Kirton McKonkie Goes Gestapo

[Atrasado]

As for K&M finding out who you are...

They could subpoena the user records for this site...

But why bother when they can just check to see which one of you checks this site from the ward wifi and compare ip addresses to you Gospel Library App.

Good reason not to use liahona WiFi, isn't it?

[Hiker]

As for K&M finding out who you are...

They could subpoena the user records for this site...

But why bother when they can just check to see which one of you checks this site from the ward wifi and compare ip addresses to you Gospel Library App.

Good reason not to use liahona WiFi, isn't it?

I always run a VPN when I'm on the church Wi-Fi

[Silver Pie]

He did. But so did I and several others, though I was stone-cold sober when I posted, so it might have been a little politer than his post. I posted my name and my membership number at the time. Never heard a thing about it.

Sounds like it was more on a personal level than a "look for all the apostates" level, then. I wonder how and why they singled him out.

[Seed Starter]

Don't resign. Make them kick you out. If enough of us did that we could overwhelm them.

Atrasado, had you just been a few minutes earlier with this comment... I literally just printed my letter and will have it notarized before lunch. Our local leaders have no interest in having a conversation with us. FWIW, I've had various drafts of this letter since the beginning of 2023, and I just polished up a bit of the language.

I'll have plenty of opportunities to visit with local members about our decision to leave. We love them. We cherish the good (and bad) memories we've had.

So did you send it?

[Silver Pie]

I was called into my branch Pres office one evening back when I was a young mom & my husband was in residency. He made sure I could come alone & that my husband would be home to watch our kids (which was very rare). I sat and listened to him berate me, telling me “people admire you from a distance but no one here really likes you.” All bc I wouldn’t participate in the other young mom’s play groups bc his son in particular would hit & bite my girls. I knew & still know he was lying bc I had many friends in that branch but I’d be lying to myself if I say it didn’t affect me in a very negative way. He created a silent wedge between me & all who went to church. I Constantly wondered who there hated me & told him so. It still hurts my heart so much bc I desperately needed help & support being alone so much, not able to speak most of their languages, It was a very diverse branch in NY with people from all over the world. I’ve had a hard time trusting church leadership ever since.

Wth?? That sounds like an abuse of authority. I am so sorry you had to go through that.

[Silver Pie]

Oh believe me, I gave him an earful via an email I sent when I got home & sat on what he’d said and he later tried to grovel out an apology. I’ve never taken abuse like the “keep sweet” girls they wish we’d be.

I'm glad you told him what you thought later. He needed to know it was not appropriate.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Don't resign. Make them kick you out. If enough of us did that we could overwhelm them.

Atrasado, had you just been a few minutes earlier with this comment... I literally just printed my letter and will have it notarized before lunch. Our local leaders have no interest in having a conversation with us. FWIW, I've had various drafts of this letter since the beginning of 2023, and I just polished up a bit of the language.

I'll have plenty of opportunities to visit with local members about our decision to leave. We love them. We cherish the good (and bad) memories we've had.

So did you send it?

I’ll write a post about it in the coming days/week, but in short, our records are no longer listed as members in LDS tools. The Membership department was fast.

[Atrasado]

I was called into my branch Pres office one evening back when I was a young mom & my husband was in residency. He made sure I could come alone & that my husband would be home to watch our kids (which was very rare). I sat and listened to him berate me, telling me “people admire you from a distance but no one here really likes you.” All bc I wouldn’t participate in the other young mom’s play groups bc his son in particular would hit & bite my girls. I knew & still know he was lying bc I had many friends in that branch but I’d be lying to myself if I say it didn’t affect me in a very negative way. He created a silent wedge between me & all who went to church. I Constantly wondered who there hated me & told him so. It still hurts my heart so much bc I desperately needed help & support being alone so much, not able to speak most of their languages, It was a very diverse branch in NY with people from all over the world. I’ve had a hard time trusting church leadership ever since.

Wth?? That sounds like an abuse of authority. I am so sorry you had to go through that.

Sounds like he was being a jerk. I understand trust issues.

[Seed Starter]

Atrasado, had you just been a few minutes earlier with this comment... I literally just printed my letter and will have it notarized before lunch. Our local leaders have no interest in having a conversation with us. FWIW, I've had various drafts of this letter since the beginning of 2023, and I just polished up a bit of the language.

I'll have plenty of opportunities to visit with local members about our decision to leave. We love them. We cherish the good (and bad) memories we've had.

So did you send it?

I’ll write a post about it in the coming days/week, but in short, our records are no longer listed as members in LDS tools. The Membership department was fast.

I'm happy for you. I'll look for it when and if you decide to share.

[Chip]

I can't give RFM more than 5 minutes of my eyes and ears either. I'm not a big video watcher as it is, and even less so from folks like him. But yeah RFM gets little to none of my attention and time.

Our 501c3 corporation has built up a true Babylonian empire and more than ANYTHING else, the corp executives fear what that Babylon they've served can do to their empire if they don't toe the line, so to speak. The corp is willing to sacrifice those that open their eyes to the reality of our situation, that secret combinations have infiltrated us and gotten above us. The corp believes a key to keeping their worldly empire are the yes-men, those that do and say whatever comes from SLC without questioning, these yes men make great leaders in the corp's eyes. So in the corporation's mind, it is correct to sacrifice/lose those that are seeing the reality of what's going on with the corp, and in turn to retain those members that willingly and blindly obey SLC. It's truly ran like a worldly global corporation.

I'm very grateful the Lord showed me (this was for ME, not declaring it for others but wouldn't surprise me if other sincere seekers are told/guided similarly) that what's really important in this mortal probation period is my relationship with Him and with my bros and sisters, and what I'm focused on BECOMING, not my relationship with a corporate empire. So this is what I focus on. This is what I hope ALL can come to see, to a degree We don't need loyalty to a corporation, we need loyalty to the Lord and to the truth. Unwavering loyalty to the corp is a big reason we're in the mess we're in.

“But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord”
(Joshua 24:15, NKJV)

Amen!

Here is some GOOD NEWS....

Is she the young Jewish lady that had a direct NDE with God the Father and Jesus? I think I've seen the video going over her experience some time ago.

I don't think so. She has a 24/7 relationship with Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit. She says we all can, as well, and it is God's desire for it to be so.

[larsenb]

. Maybe I'm just getting worked up, but maybe modern people don't take things like free agency and common consent seriously enough.

J. Golden Kimball once said that he prayed that he would never end up being a halfway man. Halfway this, or halfway that. There are a lot of halfway people in this world because it's just so stinkin' hard sometimes. It beats us down. But, maybe, if we really try, we might rise above that.

I was really bothered when the use of "free agency" became virtually taboo, somewhere in the mid-90s. Having agency is something you are given by someone else. You are an agent for them, not yourself, not a free agent.

[larsenb]

Amen!

Here is some GOOD NEWS....

Is she the young Jewish lady that had a direct NDE with God the Father and Jesus? I think I've seen the video going over her experience some time ago.

I don't think so. She has a 24/7 relationship with Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit. She says we all can, as well, and it is God's desire for it to be so.

Yeh, probably not. The woman I saw didn't hide her Jewish background, but had a very similar connection to Jesus. I saw one video on Katie's channel indicating she loved the Shofar, which added fuel to my initial reaction.

[Chip]

Is she the young Jewish lady that had a direct NDE with God the Father and Jesus? I think I've seen the video going over her experience some time ago.

I don't think so. She has a 24/7 relationship with Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit. She says we all can, as well, and it is God's desire for it to be so.

Yeh, probably not. The woman I saw didn't hide her Jewish background, but had a very similar connection to Jesus. I saw one video on Katie's channel indicating she loved the Shofar, which added fuel to my initial reaction.

The shofar has become a thing with most every Christian voice on YouTube who is monitoring our 'awful situation' closely. Of course, the church doesn't recognize our awful situation, since they are helping to create it, so we Mormons don't get reminded of battle cries and shofars. Nothing to see here.

The thrust of what Katie and many other people like her are saying is that religion, with its legalism, has many people in bondage and they are not understanding the Good News of the gospel, that they are saved by grace, alone. Instead, they are immersed in a trap of works and unable to accept the grace that God offers them. Legalism certainly serves institutions, as it keeps people slaving away for man on an endless treadmill.

[Cruiserdude]

I don't think so. She has a 24/7 relationship with Jesus, The Father, and The Holy Spirit. She says we all can, as well, and it is God's desire for it to be so.

Yeh, probably not. The woman I saw didn't hide her Jewish background, but had a very similar connection to Jesus. I saw one video on Katie's channel indicating she loved the Shofar, which added fuel to my initial reaction.

The shofar has become a thing with most every Christian voice on YouTube who is monitoring our 'awful situation' closely. Of course, the church doesn't recognize our awful situation, since they are helping to create it, so we Mormons don't get reminded of battle cries and shofars. Nothing to see here.

The thrust of what Katie and many other people like her are saying is that religion, with its legalism, has many people in bondage and they are not understanding the Good News of the gospel, that they are saved by grace, alone. Instead, they are immersed in a trap of works and unable to accept the grace that God offers them. Legalism certainly serves institutions, as it keeps people slaving away for man on an endless treadmill.

Exactly right, Chip these good folks that know the Lord are trying to help us free ourselves of our unbelief and false traditions with regard to our ability to personally know the Lord and it's working! More and more are waking up to the reality of being able to have a true literal personal relationship with Jeshua, our Lord.

[Chip]

Yeh, probably not. The woman I saw didn't hide her Jewish background, but had a very similar connection to Jesus. I saw one video on Katie's channel indicating she loved the Shofar, which added fuel to my initial reaction.

The shofar has become a thing with most every Christian voice on YouTube who is monitoring our 'awful situation' closely. Of course, the church doesn't recognize our awful situation, since they are helping to create it, so we Mormons don't get reminded of battle cries and shofars. Nothing to see here.

The thrust of what Katie and many other people like her are saying is that religion, with its legalism, has many people in bondage and they are not understanding the Good News of the gospel, that they are saved by grace, alone. Instead, they are immersed in a trap of works and unable to accept the grace that God offers them. Legalism certainly serves institutions, as it keeps people slaving away for man on an endless treadmill.

Exactly right, Chip these good folks that know the Lord are trying to help us free ourselves of our unbelief and false traditions with regard to our ability to personally know the Lord and it's working! More and more are waking up to the reality of being able to have a true literal personal relationship with Jeshua, our Lord.

Yes!!!

It's frustrating how most people just won't get it. It's GOOD NEWS, for Pete's sake! Rejoice and be free in Christ! That's why you're here.

[Seed Starter]

I agree with this guy, but I'm not sure why he's surprised that his mic was cut off. Fast and testimony is not open mic night. Just saying.

I get what you're saying here and he shouldn't have been surprised. However, I don't think it should be this way. If a teen shares his testimony of the Holy Ghost by telling a story of his friends trying to get him to take drugs but then something marvelous happens to help him make the right decision that would be an approved message. He trusted the Spirit more than men as we are taught in scripture.

If an adult gets up and shares his testimony of how the HG led him stop listening to men who are leading him astray and placing him and his brothers and sisters in physical and spiritual danger that is a testimony that should be welcomed. Obviously, you wouldn't waste peoples time with a political or sales message but relating a story how he didn't feel the confirmation of what the prophet said should be welcome. Dealing with doubts is something many leaders have spoken about. How does one deal with doubts if doubts are unwelcome speech in the chapel? How many people sitting in that audience have the same concerns but say or do nothing (yet)? I think it's very unwise not to let the man talk. I think the damage done by seeing his mic get cut is far worse than any damage his testimony may have caused.

The church should be thinking about the long game here. How many fence sitters aren't fence sitters anymore after watching that go down twice and now we all know about it. The guy in charge of that meetinghouse has the last say in what can be spoken at the mic but if we are a church of that honors common consent and even asks who disagrees with x in some of our meetings it shouldn't just be lip service. An issue like the supposed Godsend impacts everyone in that building. If sacrament meeting is the wrong time then where are the Q&A firesides giving members a chance to participate in open conversation about what happened the last few years and how it relates to listening to men over the Spirit? The church can keep trying to run from this issue or face it openly. Getting the church law firm and local police to threaten members is beyond reasonable. This is just another convincer in a long list that the corporate church is falling away.

[ransomme]

I agree with this guy, but I'm not sure why he's surprised that his mic was cut off. Fast and testimony is not open mic night. Just saying.

I get what you're saying here and he shouldn't have been surprised. However, I don't think it should be this way. If a teen shares his testimony of the Holy Ghost by telling a story of his friends trying to get him to take drugs but then something marvelous happens to help him make the right decision that would be an approved message. He trusted the Spirit more than men as we are taught in scripture.

If an adult gets up and shares his testimony of how the HG led him stop listening to men who are leading him astray and placing him and his brothers and sisters in physical and spiritual danger that is a testimony that should be welcomed. Obviously, you wouldn't waste peoples time with a political or sales message but relating a story how he didn't feel the confirmation of what the prophet said should be welcome. Dealing with doubts is something many leaders have spoken about. How does one deal with doubts if doubts are unwelcome speech in the chapel? How many people sitting in that audience have the same concerns but say or do nothing (yet)? I think it's very unwise not to let the man talk. I think the damage done by seeing his mic get cut is far worse than any damage his testimony may have caused.

The church should be thinking about the long game here. How many fence sitters aren't fence sitters anymore after watching that go down twice and now we all know about it. The guy in charge of that meetinghouse has the last say in what can be spoken at the mic but if we are a church of that honors common consent and even asks who disagrees with x in some of our meetings it shouldn't just be lip service. An issue like the supposed Godsend impacts everyone in that building. If sacrament meeting is the wrong time then where are the Q&A firesides giving members a chance to participate in open conversation about what happened the last few years and how it relates to listening to men over the Spirit? The church can keep trying to run from this issue or face it openly. Getting the church law firm and local police to threaten members is beyond reasonable. This is just another convincer in a long list that the corporate church is falling away.

You may wish that, but that's not reality.

Even though I largely agree with the dude's view it was tactless. Actually, It was a major a-hole move. It's like he threw a hand grenade into a room of unsuspecting people.

Seriously, thinking about it again he showed no respect for anyone there. It was all about himself, not Jesus.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Seriously, thinking about it again he showed no respect for anyone there. It was all about himself, not Jesus.

Did you read his entire testimony? It was about Christ. And… I would add, testifying against false prophets is what Christ often did… so again, a message very much centered in Christ.

[Atrasado]

I agree with this guy, but I'm not sure why he's surprised that his mic was cut off. Fast and testimony is not open mic night. Just saying.

I get what you're saying here and he shouldn't have been surprised. However, I don't think it should be this way. If a teen shares his testimony of the Holy Ghost by telling a story of his friends trying to get him to take drugs but then something marvelous happens to help him make the right decision that would be an approved message. He trusted the Spirit more than men as we are taught in scripture.

If an adult gets up and shares his testimony of how the HG led him stop listening to men who are leading him astray and placing him and his brothers and sisters in physical and spiritual danger that is a testimony that should be welcomed. Obviously, you wouldn't waste peoples time with a political or sales message but relating a story how he didn't feel the confirmation of what the prophet said should be welcome. Dealing with doubts is something many leaders have spoken about. How does one deal with doubts if doubts are unwelcome speech in the chapel? How many people sitting in that audience have the same concerns but say or do nothing (yet)? I think it's very unwise not to let the man talk. I think the damage done by seeing his mic get cut is far worse than any damage his testimony may have caused.

The church should be thinking about the long game here. How many fence sitters aren't fence sitters anymore after watching that go down twice and now we all know about it. The guy in charge of that meetinghouse has the last say in what can be spoken at the mic but if we are a church of that honors common consent and even asks who disagrees with x in some of our meetings it shouldn't just be lip service. An issue like the supposed Godsend impacts everyone in that building. If sacrament meeting is the wrong time then where are the Q&A firesides giving members a chance to participate in open conversation about what happened the last few years and how it relates to listening to men over the Spirit? The church can keep trying to run from this issue or face it openly. Getting the church law firm and local police to threaten members is beyond reasonable. This is just another convincer in a long list that the corporate church is falling away.

You may wish that, but that's not reality.

Even though I largely agree with the dude's view it was tactless. Actually, It was a major a-hole move. It's like he threw a hand grenade into a room of unsuspecting people.

Seriously, thinking about it again he showed no respect for anyone there. It was all about himself, not Jesus.

Maybe, maybe not. Mormons avoid rocking the boat, but that doesn't seem like what we should do.

Jesus didn't throw hand grenades at the Jews, he busted out heavy artillery. Whited sepulchers filled with dead man's bones was an insult so offensive to the priests and Pharisees that we likely have no equivalent epithet in modern language.

What did Abinidi, a man with no clerical authority that we know of, do? He told those sinful Nephites so plainly of their wickedness that they ignited wood and burned him to death.

What did Lehi, also a man with no clerical authority that we know of, do? He told the Jews of their iniquity so plainly that they wanted to kill him and probably would have if he hadn't been warned of God to skip town. How about Joseph Smith? How about Paul? Samuel the Lamanite? Alma the Younger?

This man seems like a cuddly little teddy bear compared to them. Honestly, I'm jealous that I haven't done the same, yet. But, I hope to soon.

[Seed Starter]

I agree with this guy, but I'm not sure why he's surprised that his mic was cut off. Fast and testimony is not open mic night. Just saying.

I get what you're saying here and he shouldn't have been surprised. However, I don't think it should be this way. If a teen shares his testimony of the Holy Ghost by telling a story of his friends trying to get him to take drugs but then something marvelous happens to help him make the right decision that would be an approved message. He trusted the Spirit more than men as we are taught in scripture.

If an adult gets up and shares his testimony of how the HG led him stop listening to men who are leading him astray and placing him and his brothers and sisters in physical and spiritual danger that is a testimony that should be welcomed. Obviously, you wouldn't waste peoples time with a political or sales message but relating a story how he didn't feel the confirmation of what the prophet said should be welcome. Dealing with doubts is something many leaders have spoken about. How does one deal with doubts if doubts are unwelcome speech in the chapel? How many people sitting in that audience have the same concerns but say or do nothing (yet)? I think it's very unwise not to let the man talk. I think the damage done by seeing his mic get cut is far worse than any damage his testimony may have caused.

The church should be thinking about the long game here. How many fence sitters aren't fence sitters anymore after watching that go down twice and now we all know about it. The guy in charge of that meetinghouse has the last say in what can be spoken at the mic but if we are a church of that honors common consent and even asks who disagrees with x in some of our meetings it shouldn't just be lip service. An issue like the supposed Godsend impacts everyone in that building. If sacrament meeting is the wrong time then where are the Q&A firesides giving members a chance to participate in open conversation about what happened the last few years and how it relates to listening to men over the Spirit? The church can keep trying to run from this issue or face it openly. Getting the church law firm and local police to threaten members is beyond reasonable. This is just another convincer in a long list that the corporate church is falling away.

You may wish that, but that's not reality.

Even though I largely agree with the dude's view it was tactless. Actually, It was a major a-hole move. It's like he threw a hand grenade into a room of unsuspecting people.

Seriously, thinking about it again he showed no respect for anyone there. It was all about himself, not Jesus.

I'm 100% clear on the reality. I'm talking about what they should do which isn't always associated with reality. Leaders of the LDS church are guilty of every one of the actions listed below and more:

Making a-hole moves
Being tactless
Throwing hand-grenades around unsuspecting people
Showing no respect
Making it all about himself, not Jesus.

This man made the leaders and probably some members uncomfortable. That is the least of my concerns. If this is too hard for members to hear they're in for a very rough time in the days to come. I'm not saying this man is a prophet but many men of God have been silenced and even killed for speaking truth that is contrary to leadership. This man took action at least. What are we to do, let the church crumble until Christ comes or open up our mouths when the Spirit calls us to even if it pisses people off?

[ransomme]

Seriously, thinking about it again he showed no respect for anyone there. It was all about himself, not Jesus.

Did you read his entire testimony? It was about Christ. And… I would add, testifying against false prophets is what Christ often did… so again, a message very much centered in Christ.

It was mingled in there, but you only approach it the way he did if you want a confrontation.

And then he cried about the reaction. That was so ego driven. He made it about himself.

Do you think Samuel the Lamanite was like, "bruh, they cut my mic off, they wouldn't let me speak, etc"

For me is his reaction that exposes him. He's totally butt hurt. It's all me, and mine.

And if you go on RFM then you are walking down the anti-road. Unless it's a debate, you only go on RFM to trash.

[ransomme]

I get what you're saying here and he shouldn't have been surprised. However, I don't think it should be this way. If a teen shares his testimony of the Holy Ghost by telling a story of his friends trying to get him to take drugs but then something marvelous happens to help him make the right decision that would be an approved message. He trusted the Spirit more than men as we are taught in scripture.

If an adult gets up and shares his testimony of how the HG led him stop listening to men who are leading him astray and placing him and his brothers and sisters in physical and spiritual danger that is a testimony that should be welcomed. Obviously, you wouldn't waste peoples time with a political or sales message but relating a story how he didn't feel the confirmation of what the prophet said should be welcome. Dealing with doubts is something many leaders have spoken about. How does one deal with doubts if doubts are unwelcome speech in the chapel? How many people sitting in that audience have the same concerns but say or do nothing (yet)? I think it's very unwise not to let the man talk. I think the damage done by seeing his mic get cut is far worse than any damage his testimony may have caused.

The church should be thinking about the long game here. How many fence sitters aren't fence sitters anymore after watching that go down twice and now we all know about it. The guy in charge of that meetinghouse has the last say in what can be spoken at the mic but if we are a church of that honors common consent and even asks who disagrees with x in some of our meetings it shouldn't just be lip service. An issue like the supposed Godsend impacts everyone in that building. If sacrament meeting is the wrong time then where are the Q&A firesides giving members a chance to participate in open conversation about what happened the last few years and how it relates to listening to men over the Spirit? The church can keep trying to run from this issue or face it openly. Getting the church law firm and local police to threaten members is beyond reasonable. This is just another convincer in a long list that the corporate church is falling away.

You may wish that, but that's not reality.

Even though I largely agree with the dude's view it was tactless. Actually, It was a major a-hole move. It's like he threw a hand grenade into a room of unsuspecting people.

Seriously, thinking about it again he showed no respect for anyone there. It was all about himself, not Jesus.

Maybe, maybe not. Mormons avoid rocking the boat, but that doesn't seem like what we should do.

Jesus didn't throw hand grenades at the Jews, he busted out heavy artillery. Whited sepulchers filled with dead man's bones was an insult so offensive to the priests and Pharisees that we likely have no equivalent epithet in modern language.

What did Abinidi, a man with no clerical authority that we know of, do? He told those sinful Nephites so plainly of their wickedness that they ignited wood and burned him to death.

What did Lehi, also a man with no clerical authority that we know of, do? He told the Jews of their iniquity so plainly that they wanted to kill him and probably would have if he hadn't been warned of God to skip town. How about Joseph Smith? How about Paul? Samuel the Lamanite? Alma the Younger?

This man seems like a cuddly little teddy bear compared to them. Honestly, I'm jealous that I haven't done the same, yet. But, I hope to soon.

I don't have a problem with saying hard things. The difference is I think this dude was butt hurt ego driven, and not sent by the Spirit.

I think he did it that way because he had an audience, and not for the individuals in the audience.

[ransomme]

I get what you're saying here and he shouldn't have been surprised. However, I don't think it should be this way. If a teen shares his testimony of the Holy Ghost by telling a story of his friends trying to get him to take drugs but then something marvelous happens to help him make the right decision that would be an approved message. He trusted the Spirit more than men as we are taught in scripture.

If an adult gets up and shares his testimony of how the HG led him stop listening to men who are leading him astray and placing him and his brothers and sisters in physical and spiritual danger that is a testimony that should be welcomed. Obviously, you wouldn't waste peoples time with a political or sales message but relating a story how he didn't feel the confirmation of what the prophet said should be welcome. Dealing with doubts is something many leaders have spoken about. How does one deal with doubts if doubts are unwelcome speech in the chapel? How many people sitting in that audience have the same concerns but say or do nothing (yet)? I think it's very unwise not to let the man talk. I think the damage done by seeing his mic get cut is far worse than any damage his testimony may have caused.

The church should be thinking about the long game here. How many fence sitters aren't fence sitters anymore after watching that go down twice and now we all know about it. The guy in charge of that meetinghouse has the last say in what can be spoken at the mic but if we are a church of that honors common consent and even asks who disagrees with x in some of our meetings it shouldn't just be lip service. An issue like the supposed Godsend impacts everyone in that building. If sacrament meeting is the wrong time then where are the Q&A firesides giving members a chance to participate in open conversation about what happened the last few years and how it relates to listening to men over the Spirit? The church can keep trying to run from this issue or face it openly. Getting the church law firm and local police to threaten members is beyond reasonable. This is just another convincer in a long list that the corporate church is falling away.

You may wish that, but that's not reality.

Even though I largely agree with the dude's view it was tactless. Actually, It was a major a-hole move. It's like he threw a hand grenade into a room of unsuspecting people.

Seriously, thinking about it again he showed no respect for anyone there. It was all about himself, not Jesus.

I'm 100% clear on the reality. I'm talking about what they should do which isn't always associated with reality. Leaders of the LDS church are guilty of every one of the actions listed below and more:

Making a-hole moves
Being tactless
Throwing hand-grenades around unsuspecting people
Showing no respect
Making it all about himself, not Jesus.

This man made the leaders and probably some members uncomfortable. That is the least of my concerns. If this is too hard for members to hear they're in for a very rough time in the days to come. I'm not saying this man is a prophet but many men of God have been silenced and even killed for speaking truth that is contrary to leadership. This man took action at least. What are we to do, let the church crumble until Christ comes or open up our mouths when the Spirit calls us to even if it pisses people off?

I don't think that he had pure motivations. I don't think he did it out of love for people that he said he called "friend", or for the love of God.

As I said above, IMO he was ego driven and a big tell was that he kept making it about himself.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Seriously, thinking about it again he showed no respect for anyone there. It was all about himself, not Jesus.

Did you read his entire testimony? It was about Christ. And… I would add, testifying against false prophets is what Christ often did… so again, a message very much centered in Christ.

It was mingled in there, but you only approach it the way he did if you want a confrontation.

And then he cried about the reaction. That was so ego driven. He made it about himself.

Do you think Samuel the Lamanite was like, "bruh, they cut my mic off, they wouldn't let me speak, etc"

For me is his reaction that exposes him. He's totally butt hurt. It's all me, and mine.

And if you go on RFM then you are walking down the anti-road. Unless it's a debate, you only go on RFM to trash.

Samuel was like, “bruh, you tried to kill me.”

BTW, I don’t watch RFM. And, you aren’t going to get a debate w/ the church. They are never wrong.

I see no problem in trying to wake up his friends. So he got kicked out. He didn’t “cry” about it. Were they upset? Heck yeah. And why not, the religion they poured their hearts and souls into reared it’s ugly apostate face. In the beginning of my waking up phase I was pretty darn upset as well. The counsel of these men is killing people. I’d say that’s quite serious. Standing at the pulpit and trying to navigate the emotional climate of the day seems quite mild.

[ransomme]

Did you read his entire testimony? It was about Christ. And… I would add, testifying against false prophets is what Christ often did… so again, a message very much centered in Christ.

It was mingled in there, but you only approach it the way he did if you want a confrontation.

And then he cried about the reaction. That was so ego driven. He made it about himself.

Do you think Samuel the Lamanite was like, "bruh, they cut my mic off, they wouldn't let me speak, etc"

For me is his reaction that exposes him. He's totally butt hurt. It's all me, and mine.

And if you go on RFM then you are walking down the anti-road. Unless it's a debate, you only go on RFM to trash.

Samuel was like, “bruh, you tried to kill me.”

BTW, I don’t watch RFM. And, you aren’t going to get a debate w/ the church. They are never wrong.

I see no problem in trying to wake up his friends. So he got kicked out. He didn’t “cry” about it. Were they upset? Heck yeah. And why not, the religion they poured their hearts and souls into reared it’s ugly apostate face. In the beginning of my waking up phase I was pretty darn upset as well. The counsel of these men is killing people. I’d say that’s quite serious. Standing at the pulpit and trying to navigate the emotional climate of the day was quite mild.

No Sam was like, " bruh you can't touch this." Nah, na na na.

I meant debate RFM not the Church.

IMO he did cry about.

My mic...
Answer My questions...
Me, mine, I'm entitled, I'm owed....

Personally, I felt no Spirit of love from him. I think he lashed out because he is grieving. I think he went on RFM because he's looking for acceptance, and it feels good when people agree with you.

As I said, I mostly agree with him, and I Hope the best for him.