LDS Freedom Forum

Since the angel Moroni first appeared to Joseph Smith the Prophet, and committed to him the knowledge which set the ball of the great work of the last days rolling.

His words to Joseph Smith on that occasion:

D&C 2
1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.
3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.

Luke wrote: ↑September 21st, 2023, 2:26 pm Since the angel Moroni first appeared to Joseph Smith the Prophet, and committed to him the knowledge which set the ball of the great work of the last days rolling.

His words to Joseph Smith on that occasion:

D&C 2
1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.
3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.

If Elijah truly did this, why then are no hearts turned? Why complete apostacy? Are we to believe that he came just to fail?

Either he was 200 years premature and failed or this has yet to be fulfilled.

2023 Defending the Book of Mormon Conference by FAIR, all sessions streaming on YouThemTube.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 12:40 pm

Luke wrote: ↑September 21st, 2023, 2:26 pm Since the angel Moroni first appeared to Joseph Smith the Prophet, and committed to him the knowledge which set the ball of the great work of the last days rolling.

His words to Joseph Smith on that occasion:

D&C 2
1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.
3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.

If Elijah truly did this, why then are no hearts turned? Why complete apostacy? Are we to believe that he came just to fail?

Either he was 200 years premature and failed or this has yet to be fulfilled.

Didn't JS say, in a talk not long before his death, something about Elijah's coming, only he said it as if it hadn't happened yet? Seems like I heard and read this. Hm. I don't even know where to look to find that.

And the scripture does say "will" and "he shall" - so it was obviously in the future at the time of that scripture. Perhaps it will happen after the majority of the most wicked are destroyed? Or maybe it's already happening, but only those it's happening to are aware of it?

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 12:40 pm

Luke wrote: ↑September 21st, 2023, 2:26 pm Since the angel Moroni first appeared to Joseph Smith the Prophet, and committed to him the knowledge which set the ball of the great work of the last days rolling.

His words to Joseph Smith on that occasion:

D&C 2
1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.
3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.

If Elijah truly did this, why then are no hearts turned? Why complete apostacy? Are we to believe that he came just to fail?

Either he was 200 years premature and failed or this has yet to be fulfilled.

Just because the LDS Church went into apostasy, didn’t mean that the Priesthood didn’t remain on earth, though it “hung by a thread” at one point. The Work of the Father continues today.

Luke wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 1:30 pm Just because the LDS Church went into apostasy, didn’t mean that the Priesthood didn’t remain on earth, though it “hung by a thread” at one point. The Work of the Father continues today.

Could be, but there's definitely no stone rolling down a mountain, not yet anyway.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 1:58 pm

Luke wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 1:30 pm Just because the LDS Church went into apostasy, didn’t mean that the Priesthood didn’t remain on earth, though it “hung by a thread” at one point. The Work of the Father continues today.

Could be, but there's definitely no stone rolling down a mountain, not yet anyway.

Not yet, but there’s a little momentum. With God’s blessing, it will soon begin to consume the whole earth.

I'm not sure what it means to have the Priesthood on the earth. Where is it and who holds it? If the President of the church, the holder of the Priesthood keys, is unable to exercise his Priesthood power to cure the common covid then it does not bode well for the "lesser" members and their Priesthood.

I believe the scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon. The book of 4 Nephi describes a righteous people where the Priesthood is used to heal the blind and th deaf. Is this what we see today? Why?

Mike

The priesthood in the Mormon church is hierarchical and nothing more than a mechanism for manipulation and control. It serves no other purpose. Faith will heal the sick and afflicted.

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 8:37 am I'm not sure what it means to have the Priesthood on the earth. Where is it and who holds it? If the President of the church, the holder of the Priesthood keys, is unable to exercise his Priesthood power to cure the common covid then it does not bode well for the "lesser" members and their Priesthood.

I believe the scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon. The book of 4 Nephi describes a righteous people where the Priesthood is used to heal the blind and th deaf. Is this what we see today? Why?

Mike

Is the President of the Church necessarily the holder of the keys?

• “Joseph presided over the Church, by the voice of the Church.
  Perhaps it may make some of you stumble, were I to ask you a question—Does a man’s being a Prophet in this Church prove that he shall be the President of it? I answer, no! A man may be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and it may have nothing to do with his being the President of the Church. Suffice it to say, that Joseph was the President of the Church, as long as he lived: the people chose to have it so. He always filled that responsible station, by the voice of the people. Can you find any revelation appointing him the President of the Church? The keys of the Priesthood were committed to Joseph, to build up the Kingdom of God on the earth, and were not to be taken from him in time or in eternity; but when he was called to preside over the Church, it was by the voice of the people; though he held the keys of the Priesthood, independent of their voice.” — Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses vol. 1 <6 April 1853> page 133)

From this we can see that the Keyholder and the President of the Church need not be the same person. And from 19 November 1918 at the very latest, they have not been.

Luke wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 10:16 am

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 8:37 am I'm not sure what it means to have the Priesthood on the earth. Where is it and who holds it? If the President of the church, the holder of the Priesthood keys, is unable to exercise his Priesthood power to cure the common covid then it does not bode well for the "lesser" members and their Priesthood.

I believe the scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon. The book of 4 Nephi describes a righteous people where the Priesthood is used to heal the blind and th deaf. Is this what we see today? Why?

Mike

Is the President of the Church necessarily the holder of the keys?

• “Joseph presided over the Church, by the voice of the Church.
  Perhaps it may make some of you stumble, were I to ask you a question—Does a man’s being a Prophet in this Church prove that he shall be the President of it? I answer, no! A man may be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and it may have nothing to do with his being the President of the Church. Suffice it to say, that Joseph was the President of the Church, as long as he lived: the people chose to have it so. He always filled that responsible station, by the voice of the people. Can you find any revelation appointing him the President of the Church? The keys of the Priesthood were committed to Joseph, to build up the Kingdom of God on the earth, and were not to be taken from him in time or in eternity; but when he was called to preside over the Church, it was by the voice of the people; though he held the keys of the Priesthood, independent of their voice.” — Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses vol. 1 <6 April 1853> page 133)

From this we can see that the Keyholder and the President of the Church need not be the same person. And from 19 November 1918 at the very latest, they have not been.

I guess the ultimate keeper of the keys is Christ. RMN claims to hold the Priesthood and it is irrelevant if he holds the keys or not. As the President of the church he should have asked the members to exercise their faith/Priesthood when dealing with illness and not on sorcery/pharma.

Mike

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 12:40 pm

Luke wrote: ↑September 21st, 2023, 2:26 pm Since the angel Moroni first appeared to Joseph Smith the Prophet, and committed to him the knowledge which set the ball of the great work of the last days rolling.

His words to Joseph Smith on that occasion:

D&C 2
1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.
3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.

If Elijah truly did this, why then are no hearts turned? Why complete apostacy? Are we to believe that he came just to fail?

Either he was 200 years premature and failed or this has yet to be fulfilled.

You are blinded by isolationism.
Just because it is not happening in your home or your part of the world doesnt mean it aint happening in other parts.

Americans are foolish to think the world revolves around them, we are the very ones who put the church in to apostasy. It is mostly the faith and charity of non‐american saints that are holding it together.

BTW, through JS the priesthood is restored and was a blessing in my own household until i went inactive. Now i see the difference of what a home with and without the priesthood is like...I want the blessings back, those same blessings my anti-mormon ex says she never seen or thinks existed. Its all about faith, some have it some dont.

I never truly understood this scripture. What promises were made to the fathers? Who are the fathers? Some of God's promises are conditional and some are not. Many LDS would begin talking about genealogy and temple ordinances at this point but I'm not so sure about that. The idea that the actions of a mortal can affect the future of the deceased? If that's the case, the deceased are in a lot of trouble.

Mike

In honor of 200 Years since Moroni, here are his words ...



35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

tribrac wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 2:03 pm In honor of 200 Years since Moroni, here are his words ...



35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

I must have read these words dozens of times and yet they seem more poignant every time I read them.

Mike

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 12:02 pm I never truly understood this scripture. What promises were made to the fathers? Who are the fathers? Some of God's promises are conditional and some are not. Many LDS would begin talking about genealogy and temple ordinances at this point but I'm not so sure about that. The idea that the actions of a mortal can affect the future of the deceased? If that's the case, the deceased are in a lot of trouble.

Mike

What if the fathers are the Fathers? In other words, Adam, Enoch, and so on. The righteous men to whom God made promises about the latter days. What if it is them our hearts need to turn to, and to be sealed to? What if us sealing ourselves to our ancestors is essentially sealing ourselves to the damned (in both directions; them/us)?

I think this has been fulfilled in spades --- even outside the church. Interest in ancestors is everywhere, and the capability of learning about them has flooded the earth. It goes without saying that the fathers' hearts are turned to us.

A woman let us in in Hameln (the Pied Piper town we call Hamelin in English). Her face lit up as she told us about ordering and getting microfiche rolls every week at the family History center in Hannover. She showed us books she had written about many of her ancestors, along with pictures of them, places they had lived, etc. She was animated and excited. She told us she was just passionate about genealogy, and had no intention of joining the church. I asked her where she thought this drive and compulsion came from, and she had no idea. We read with her the version in Joseph Smith's testimony (pamphlet form) of Moroni's visit, and told her that she, and thousands like her, are direct fulfillment of the hearts of the children being turned to their father's, and the hearts of the father's being turned to their children. That was in the 1990s.

Yes, I would say there is no warrant to the claim that this hasn't been fulfilled at all, or isn't in the process of being fulfilled.

John the Baptist is an Elisha and I believe Joseph Smith is that Elijah.

Joseph Smith is the Elijah in Malachi. ... Joseph Smith was visited by angels just as Elijah was feed by birds.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-07-25/

Elijah, Elisha, redeemer pattern. Elijah is a type for Joseph Smith.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-07-18/

Malachi 4 sending Elijah. Printer sometimes copied KJV Bible instead of manuscript. D&C 2 reveal unto you the priesthood. Joseph brought back the priesthood. D&C 13 priesthood of Aaron. Merging Malachi 4 and D&C 2. Torah through Moses. Two names depending on who wrote the record. Context is Torah. Elijah here is Joseph Smith. John the baptist is an Elisha.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-06-03/

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 1:58 pm

Luke wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2023, 1:30 pm Just because the LDS Church went into apostasy, didn’t mean that the Priesthood didn’t remain on earth, though it “hung by a thread” at one point. The Work of the Father continues today.

Could be, but there's definitely no stone rolling down a mountain, not yet anyway.

That's because that scripture was never about the Church. It's a reference to Zion.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 25th, 2023, 9:02 pm John the Baptist is an Elisha and I believe Joseph Smith is that Elijah.

Joseph Smith is the Elijah in Malachi. ... Joseph Smith was visited by angels just as Elijah was feed by birds.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-07-25/

Elijah, Elisha, redeemer pattern. Elijah is a type for Joseph Smith.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-07-18/

Malachi 4 sending Elijah. Printer sometimes copied KJV Bible instead of manuscript. D&C 2 reveal unto you the priesthood. Joseph brought back the priesthood. D&C 13 priesthood of Aaron. Merging Malachi 4 and D&C 2. Torah through Moses. Two names depending on who wrote the record. Context is Torah. Elijah here is Joseph Smith. John the baptist is an Elisha.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-06-03/

Joseph didn't believe so. I think Joseph thought of himself coming in the Spirit of Elias

“The spirit of Elias is first, Elijah second, and Messiah last. Elias is a forerunner to prepare the way, and the spirit and power of Elijah is to come after, holding the keys of power, building the Temple to the capstone, placing the seals of the Melchizedek Priesthood upon the house of Israel, and making all things ready; then Messiah comes to His Temple, which is last of all; Elijah was to come and prepare the way and build up the kingdom before the coming of the great day of the Lord, although the spirit of Elias might begin it” [TPJS, pp. 335, 340]

ransomme wrote: ↑September 25th, 2023, 10:41 pm

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 25th, 2023, 9:02 pm John the Baptist is an Elisha and I believe Joseph Smith is that Elijah.

Joseph Smith is the Elijah in Malachi. ... Joseph Smith was visited by angels just as Elijah was feed by birds.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-07-25/

Elijah, Elisha, redeemer pattern. Elijah is a type for Joseph Smith.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-07-18/

Malachi 4 sending Elijah. Printer sometimes copied KJV Bible instead of manuscript. D&C 2 reveal unto you the priesthood. Joseph brought back the priesthood. D&C 13 priesthood of Aaron. Merging Malachi 4 and D&C 2. Torah through Moses. Two names depending on who wrote the record. Context is Torah. Elijah here is Joseph Smith. John the baptist is an Elisha.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-06-03/

Joseph didn't believe so. I think Joseph thought of himself coming in the Spirit of Elias

“The spirit of Elias is first, Elijah second, and Messiah last. Elias is a forerunner to prepare the way, and the spirit and power of Elijah is to come after, holding the keys of power, building the Temple to the capstone, placing the seals of the Melchizedek Priesthood upon the house of Israel, and making all things ready; then Messiah comes to His Temple, which is last of all; Elijah was to come and prepare the way and build up the kingdom before the coming of the great day of the Lord, although the spirit of Elias might begin it” [TPJS, pp. 335, 340]

The problem with these quotes is that different people remember them differently. If you believe everything in the TPJS was authentic JS was a lunatic. I understand if you don't believe me. But BY admits a lot to modifying the records, and others record seeing him doing that. I have a lot of such quotes in this post where I'm expound JS last dream. https://seekingyhwh.org/2023/07/12/jose ... ast-dream/. Not to mention it's pretty simple to look in the biblical record to see that Elijah came before Elisha.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 25th, 2023, 10:59 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑September 25th, 2023, 10:41 pm

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑September 25th, 2023, 9:02 pm John the Baptist is an Elisha and I believe Joseph Smith is that Elijah.

Joseph Smith is the Elijah in Malachi. ... Joseph Smith was visited by angels just as Elijah was feed by birds.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-07-25/

Elijah, Elisha, redeemer pattern. Elijah is a type for Joseph Smith.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-07-18/

Malachi 4 sending Elijah. Printer sometimes copied KJV Bible instead of manuscript. D&C 2 reveal unto you the priesthood. Joseph brought back the priesthood. D&C 13 priesthood of Aaron. Merging Malachi 4 and D&C 2. Torah through Moses. Two names depending on who wrote the record. Context is Torah. Elijah here is Joseph Smith. John the baptist is an Elisha.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-06-03/

Joseph didn't believe so. I think Joseph thought of himself coming in the Spirit of Elias

“The spirit of Elias is first, Elijah second, and Messiah last. Elias is a forerunner to prepare the way, and the spirit and power of Elijah is to come after, holding the keys of power, building the Temple to the capstone, placing the seals of the Melchizedek Priesthood upon the house of Israel, and making all things ready; then Messiah comes to His Temple, which is last of all; Elijah was to come and prepare the way and build up the kingdom before the coming of the great day of the Lord, although the spirit of Elias might begin it” [TPJS, pp. 335, 340]

The problem with these quotes is that different people remember them differently. If you believe everything in the TPJS was authentic JS was a lunatic. I understand if you don't believe me. But BY admits a lot to modifying the records, and others record seeing him doing that. I have a lot of such quotes in this post where I'm expound JS last dream. https://seekingyhwh.org/2023/07/12/jose ... ast-dream/. Not to mention it's pretty simple to look in the biblical record to see that Elijah came before Elisha.

I think it fits, that Elias/Elijah (Greek/Hebrew) doesn't appear until the Endtime is being ushered in. And that it could be John the Beloved.

John was made the ministering angel with the keys. John has the ordinance to gather Israel and restore all things.

D&C 27
"6 And also with Elias, to whom I have
committed the keys of bringing to pass the restoration of all things
spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began,
concerning the last days;"

D&C 7
"1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.
5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.
6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.
7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.
8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired."

D&C 77
"9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse? A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he (John see v.14) to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.
10 Q. What time are the things spoken of in this chapter (Rev. 7) to be accomplished? A. They are to be accomplished in the sixth thousand years, or the opening of the sixth seal.
11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe? A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.
14 What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation? A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things. (fulfilling His covenants with the people of Israel (Ether 4:15-17))"

Since the angel Moroni first appeared to Joseph Smith the Prophet, and committed to him the knowledge which set the ball of the great work of the last days rolling.

or was it Nephi...

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑September 24th, 2023, 12:02 pm I never truly understood this scripture. What promises were made to the fathers? Who are the fathers? Some of God's promises are conditional and some are not. Many LDS would begin talking about genealogy and temple ordinances at this point but I'm not so sure about that. The idea that the actions of a mortal can affect the future of the deceased? If that's the case, the deceased are in a lot of trouble.

Mike

This scripture isn't about genealogy and temple work. The promises that were made to the fathers phrase refers to the covenants made between the Lord and our ancestors (ie the Abrahamic Covenant). The hearts of the overwhelming majority are not turned to these "promises" currently.

Mindfields wrote: ↑September 26th, 2023, 4:35 am

Since the angel Moroni first appeared to Joseph Smith the Prophet, and committed to him the knowledge which set the ball of the great work of the last days rolling.

or was it Nephi...

What if they are one and the same? The prophet who started the Nephites is the one to witness their end, like book ends on a shelf.