LDS Freedom Forum

As I was pondering this morning, a thought came to me about what the process is for defining our belief system and the association that has with scripture. My goal here is to try and find a balance between holding to written beliefs and what you learn outside of the standard works.

I can see the importance of scripture. They lay a great foundation, but we should (hopefully) all understand that they were written by man, and are not always perfect. And I don’t care what book of scripture you want to cite, if it was written by the hand of man, there can always be errors or ways of misinterpreting the intention of the original authors. We each combine our own life paradigms with that of another.

Scriptures do not contain all truth. In reality, compared to the knowledge of God, they are minuscule in the overall compendium of truth. And don’t get me wrong, they are an amazing guide and help us in so many ways, but my fear is that it can be really, really easy to discount various truths or principles just because we don’t see it spelled out the way we interpret certain verses of scripture. In some ways the scriptures can become a type and symbol of the law of Moses. In some ways, we tend to use them to put God in a box.

This is the same concept as prophets. God wants each of us to become prophets and God wants each of us to become living scriptures.

Of course, this is vastly more complicated than it sounds. Scriptures are just one view into what God is and another view can be defined by more scriptures. The great danger is many people go off on their own and start spouting nonsense which they believe as truth. This can get picked up by others and then you get a lot of these mini-prophets popping up.

We all are trying to do good and most sincerely believe what they are teaching so it becomes further complicated.

Yall are getting warmer. Free clue

Ymarsakar wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 9:35 am Yall are getting warmer. Free clue

Indigestion, maybe?

I am not directed to clarify. The great mysteries are for you here to puzzle out.

Neither ur god not mine appreciates mmo rpg kill stealers or too many spoilers

An interesting example of this is that a large proportion of the Christian world are "Cessionists." They believe that the gifts of the spirit have ceased to exist in the churches and that this is NOT the era for that. No prophets, no speaking in tongues, etc. They will quote scripture and early Christian history until the cows come home. (And ignore or explain away any scripture that might indicate that the gifts needed to continue in the church). It's seems an unreasonable stance to me that does indeed put God in a "box," but I can see why they came to that conclusion:

The Pentecostals of this age are a bunch of fruity nut cakes that are an embarrassment to Christianity. (Kenneth Copeland, Julie Green, Robin Bullock, Timothy Dixon, and on and on: They all do so much damage.) So you can throw them all in the box by saying that the gifts don't exist so they are either fakers or deceived. We can expect that something similar was going on following the Apostolic Age, and many false manifestations were going on in and out of the church during Joseph's time frame or he wouldn't have written the essay about "Trying the Spirits." So, if we just say: Nope. It's all fake, we don't have the messiness of trying to sort out who might be true and who might be fake.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... il-1842/13

This is what people usually say when something pleases their ears but is in direct contradiction with the scriptures.....
Its NOT usually something they say when the scriptures are silent on a subject

nightlight wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 5:01 pm This is what people usually say when something pleases their ears but is in direct contradiction with the scriptures.....
Its NOT usually something they say when the scriptures are silent on a subject

How many different ways can the theologies in the scriptures be interpreted? How many times have individual passages of scripture been abused or twisted to strengthen an unfounded principle? It happens all the time.

I could easily go through the BoM and pick a single verse, and then state that progression does not happen after this life. I've had people tell me this and they use the BoM as their reference.

Or, look at how people even here on the forum justify a trinitarian theology based on their viewpoint of the BoM...

Or how we degrade and demean women.

I could go on and on.

The scriptures were meant as a guide, albeit imperfect. To truly understand God, you need to experience God.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 5:17 pm The scriptures were meant as a guide, albeit imperfect. To truly understand God, you need to experience God.

I just posted something similar before seeing this thread. Thinking alike!

Worshipping scriptures is a bit like staying in familiar territory & realizing scriptures are not God is like pioneering to discover new areas. The gospel is good newness/news. A GA once said “we believe (yes herd mentality but hear it out) in being born again & again…”

Searching within is as immense as searching this entire world. We waste time in vain scripture repetitions, especially when some of them are indeed reflective of human imperfection & draw us away, not towards God. The book of life may be our bodies and souls - the scars etc of our cumulative experiences. Why not at least begin to study that!?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 5:17 pm The scriptures were meant as a guide, albeit imperfect. To truly understand God, you need to experience God.

The book was created by the church, not the church by the book.

hopefully scriptures are understood through some gifts ...


"73 Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.

74 Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of. In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owing to a spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the neighborhood.
"
joseph smith history

BringerOfJoy wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 4:13 pm An interesting example of this is that a large proportion of the Christian world are "Cessionists." They believe that the gifts of the spirit have ceased to exist in the churches and that this is NOT the era for that. No prophets, no speaking in tongues, etc. They will quote scripture and early Christian history until the cows come home. (And ignore or explain away any scripture that might indicate that the gifts needed to continue in the church). It's seems an unreasonable stance to me that does indeed put God in a "box," but I can see why they came to that conclusion:

That is exactly what a JWitness said to me. I knew them from several years of bible discussions, they are a good person but susceptible to listening to human authorities and elders.

The people here who react to me with accusations that I am making stuff up about my powahs and skills... they are outing themselves as C.

That JWitness accepts that I have many healing skills or at least won't contend with me over it. That is integrity. THey have their beliefs but they respect mine as well.

Telavian wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 7:29 am This is the same concept as prophets. God wants each of us to become prophets and God wants each of us to become living scriptures.

Of course, this is vastly more complicated than it sounds. Scriptures are just one view into what God is and another view can be defined by more scriptures. The great danger is many people go off on their own and start spouting nonsense which they believe as truth. This can get picked up by others and then you get a lot of these mini-prophets popping up.

We all are trying to do good and most sincerely believe what they are teaching so it becomes further complicated.

I believe any true prophet would first, tell you not to believe them blindly and to seek a witness of all things from God. And two, they would know their true role as a servant and facilitator, and not an infallible dictator.

And yes, when you teach that all men and women can and should be prophets, you get all kinds of people coming out of the woodworks. And therein lies the beauty of all of it. You give the people the right and opportunity for discernment. You teach them one of the most simple, most profound, and most important gifts of all, that of personal revelation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBnaO3AuW8w

Kati at the 1 hour mark starts talking about Jeshua/God within the heart/body temple.

She makes similar points but perhaps they are easier to comprehend than my style.

Civilization 4 song, Baba Yetu. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17svtURunUk

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 5:14 pm

nightlight wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 5:01 pm This is what people usually say when something pleases their ears but is in direct contradiction with the scriptures.....
Its NOT usually something they say when the scriptures are silent on a subject

How many different ways can the theologies in the scriptures be interpreted? How many times have individual passages of scripture been abused or twisted to strengthen an unfounded principle? It happens all the time.

I could easily go through the BoM and pick a single verse, and then state that progression does not happen after this life. I've had people tell me this and they use the BoM as their reference.

Or, look at how people even here on the forum justify a trinitarian theology based on their viewpoint of the BoM...

Or how we degrade and demean women.

I could go on and on.

You could go on and on because your logic is circular

The scriptures may have been written by a man, but you'd know nothing about "eternal progression" if you hadn't read the words of a man who wrote them down.......so..............

Degrade and demean women?????

Women are not meant to lead or govern.
People who put women in positions of leadership and governance are the ones demeaning women.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 16th, 2023, 7:00 am I believe any true prophet would first, tell you not to believe them blindly and to seek a witness of all things from God. And two, they would know their true role as a servant and facilitator, and not an infallible dictator.

And yes, when you teach that all men and women can and should be prophets, you get all kinds of people coming out of the woodworks. And therein lies the beauty of all of it. You give the people the right and opportunity for discernment. You teach them one of the most simple, most profound, and most important gifts of all, that of personal revelation.

That is the key. Turn the power over to the people so they can make the choice. Of course, some will fail however others won't.
Today though we are told that it is too dangerous for us to make our own choices so we must listen to our leaders.

This pattern is replicated at almost every level of our lives.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 5:14 pm Or, look at how people even here on the forum justify a trinitarian theology based on their viewpoint of the BoM...

Well, it's a good thing the BoM teaches clearly that there is just one God.

Seems twisting others' beliefs by rephrasing them in your own language is a daily occurrence for you.

nightlight wrote: ↑September 16th, 2023, 7:59 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 5:14 pm

nightlight wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 5:01 pm This is what people usually say when something pleases their ears but is in direct contradiction with the scriptures.....
Its NOT usually something they say when the scriptures are silent on a subject

How many different ways can the theologies in the scriptures be interpreted? How many times have individual passages of scripture been abused or twisted to strengthen an unfounded principle? It happens all the time.

I could easily go through the BoM and pick a single verse, and then state that progression does not happen after this life. I've had people tell me this and they use the BoM as their reference.

Or, look at how people even here on the forum justify a trinitarian theology based on their viewpoint of the BoM...

Or how we degrade and demean women.

I could go on and on.

You could go on and on because your logic is circular

The scriptures may have been written by a man, but you'd know nothing about "eternal progression" if you hadn't read the words of a man who wrote them down.......so..............

Degrade and demean women?????

Women are not meant to lead or govern.
People who put women in positions of leadership and governance are the ones demeaning women.

How is my logic circular? To suggest that scripture is perfect is idolatry.

And yes, I do believe there is a large amount of truth in them, and that the Lord loves it when we read them. But, what about the person in a distant land that has heard nothing of Jesus? I’m hearing stories of these people having personal encounters with Christ and angels. They are being taught by the Lord Himself. No middleman needed.

And I strongly disagree with your sentiments about women.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 16th, 2023, 8:58 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 5:14 pm Or, look at how people even here on the forum justify a trinitarian theology based on their viewpoint of the BoM...

Well, it's a good thing the BoM teaches clearly that there is just one God.

Seems twisting others' beliefs by rephrasing them in your own language is a daily occurrence for you.

I added that just for you my friend.

I don’t mean to turn this thread into a Father/Son discussion, but how is your viewpoint any different than the trinitarian theology? At minimum you believe that God and Jesus are the same entity.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 7:04 am And I don’t care what book of scripture you want to cite, if it was written by the hand of man

This is the problem when you use man's pattern of saying what scripture is while disregarding God's criteria for what scripture is. The BoM is the only book of scripture that has been established as scripture by God's revealed pattern throughout scripture.

The scriptures also say that God at times writes to us himself, "by the finger of God". There are many times when BoM prophets directly quote Jesus. Yes, they are still written by man technically, but if God can have them deliver his word as directed by the spirit, I'm sure they can also write them down by the spirit.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 16th, 2023, 9:01 am I added that just for you my friend.

I don’t mean to turn this thread into a Father/Son discussion, but how is your viewpoint any different than the trinitarian theology? At minimum you believe that God and Jesus are the same entity.

Right, so I believe in one God. You believe in three. So, the guy who believes in one is called a trinitarian by the guy who believes in three. Might want to rethink that.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 16th, 2023, 9:09 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 7:04 am And I don’t care what book of scripture you want to cite, if it was written by the hand of man

This is the problem when you use man's pattern of saying what scripture is while disregarding God's criteria for what scripture is. The BoM is the only book of scripture that has been established as scripture by God's revealed pattern throughout scripture.

The scriptures also say that God at times writes to us himself, "by the finger of God". There are many times when BoM prophets directly quote Jesus. Yes, they are still written by man technically, but if God can have them deliver his word as directed by the spirit, I'm sure they can also write them down by the spirit.

This is my fear that so many worship the scriptures.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑September 16th, 2023, 9:12 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 16th, 2023, 9:01 am I added that just for you my friend.

I don’t mean to turn this thread into a Father/Son discussion, but how is your viewpoint any different than the trinitarian theology? At minimum you believe that God and Jesus are the same entity.

Right, so I believe in one God. You believe in three. So, the guy who believes in one is called a trinitarian by the guy who believes in three. Might want to rethink that.

The challenge here though is what you extrapolate out of that. You’ve defined an entire theology and “truth” based on your concept of God.

Also, you need to understand the definition of trinitarian:

Trinitarian : relating to belief in the doctrine of the Trinity.

Trinity : the Christian Godhead as one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

See, words matter.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑September 16th, 2023, 9:14 am This is my fear that so many worship the scriptures.

Whether done correctly or not, the command is still to cling to the word of God. I know you want to make sure that we are all listening to the spirit as well and that's perfectly fine, but the only reason we know what the spirit is as to listen to the spirit is because of the word.