LDS Freedom Forum

tmac wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 5:15 am What kind of “evidence” are you looking for? For essentially millennia, first-hand account testimony has been considered prime evidence. But in the age we now live, many people will only accept electronic evidence — typically video (as if it can’t be manipulated).

In another thread, Fred posted up a video of one of Tim’s former associates giving a first-hand account of how TB and OUR operated.

It feels like the house of cards is crumbling in a myriad of ways, and it is hard to reconcile the multiple myths that TB created with reality.

As I have suggested elsewhere, it looks to me like TB is going the way of Tiger Woods, as more and more actual “evidence” does surface that he was living double lives. It’s not the first time such a thing has happened.

Now, here’s the deal: If people want this all to play-out in a court of law (instead of just the court of public opinion), and have all the “ evidence” come out, TB is probably going to have to start filing defamation lawsuits, and shoulder the burden of proving that all these people are lying, and that they are doing so maliciously, with the sole intent of damaging him. In light of the current state of this drama fest, if TB chooses not to do that, it will speak volumes, and the silence in that regard will be deafening.

Atrasado wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 9:26 pm Today a substack article was published by a Utah private investigator who writes using the name Go El. This investigator typically covers that David Hamblin case, and other alleged Utah SRA activities. I have read most of this man's stuff and I think he is quite credible. He is professional investigator with decades of investigative experience.

This man writes that he has obtained evidence of the following:

1. The accusations against Tim Ballard have been instigated by Mitt Romney and Gordon Bowen.
(Gordon Bowen is a man accused by the Hamblin sisters of horrific SRA crimes. Hamblin has other horrible accusations against him, some of which have come out in his divorce proceedings.)
2. The motive in attacking Tim Ballard was to keep both Utah US Senate seats from falling into the hands of strong conservatives.
3. The reason that the article was sent to Vice is because they were the only organization that would run the article. Apparently, this is because not a single woman was willing to come forward and verify these accusations. It is alleged that this is due to fear, however it is hard to understand what they would have to fear in doing so except for reputational issues.
4. Bowen has access to President Ballard's office, and used Ballard's staff to forward the allegations that he personally wrote to Vice.
5. This is apparently a national issue because senator Mitch McConnell has become involved in these attacks on Ballard and has funded media hits against Tim Ballard.
6. There are, according to this investigator, at least four LDS apostles who maintain regular contact with Gordon Bowen. They are Ballard, Gong, Anderson, and Christofferson.
7. Apparently, Gong and Ballard are close friends. This is beyond suspicious.

I haven't been a big fan of Tim Ballard, and I still am not, however, it seems like he is getting a raw deal. I am especially troubled by the involvement of Gordon Bowen in this case. In another thread, I pointed out that it is reprehensible that the church would attack Tim Ballard while saying nothing about a true monster such as Gordon Bowen. It is surprising and a strange coincidence that Bowen is actually involved in these things. However, this does explain why the church hasn't denounced Gordon Bowen.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 6:10 am

Atrasado wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 9:26 pm Today a substack article was published by a Utah private investigator who writes using the name Go El. This investigator typically covers that David Hamblin case, and other alleged Utah SRA activities. I have read most of this man's stuff and I think he is quite credible. He is professional investigator with decades of investigative experience.

This man writes that he has obtained evidence of the following:

1. The accusations against Tim Ballard have been instigated by Mitt Romney and Gordon Bowen.
(Gordon Bowen is a man accused by the Hamblin sisters of horrific SRA crimes. Hamblin has other horrible accusations against him, some of which have come out in his divorce proceedings.)
2. The motive in attacking Tim Ballard was to keep both Utah US Senate seats from falling into the hands of strong conservatives.
3. The reason that the article was sent to Vice is because they were the only organization that would run the article. Apparently, this is because not a single woman was willing to come forward and verify these accusations. It is alleged that this is due to fear, however it is hard to understand what they would have to fear in doing so except for reputational issues.
4. Bowen has access to President Ballard's office, and used Ballard's staff to forward the allegations that he personally wrote to Vice.
5. This is apparently a national issue because senator Mitch McConnell has become involved in these attacks on Ballard and has funded media hits against Tim Ballard.
6. There are, according to this investigator, at least four LDS apostles who maintain regular contact with Gordon Bowen. They are Ballard, Gong, Anderson, and Christofferson.
7. Apparently, Gong and Ballard are close friends. This is beyond suspicious.

I haven't been a big fan of Tim Ballard, and I still am not, however, it seems like he is getting a raw deal. I am especially troubled by the involvement of Gordon Bowen in this case. In another thread, I pointed out that it is reprehensible that the church would attack Tim Ballard while saying nothing about a true monster such as Gordon Bowen. It is surprising and a strange coincidence that Bowen is actually involved in these things. However, this does explain why the church hasn't denounced Gordon Bowen.

Could you tell us about this Gordon Bowen character. I know nothing about him or anything he has done.

BigT wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 9:00 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 6:10 am

Atrasado wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 9:26 pm Today a substack article was published by a Utah private investigator who writes using the name Go El. This investigator typically covers that David Hamblin case, and other alleged Utah SRA activities. I have read most of this man's stuff and I think he is quite credible. He is professional investigator with decades of investigative experience.

This man writes that he has obtained evidence of the following:

1. The accusations against Tim Ballard have been instigated by Mitt Romney and Gordon Bowen.
(Gordon Bowen is a man accused by the Hamblin sisters of horrific SRA crimes. Hamblin has other horrible accusations against him, some of which have come out in his divorce proceedings.)
2. The motive in attacking Tim Ballard was to keep both Utah US Senate seats from falling into the hands of strong conservatives.
3. The reason that the article was sent to Vice is because they were the only organization that would run the article. Apparently, this is because not a single woman was willing to come forward and verify these accusations. It is alleged that this is due to fear, however it is hard to understand what they would have to fear in doing so except for reputational issues.
4. Bowen has access to President Ballard's office, and used Ballard's staff to forward the allegations that he personally wrote to Vice.
5. This is apparently a national issue because senator Mitch McConnell has become involved in these attacks on Ballard and has funded media hits against Tim Ballard.
6. There are, according to this investigator, at least four LDS apostles who maintain regular contact with Gordon Bowen. They are Ballard, Gong, Anderson, and Christofferson.
7. Apparently, Gong and Ballard are close friends. This is beyond suspicious.

I haven't been a big fan of Tim Ballard, and I still am not, however, it seems like he is getting a raw deal. I am especially troubled by the involvement of Gordon Bowen in this case. In another thread, I pointed out that it is reprehensible that the church would attack Tim Ballard while saying nothing about a true monster such as Gordon Bowen. It is surprising and a strange coincidence that Bowen is actually involved in these things. However, this does explain why the church hasn't denounced Gordon Bowen.

Could you tell us about this Gordon Bowen character. I know nothing about him or anything he has done.

Articles I’ve red bout him are now behind a paywall. Here’s a short video:

https://rumble.com/v27aioi-investigatio ... bowen.html

Robin Hood wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 6:10 am

Atrasado wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 9:26 pm Today a substack article was published by a Utah private investigator who writes using the name Go El. This investigator typically covers that David Hamblin case, and other alleged Utah SRA activities. I have read most of this man's stuff and I think he is quite credible. He is professional investigator with decades of investigative experience.

This man writes that he has obtained evidence of the following:

1. The accusations against Tim Ballard have been instigated by Mitt Romney and Gordon Bowen.
(Gordon Bowen is a man accused by the Hamblin sisters of horrific SRA crimes. Hamblin has other horrible accusations against him, some of which have come out in his divorce proceedings.)
2. The motive in attacking Tim Ballard was to keep both Utah US Senate seats from falling into the hands of strong conservatives.
3. The reason that the article was sent to Vice is because they were the only organization that would run the article. Apparently, this is because not a single woman was willing to come forward and verify these accusations. It is alleged that this is due to fear, however it is hard to understand what they would have to fear in doing so except for reputational issues.
4. Bowen has access to President Ballard's office, and used Ballard's staff to forward the allegations that he personally wrote to Vice.
5. This is apparently a national issue because senator Mitch McConnell has become involved in these attacks on Ballard and has funded media hits against Tim Ballard.
6. There are, according to this investigator, at least four LDS apostles who maintain regular contact with Gordon Bowen. They are Ballard, Gong, Anderson, and Christofferson.
7. Apparently, Gong and Ballard are close friends. This is beyond suspicious.

I haven't been a big fan of Tim Ballard, and I still am not, however, it seems like he is getting a raw deal. I am especially troubled by the involvement of Gordon Bowen in this case. In another thread, I pointed out that it is reprehensible that the church would attack Tim Ballard while saying nothing about a true monster such as Gordon Bowen. It is surprising and a strange coincidence that Bowen is actually involved in these things. However, this does explain why the church hasn't denounced Gordon Bowen.

Could you tell us about this Gordon Bowen character. I know nothing about him or anything he has done.

Atrasado wrote: ↑September 16th, 2023, 3:16 pm ******Important warning: once you read the victim statements below you can't unread them. They are very, very disturbing. If you are easily disturbed you might want to skip them. If you aren't easily disturbed you still might want to skip them. I have read them because I can't seem to look away from car crashes and other horrible things.******

******These allegations are extremely difficult to believe. However, remember that Brian Hamblin is on tape admitting to raping his daughters and admitted the same in divorce court. Remember that over 100 other people have come forward to the Utah County Sheriff's Department corroborating these allegations. Remember that Rose Stevenson (Hamblin) has been arrested as well and that her arrest was for abusing someone who wasn't her daughter. Also, remember that many details about Bowen came out in his divorce trial.******

larsenb wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 10:59 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 9:54 pm
You'd think. It's funny that they would publicly denounce Tim Ballard even though I haven't heard anyone from the Church denouncing Gordon Bowen, an accused Luciferian pedophile, torturer, murderer, and cannibal. Russ Ballard even gave him $20 million of the Lord's sacred tithing funds to make a film no one will ever see which is enlightening. Follow the money because it usually explains everything.

What's the scoop on Gordon Bowen? I've never heard of him. Any sources that delve into this?

If you read the witness statements from the David Hamblin case Gordon Bowen's name is prominent, and he was the worst of the bunch according to the Hamblin daughters. They say everyone was terrified of the guy. I am. You can read their statements at thelastamericanvagabond.com. Go to the drop-down menu, click on Derrick Broze, and read his series, Utah Ritualized Sex Abuse Investigation. On this page of that investigation, the first embedded document is a witness statement that mentions Gordon Bowen on page 45.

Here's a video with some background on Bowen which mentions his relationship with Russ Ballard. I don't agree with everything Lynn Packer says (and I have my own questions about Packer) but it does give you some useful background information.

Here's some background on Bowen when he was young and was hired away from Bonneville Communications by advertising giant, Ogilvy and Mather.

Here's another witness statement that discusses Gordon Bowen. This statement probably has the most details.

Some may wonder if M. Russell Ballard and Gordon Bowen know each other through Ballard's wife, Barbara Bowen Ballard. However, there is no family relationship between Gordon Bowen and Barbara Bowen. Gordon Bowen is the son of an Englishman, Wesley G. Bowen who came to Utah after World War II. Bowen joined the Church when he was 22, according to one source I've seen and went into advertising.

Bowen worked closely with Mitt Romney on the SLC Olympics and has been a part of many well-known advertising campaigns.

PS If you really want to blow a hole through your ability to trust people, read Derrick Broze's series on Gordon B. Hinckley on thelastamericanvagabond.com.

crabman wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 12:25 am It's hard to know what to think anymore. Eric Moutsos says he has spoken with 4 of the accusers. Here's a post he made

Screenshot_20230924_002316.jpg

Seed Starter wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 1:39 pm

crabman wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 12:25 am It's hard to know what to think anymore. Eric Moutsos says he has spoken with 4 of the accusers. Here's a post he made

Screenshot_20230924_002316.jpg

Well written. Doubters have been relying heavily on the horrible reputation vice has to avoid dealing with the ugly truth that seems to be emerging. What happens when reputable conservatives like Eric no longer support Tim because they smell the smoke of a fire? As sources independent of vice come forward the vice stories won't matter anymore. I don't have the ability to remove his due process with my dumb posts and I wouldn't wish for that. It's as if having an opinion on the matter carries with it the assumption that I don't want due process for Tim. That's silly. I think it's a way or some to avoid dealing with the unmasking of Tim.

This seems like some sort of defense mechanism because Tim supporters don't want to believe they may have been scammed. Admitting that you can't judge character makes people feel stupid and it's uncomfortable. It's ok things may have started out with the best of intentions. People (Tim and OUR included) have been yelling about the good they've been doing for years. Where were the TIm supporters demanding evidence back then? If we need evidence before someone is guilty don't we also need evidence of claims of good works? I never heard OUR supporters demand any evidence but I hear them demanding it now when I question anything. Interesting.

This feels very much like my experience with the church. So many people are completely unwilling to look at reality. They are married to their blind spots when it comes to wrongdoing by the church and anyone saying a peep about failings of the church are the ones with the problem, not the church. I'm a little tired of it. I just want the truth. I want the ugly, disturbing, amazing, beautiful, frightening, and heart warming truth. Just truth. So much BS has occurred in this world because nobody asks enough damn questions and there's way too much pretending going on. Guilty until proven innocent? Sure. I'm only at trustworthy until proven untrustworthy so far. Lying is the number one sign that something is wrong. Even small lies can be a good indicator because it shows someone is sculpting an image or hiding something. Perhaps I know too much about marketing so I'm a bit jaded. BTW that Bowen guy has worked for ad agencies for years. The stuff I've read about him and others mentioned in this post is insane.

RosyPosy wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 11:37 pm Wow me might be looking at a communist infiltration of church leadership.

Christofferson gave a talk about the UN agenda 2030 and their SDG's.

Gong, Anderson and Ballard I believe were the ones wearing the SDG pins.

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 2:16 pm Evidence or GTFO.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 3:11 pm

RosyPosy wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 11:37 pm Wow me might be looking at a communist infiltration of church leadership.

Christofferson gave a talk about the UN agenda 2030 and their SDG's.

Gong, Anderson and Ballard I believe were the ones wearing the SDG pins.

It's worth pointing out that Elder Christofferson's talk was quite critical of the UN SDG's.

tmac wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 3:16 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 2:16 pm Evidence or GTFO.

Fair enough. Who’s got the burden of proof and persuasion here? That’s who’s responsible for producing evidence.

At a certain point, once enough evidence (even in the loosest sense of the term) is produced to make a “prima facie” case, and create probable cause to believe one way or the other, then the burden of proof/persuasion essentially shifts to disprove the prima facie evidence.

But of course none of that matters to people who who are already satisfied with the existing support for their current positions, paradigms, and convictions.

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 3:29 pm

tmac wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 3:16 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 2:16 pm Evidence or GTFO.

Fair enough. Who’s got the burden of proof and persuasion here? That’s who’s responsible for producing evidence.

At a certain point, once enough evidence (even in the loosest sense of the term) is produced to make a “prima facie” case, and create probable cause to believe one way or the other, then the burden of proof/persuasion essentially shifts to disprove the prima facie evidence.

But of course none of that matters to people who who are already satisfied with the existing support for their current positions, paradigms, and convictions.

I mean, it's entirely possible that Ballard is a creepy, deep state agent... (nothing would surprise me these days). But... we don't even know if these women are even real people.

Trucker wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 4:05 pm From the article:

"However, there is no good or reasonable explanation for Tim Ballard to take any woman posing as his wife along on a sex trafficking sting or raid. The goal of any sting operation is to obtain information, apprehensions, and convictions with minimal complication or risk. There is no tactical reason for a man posing as a sex trafficker to bring his wife along for the ride. "

There actually is, and the reason is that when he would go to these seedy places he would be expected to partake in carnal activities. By bring a "wife" he would avoid having to do that and instead "do it" with his "wife." She would say she didn't want him doing anything with another woman, so they would leave him alone.