pronounce you Brother X, and Sister Y, legally and lawfully husband and wife for time and all eternity, and I seal upon you the blessings of the holy resurrection with power to come forth in the morning of the first resurrection clothed in glory, immortality and eternal lives, and I seal upon you the blessings of kingdoms, thrones, principalities, powers, dominions and exaltations, with all the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and say unto you: be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth that you may have joy and rejoicing in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. All these blessings, together with all the blessings appertaining unto the New and Everlasting Covenant, I seal upon you by virtue of the Holy Priesthood, through your faithfulness, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.

We see the simple promise of an eternal partnership. and Eternal increase. But only if you are faithful. Only if it is sealed up by Holy Spirit of Promise.

It means that if you achieve this and get sealed up by HSoP, you will become gods. I mean, gods are celestial beings/couples that have eternal increase. that is the "spirits" or "intelligences" flow unto them to become celestial offspring and "do so without compulsory means for ever more".

Show me that in any other religion than LDS ( or a JS off shoot)!

I was told by God in a direct revelation with at least two members of the Godhead present "It pleases me." when I asked about marrying my husband. I had a bad experience the first go around and would not have gotten married without that direct revelation. Even though we had yet to be married or sealed in the temple when I asked, it has seemed to me since that our marriage was sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. If no civil or religious authority had been present to confirm it, we would still have been married by God at the consummation of our marriage.

We were married and sealed in an LDS temple, but I am no longer convinced it was necessary. Maybe it was, but I don't know.

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 11:22 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 11:36 pm

Telavian wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 11:29 pm

This seems so unfair if you think about it. Suppose you were born an incredibly ugly person and no one wanted to be sealed to you. Are you damned then?
Suppose you were born in obscurity in isolation and no one wanted to be sealed to you?

You are essentially tying someone's eternal advancement to another person. This is also in direct contradiction to Paul's statements that we should only get married if we can't control our passions. Do we have more light and truth than Paul? I find this incredibly hard to believe because on his actions compared to our own.

Sorry, while salvation is an individual achievement award presented by Jesus to you via the HSoP, exaltation is a team sport. You cannot finish without your team. You cannot have children w/o a spouse. You cannot be god w/o having increase (that is the definition of god by JS).

If you're ready for exaltation in this eternal round, you will be beautiful to someone! and if it was promised you in the pre-mortal council, you will obtain it. If not now, in the millennium, after all that is what the millennium is for, that silly Mormon "welding link" story, is really about dotting the i. and crossing the t's to ensure every single person in the pre-mortal council, gets what they were promised (if they did what they promised that is).

Where is this doctrine of exaltation in the scriptures? I can't find it.

Where is the doctrine of sealings? I can't find that either. However, looking back at everything Joseph said about sealings seems to have nothing to do with modern sealings.

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:43 pm If you cannot find it, then you're not ready to receive it. Sorry, just a fact. There are many, many references to the doctrines, mostly from Joseph directly, in the D&C, in PoGP and in his sermons. they are the mysteries and can only be comprehended by the spirit. they are there, in plain sight. I didn't see them for more than 60 years, yet I saw all the signs. They are the hidden things promised in the last dispensation.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:58 am

Luke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:27 am It’s not.

“The question is frequently asked, ‘Can we not be saved without going through with all those [Temple] ordinances? I would answer, No, not the fulness of salvation. Jesus said, There are many mansions in my Father’s house, and I will go and prepare a place for you. House here named should have been translated kingdom; and any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole law too.” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <20 January 1844> page 331)

You are making the mistake that because Joseph said it, or is supposed to have said it, then it is true.
Why is this?

Where in the scriptures does it say exaltation is higher than salvation?
Where in the scriptures does it say that a video presentation is necessary to return to God?
Where in the scriptures does it say that secret passwords and handshakes are needed to access God?

The problem with your belief system is you are swayed with every wind of doctrine.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 1:05 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:43 pm If you cannot find it, then you're not ready to receive it. Sorry, just a fact. There are many, many references to the doctrines, mostly from Joseph directly, in the D&C, in PoGP and in his sermons. they are the mysteries and can only be comprehended by the spirit. they are there, in plain sight. I didn't see them for more than 60 years, yet I saw all the signs. They are the hidden things promised in the last dispensation.

I am always perplexed by statements like this. We have the highest ordinances and rites of the gospel hidden in the scriptures because they are so sacred. Ok I can understand that.
However today we talk openly about them and are quite cavalier because they are "sacred not secret".

This is like how visions today are "too sacred to share", however the scriptures are full of them.

What changed? We supposedly have the same level of "light and truth" as they did or maybe even more.

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:43 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 11:22 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 27th, 2023, 11:36 pm

Sorry, while salvation is an individual achievement award presented by Jesus to you via the HSoP, exaltation is a team sport. You cannot finish without your team. You cannot have children w/o a spouse. You cannot be god w/o having increase (that is the definition of god by JS).

If you're ready for exaltation in this eternal round, you will be beautiful to someone! and if it was promised you in the pre-mortal council, you will obtain it. If not now, in the millennium, after all that is what the millennium is for, that silly Mormon "welding link" story, is really about dotting the i. and crossing the t's to ensure every single person in the pre-mortal council, gets what they were promised (if they did what they promised that is).

Where is this doctrine of exaltation in the scriptures? I can't find it.

Where is the doctrine of sealings? I can't find that either. However, looking back at everything Joseph said about sealings seems to have nothing to do with modern sealings.

If you cannot find it, then you're not ready to receive it. Sorry, just a fact. There are many, many references to the doctrines, mostly from Joseph directly, in the D&C, in PoGP and in his sermons. they are the mysteries and can only be comprehended by the spirit. they are there, in plain sight. I didn't see them for more than 60 years, yet I saw all the signs. They are the hidden things promised in the last dispensation.

BTW all things are hidden to some. 95% of the world has even Christ's teachings hidden from them. Put it right under their noses and they cannot see it. of the 300 M or so Christians, only a small fraction even know the true teachings of Christ, most just see him as a mentor, not god.

I have posted links and references to many different parts of the doctrines of exaltation, Abraham 3, Moses 4, D&C 63, 131, 132, 129, KFD, Sermon in the Grove, quotes from NT in Mark, Matthew, and from BoM with King Ben, Alma, Mosiah............... I'm not inclined to repeat them here as I don't really see your query as serious but more like a shot that you don't see it. If I'm wrong we can PM.

BTW, the Lord has shown me the truth and I have documented 70+ pages of revelations of my own, all tied to direct revelation and all in line with and supported by modern scriptures of Joseph. Many contradicting the current LDS interpretation and the interpretation of many from J Fielding on down, especially McConkie and co. Not that they are wrong, more like teaching mathematics and calculus to pre-K students. IMO.

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 4:59 pm You are right it is perplexing, and is intended to be so. One of the key statements in all of Joseph's teachings was in KFD where he said "you need to learn how to become gods like those that have done so before you". This is not handed to anyone. It must be dug out.

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 5:07 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 12:43 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 11:22 am

Where is this doctrine of exaltation in the scriptures? I can't find it.

Where is the doctrine of sealings? I can't find that either. However, looking back at everything Joseph said about sealings seems to have nothing to do with modern sealings.

If you cannot find it, then you're not ready to receive it. Sorry, just a fact. There are many, many references to the doctrines, mostly from Joseph directly, in the D&C, in PoGP and in his sermons. they are the mysteries and can only be comprehended by the spirit. they are there, in plain sight. I didn't see them for more than 60 years, yet I saw all the signs. They are the hidden things promised in the last dispensation.

BTW all things are hidden to some. 95% of the world has even Christ's teachings hidden from them. Put it right under their noses and they cannot see it. of the 300 M or so Christians, only a small fraction even know the true teachings of Christ, most just see him as a mentor, not god.

I have posted links and references to many different parts of the doctrines of exaltation, Abraham 3, Moses 4, D&C 63, 131, 132, 129, KFD, Sermon in the Grove, quotes from NT in Mark, Matthew, and from BoM with King Ben, Alma, Mosiah............... I'm not inclined to repeat them here as I don't really see your query as serious but more like a shot that you don't see it. If I'm wrong we can PM.

BTW, the Lord has shown me the truth and I have documented 70+ pages of revelations of my own, all tied to direct revelation and all in line with and supported by modern scriptures of Joseph. Many contradicting the current LDS interpretation and the interpretation of many from J Fielding on down, especially McConkie and co. Not that they are wrong, more like teaching mathematics and calculus to pre-K students. IMO.

Well, you believe that the all new, New and (shiny) Everlasting Covenant is Celestial polygamous marriage and is required for "exaltation". With respect, you have been fooled. Look again at what the New Everlasting Covenant actually is.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 5:15 pm
The King Follett discourse was Joseph making stuff up.

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 5:31 pm So, god came to you and told you KFD is BS? I mean did he visit you? Was it a dream, a vision, a revelation of the spirit? I'm happy to know.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 6:14 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 5:31 pm So, god came to you and told you KFD is BS? I mean did he visit you? Was it a dream, a vision, a revelation of the spirit? I'm happy to know.

I require a visit from God to say something is false, and you require a feeling to say something is true. Got it.

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:26 pm Seems people want to &!@$# but no one wants to talk about the OP question and what the sealing is. Even the part of man & wife?

Does anyone here believe there are literal celestial offspring in any fashion? Or does everyone buy into some figurative, adoptive, dogmatic "child" relationship?

I'm pretty confused, not really, that none here even care who god really is! None, it seems. Better to not know him (them) and keep him (them) mystical and uknowable. Seems most FF folks are no closer to god than Catholics? At least those that post. Not sure about the listeners? I suppose that is because none (few) comprehend eternal progression?

Luke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:27 am

Telavian wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 7:53 am

Luke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 7:32 am The Fullness of the Gospel of the Son of God, yes. The Fullness of the Gospel of the Father? (See 3 Nephi 16). No. That was only given to us in Nauvoo by the Prophet Joseph Smith.

“The Calling of The Church of Christ is to Preach the First Principles of the Gospel, the Gospel of Christ, and those Principles having to do with the Doctrine of Salvation — while the Church of the Firstborn is to Preach ‘THE GOSPEL OF THE FATHER’ which is the Celestial Doctrine which pertains to EXALTATION.” — Fred C. Collier (Doctrinal Teachings of Patriarch Fred C. Collier page cxxxi)

This is an invention of Brigham Young. He had to have something higher than the fulness to justify polygamy.

It’s not.

“The question is frequently asked, ‘Can we not be saved without going through with all those [Temple] ordinances? I would answer, No, not the fulness of salvation. Jesus said, There are many mansions in my Father’s house, and I will go and prepare a place for you. House here named should have been translated kingdom; and any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole law too.” — Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith <20 January 1844> page 331)

Telavian wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:10 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:26 pm Seems people want to &!@$# but no one wants to talk about the OP question and what the sealing is. Even the part of man & wife?

Does anyone here believe there are literal celestial offspring in any fashion? Or does everyone buy into some figurative, adoptive, dogmatic "child" relationship?

I'm pretty confused, not really, that none here even care who god really is! None, it seems. Better to not know him (them) and keep him (them) mystical and uknowable. Seems most FF folks are no closer to god than Catholics? At least those that post. Not sure about the listeners? I suppose that is because none (few) comprehend eternal progression?

I don't understand why we would want eternal marriage. In a trillion years am I going to have a trillion wives with a trillion kids?
The whole idea of heaven is really just an elevate earth which doesn't make sense.

God doesn't have a body and has no need to have intercourse to create spirit children. I really feel like we have just made false gods up like the Greeks.

TheDuke wrote: ↑September 28th, 2023, 10:26 pm Seems people want to &!@$# but no one wants to talk about the OP question and what the sealing is. Even the part of man & wife?

Does anyone here believe there are literal celestial offspring in any fashion? Or does everyone buy into some figurative, adoptive, dogmatic "child" relationship?

I'm pretty confused, not really, that none here even care who god really is! None, it seems. Better to not know him (them) and keep him (them) mystical and uknowable. Seems most FF folks are no closer to god than Catholics? At least those that post. Not sure about the listeners? I suppose that is because none (few) comprehend eternal progression?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:27 am Interesting… you don’t think God has a body? What was the point of the resurrection of Christ?

Exactly how our spirits were created is a mystery. Whatever the process is, I’m sure it’s amazing.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:40 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:27 am Interesting… you don’t think God has a body? What was the point of the resurrection of Christ?

Exactly how our spirits were created is a mystery. Whatever the process is, I’m sure it’s amazing.

Resurrection of Christ was to show us that we can be resurrected also. Christ opened the way for us and showed us that it was possible.

ransomme wrote: ↑September 29th, 2023, 7:44 am But what's the point? If God doesn't need a body, why would we?