New Temple Ceremony Doctrinal Flaws

[Reluctant Watchman]

Let’s test this theory.

Do you agree that when God joins a man and woman together in marriage that they enter a covenant relationship?

I’m sorry, I’m not interested in the philosophies of men.

You consider God joining a man and woman in a covenant relationship when they are married to be philosophy of man?

That doesn’t surprise me.

I don’t care to hear your opinion.

Look, we don’t see eye-to-eye on really anything. And, for the record, when you don’t like talking about things you’ve repeatedly used that “philosophies of men” cop-out. Or you complain about a tangent comment, or something. So yeah, not too interested. I’m sure you’re a nice person, but we can just go our separate ways on the forum. I’ve learned to cut my losses with a handful of other people on the forum.

[Bjǫrnúlfr]

I’m sorry, I’m not interested in the philosophies of men.

You consider God joining a man and woman in a covenant relationship when they are married to be philosophy of man?

That doesn’t surprise me.

I don’t care to hear your opinion.

Look, we don’t see eye-to-eye on really anything. And, for the record, when you don’t like talking about things you’ve repeatedly used that “philosophies of men” cop-out. Or you complain about a tangent comment, or something. So yeah, not too interested. I’m sure you’re a nice person, but we can just go our separate ways on the forum. I’ve learned to cut my losses with a handful of other people on the forum.

I’ve noticed that you like to make jabs at people as soon as the conversation starts to go south for you. Which makes trying to discuss anything with you pretty unproductive.

[Reluctant Watchman]

You consider God joining a man and woman in a covenant relationship when they are married to be philosophy of man?

That doesn’t surprise me.

I don’t care to hear your opinion.

Look, we don’t see eye-to-eye on really anything. And, for the record, when you don’t like talking about things you’ve repeatedly used that “philosophies of men” cop-out. Or you complain about a tangent comment, or something. So yeah, not too interested. I’m sure you’re a nice person, but we can just go our separate ways on the forum. I’ve learned to cut my losses with a handful of other people on the forum.

I’ve noticed that you like to make a jabs at people as soon as the conversation starts to go south for you. Which makes trying to discuss anything with you pretty unproductive.

Jabs? I’ve made it a point not to jab at people, but I will address doctrines, policy, and practices.

BTW, I have no idea how this was going South. You asked a question, I don’t care to respond… now, or in the future. I figured it was a nice way to let you know I won’t be responding much. Take care.

[Bjǫrnúlfr]

I don’t care to hear your opinion.

Look, we don’t see eye-to-eye on really anything. And, for the record, when you don’t like talking about things you’ve repeatedly used that “philosophies of men” cop-out. Or you complain about a tangent comment, or something. So yeah, not too interested. I’m sure you’re a nice person, but we can just go our separate ways on the forum. I’ve learned to cut my losses with a handful of other people on the forum.

I’ve noticed that you like to make a jabs at people as soon as the conversation starts to go south for you. Which makes trying to discuss anything with you pretty unproductive.

Jabs? I’ve made it a point not to jab at people, but I will address doctrines, policy, and practices.

BTW, I have no idea how this was going South. You asked a question, I don’t care to respond… now, or in the future. I figured it was a nice way to let you know I won’t be responding much. Take care.

When you say things like, “ You believe your interpretation of a book,” that’s a jab. Unless of course you actually believe this, in which case you should be willing to test your theory. Which is why I asked you a follow up question, but then you replied with a snarky comment.

And I don’t label things as philosophies of men as a cop-out. When people make doctrinal claims without supporting them from the scriptures, or worse attempt to downplay or ignore scriptures in order to keep pushing their own philosophies, I have to call it like I see it. I simply have no interest in having back and forth discussions when people do this. I consider it to be a waste of time.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

And yet, the LDS endowment has FAR more in common with the older Egyptian endowment than masonic rituals.


The argument can be made and the evidence suggests that both Judaism and Masonry derived from ancient Egypt.

Transferring its origins from one form of apostacy to another still has the same end result of apostate origins.


Trust the BoM. There is no endowment of power.

I do trust and believe in the BOM Shawn, thank you. I also believe, unlike you, in much of what Joseph brought forth along with the BOM. I hope I am wrong but my guess is you will lose all confidence in the BOM in the coming years.

Maybe you can find a way to give that memo to John the Revelator considering his entire book is choked full of many different ancient cultural myths and traditions, all of which you have deemed apostate origins. Go figure. This goes for all the prophets of old and if you did a little research it would be as clear as day to you. Daniel, Ezekiel, Joel, etc., visions are again choked full of the very history you deem apostate origins. And if the origins are apostate what does that say for practically of all the prophets from the old world?

You are gravely misinformed as to what constitutes apostate origins as well as the language of the prophets. Especially considering the Hebrews and Jews and their most sacred myths, rituals, and symbols do in fact have a common [SAME] origin as the entire ancient world. It's an indisputable fact and can easily be proven with the embarrassment of riches and HUGE amounts of ancient records that have come forth in the last 100-plus years that you continue to ignore and label apostate. And because of all your false misconception of ancient world history (which God has “commanded” us to study mind you), it has provided you with all the reason in the world to dismiss practically everything from the ancient world which results in you being left in an invisible theoretical black hole in regard to the knowledge of the past starting with the creation. No work is necessary on your part while being completely dismissive of all the evidence and human recollections. A path that leads to nowhere.

And yes, there is so much truth to be discovered in the world and history than just the BOM. As recorded in the BOM,

"Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth? Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word?"(2 Nephi 29:7,8)

One of the main reasons why God commanded Joseph to translate His scriptures was for him to obtain a knowledge of history, the most important one being The Book of Moses.

D&C 93:53 ... "And, verily I say unto you, that it is my will that you should hasten to translate my scriptures, and to obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion. Amen."

"And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom. Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand; Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms—" -D&C 88:76–80

Joseph knew the importance of seeking out ancient history and this is shown throughout his life. He had much experience with Egyptians (As did many of the prophets of old) starting with the BOM, and the Egyptian writings of Joseph and Abraham. There is a good reason why Lehi taught his sons the ways and language of the “apostate” Egyptians. Though the reasoning eludes you. But here is a key.

D&C 93:24,25: And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come; And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.

3 Nephi 23 1-3 And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah. For surely he spake as touching all things concerning my people which are of the house of Israel; therefore it must needs be that he must speak also to the Gentiles. And all things that he spake have been and shall be, even according to the words which he spake.

"The Prophecy of Isaiah, encoded by literary devices, reveals a vision of the end of the world and brings to light parts of Hebrew religion that were lost. The Book of Isaiah shows that the end is foretold by events that occurred in the beginning, the future mirroring the past." -

"As Isaiah informs us, God, "foretells the end from the beginning, from ancient times things yet not done." (Isa. 46:10) That may seem an obvious statement, coming from a prophet. But we already know it doesn't just mean that God predicts the future in plain terms. God's revelation is multi-dimensional. He also foretells the end by orchestrating history itself, so that what happened in the beginning will happen again at the end. The "end" - that is, the end of the world-is thus foretold "from the beginning" in Israel's own history." -Avraham Gileadi

Ether 4: 13-17 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief. Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief. Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel. And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed.

Why is this knowledge hidden from us? Unbelief and false traditions!

[SempiternalHarbinger]

I will also say one more thing Shawn Henry, One of the most incredible confirmations of the validity of the Book of Mormon once again comes through what you deem apostate. What it does is help separate the sacred from the profane. I speak of the patterns and the points of agreement with all ancient cultures.

The problem is that you just don't know where to look in the BOM because of your unfamiliarity with ancient history. Once again, it's an indisputable fact that is built on the bedrock of truth that the patterns, parallels, and imagery/archetypes are everywhere! Just read the dozen or so discourses on the Atonement in the BOM which are replete with ancient temple imagery and old Hebrew and other cultural rites and festivals. Mosiah's King's coronation is one of the best examples. Hugh Nibley has pointed out over 35 points of agreement between King Benjamin's coronation of King Mosiah and the ancient King Coronation ritual/ceremony which can be found throughout the entire ancient world. The points of agreement are crystal clear to see and are undeniable. Stephen Ricks, Matthew B. Brown, and Hugh Nibley have all covered this topic masterfully. But if you are going to label one apostate (profane) you have to label them all.

And speaking of the atonement, do you know how many times the word is mentioned in the New Testament? One single time. Whereas it is mentioned 127 times in the Old Testament. The reason for this is apparent when we note that of the 127x, all but 5 occur in the books of Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where they explicitly describe the original rites of the Tabernacle or temple on the Day of the Atonement. Moreover, the sole appearance of the word Atonement in the New Testament is in the epistle to the Hebrews explaining how those very ancient rites are to be interpreted since the coming of Christ.

The Atonement is mentioned 3 times in D&C, 2 times in the POGP, and 40 times in the BOM. This puts the BOM in the milieu of the old Hebrew and other cultural rites before the destruction of Solomon's Temple, for after that the Ark and the coverings (kapporeth) no longer existed, but the Holy of Holies was still called the bait ha-kapporeth. The loss of the old ceremonies occurred shortly after Lehi fled Jerusalem. We read in the Talmud, "As long as the temple stood, the altar atoned for Israel, but now a man's table atones for him." Thus, the ordinances of atonement were, after Lehi's day, supplanted by allegory.

-The atonement... was an integral part of all ancient festivals. Atonement = re-conciliation, re-demption, re-surection, re-store, re-lease, salvation, and so on, all refer to a return to [God] a former state.

"I refer to that handbook of the archaic world called the book of Moses, and call attention to the great assembly at Adam-ondi-Ahman for the presentation of the original model (D&C 107:53-57). "Adam [Man] in the presence of God is the quintessential atonement."

The essential feature of this great world festival everywhere is that it aims, if but for a few short days, to recapture the freedom, love, equality, abundance, joy, and light of a Golden Age, a dimly remembered but blessed time in the beginning when all creatures lived together in innocence without fear or enmity, when the heavens poured forth ceaseless bounty, and all men were brothers under the loving rule of the King and Creator of all. ( -The Christmas Quest: Hugh Nibley)

"The aim of archaic cultic activities not only in Egypt but also everywhere else was, according to Karl Albert,, the goal [of the ancient civilizations was always] to restore the primal community of Gods and men, or as we would say, to achieve atonement; and the ordinances were inseparable from the doctrines that went with them, Everywhere, we find myth and legends about how the prima bond that existed between heaven and earth in the Golden Age was broken by the wickedness of men" (Temple and Cosmos; pg.399-401)

“Almost always when the plan is mentioned something is said about its glad reception, 'when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy' (Job 38:7). The great year-rites, common to all ancient societies, are a rehearsal of the Creation, usually presented in dramatic form; invariably the rites end with a great and joyful acclamation: so all the gods and all the spirits came together to hail God upon his throne.and they rejoiced before him in his temple, the source of all good things. The word poema, meaning literally creation, owes its prominence, as Walter Otto has shown, to the circumstance that the first poets were all inspired people who sang one and the same song, namely the Song of Creation.

The whole purpose of the book of Jubilees is to show that the great rites of Israel, centering about the temple and the throne, are a celebration 'which had been observed in heaven since the creation'.The thing to notice here is that man shares fully in these heavenly jubilations; the poet is simply intoxicated with the assurance that man, a mere speck of 'wet dust,' is allowed not only to know about the secret councils of the beginning, but actually to share in them, not only as a participant but as one of the directors!” -(Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyptian Endowment; pg. 287)

“Every celebration of a New Year starts the world out on a new dispensation, the “unimaginably mighty works” of the creator Goethe reminds us, with everything, “herrlich wie am ersten Tag” (as glorious as on the day of creation), so the angel chorus sang a New Hymn of the creation. This calls for a “new” garden of Eden. To launch the new age of the world.”-Hugh Niblley

Primitive Atonement: our theme the last time was atonement, a bringing together of God and man. Those humans, spirits, or angels who are “at one” with God are naturally at one with each other and with all his creatures. We are speaking of a real event, past and future. This great bringing together or gathering in of all things was rehearsed in the grand manner by the earliest people who have left a record, a subject I have been writing on for fifty years. It begins with a survey of those prehistoric ceremonial centers, found throughout the world. The consistency of the pattern by which they are laid out suggests their use as ceremonial centers, and through the years accumulating data has sharpened the picture. Folklore, myth, legend, and custom, along with the geometrical sophistication of the centers and their astronomical correspondences, confirm the impression of something great going on long before anyone had hitherto suspected it.

… Lord Raglan expressed: “There is nothing natural in the performance of rites”, “all extant rituals are derived from a single ritual system.” Moreover, “in all religions the myths, the doctrines, and the rites form a connected whole,” including the death and resurrection of the god, a myth of creation, combat with an adversary, a sacred marriage, a triumphant procession.... I summed up the ritual situation thus in an article thirty-eight years ago:

“At hundreds of holy shrines, each believed to mark the exact center of the universe and represented as the point at which the four quarters of the earth converged—”the navel of the earth”—one might have seen assembled at the New Year—the moment of creation, the beginning and ending of time (that’s the eternal round)—vast concourses of people, each thought to represent the entire human race in the presence of all its ancestors and gods.”

The picture was confirmed some years later by Mircea Eliade, the foremost student of comparative religion of our time: “By virtue of these paradigmatic models revealed to men.” …

The elaborate appointments of the sacred places and the activities they indicate require a rationale, a doctrine. “The temple in particular—preeminently the sacred place—had a celestial prototype.” On this I have written a good deal; Eliade goes on to explain that the purpose of the rites, in particular the sacrifice, is “to restore the primordial unity, that which existed before the Creation, . . . to restore the whole that preceded the Creation.” That primal unity is the one-ness between heaven and earth which we have called atonement. In a recent study Karl Albert views the great feast or common meal as an example of how “cult grows out of a longing for Daseinsgemeinschaft, a one-ness with the divine existence.” He cites Albrecht Dieterich: “These prehistoric ‘mysteries’ are to achieve a Liebesvereinigung, a return to the primal Father and Mother as a child, a rebirth, a return to celestial company, . . . a yearning for the restoration of a firmly held common existence of man and of the Godhead—Verlangen nach Wiederherstellung der geglaubten Daseinsgemeinschaft zwischen den Menschen und der Gottheit“—a perfect definition of atonement. The doctrine is inseparable from the rites; wherever we go, Eliade reminds us, “there is always a central myth which describes the beginnings of the world.” The various versions of the story “taken all together . . . constitute a fairly coherent history” everywhere the same. in mythical [i.e., prehistoric] times, the Cosmos and society are periodically regenerated.

[Thinker]

It’s interesting to see various perspectives and conclusion from research. Just FYI, I’m working on responses…

And another FYI, this is kinda my calling:

[Shawn Henry]

"As Isaiah informs us, God, "foretells the end from the beginning, from ancient times things yet not done." (Isa. 46:10) That may seem an obvious statement, coming from a prophet. But we already know it doesn't just mean that God predicts the future in plain terms. God's revelation is multi-dimensional. He also foretells the end by orchestrating history itself, so that what happened in the beginning will happen again at the end. The "end" - that is, the end of the world-is thus foretold "from the beginning" in Israel's own history." -Avraham Gileadi

I believe this also appplies to this dispensation. God did declare what would happen and he did so right at the beginning. This is the very first revelation JS received.

2 Remember, remember, that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men: for although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet he boasts in his own strength, and sets at nought the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will, and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengence of a just God upon him.

3 Behold, you have been instructed with these things, but how strict were your commandments; and remember, also, the promises which were made to you, if you did not transgress them; and behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men: for behold, you should not have feared man more than God, although men set at nought the counsels of God, and despise his words, yet you should have been faithful and he would have extended his arm, and supported you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of trouble.


4 Behold thou art Joseph, and thou was chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall, but remember God is merciful: Therefore, repent of that which thou hast done, and he will only cause thee to be afflicted for a season, and thou art still chosen, and wilt again be called to the work: and except thou do this, thou shalt be delivered up and become as other men, and have no more gift.

I believe this is the Lord declaring from the beginning that Joseph would fall, but I also believe the Joseph the Seer prophecy that he will again be made strong.

Thank you for your comments on learning about history. I'm of the opinion that our entire history, save the Nephites at the time of Christ, is a history of apostacy. The Nephites are the only ones I would trust and they do not validate Joseph's Nauvoo teachings.

[Thinker]

The person on the altar in the image is clearly alive an is being executed by a priest.
It agrees completely with the Joseph Smith translation…

Cognitive bias is common. We want our little Mormon world to be true, so we engage in mental gymnastics to make it so, even when evidence mounts against it. Some truth is hard for everyone to take.

Multiple Ancient Egyptian scholars agree that the papyrus is of a funeral (with bottles under the table for various body organs). The arm & legs lifted stiffly may be rigor mortis (muscular stiffening following death).

But I’d guess it was more symbolic not a literal drawing as the head of the priest was originally a head of an animal on a human body…


^ https://external-content.duckduckgo.com ... ipo=images


^https://mit.irr.org/files/files/Images/ ... -smith.jpg

The right hand Joseph Smith filled in was in the original the wing of Isis as she hovers over her husband Osiris. Remember this is a drawing that doesn’t reflect things literally but based on Egyptian mythology so the body was thought to be prepared for resurrection after other processes, especially believed in relation to Osiris.

“…the priest performed the Opening of the mouth ceremony on the deceased. The deceased's head was turned toward the south, and the body was imagined to be a statue replica of the deceased. Opening the mouth of the deceased symbolized allowing the person to speak and defend themselves during the judgment process. Goods were then offered to the deceased to conclude the ceremony.”https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient ... _practices

Egyptiologists disagree w JS’s translation
2:48: “The papyrus roll is not a record but an invocation to the deity Osiris, in which covers the name of the person, & a picture of the attendant spirits, introducing the dead to the judge, Osiris.” - Robert K. Ritner
https://youtu.be/aMIsN5BDBSA?feature=shared

[Thinker]

Whoever put out the evidence about Albert Pike clearly did not do the research as to when he was born- 1809!! Not in the 1700s!!

So when the church was organized he was only 21. In Nauvoo period he would have been in early 30s. He didn't take over the Freemasonry until the mid 1840s after Joseph passed. Also, the charters where much more separated than they are now. For obvious reasons.

Was it a corrupted ceremony, yes, but did it teach some truths that helped people understand natural law and some eternal (albeit incomplete and some corrupted) truths. Yes.

You will see the same ceremony repeated in Egyptian, Hopi ceremonies, and many others. Read Hugh Nibleys, Temple and the Cosmos for comprehensive research. Not lazy research like people tend to do now.

He got a number off - true Pike was around in the 1800’s not 1700’s. But there is still truth of the enormous influence FREEMASONRY had in the 1700’s, especially in the establishment of the US capital, since founding fathers were (had to be?) Masons.

Freemason Connections to our Founding Fathers

There is such a desire to fit a square peg into a round hole that many draw comparisons between ancient rituals when they don’t exist. As I pointed out in my previous post, the Egyptian papyrus is known to be a funeral rite, and counter to Joseph Smith’s claim, has nothing to do with Abraham.

Speaking of “lazy research,” have you bothered to study the origins of the religion you subscribe to, not just Mormon origins but Christian origins?

viewtopic.php?t=52528

[jack]

The person on the altar in the image is clearly alive an is being executed by a priest.
It agrees completely with the Joseph Smith translation…

Cognitive bias is common. We want our little Mormon world to be true, so we engage in mental gymnastics to make it so, even when evidence mounts against it. Some truth is hard for everyone to take.

Multiple Ancient Egyptian scholars agree that the papyrus is of a funeral (with bottles under the table for various body organs). The arm & legs lifted stiffly may be rigor mortis (muscular stiffening following death).

But I’d guess it was more symbolic not a literal drawing as the head of the priest was originally a head of an animal on a human body…





The right hand Joseph Smith filled in was in the original the wing of Isis as she hovers over her husband Osiris. Remember this is a drawing that doesn’t reflect things literally but based on Egyptian mythology so the body was thought to be prepared for resurrection after other processes, especially believed in relation to Osiris.

“…the priest performed the Opening of the mouth ceremony on the deceased. The deceased's head was turned toward the south, and the body was imagined to be a statue replica of the deceased. Opening the mouth of the deceased symbolized allowing the person to speak and defend themselves during the judgment process. Goods were then offered to the deceased to conclude the ceremony.”https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient ... _practices

Egyptiologists disagree w JS’s translation
2:48: “The papyrus roll is not a record but an invocation to the deity Osiris, in which covers the name of the person, & a picture of the attendant spirits, introducing the dead to the judge, Osiris.” - Robert K. Ritner
https://youtu.be/aMIsN5BDBSA?feature=shared

I found this post interesting. I'll copy the image into this thread as well. Was it the actual facsimile hanging over Lucy's head? A reproduction?
viewtopic.php?p=1229956#p1229956



I don't know how anyone can sort it all out though.

[Thinker]

Cognitive bias is common. We want our little Mormon world to be true, so we engage in mental gymnastics to make it so, even when evidence mounts against it. Some truth is hard for everyone to take.

Multiple Ancient Egyptian scholars agree that the papyrus is of a funeral (with bottles under the table for various body organs). The arm & legs lifted stiffly may be rigor mortis (muscular stiffening following death).

But I’d guess it was more symbolic not a literal drawing as the head of the priest was originally a head of an animal on a human body…





The right hand Joseph Smith filled in was in the original the wing of Isis as she hovers over her husband Osiris. Remember this is a drawing that doesn’t reflect things literally but based on Egyptian mythology so the body was thought to be prepared for resurrection after other processes, especially believed in relation to Osiris.

“…the priest performed the Opening of the mouth ceremony on the deceased. The deceased's head was turned toward the south, and the body was imagined to be a statue replica of the deceased. Opening the mouth of the deceased symbolized allowing the person to speak and defend themselves during the judgment process. Goods were then offered to the deceased to conclude the ceremony.”https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient ... _practices

Egyptiologists disagree w JS’s translation
2:48: “The papyrus roll is not a record but an invocation to the deity Osiris, in which covers the name of the person, & a picture of the attendant spirits, introducing the dead to the judge, Osiris.” - Robert K. Ritner
https://youtu.be/aMIsN5BDBSA?feature=shared

I found this post interesting. I'll copy the image into this thread as well. Was it the actual facsimile hanging over Lucy's head? A reproduction?
viewtopic.php?p=1229956#p1229956



I don't know how anyone can sort it all out though.

A painting of a painting… hm.

Thanks for the link for the other thread - forgot about it!

As far as sorting things out - this, among countless other things, are divine reminders that we shouldn’t trust in the flesh. Only trust in God - & profits are NOT God.

[Atrasado]

^^^ somebody is worshipping a false god. I won’t name names. I’m often surprised how often people claim that something is from the Lord, when I doubt the Lord gave his stamp of approval.

This is why I believe the commandment to trust God alone is found in almost all canon of scripture.

The temple, in many regards, has become an idol. From the literal structure and foundation, to the elevating of men and their supposed priesthoods and authority.

Hosea wrote,

10 Yea, though they have hired among the nations, now will I gather them (the gathering of Ephraim didn't start until this Church started so Hosea's talking about us.), and they shall sorrow a little for the burden of the king of princes. (This is, perhaps the saddest phrase in all of scripture as our gratitude for Christ's suffering is paltry and fleeting) 11 Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin. (How would we sin by going to the temple? Idolatry towards the temple is one way, I would think. Another way might be making covenants and not keeping them and then returning often to remind ourselves of the covenants we don't keep.) 12 I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing. (We were given the higher law and a gospel dispensation and we treated it like garbage).13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings (We prepare bread for the sacrament in remembrance of the Lord's sacrifice), and eat it (We partake of the sacrament); but the Lord accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins(We blew it badly): they shall return to Egypt (We are no different than any person that hasn't made covenants, and probably worse because we've made covenants and don't keep them). 14 For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples (Why is President Nelson so determined to see so many go to the temple? Perhaps to make covenants he knows most of us won't keep); and Judah hath multiplied fenced cities: but I will send a fire upon his cities, and it shall devour the palaces thereof.

[Mindfields]

Cognitive bias is common. We want our little Mormon world to be true, so we engage in mental gymnastics to make it so, even when evidence mounts against it. Some truth is hard for everyone to take.

Multiple Ancient Egyptian scholars agree that the papyrus is of a funeral (with bottles under the table for various body organs). The arm & legs lifted stiffly may be rigor mortis (muscular stiffening following death).

But I’d guess it was more symbolic not a literal drawing as the head of the priest was originally a head of an animal on a human body…

This is so true. There is no temple ceremony in the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith made up the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. The D&C is so full of crap it just as well be jettisoned as well. I know those are hard truths to swallow but better than wasting your time trying to invent some explanation to support the unsupportable.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Cognitive bias is common. We want our little Mormon world to be true, so we engage in mental gymnastics to make it so, even when evidence mounts against it. Some truth is hard for everyone to take.

Multiple Ancient Egyptian scholars agree that the papyrus is of a funeral (with bottles under the table for various body organs). The arm & legs lifted stiffly may be rigor mortis (muscular stiffening following death).

But I’d guess it was more symbolic not a literal drawing as the head of the priest was originally a head of an animal on a human body…

This is so true. There is no temple ceremony in the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith made up the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. The D&C is so full of crap it just as well be jettisoned as well. I know those are hard truths to swallow but better than wasting your time trying to invent some explanation to support the unsupportable.

Just because a temple ceremony isn’t documented in the BoM, doesn’t mean there wasn’t one. The Nephites built temples. And there is no mention of what occurred there. To say that there wasn’t, simply means that Mormon chose not to include it in his writings. There may have been, there may not have been. Based on my other readings, yes, they did have their own types of worship in the temples.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Cognitive bias is common. We want our little Mormon world to be true, so we engage in mental gymnastics to make it so, even when evidence mounts against it. Some truth is hard for everyone to take.

Multiple Ancient Egyptian scholars agree that the papyrus is of a funeral (with bottles under the table for various body organs). The arm & legs lifted stiffly may be rigor mortis (muscular stiffening following death).

But I’d guess it was more symbolic not a literal drawing as the head of the priest was originally a head of an animal on a human body…

This is so true. There is no temple ceremony in the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith made up the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. The D&C is so full of crap it just as well be jettisoned as well. I know those are hard truths to swallow but better than wasting your time trying to invent some explanation to support the unsupportable.

Joseph smith likely didn’t make up the book of Abraham and the book of Moses. He drew from the ideas in his theological circle. His great uncle, John Smith, created the 35 lectures in theology at Dartmouth that became the basis for the theology degree. Hyrum graduated from dartmouth before the family moved to palmyra and would have taken all 35 lectures. The lectures include the idea of a pre mortal world, agency, the choice between Satan and Christ, a new perspective on garden of Eden theology etc. many of the ideas in the Dartmouth college theology course may have served as a basis for the book of Abraham
And book of Moses.

[Thinker]

Cognitive bias is common. We want our little Mormon world to be true, so we engage in mental gymnastics to make it so, even when evidence mounts against it. Some truth is hard for everyone to take.

Multiple Ancient Egyptian scholars agree that the papyrus is of a funeral (with bottles under the table for various body organs). The arm & legs lifted stiffly may be rigor mortis (muscular stiffening following death).

But I’d guess it was more symbolic not a literal drawing as the head of the priest was originally a head of an animal on a human body…

This is so true. There is no temple ceremony in the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith made up the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. The D&C is so full of crap it just as well be jettisoned as well. I know those are hard truths to swallow but better than wasting your time trying to invent some explanation to support the unsupportable.

It reminds me of the basic, “Thou shalt have no other gods before” God. Though few would acknowledge it, often members indeed prioritize other things like writings of men, before the God of truth.

But again, take the best, leave the rest. Some truth but some lies. If people stopped treating writings of fallible people as if they were their “PRECIOUS,” then they wouldn’t cling so tightly & freak out when the illusion is busted. It’s like learning about Santa - time to grow up people. What matters more than religious rituals is how well we maintain integrity.

[Thinker]

Joseph smith likely didn’t make up the book of Abraham and the book of Moses. He drew from the ideas in his theological circle. His great uncle, John Smith, created the 35 lectures in theology at Dartmouth that became the basis for the theology degree. Hyrum graduated from dartmouth before the family moved to palmyra and would have taken all 35 lectures. The lectures include the idea of a pre mortal world, agency, the choice between Satan and Christ, a new perspective on garden of Eden theology etc. many of the ideas in the Dartmouth college theology course may have served as a basis for the book of Abraham
And book of Moses.

Interesting. I’m making a note to look that up.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Joseph smith likely didn’t make up the book of Abraham and the book of Moses. He drew from the ideas in his theological circle. His great uncle, John Smith, created the 35 lectures in theology at Dartmouth that became the basis for the theology degree. Hyrum graduated from dartmouth before the family moved to palmyra and would have taken all 35 lectures. The lectures include the idea of a pre mortal world, agency, the choice between Satan and Christ, a new perspective on garden of Eden theology etc. many of the ideas in the Dartmouth college theology course may have served as a basis for the book of Abraham
And book of Moses.

Interesting. I’m making a note to look that up.

I’ll save you the time:
https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/f ... x5mNSuAy7x

[Mindfields]

Cognitive bias is common. We want our little Mormon world to be true, so we engage in mental gymnastics to make it so, even when evidence mounts against it. Some truth is hard for everyone to take.

Multiple Ancient Egyptian scholars agree that the papyrus is of a funeral (with bottles under the table for various body organs). The arm & legs lifted stiffly may be rigor mortis (muscular stiffening following death).

But I’d guess it was more symbolic not a literal drawing as the head of the priest was originally a head of an animal on a human body…

This is so true. There is no temple ceremony in the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith made up the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. The D&C is so full of crap it just as well be jettisoned as well. I know those are hard truths to swallow but better than wasting your time trying to invent some explanation to support the unsupportable.

Joseph smith likely didn’t make up the book of Abraham and the book of Moses. He drew from the ideas in his theological circle. His great uncle, John Smith, created the 35 lectures in theology at Dartmouth that became the basis for the theology degree. Hyrum graduated from dartmouth before the family moved to palmyra and would have taken all 35 lectures. The lectures include the idea of a pre mortal world, agency, the choice between Satan and Christ, a new perspective on garden of Eden theology etc. many of the ideas in the Dartmouth college theology course may have served as a basis for the book of Abraham
And book of Moses.

Well at best it's pseudepigrapha.

[Obeone]

Cognitive bias is common. We want our little Mormon world to be true, so we engage in mental gymnastics to make it so, even when evidence mounts against it. Some truth is hard for everyone to take.

Multiple Ancient Egyptian scholars agree that the papyrus is of a funeral (with bottles under the table for various body organs). The arm & legs lifted stiffly may be rigor mortis (muscular stiffening following death).

But I’d guess it was more symbolic not a literal drawing as the head of the priest was originally a head of an animal on a human body…

This is so true. There is no temple ceremony in the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith made up the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. The D&C is so full of crap it just as well be jettisoned as well. I know those are hard truths to swallow but better than wasting your time trying to invent some explanation to support the unsupportable.

Book of Abraham, Book of Moses, and D&C are divine scripture. I know because the Spirit of God made it known to me.

Eternal fire is a convincing teacher. Before long, all will know it.

You will eat your words by and by.

Mark my word.

Cheers.

[Obeone]

The person on the altar in the image is clearly alive an is being executed by a priest.
It agrees completely with the Joseph Smith translation…

Cognitive bias is common. We want our little Mormon world to be true, so we engage in mental gymnastics to make it so, even when evidence mounts against it. Some truth is hard for everyone to take.

Multiple Ancient Egyptian scholars agree that the papyrus is of a funeral (with bottles under the table for various body organs). The arm & legs lifted stiffly may be rigor mortis (muscular stiffening following death).

But I’d guess it was more symbolic not a literal drawing as the head of the priest was originally a head of an animal on a human body…


^ https://external-content.duckduckgo.com ... ipo=images


^https://mit.irr.org/files/files/Images/ ... -smith.jpg

The right hand Joseph Smith filled in was in the original the wing of Isis as she hovers over her husband Osiris. Remember this is a drawing that doesn’t reflect things literally but based on Egyptian mythology so the body was thought to be prepared for resurrection after other processes, especially believed in relation to Osiris.

“…the priest performed the Opening of the mouth ceremony on the deceased. The deceased's head was turned toward the south, and the body was imagined to be a statue replica of the deceased. Opening the mouth of the deceased symbolized allowing the person to speak and defend themselves during the judgment process. Goods were then offered to the deceased to conclude the ceremony.”https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient ... _practices

Egyptiologists disagree w JS’s translation
2:48: “The papyrus roll is not a record but an invocation to the deity Osiris, in which covers the name of the person, & a picture of the attendant spirits, introducing the dead to the judge, Osiris.” - Robert K. Ritner
https://youtu.be/aMIsN5BDBSA?feature=shared

The incident with Abraham on the altar was a momentous and dramatic occasion in Egypt.

No wonder it would be remembered and commemorated in some form through the centuries.

 Abraham 1:20 
20 Behold, Potiphar's Hill was in the land of Ur, of Chaldea. And the Lord broke down the altar of Elkenah, and of the gods of the land, and utterly destroyed them, and smote the priest that he died; and there was great mourning in Chaldea, and also in the court of Pharaoh; which Pharaoh signifies king by royal blood.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Cognitive bias is common. We want our little Mormon world to be true, so we engage in mental gymnastics to make it so, even when evidence mounts against it. Some truth is hard for everyone to take.

Multiple Ancient Egyptian scholars agree that the papyrus is of a funeral (with bottles under the table for various body organs). The arm & legs lifted stiffly may be rigor mortis (muscular stiffening following death).

But I’d guess it was more symbolic not a literal drawing as the head of the priest was originally a head of an animal on a human body…

This is so true. There is no temple ceremony in the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith made up the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. The D&C is so full of crap it just as well be jettisoned as well. I know those are hard truths to swallow but better than wasting your time trying to invent some explanation to support the unsupportable.

Book of Abraham, Book of Moses, and D&C are divine scripture. I know because the Spirit of God made it known to me.

Eternal fire is a convincing teacher. Before long, all will know it.

You will eat your words by and by.

Mark my word.

Cheers.

You can’t lump all of that together and say it is all “divine.” God expects us to use our brains, our agency, and our gift of discernment. As I noted in my other thread, scriptures are intended as a springboard to help us come to know God for ourselves, but there is no perfect book. All scripture has imperfections or the intentions of the writer.

[Mindfields]

Cognitive bias is common. We want our little Mormon world to be true, so we engage in mental gymnastics to make it so, even when evidence mounts against it. Some truth is hard for everyone to take.

Multiple Ancient Egyptian scholars agree that the papyrus is of a funeral (with bottles under the table for various body organs). The arm & legs lifted stiffly may be rigor mortis (muscular stiffening following death).

But I’d guess it was more symbolic not a literal drawing as the head of the priest was originally a head of an animal on a human body…

This is so true. There is no temple ceremony in the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith made up the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. The D&C is so full of crap it just as well be jettisoned as well. I know those are hard truths to swallow but better than wasting your time trying to invent some explanation to support the unsupportable.

Book of Abraham, Book of Moses, and D&C are divine scripture. I know because the Spirit of God made it known to me.

Eternal fire is a convincing teacher. Before long, all will know it.

You will eat your words by and by.

Mark my word.

Cheers.

Not concerned. I'm happy for you.

[Thinker]

... Before long, all will know it.

You will eat your words by and by.

Mark my word...

Not concerned. I'm happy for you.

I felt the spirit and inspired as I read your reply, Mindfields. To me how we react and treat each other is 1,000 x more important than trivial differences in dogmatic beliefs.