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"And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 2:43 pm
by Shawn Henry
In Revelation 21:2 John sees the New Jerusalem and in verse 10 he sees the holy Jerusalem. After describing the city, he says in verse 22 "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."

Though John did not specifically say, it seems logical that if Jerusalem would have no temple that New Jerusalem would not either. This is the essence of verse 22 teaching that the Lord is the temple.

If the Lord is the temple of Jerusalem and it has no physical temple, we should be able to say the same about New Jerusalem.

Did the need for temples end with Christ? Were they a part of the Law of Moses that was done away?

Does the Book of Mormon have any references to temples after the time of Christ?

If JS brings forth revelations about temples, are we right to vet those revelations against scripture?

Is it possible that any latter-day temple references simply represent the counterfeit to the Lord being our temple?

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 3:24 pm
by Telavian
We would have to define what a temple is. I believe, according to D&C 110, that the Kirtland house/temple is going to come back into service. God also refers to his temple several times in the D&C like 84:4. Temples are also mentioned in the Book of Mormon several times.

I don't think we will have "temples" in Zion however we will certainly have dedicated buildings for non-ordinary things which are dedicated to advanced things of God.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 3:28 pm
by Libertas Est Salus
Shawn Henry wrote: September 21st, 2023, 2:43 pm

Does the Book of Mormon have any references to temples after the time of Christ?
It seems the Book of Mormon makes a point to describe how the resurrected Lord appeared at the temple, and that over the subsequent days and visits between the Lord and the Lehites, the meeting place was the temple. If I'm not mistaken.

I'm not saying that disproves your point. This topic is something that's been on my mind for a few months and something that's gonna take me a while to sort out, I'm sure.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 3:43 pm
by sushi_chef
"21 And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer, in Fayette, Seneca county, and at sundry times, and in divers places through all the travels and tribulations of this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! And the voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope!

22 Brethren, shall we not go on in so great a cause? Go forward and not backward. Courage, brethren; and on, on to the victory! Let your hearts rejoice, and be exceedingly glad. Let the earth break forth into singing. Let the dead speak forth anthems of eternal praise to the King Immanuel, who hath ordained, before the world was, that which would enable us to redeem them out of their prison; for the prisoners shall go free.

23 Let the mountains shout for joy, and all ye valleys cry aloud; and all ye seas and dry lands tell the wonders of your Eternal King! And ye rivers, and brooks, and rills, flow down with gladness. Let the woods and all the trees of the field praise the Lord; and ye solid rocks weep for joy! And let the sun, moon, and the morning stars sing together, and let all the sons of God shout for joy! And let the eternal creations declare his name forever and ever! And again I say, how glorious is the voice we hear from heaven, proclaiming in our ears, glory, and salvation, and honor, and immortality, and eternal life; kingdoms, principalities, and powers!

24 Behold, the great day of the Lord is at hand; and who can abide the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap; and he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Let us, therefore, as a church and a people, and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple, when it is finished, a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation.

25 Brethren, I have many things to say to you on the subject; but shall now close for the present, and continue the subject another time. I am, as ever, your humble servant and never deviating friend,

Joseph Smith.
" 128

"56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

60 Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record, and I know that this record is true, through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so. Amen.
" 138
:arrow:

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 3:49 pm
by Shawn Henry
Telavian wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:24 pm Temples are also mentioned in the Book of Mormon several times.
Yes, during the time of the Law of Moses. Are there references after 3rd Nephi, after the Law was done away?

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 3:51 pm
by Shawn Henry
Libertas Est Salus wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:28 pm It seems the Book of Mormon makes a point to describe how the resurrected Lord appeared at the temple, and that over the subsequent days and visits between the Lord and the Lehites, the meeting place was the temple. If I'm not mistaken.

I'm not saying that disproves your point. This topic is something that's been on my mind for a few months and something that's gonna take me a while to sort out, I'm sure.
It was rightfully important during the Law of Moses. The Bountiful temple in the BOM was built during this time, before the time of Christ. Is there a mention from Mormon or Moroni or any indication at all regarding their time.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 3:55 pm
by Libertas Est Salus
Shawn Henry wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:51 pm
Libertas Est Salus wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:28 pm It seems the Book of Mormon makes a point to describe how the resurrected Lord appeared at the temple, and that over the subsequent days and visits between the Lord and the Lehites, the meeting place was the temple. If I'm not mistaken.

I'm not saying that disproves your point. This topic is something that's been on my mind for a few months and something that's gonna take me a while to sort out, I'm sure.
It was rightfully important during the Law of Moses. The Bountiful temple in the BOM was built during this time, before the time of Christ. Is there a mention from Mormon or Moroni or any indication at all regarding their time.
Not that I can think of. I look forward to the discussion developing, to see if anyone can't point out any examples.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 3:58 pm
by Shawn Henry
sushi_chef wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:43 pm and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple, when it is finished, a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation.
Sushi, I'm guessing you quoted all that just to show that JS taught a temple is where we offer up an offering in righteousness?

That is indeed where animals were sacrificed, except when a temple wasn't an option like with Lehi in the wilderness, but offering up a broken heart and a contrite spirit isn't at all connected to a building.

You quickly jump to a counter, but I would love to hear your interpretation of those revelation verses.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 3:59 pm
by blitzinstripes
Shawn Henry wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:49 pm
Telavian wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:24 pm Temples are also mentioned in the Book of Mormon several times.
Yes, during the time of the Law of Moses. Are there references after 3rd Nephi, after the Law was done away?
I believe you are correct in your assessment. However I think that in order to keep a.proper timeline perspective here, following the Lord's visit there was a period of peace and righteousness (I'd have to check the timeline for approximate duration) but there's comparatively little discussion about that time period. When that period ended and the backsliding began again in earnest (pride cycle) they regressed extremely quickly into a period of intense wars and destruction. Leaving the final chapters of the BofM devoted to Moroni's warnings to us, Ether, and the sad finale of the Nephite destruction.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 3:59 pm
by Shawn Henry
Libertas Est Salus wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:55 pm Not that I can think of. I look forward to the discussion developing, to see if anyone can't point out any examples.
Yeah, me too. I'm like you, just tackling this for the first time.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 4:04 pm
by blitzinstripes
Shawn Henry wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:58 pm
sushi_chef wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:43 pm and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple, when it is finished, a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation.
Sushi, I'm guessing you quoted all that just to show that JS taught a temple is where we offer up an offering in righteousness?

That is indeed where animals were sacrificed, except when a temple wasn't an option like with Lehi in the wilderness, but offering up a broken heart and a contrite spirit isn't at all connected to a building.

You quickly jump to a counter, but I would love to hear your interpretation of those revelation verses.
Many of the Lord's most wonderful manifestations did not happen in temples, but rather on mountain tops. There was a perfectly good temple in Jerusalem (corrupt but Jesus had all the keys and it was His temple and it was there....) But Moses and Elias appeared instead on the mount of transfiguration.

Buildings are not necessary.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 4:08 pm
by sushi_chef
let each of us have that joy in the vicarious works for the dead .. !!
let each of us be one of those sons of god .. !!

kinda remembers had/felt a tremendous joy at the time of the ward temple night endowment ..
that was some time in the latter half of 1990s ..
:arrow:

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 4:34 pm
by Telavian
Shawn Henry wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:49 pm Yes, during the time of the Law of Moses. Are there references after 3rd Nephi, after the Law was done away?
I think this is a little disingenuous honestly.

Almost all of the Book of Mormon is before this point. What we have after 3rd Nephi it is a large period of peace and happiness yet almost nothing was recorded. After this we have a lot of wars and wickedness. Even if temples were after this point, then they would have to be in the 4th Nephi period to have any validity.

Therefore I don't think the "no temples after Christ" argument really means anything according to the Book of Mormon.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 4:51 pm
by JuneBug12000
Both NT and D&C 93 say we are the temple of God.

Both the temples at Jerusalem and Bountiful are destroyed at Jesus' death.

I believe the temple as a building is an OT law.

Paul says God does not dwell in temples made by mans hands nor any of their physical idols.
Acts 17: 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 5:06 pm
by ransomme
Shawn Henry wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:59 pm
Libertas Est Salus wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:55 pm Not that I can think of. I look forward to the discussion developing, to see if anyone can't point out any examples.
Yeah, me too. I'm like you, just tackling this for the first time.
You know that I know how you interpret this, which is the last reference of "temple" in the BoM,

THIRD NEPHI
THE BOOK OF NEPHI
THE SON OF NEPHI, WHO WAS THE SON OF HELAMAN
CHAPTER 24
And it came to pass that he commanded them that they should write the words which the Father had given unto Malachi, which he should tell unto them. And it came to pass that after they were written he expounded them. And these are the words which he did tell unto them, saying: Thus said the Father unto Malachi—Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in; behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of Hosts.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 6:15 pm
by BuriedTartaria
I see we’re completely ignoring Ezekiel’s extensive writing on a great end of days Jerusalem temple. Anything to push the narrative.


Breakdown of areas of temple provided by; https://www.biblica.com/bible/?osis=niv ... 80%9342:20

In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the fall of the city—on that very day the hand of the Lord was on me and he took me there. In visions of God he took me to the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, on whose south side were some buildings that looked like a city. He took me there, and I saw a man whose appearance was like bronze; he was standing in the gateway with a linen cord and a measuring rod in his hand. The man said to me, “Son of man, look carefully and listen closely and pay attention to everything I am going to show you, for that is why you have been brought here. Tell the people of Israel everything you see.”

The East Gate to the Outer Court

I saw a wall completely surrounding the temple area. The length of the measuring rod in the man’s hand was six long cubits, each of which was a cubit and a handbreadth. He measured the wall; it was one measuring rod thick and one rod high.

Then he went to the east gate. He climbed its steps and measured the threshold of the gate; it was one rod deep. The alcoves for the guards were one rod long and one rod wide, and the projecting walls between the alcoves were five cubits thick. And the threshold of the gate next to the portico facing the temple was one rod deep.

Then he measured the portico of the gateway; it was eight cubits deep and its jambs were two cubits thick. The portico of the gateway faced the temple.

Inside the east gate were three alcoves on each side; the three had the same measurements, and the faces of the projecting walls on each side had the same measurements. Then he measured the width of the entrance of the gateway; it was ten cubits and its length was thirteen cubits. In front of each alcove was a wall one cubit high, and the alcoves were six cubits square. Then he measured the gateway from the top of the rear wall of one alcove to the top of the opposite one; the distance was twenty-five cubits from one parapet opening to the opposite one. He measured along the faces of the projecting walls all around the inside of the gateway—sixty cubits. The measurement was up to the portico facing the courtyard. The distance from the entrance of the gateway to the far end of its portico was fifty cubits. The alcoves and the projecting walls inside the gateway were surmounted by narrow parapet openings all around, as was the portico; the openings all around faced inward. The faces of the projecting walls were decorated with palm trees.

The Outer Court

Then he brought me into the outer court. There I saw some rooms and a pavement that had been constructed all around the court; there were thirty rooms along the pavement. It abutted the sides of the gateways and was as wide as they were long; this was the lower pavement. Then he measured the distance from the inside of the lower gateway to the outside of the inner court; it was a hundred cubits on the east side as well as on the north.

The North Gate

Then he measured the length and width of the north gate, leading into the outer court. Its alcoves—three on each side—its projecting walls and its portico had the same measurements as those of the first gateway. It was fifty cubits long and twenty-five cubits wide. Its openings, its portico and its palm tree decorations had the same measurements as those of the gate facing east. Seven steps led up to it, with its portico opposite them. There was a gate to the inner court facing the north gate, just as there was on the east. He measured from one gate to the opposite one; it was a hundred cubits.

The South Gate

Then he led me to the south side and I saw the south gate. He measured its jambs and its portico, and they had the same measurements as the others. The gateway and its portico had narrow openings all around, like the openings of the others. It was fifty cubits long and twenty-five cubits wide. Seven steps led up to it, with its portico opposite them; it had palm tree decorations on the faces of the projecting walls on each side. The inner court also had a gate facing south, and he measured from this gate to the outer gate on the south side; it was a hundred cubits.

The Gates to the Inner Court

Then he brought me into the inner court through the south gate, and he measured the south gate; it had the same measurements as the others. Its alcoves, its projecting walls and its portico had the same measurements as the others. The gateway and its portico had openings all around. It was fifty cubits long and twenty-five cubits wide. (The porticoes of the gateways around the inner court were twenty-five cubits wide and five cubits deep.) Its portico faced the outer court; palm trees decorated its jambs, and eight steps led up to it.

Then he brought me to the inner court on the east side, and he measured the gateway; it had the same measurements as the others. Its alcoves, its projecting walls and its portico had the same measurements as the others. The gateway and its portico had openings all around. It was fifty cubits long and twenty-five cubits wide. Its portico faced the outer court; palm trees decorated the jambs on either side, and eight steps led up to it.

Then he brought me to the north gate and measured it. It had the same measurements as the others, as did its alcoves, its projecting walls and its portico, and it had openings all around. It was fifty cubits long and twenty-five cubits wide. Its portico faced the outer court; palm trees decorated the jambs on either side, and eight steps led up to it.

The Rooms for Preparing Sacrifices

A room with a doorway was by the portico in each of the inner gateways, where the burnt offerings were washed. In the portico of the gateway were two tables on each side, on which the burnt offerings, sin offerings and guilt offerings were slaughtered. By the outside wall of the portico of the gateway, near the steps at the entrance of the north gateway were two tables, and on the other side of the steps were two tables. So there were four tables on one side of the gateway and four on the other—eight tables in all—on which the sacrifices were slaughtered. There were also four tables of dressed stone for the burnt offerings, each a cubit and a half long, a cubit and a half wide and a cubit high. On them were placed the utensils for slaughtering the burnt offerings and the other sacrifices. And double-pronged hooks, each a handbreadth long, were attached to the wall all around. The tables were for the flesh of the offerings.

The Rooms for the Priests

Outside the inner gate, within the inner court, were two rooms, one at the side of the north gate and facing south, and another at the side of the south gate and facing north. He said to me, “The room facing south is for the priests who guard the temple, and the room facing north is for the priests who guard the altar. These are the sons of Zadok, who are the only Levites who may draw near to the Lord to minister before him.”

Then he measured the court: It was square—a hundred cubits long and a hundred cubits wide. And the altar was in front of the temple.

The New Temple

He brought me to the portico of the temple and measured the jambs of the portico; they were five cubits wide on either side. The width of the entrance was fourteen cubits and its projecting walls were three cubits wide on either side. The portico was twenty cubits wide, and twelve cubits from front to back. It was reached by a flight of stairs, and there were pillars on each side of the jambs.

Then the man brought me to the main hall and measured the jambs; the width of the jambs was six cubits on each side. The entrance was ten cubits wide, and the projecting walls on each side of it were five cubits wide. He also measured the main hall; it was forty cubits long and twenty cubits wide.

Then he went into the inner sanctuary and measured the jambs of the entrance; each was two cubits wide. The entrance was six cubits wide, and the projecting walls on each side of it were seven cubits wide. And he measured the length of the inner sanctuary; it was twenty cubits, and its width was twenty cubits across the end of the main hall. He said to me, “This is the Most Holy Place.”

Then he measured the wall of the temple; it was six cubits thick, and each side room around the temple was four cubits wide. The side rooms were on three levels, one above another, thirty on each level. There were ledges all around the wall of the temple to serve as supports for the side rooms, so that the supports were not inserted into the wall of the temple. The side rooms all around the temple were wider at each successive level. The structure surrounding the temple was built in ascending stages, so that the rooms widened as one went upward. A stairway went up from the lowest floor to the top floor through the middle floor.

I saw that the temple had a raised base all around it, forming the foundation of the side rooms. It was the length of the rod, six long cubits. The outer wall of the side rooms was five cubits thick. The open area between the side rooms of the temple and the priests’ rooms was twenty cubits wide all around the temple. There were entrances to the side rooms from the open area, one on the north and another on the south; and the base adjoining the open area was five cubits wide all around.

The building facing the temple courtyard on the west side was seventy cubits wide. The wall of the building was five cubits thick all around, and its length was ninety cubits.

Then he measured the temple; it was a hundred cubits long, and the temple courtyard and the building with its walls were also a hundred cubits long. The width of the temple courtyard on the east, including the front of the temple, was a hundred cubits.

Then he measured the length of the building facing the courtyard at the rear of the temple, including its galleries on each side; it was a hundred cubits.

The main hall, the inner sanctuary and the portico facing the court, as well as the thresholds and the narrow windows and galleries around the three of them—everything beyond and including the threshold was covered with wood. The floor, the wall up to the windows, and the windows were covered. In the space above the outside of the entrance to the inner sanctuary and on the walls at regular intervals all around the inner and outer sanctuary were carved cherubim and palm trees. Palm trees alternated with cherubim. Each cherub had two faces: the face of a human being toward the palm tree on one side and the face of a lion toward the palm tree on the other. They were carved all around the whole temple. From the floor to the area above the entrance, cherubim and palm trees were carved on the wall of the main hall.

The main hall had a rectangular doorframe, and the one at the front of the Most Holy Place was similar. There was a wooden altar three cubits high and two cubits square; its corners, its base and its sides were of wood. The man said to me, “This is the table that is before the Lord.” Both the main hall and the Most Holy Place had double doors. Each door had two leaves—two hinged leaves for each door. And on the doors of the main hall were carved cherubim and palm trees like those carved on the walls, and there was a wooden overhang on the front of the portico. On the sidewalls of the portico were narrow windows with palm trees carved on each side. The side rooms of the temple also had overhangs.

The Rooms for the Priests

Then the man led me northward into the outer court and brought me to the rooms opposite the temple courtyard and opposite the outer wall on the north side. The building whose door faced north was a hundred cubits long and fifty cubits wide. Both in the section twenty cubits from the inner court and in the section opposite the pavement of the outer court, gallery faced gallery at the three levels. In front of the rooms was an inner passageway ten cubits wide and a hundred cubits long. Their doors were on the north. Now the upper rooms were narrower, for the galleries took more space from them than from the rooms on the lower and middle floors of the building. The rooms on the top floor had no pillars, as the courts had; so they were smaller in floor space than those on the lower and middle floors. There was an outer wall parallel to the rooms and the outer court; it extended in front of the rooms for fifty cubits. While the row of rooms on the side next to the outer court was fifty cubits long, the row on the side nearest the sanctuary was a hundred cubits long. The lower rooms had an entrance on the east side as one enters them from the outer court.

On the south side along the length of the wall of the outer court, adjoining the temple courtyard and opposite the outer wall, were rooms with a passageway in front of them. These were like the rooms on the north; they had the same length and width, with similar exits and dimensions. Similar to the doorways on the north were the doorways of the rooms on the south. There was a doorway at the beginning of the passageway that was parallel to the corresponding wall extending eastward, by which one enters the rooms.

Then he said to me, “The north and south rooms facing the temple courtyard are the priests’ rooms, where the priests who approach the Lord will eat the most holy offerings. There they will put the most holy offerings—the grain offerings, the sin offerings and the guilt offerings—for the place is holy. Once the priests enter the holy precincts, they are not to go into the outer court until they leave behind the garments in which they minister, for these are holy. They are to put on other clothes before they go near the places that are for the people.”

When he had finished measuring what was inside the temple area, he led me out by the east gate and measured the area all around: He measured the east side with the measuring rod; it was five hundred cubits. He measured the north side; it was five hundred cubits by the measuring rod. He measured the south side; it was five hundred cubits by the measuring rod. Then he turned to the west side and measured; it was five hundred cubits by the measuring rod. So he measured the area on all four sides. It had a wall around it, five hundred cubits long and five hundred cubits wide, to separate the holy from the common.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 6:38 pm
by blitzinstripes
JuneBug12000 wrote: September 21st, 2023, 4:51 pm Both NT and D&C 93 say we are the temple of God.

Both the temples at Jerusalem and Bountiful are destroyed at Jesus' death.

I believe the temple as a building is an OT law.

Paul says God does not dwell in temples made by mans hands nor any of their physical idols.
Acts 17: 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.
I agree that needing to "house" the Spirit of God in an ark, a physical temple, or tabernacle feels like a very Mosaic tradition and falls far short of Christ's New Testament teachings. The law of Moses was given to an underprepared people who had lived among pagan idol worship for 400 years and were incapable of grasping higher spiritual concepts. A golden calf of sorts, so they could relate God to something temporal.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 7:18 pm
by RosyPosy
I lack the knowledge to give you an answer. But my hats off to you, that's a gospel question I never thought of.

Personally I never found any blessings in the modern day temples. The ceremonies just left me confused. And every time I would attend the temple I felt like my arm was being twisted.

Could the need for temples end with Christ's fulfillment of the atonement? Much like animal sacrifice was no longer needed?

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 10:32 pm
by Teancum1
Isaiah shared this in chapter 66- This is taken from the Gileadi translation.
Isaiah 66
Cultic practices and persecution by ecclesiastical leaders coincide with Zion’s rebirth before Jehovah comes.
1 Thus says Jehovah:
The heavens are my throne
and the earth is my footstool.
What house would you build me?
What would serve me as a place of rest?
2 These are all things my hand has made,
and thus all came into being, says Jehovah.
And yet I have regard for those
who are of a humble and contrite spirit
and who are vigilant for my word.
3 But whoever slaughters an ox
is as one who kills a man,
and whoever sacrifices a lamb,
as one who breaks a dog’s neck;
whoever presents a grain offering
is as one who offers swine’s blood,
and whoever burns incense,
as one who venerates idols.
Just as they have preferred to go their own ways,
their souls delighting in their abominations,
4 so will I prescribe intrigues for them
and bring upon them the thing they dread.
For when I called, no one responded;
when I spoke, none gave heed.
They did what was evil in my eyes;
they chose to do what was not my will.
5 Hear the word of Jehovah,
you who are vigilant for his word:
Your brethren who abhor you,
and exclude you because of my name, say,
Let Jehovah manifest his glory,
that we may see cause for your joy!
But it is they who shall suffer shame.
6 Hark, a tumult from the city, a noise from the temple!
It is the voice of Jehovah
paying his enemies what is due them.

Verse 1 he asks- “what house would you build me?”
Verse 2- He states, “ these things” or the materials used to build his house - are already what His hands have made.
God already controls the universe- all things are made by Him- all things exist because of Him- what could man build that is more than what God has created?
Verse 2- states his regard for those who are humble and contrite and vigilant for his word.

He then excoriates those who offer sacrifices that are meaningless and states - “ they have preferred to go their own ways, their souls delighting in their abominations”.
Apparently the worship in buildings made by men is lacking a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

Verse 6 states that the voice of Jehovah will pay his enemies their due at their temple

Not a flattering description of the saints in the end times or the saints in the former times.

In verse 5, which is quite damning, He also seems to indicate that the ecclesiastical leadership will”abhor” and “exclude” those who are vigilant for His word. Seems that this is going on now- think Elder Hainey talk amongst others.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 10:43 pm
by Teancum1
I don’t know how to answer your question Shawn. All I used to believe has been clouded due to the many lies and false narratives the church has given. I feel I cannot trust much of the “history” the church puts out. So much is distorted and removed/added to craft their story.
I do believe that somehow eternal relationships must be done in a way that God prescribes but I do not know what this looks like.
Currently I tend to lean toward offering ourselves as a sacrifice with a broken heart and contrite spirit. We should be giving up our flesh- the weakness of our human desires- to make room for the Spirit of God to dwell in us- to change us into Holy Spiritual Beings.
I do not see much in the Book of Mormon after Christ came regarding temples. There is little written after Christs appearance except war and death and apostasy.
I tend to believe that there will not be a temple on earth during the millennium- at least not what men have built with their hands. Jesus is the temple-

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 21st, 2023, 11:17 pm
by FrankOne
ransomme wrote: September 21st, 2023, 5:06 pm
Shawn Henry wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:59 pm
Libertas Est Salus wrote: September 21st, 2023, 3:55 pm Not that I can think of. I look forward to the discussion developing, to see if anyone can't point out any examples.
Yeah, me too. I'm like you, just tackling this for the first time.
You know that I know how you interpret this, which is the last reference of "temple" in the BoM,

THIRD NEPHI
THE BOOK OF NEPHI
THE SON OF NEPHI, WHO WAS THE SON OF HELAMAN
CHAPTER 24
And it came to pass that he commanded them that they should write the words which the Father had given unto Malachi, which he should tell unto them. And it came to pass that after they were written he expounded them. And these are the words which he did tell unto them, saying: Thus said the Father unto Malachi—Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in; behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of Hosts.
After reading the preceding posts, I was just looking that up.."suddenly come to his temple". Apparently this is a reference to Christ coming after John as the messenger. This is detailed in mathew 11 in Christ's words.

I speculate that this will repeat but that the temple that Christ comes to the next time will be those that are willing to accept him as their guide. We are to be the temple of Christ. I expect that the millennial time will , in fact, be a quantum leap from where we are now which is described in LDS teachings as "terrestrial" . Christ being the inner guide at that time.

I would guess there will be 'sacred' buildings in the future, but I'm not one that believes that modern temples are any different than a home that is dedicated to Christ.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 22nd, 2023, 9:09 am
by Mindfields
Latter-day temples are a great deception to Mormons. They spend their time and money "saving" the dead while ignoring the living. The dead need nothing from the living but those living do. Let the dead bury the dead.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 22nd, 2023, 11:37 am
by Shawn Henry
ransomme wrote: September 21st, 2023, 5:06 pm and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his temple
That's a good scripture, it fits here, I just see it's meaning going either way though.

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 22nd, 2023, 11:42 am
by Shawn Henry
BuriedTartaria wrote: September 21st, 2023, 6:15 pm I see we’re completely ignoring Ezekiel’s extensive writing on a great end of days Jerusalem temple.
Definitely not ignoring it, just wasn't aware of it. Thanks for adding it to the dialogue.

It unfortunately does not come with an interpretation. Supposing it is a vision of the last days, it wouldn't necessarily be an endorsement. He could simply have been shown apostate Jews building an apostate temple. After all, they are hell bent on building one.

Also, why would John say he saw no temple?

Re: "And I saw no temple therein"

Posted: September 22nd, 2023, 11:45 am
by Shawn Henry
Teancum1 wrote: September 21st, 2023, 10:32 pm Verse 1 he asks- “what house would you build me?”
Verse 2- He states, “ these things” or the materials used to build his house - are already what His hands have made.
God already controls the universe- all things are made by Him- all things exist because of Him- what could man build that is more than what God has created?
Verse 2- states his regard for those who are humble and contrite and vigilant for his word.

He then excoriates those who offer sacrifices that are meaningless and states - “ they have preferred to go their own ways, their souls delighting in their abominations”.
Apparently the worship in buildings made by men is lacking a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

Verse 6 states that the voice of Jehovah will pay his enemies their due at their temple

Not a flattering description of the saints in the end times or the saints in the former times.

In verse 5, which is quite damning, He also seems to indicate that the ecclesiastical leadership will”abhor” and “exclude” those who are vigilant for His word. Seems that this is going on now- think Elder Hainey talk amongst others.
Thanks for adding that. It seems this portion of Isaiah is saying he needs to temple.

I can't help but seeing verse 6 as a future earthquake that brings down the Salt Lake Temple.