Members are speaking out

[marc]

Let me clarify. My point was that anything less than being admitted into His presence falls short of "being perfect". And I MO saying do it "today" cheapens the idea.

I see. Thank you for clarifying. IMO means "in my opinion?" If I understand you correctly, on what do you base your opinion, please?

[OPMissionary]

This was an interesting video. They certainly were brave to do it.

However, they do make the most egregious of claims without any proof whatsoever. You can't simply say that the 15 are "evil", then read a bunch of scriptures showing past leaders being evil, and then say "See? They're evil." They do show evidence that they are courting wicked organizations such as the NAACP and the UN (I agree), but it's quite a jump from holding hands with the NAACP leadership to saying the 15 are child trafficking and committing sexual atrocities in the SLC temple. Could it be true? Sure. Is there proof? No. Not that I've seen yet.

What we need is a new Ezekiel ... one who the Lord takes behind the scenes and shows everything to. I hope that happens soon because if it's happening, it needs to be stopped.

It really wasn't a bad point they made, about the church's emergency response teams never mentioning or doing anything about the abduction of children at the site of disasters.

[JuneBug12000]

This was an interesting video. They certainly were brave to do it.

However, they do make the most egregious of claims without any proof whatsoever. You can't simply say that the 15 are "evil", then read a bunch of scriptures showing past leaders being evil, and then say "See? They're evil." They do show evidence that they are courting wicked organizations such as the NAACP and the UN (I agree), but it's quite a jump from holding hands with the NAACP leadership to saying the 15 are child trafficking and committing sexual atrocities in the SLC temple. Could it be true? Sure. Is there proof? No. Not that I've seen yet.

What we need is a new Ezekiel ... one who the Lord takes behind the scenes and shows everything to. I hope that happens soon because if it's happening, it needs to be stopped.

It really wasn't a bad point they made, about the church's emergency response teams never mentioning or doing anything about the abduction of children at the site of disasters.

They shared two personal.experices with bishops who abused/had affairs.

[Libertas Est Salus]

This was an interesting video. They certainly were brave to do it.

However, they do make the most egregious of claims without any proof whatsoever. You can't simply say that the 15 are "evil", then read a bunch of scriptures showing past leaders being evil, and then say "See? They're evil." They do show evidence that they are courting wicked organizations such as the NAACP and the UN (I agree), but it's quite a jump from holding hands with the NAACP leadership to saying the 15 are child trafficking and committing sexual atrocities in the SLC temple. Could it be true? Sure. Is there proof? No. Not that I've seen yet.

What we need is a new Ezekiel ... one who the Lord takes behind the scenes and shows everything to. I hope that happens soon because if it's happening, it needs to be stopped.

It really wasn't a bad point they made, about the church's emergency response teams never mentioning or doing anything about the abduction of children at the site of disasters.

I admit that I have no personal knowledge to go off of on this. But it's a fair point. Even official U.N. data supports the claim that human trafficking is a massive problem, worldwide. Why is the church silent on that issue? And no, I refuse to accept the occasional roundabout statement here and there ("Oh, but back in like 1985, RMN gave a talk where he, like, said that Jesus loves the little children."). Anybody who wants to throw something like that at me can hold their breath. For all intents and purposes, you cannot in good faith argue that the church has made it a priority to bring attention to—much less, end—human trafficking.

[LDS Physician]

This was an interesting video. They certainly were brave to do it.

However, they do make the most egregious of claims without any proof whatsoever. You can't simply say that the 15 are "evil", then read a bunch of scriptures showing past leaders being evil, and then say "See? They're evil." They do show evidence that they are courting wicked organizations such as the NAACP and the UN (I agree), but it's quite a jump from holding hands with the NAACP leadership to saying the 15 are child trafficking and committing sexual atrocities in the SLC temple. Could it be true? Sure. Is there proof? No. Not that I've seen yet.

What we need is a new Ezekiel ... one who the Lord takes behind the scenes and shows everything to. I hope that happens soon because if it's happening, it needs to be stopped.

It really wasn't a bad point they made, about the church's emergency response teams never mentioning or doing anything about the abduction of children at the site of disasters.

I agree with you here. They have hundreds of billions at their disposal and they got really excited this year when they announced they spent 900 million on humanitarian aid.

[The Red Pill]

I am so glad that this video was made. There are SO MANY good people who feel betrayed by the church leadership, that say nothing and suffer quiet desperation...not knowing that others are feeling the same.

They need to get up to speed on Brigham...but that's another story for another day...

I was shocked to see this in my inbox this morning.

Screenshot_20230927_160050_Gmail.jpg (149.75 KiB) Viewed 451 times

Notice it says "HEAR HIM at conference"...a tad presumptuous and narcissistic to say the least. Unless Jesus Christ is speaking...this borders on heresy. I would love to HEAR HIM...but that's not what conference is...it's hear "them"...meaning the leadership of the church which these two women rightly criticized.

A reminder of what church leaders have said over the pulpit in conference lately:

1. The deadly-juice "Godsend" is safe and effective.
2. Dead or past prophets are not worth listening to...less valuable than old comic books.
3. As long as you don't act on it, it's not a sin...directly contradicting the sermon on the mount.
4. Be a good global-citizen.

I could go on...

Until church leadership is worthy of that kind of top billing...they better change the ad copy to something more accurate like:

We invite you to feel the spirit of the Lord this conference weekend.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I was shocked to see this in my inbox this morning.

You still get/allow emails from the church?

[The Red Pill]

This was an interesting video. They certainly were brave to do it.

However, they do make the most egregious of claims without any proof whatsoever. You can't simply say that the 15 are "evil", then read a bunch of scriptures showing past leaders being evil, and then say "See? They're evil." They do show evidence that they are courting wicked organizations such as the NAACP and the UN (I agree), but it's quite a jump from holding hands with the NAACP leadership to saying the 15 are child trafficking and committing sexual atrocities in the SLC temple. Could it be true? Sure. Is there proof? No. Not that I've seen yet.

What we need is a new Ezekiel ... one who the Lord takes behind the scenes and shows everything to. I hope that happens soon because if it's happening, it needs to be stopped.

It really wasn't a bad point they made, about the church's emergency response teams never mentioning or doing anything about the abduction of children at the site of disasters.

I agree with you here. They have hundreds of billions at their disposal and they got really excited this year when they announced they spent 900 million on humanitarian aid.

Which about 800 million of was just a bookkeeping adjustment...moving fast offerings into the humanitarian aid category. To make it appear they got a lot more generous...when they really didn't.

Widows Mite report details the cooked books adjustment.

[ransomme]

Let me clarify. My point was that anything less than being admitted into His presence falls short of "being perfect". And I MO saying do it "today" cheapens the idea.

I see. Thank you for clarifying. IMO means "in my opinion?" If I understand you correctly, on what do you base your opinion, please?

IMO = In my opinion

For sure there are levels to perfection. But would you consider yourself truly complete with anything less?

Genesis 6
9 ¶ These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Genesis 17
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Abraham 2
12 Now, after the Lord had withdrawn from speaking to me, and withdrawn his face from me, I said in my heart: Thy servant has sought thee earnestly; now I have found thee;

[marc]

Let me clarify. My point was that anything less than being admitted into His presence falls short of "being perfect". And I MO saying do it "today" cheapens the idea.

I see. Thank you for clarifying. IMO means "in my opinion?" If I understand you correctly, on what do you base your opinion, please?

IMO = In my opinion

For sure there are levels to perfection. But would you consider yourself truly complete with anything less?

Genesis 6
9 ¶ These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Genesis 17
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Abraham 2
12 Now, after the Lord had withdrawn from speaking to me, and withdrawn his face from me, I said in my heart: Thy servant has sought thee earnestly; now I have found thee;

My dear brother, I know these scriptures. But have you considered Job? God called Job perfect who had not yet walked with God and God said that there were NONE like him on the Earth. I have to wonder if you read my blog. But consider 3 Nephi where 2,500 people at Bountiful received their Second Comforter. And yet Jesus commanded them to be perfect...even though they were standing in His presence. But to answer your question, I don't know if I'd consider myself complete with anything less. Are we really complete if we aren't resurrected in glory to inherit a throne with Jesus? Perfection is relative to one's true understanding of what it means to be like Jesus. You and I may differ in our understanding and application of what it means to be like Jesus-or rather we may be at two different levels-and still both be perfect if we are both living up to everything we understand about being Christlike. And a child, though still very weak in understanding, might be perfect if that child is living up to everything it understands about being Christlike. I go into more detail in my blog. Please feel free to correct whatever you perceive I got wrong. I welcome it.

[Robin Hood]

Nevertheless, evidence is required.

Evidence that you'd accept is what you mean, right? Hence my original question. So many people completely discount SRA, MK Ultra, etc., because they demand evidence of a crime that produces almost no evidence, only scarred souls and fractured minds.

Whether I accept it or not is not the issue. Anyone can claim anything, but to be credible some evidence is required.
I'm not saying they have to prove it beyond reasonable doubt, but requiring some evidence beyond their word alone is sensible. Without it we are "tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine".

[Gadget]

I couldn’t get through this video. Right out the gate; if the church is in war torn countries doing humanitarian work, then they know about sex trafficking and are complicity evil. If one bishop abuses one kid, all the leadership is evil. Too much compartmentalization and association through correlation.

They are not wrong in there being prophesy about problems with leadership in the last days. Not wrong about problems with the UN and cozying up to Babylon. But I saw their overall logic as throwing the baby out with the bath water. I valued my remaining 8 minutes of the video as time better served elsewhere.

You just summed up most posters on this forum.

I have no doubt there is dirt on every member of the church. Welcome to earth. God will chose whom he choses.

[ransomme]

I see. Thank you for clarifying. IMO means "in my opinion?" If I understand you correctly, on what do you base your opinion, please?

IMO = In my opinion

For sure there are levels to perfection. But would you consider yourself truly complete with anything less?

Genesis 6
9 ¶ These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Genesis 17
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Abraham 2
12 Now, after the Lord had withdrawn from speaking to me, and withdrawn his face from me, I said in my heart: Thy servant has sought thee earnestly; now I have found thee;

My dear brother, I know these scriptures. But have you considered Job? God called Job perfect who had not yet walked with God and God said that there were NONE like him on the Earth. I have to wonder if you read my blog. But consider 3 Nephi where 2,500 people at Bountiful received their Second Comforter. And yet Jesus commanded them to be perfect...even though they were standing in His presence. But to answer your question, I don't know if I'd consider myself complete with anything less. Are we really complete if we aren't resurrected in glory to inherit a throne with Jesus? Perfection is relative to one's true understanding of what it means to be like Jesus. You and I may differ in our understanding and application of what it means to be like Jesus-or rather we may be at two different levels-and still both be perfect if we are both living up to everything we understand about being Christlike. And a child, though still very weak in understanding, might be perfect if that child is living up to everything it understands about being Christlike. I go into more detail in my blog. Please feel free to correct whatever you perceive I got wrong. I welcome it.

Honestly I don't think that we are that fast apart.

I suppose that I just think too much is hanging on one word. I think that concepts and patterns are better teachers, and offer more insight

To me, you seem to be doing something similar to a critique you made about those who put significance into the Savior including Himself in the charge to be perfect to the Nephites, but not in the Bible.

Instead of having everything balancing on the interpretation of one word that has different meanings from verse to verse. Perhaps we should look at the examples in the scriptures .

I don't deny that every blessing is possible "today" (in this life) by the grace of God. Whether it's the example of Enoch, the brother of Jared, Abraham, Nephi, etc.

And speaking of such examples, we should turn our hearts to the fathers and strive to secure the same blessings as they obtained.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Nevertheless, evidence is required.

Evidence that you'd accept is what you mean, right? Hence my original question. So many people completely discount SRA, MK Ultra, etc., because they demand evidence of a crime that produces almost no evidence, only scarred souls and fractured minds.

Whether I accept it or not is not the issue. Anyone can claim anything, but to be credible some evidence is required.
I'm not saying they have to prove it beyond reasonable doubt, but requiring some evidence beyond their word alone is sensible. Without it we are "tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine".

So we cycle back to my original question. What evidence would you accept?

BTW, I don’t think we are in the dark on this one, I do think we can use the gift of discernment. But I’ve often found that for most people the brethren are untouchable. In fact, in general, most people can’t conceive why one person would want to harm another. It’s why a large portion of the US population chose to believe the events of 9/11 as portrayed by the media. Cognitive dissonance.

[PeacefulProtests]

Lots of assumptions in this video. Child trafficking takes place at disaster sites, and the Church is also at those sites, therefore they MUST be involved. Our Ward has sexual abuse going on and the leaders in our ward are corrupt therefore ALL church leadership must be corrupt etc

[Reluctant Watchman]

Lots of assumptions in this video. Child trafficking takes place at disaster sites, and the Church is also at those sites, therefore they MUST be involved. Our Ward has sexual abuse going on and the leaders in our ward are corrupt therefore ALL church leadership must be corrupt etc

But… the church, at the highest levels, does very little to support the abused. In fact, I’d say they go to great lengths to remit themselves and to actually worsen the problem through policies and procedures. Kirton McConkie is their go-to law firm that is known to have created a system that shows little support for the abused.

And, if you want to go down the rabbit hole, there are many, many allegations of abuse, from the highest ranks.

[PeacefulProtests]

Lots of assumptions in this video. Child trafficking takes place at disaster sites, and the Church is also at those sites, therefore they MUST be involved. Our Ward has sexual abuse going on and the leaders in our ward are corrupt therefore ALL church leadership must be corrupt etc

But… the church, at the highest levels, does very little to support the abused. In fact, I’d say they go to great lengths to remit themselves and to actually worsen the problem through policies and procedures. Kirton McConkie is their go-to law firm that is known to have created a system that shows little support for the abused.

And, if you want to go down the rabbit hole, there are many, many allegations of abuse, from the highest ranks.

Yeah nothing surprises me anymore honestly. I recently found out a childhood leader I had who was one of my favorites at the time was involved in sexual abuse with his own kids. Pretty shocking and surprising when I found out, had no idea. I think it was Michael Rush who said in his Daniel 11 book that when the Anti Christ comes he will shine a light on all of the predatory evil behavior not just in other churches and religions but in this one and many will become disillusioned with religion as a whole when they find out

So yes I agree there is probably WAY more than we can even imagine going on but to call the Entire church leadership evil is disingenuous in my opinion

[Reluctant Watchman]

Yeah nothing surprises me anymore honestly. I recently found out a childhood leader I had who was one of my favorites at the time was involved in sexual abuse with his own kids. Pretty shocking and surprising when I found out, had no idea. I think it was Michael Rush who said in his Daniel 11 book that when the Anti Christ comes he will shine a light on all of the predatory evil behavior not just in other churches and religions but in this one and many will become disillusioned with religion as a whole when they find out

So yes I agree there is probably WAY more than we can even imagine going on but to call the Entire church leadership evil is disingenuous in my opinion

I'd never lump an entire group into an "evil" category. Now... some of their doctrines? Yes, I'd say that some church doctrines and practices are evil and do much harm.

[Wolfwoman]

They’ve put another video up. About Tim Ballard.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

The fact they called the leaders evil, and not just that they have supported evil, tells me a disciplinary court is on the horizon.

They aren't wrong. Siding with the UN agenda is evil. Not enforcing the honor code at BYU is evil. The list grows longer daily unfortunately. We've gone over a ton of points here on the forum. As members if His church, we will be held accountable as well if our brothers and sisters are excommunicated for standing up against evil and we don't help them. When they changed the handbook a couple of years ago regarding leaders, we all knew there would be dark times ahead. Good on them for publicly saying what they're feeling.

What did they change in the handbook regarding leaders?

[InfoWarrior82]

I am so glad that this video was made. There are SO MANY good people who feel betrayed by the church leadership, that say nothing and suffer quiet desperation...not knowing that others are feeling the same.

They need to get up to speed on Brigham...but that's another story for another day...

I was shocked to see this in my inbox this morning.

Screenshot_20230927_160050_Gmail.jpg


Notice it says "HEAR HIM at conference"...a tad presumptuous and narcissistic to say the least. Unless Jesus Christ is speaking...this borders on heresy. I would love to HEAR HIM...but that's not what conference is...it's hear "them"...meaning the leadership of the church which these two women rightly criticized.

A reminder of what church leaders have said over the pulpit in conference lately:

1. The deadly-juice "Godsend" is safe and effective.
2. Dead or past prophets are not worth listening to...less valuable than old comic books.
3. As long as you don't act on it, it's not a sin...directly contradicting the sermon on the mount.
4. Be a good global-citizen.

I could go on...

Until church leadership is worthy of that kind of top billing...they better change the ad copy to something more accurate like:

We invite you to feel the spirit of the Lord this conference weekend.

They're so sure that their words are God's words.

Where are the new, recent, words of the Savior? Have they heard Him?

If He speaks to them, like He did to real prophets of old, then this requires basic writing utensils. Like a pen... a pencil would do. Some parchment... I mean, I think even a computer with a word processor would do in these modern days.

A challenge to anyone reading this:
Using the standard works, which prophet did not, in some form or another, say "Thus saith the Lord" and write down His words exactly?

[The Red Pill]

I am so glad that this video was made. There are SO MANY good people who feel betrayed by the church leadership, that say nothing and suffer quiet desperation...not knowing that others are feeling the same.

They need to get up to speed on Brigham...but that's another story for another day...

I was shocked to see this in my inbox this morning.

Screenshot_20230927_160050_Gmail.jpg


Notice it says "HEAR HIM at conference"...a tad presumptuous and narcissistic to say the least. Unless Jesus Christ is speaking...this borders on heresy. I would love to HEAR HIM...but that's not what conference is...it's hear "them"...meaning the leadership of the church which these two women rightly criticized.

A reminder of what church leaders have said over the pulpit in conference lately:

1. The deadly-juice "Godsend" is safe and effective.
2. Dead or past prophets are not worth listening to...less valuable than old comic books.
3. As long as you don't act on it, it's not a sin...directly contradicting the sermon on the mount.
4. Be a good global-citizen.

I could go on...

Until church leadership is worthy of that kind of top billing...they better change the ad copy to something more accurate like:

We invite you to feel the spirit of the Lord this conference weekend.

They're so sure that their words are God's words.

Where are the new, recent, words of the Savior? Have they heard Him?

If He speaks to them, like He did to real prophets of old, then this requires basic writing utensils. Like a pen... a pencil would do. Some parchment... I mean, I think even a computer with a word processor would do in these modern days.

A challenge to anyone reading this:
Using the standard works, which prophet did not, in some form or another, say "Thus saith the Lord" and write down His words exactly?

Good point.

Since the death of Joseph and Hyrum, there has literally been an extreme drought of God's word. Just a few added items...which most of those are highly questionable when you study the history.

We have been wondering in the desert a very long time.

[GeeR]

As members if His church, we will be held accountable as well if our brothers and sisters are excommunicated for standing up against evil and we don't help them.

What!? You mean to help them stay in the corrupt church? This doesn't make a bit of sense. If anything we are to encourage them to leave--depart from Babylon. WHY? To avoid the plagues of Babylon! I've never advised members to "stay in the boat" i.e. Titanic. That makes no sense at all. If anything we'll be held "accountable" for not "helping" them leave!

[GeeR]

So yes I agree there is probably WAY more than we can even imagine going on but to call the Entire church leadership evil is disingenuous in my opinion.

I very much doubt that you would say that if you were privy to all that they conceal from the members!

[JohnnyL]

The fact they called the leaders evil, and not just that they have supported evil, tells me a disciplinary court is on the horizon.

Shouldn't it be?