The Lord declares at the beginning

[Shawn Henry]

We all know God knows from the end from the beginning, but what is it in the beginning that he declares and to whom does he declare it?

Isaiah 48:5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee;
Isaiah 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know?

Has any of us ever looked at the beginning to see what was being declared? Where was the beginning of God speaking to us in our time?

The very first revelation we have received was given in 1828. From what I can tell, it is the only 1828 revelation. Here is a post I quoted from Teancum1.

It seems to me that the apostasy took place before 1832 when D&C 84:54-58 was received. Actually it seems to have been anticipated by the Lord in section 3 from 1828 in these words:

4 For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.
5 Behold, you have been entrusted with these things, but how strict were your commandments; and remember also the promises which were made to you, if you did not transgress them.
6 And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men.

What does the Lord seem to be declaring here in the beginning?

Why is it that the subsequent history seems to match the hypothetical that the Lord is here declaring? (Joseph boasting he has done more than Jesus and we all know what following his carnal desires refers to)

Does the Lord have a pattern of declaring hypotheticals that might come to pass or does he declare at the beginning what will come to pass?

[BigT]

Here is the whole quote from Joseph:

Joseph Smith 1844 DHC
“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”

If one can’t tell his eyes had been close by then, one needs to think it through some more.

In my opinion, Section 3 was a warning to Joseph. Typically when the Lord warns someone about something it means he knows that someone is going to do it. With the Lord, usually “if” means “when”.

But, let’s not make the mistake of thinking that when one is warned about something, it’s going to happen next week. The Lord doesn’t think about time like we humans do.

[marc]

It always depends on the context. But consider the following two concepts in relation to each other:

The course of the Lord is one eternal round. (D&C 3:2)
From eternity to eternity he is the same, and his years never fail. (D&C 76:4)

Where would a beginning point exist in one eternal round? And where one eternal round concludes, does another begin?

[simpleton]

All you people obsessed with apostasy and "going", or, "went off the rails" back in the 1800's.
We are all "off the rails" and have been for a century or more, so, what makes you think you can discern the times of Joseph and Brigham when your all blind as a bat.

[BigT]

All you people obsessed with apostasy and "going", or, "went off the rails" back in the 1800's.
We are all "off the rails" and have been for a century or more, so, what makes you think you can discern the times of Joseph and Brigham when your all blind as a bat.

Fair point.

[Telavian]

All you people obsessed with apostasy and "going", or, "went off the rails" back in the 1800's.
We are all "off the rails" and have been for a century or more, so, what makes you think you can discern the times of Joseph and Brigham when your all blind as a bat.

I think the main point is if the church "went off the rails" at a certain point then we have a strong indicator that everything after that point is likely not fully of God.

[Telavian]

What does the Lord seem to be declaring here in the beginning?

Why is it that the subsequent history seems to match the hypothetical that the Lord is here declaring? (Joseph boasting he has done more than Jesus and we all know what following his carnal desires refers to)

Does the Lord have a pattern of declaring hypotheticals that might come to pass or does he declare at the beginning what will come to pass?

This revelation is specifically to Joseph. God is upset that Joeph lost the 116 pages because he had "gone on in the persuasions of men". If God gave us individually a revelation then I would imagine he could say an identical thing to almost everyone.

Are you though implying that this pertains to the entire church somehow?

[Telavian]

It seems to me that the apostasy took place before 1832 when D&C 84:54-58 was received. Actually it seems to have been anticipated by the Lord in section 3 from 1828 in these words:

4 For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.
5 Behold, you have been entrusted with these things, but how strict were your commandments; and remember also the promises which were made to you, if you did not transgress them.
6 And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men.

The 1833 wording:

Behold thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall, but remember God is merciful: Therefore, repent of that which thou hast done, and he will only cause thee to be afflicted for a season, and thou art still chosen, and wilt again be called to the work; and except thou do this, thou shalt be delivered up and become as other men, and have no more gift.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ts-1833/12

[Cruiserdude]

It seems to me that the apostasy took place before 1832 when D&C 84:54-58 was received. Actually it seems to have been anticipated by the Lord in section 3 from 1828 in these words:

4 For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.
5 Behold, you have been entrusted with these things, but how strict were your commandments; and remember also the promises which were made to you, if you did not transgress them.
6 And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men.

The 1833 wording:

Behold thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall, but remember God is merciful: Therefore, repent of that which thou hast done, and he will only cause thee to be afflicted for a season, and thou art still chosen, and wilt again be called to the work; and except thou do this, thou shalt be delivered up and become as other men, and have no more gift.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ts-1833/12

Wow, isn't that interesting....

[Teancum1]

Some changes have been made in the early revelations and the implications within those changes are massive- at least to me.

D&C Section 5 verse 4 says:

“ 4 And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished.”

This is changed from the original Book of commandments which said this in 4:2

“ and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift”.

Joseph goes from one gift (to translate the Book of Mormon) to that being only the first gift and then Joseph has several gift including but not limited to:
D&C 21: 1 Behold, there shall be a record kept among you; and in it thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet, an apostle of Jesus Christ, an elder of the church through the will of God the Father, and the grace of your Lord Jesus Christ,

What other changes to the early revelations have been made that laid the foundations for a general apostasy that we are unaware of? Section 21 is quoted all the time by the LDS brethren that they are the final say- they now equate themselves to Joseph Smith.

[Telavian]

This is changed from the original Book of commandments which said this in 4:2

“ and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift”.

I know this was discussed already in a different thread. However if Joseph made everything up after the Book of Mormon, or it was from Satan, then what about the Kirtland temple?
Many witnesses of divine encounters or manifestations?

I think it is likely that God wanted Joseph to focus on the Book of Mormon, but I don't think he was limited to it. It is very likely, according to the scriptures, to return and continue the work.

[Teancum1]

This is changed from the original Book of commandments which said this in 4:2

“ and he has a gift to translate the book and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift”.

I know this was discussed already in a different thread. However if Joseph made everything up after the Book of Mormon, or it was from Satan, then what about the Kirtland temple?
Many witnesses of divine encounters or manifestations?

I think it is likely that God wanted Joseph to focus on the Book of Mormon, but I don't think he was limited to it. It is very likely, according to the scriptures, to return and continue the work.

I don’t claim to be an expert in this. I’m seeking truth. I have been burned so much by the history of the church that I don’t trust what’s in the D&C.

How much of what is written regarding Kirtland is trustworthy? I really do not know. To my knowledge they didn’t call the Kirtland temple a temple- if I remember right it was referred to as the Kirtland chapel. But that revision is gone down the memory hole.

I do feel like the Lord gave them the Book of Mormon and they neglected what it said.

Section 18:3… I give unto you a commandment, that you rely upon the things which are written;
4 For in them are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock.

So they were to rely of the Book of Mormon concerning 1. the foundation (organization and purpose) of the church. 2. The gospel. And 3. The rock- who is the Rock? Jesus.
So did they do that?

He did not command them to rely on the current revelations to build up the church and determine doctrine. It seems we are under condemnation because we do not know what the Book of Mormon teaches about the gospel and Christ. Or if we do know- we do not teach it or follow it.

[John Tavner]

The problem with hte no other gift theory (and I have no dog in this fight- I'm agnostic towards Joseph, largely leaning towards he was either really deceived, or he chose to deceive others) but anyways - the problem with the "no other gift theory" is that The Lord declares in others scriptures to seek other gifts and that He will grant them if you ask. Gifts are of the Spirit- it would be odd to me if GOd was like "nah" you have the HOly Spirit in you, but i"m not giving you any other gift- so you can't demonstrate any other fruits of the Spriit. That seems extremely ungospel like. So I don't believe the "no other gift" thing is a correct understanding of that- Which brings us to another question- Was that revelation he received, if he received it, really from God- because God doesn't lie- nor does He contradict himself. Thus again leading me to believe that there was deception in the beginning, but I could be wrong.

[CaptainM]

From viewtopic.php?t=72195

31. March 27,1836 The dedication of the Kirtland Temple didn't accomplish anything. (see RLDS C.H. VOL. 2, pp. 33-45)

To Summarize:

Joseph, in his dedicatory prayer, prayed that the "ministers anointing...be sealed upon them with power from on high: let it be fulfilled upon them as upon those on the day of Pentecost; let the gift of tongues be poured out upon thy people, even cloven tongues as of fire, and the interpretation thereof. And let thy house be filled, as with a mighty rushing wind, with thy glory"

Yes, after many promises, and much labor and sacrifice over several years, and an hour dedicatory service, there was NO display of power. The people went home.

There was a LOT of fabrication and fables initiated by Brigham Young and others to solidify their positions to enable them to "fleece the sheep." A serious, unbiased research of the so-called miracles and manifestations will rock TBM's to the core. Anyone can pass down a a story or anecdote to impress their hearers.

[Teancum1]

The problem with hte no other gift theory (and I have no dog in this fight- I'm agnostic towards Joseph, largely leaning towards he was either really deceived, or he chose to deceive others) but anyways - the problem with the "no other gift theory" is that The Lord declares in others scriptures to seek other gifts and that He will grant them if you ask. Gifts are of the Spirit- it would be odd to me if GOd was like "nah" you have the HOly Spirit in you, but i"m not giving you any other gift- so you can't demonstrate any other fruits of the Spriit. That seems extremely ungospel like. So I don't believe the "no other gift" thing is a correct understanding of that- Which brings us to another question- Was that revelation he received, if he received it, really from God- because God doesn't lie- nor does He contradict himself. Thus again leading me to believe that there was deception in the beginning, but I could be wrong.

A couple of problems. First, I have seen changes in the revelations- revisions/ deletions/ additions- that cast doubt on what is written in the D&C. Some from Rob Fotheringham and several others. I have had to basically reject church history and then rebuild my knowledge based on what did not have revisions, etc. If the original revelations (including the Book of Mormon) were received through a seer stone, which I believe is demonstrably true, then why are there changes?

Second. The implication of Joseph losing the plates and interpreters due to his ignoring God will and the Lord calling him out as having a tendency to be persuaded by men says a lot about Joseph. He has had angels and Jesus Christ, the Eternal God appear to him and he rejects his counsel! I’m not condemning him but it does mean that he can do that again right? Was he influenced in other instances by persuasions of men? Very likely. All of the three witnesses left the church in part due to Joseph’s changing role and my guess is persuasions we’re a part of his changing role.

2 Nephi 28:14 says- they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

What is the difference between precepts and persuasions? Could the humble followers of Christ err because of the above reasons?

I am trying not to err but feel that until the truth is revealed in its entirety then I am going to err while listening to men.

[Teancum1]

From viewtopic.php?t=72195

31. March 27,1836 The dedication of the Kirtland Temple didn't accomplish anything. (see RLDS C.H. VOL. 2, pp. 33-45)

To Summarize:

Joseph, in his dedicatory prayer, prayed that the "ministers anointing...be sealed upon them with power from on high: let it be fulfilled upon them as upon those on the day of Pentecost; let the gift of tongues be poured out upon thy people, even cloven tongues as of fire, and the interpretation thereof. And let thy house be filled, as with a mighty rushing wind, with thy glory"

Yes, after many promises, and much labor and sacrifice over several years, and an hour dedicatory service, there was NO display of power. The people went home.

There was a LOT of fabrication and fables initiated by Brigham Young and others to solidify their positions to enable them to "fleece the sheep." A serious, unbiased research of the so-called miracles and manifestations will rock TBM's to the core. Anyone can pass down a a story or anecdote to impress their hearers.

This is what I’m talking about. We have bought the persuasions and precepts of men with regards to so many things. And we trust so easily words on pages that, unless it is the Book of Mormon, we will err.
I mean seriously- church history teaches so many faith building fables. If our faith is built on fables then where are we? Jesus is the truth. He is not a fable.

[Telavian]

From viewtopic.php?t=72195

31. March 27,1836 The dedication of the Kirtland Temple didn't accomplish anything. (see RLDS C.H. VOL. 2, pp. 33-45)

To Summarize:

Joseph, in his dedicatory prayer, prayed that the "ministers anointing...be sealed upon them with power from on high: let it be fulfilled upon them as upon those on the day of Pentecost; let the gift of tongues be poured out upon thy people, even cloven tongues as of fire, and the interpretation thereof. And let thy house be filled, as with a mighty rushing wind, with thy glory"

Yes, after many promises, and much labor and sacrifice over several years, and an hour dedicatory service, there was NO display of power. The people went home.

There was a LOT of fabrication and fables initiated by Brigham Young and others to solidify their positions to enable them to "fleece the sheep." A serious, unbiased research of the so-called miracles and manifestations will rock TBM's to the core. Anyone can pass down a a story or anecdote to impress their hearers.

If this is true then this changes almost everything. We can't trust anything at all.

[CaptainM]

From viewtopic.php?t=72195

31. March 27,1836 The dedication of the Kirtland Temple didn't accomplish anything. (see RLDS C.H. VOL. 2, pp. 33-45)

To Summarize:

Joseph, in his dedicatory prayer, prayed that the "ministers anointing...be sealed upon them with power from on high: let it be fulfilled upon them as upon those on the day of Pentecost; let the gift of tongues be poured out upon thy people, even cloven tongues as of fire, and the interpretation thereof. And let thy house be filled, as with a mighty rushing wind, with thy glory"

Yes, after many promises, and much labor and sacrifice over several years, and an hour dedicatory service, there was NO display of power. The people went home.

There was a LOT of fabrication and fables initiated by Brigham Young and others to solidify their positions to enable them to "fleece the sheep." A serious, unbiased research of the so-called miracles and manifestations will rock TBM's to the core. Anyone can pass down a a story or anecdote to impress their hearers.

If this is true then this changes almost everything. We can't trust anything at all.

Yes, dear brother, out of a good heart I have been beating this drum for quite awhile now. I have a few prominent detractors on this forum, but if I have helped at least one person, it will have been worth it.

I am so grateful that Joseph Smith was able to part the veil and be an instrument to bring forth the Book of Mormon (Mormon calls it the lesser things). I am very disappointed that he allowed his weaknesses to be exploited by satan to drive the simple, basic church of Christ back into the wilderness.

I love and revere the word of God in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is NOT Mormonism.

[John Tavner]

The problem with hte no other gift theory (and I have no dog in this fight- I'm agnostic towards Joseph, largely leaning towards he was either really deceived, or he chose to deceive others) but anyways - the problem with the "no other gift theory" is that The Lord declares in others scriptures to seek other gifts and that He will grant them if you ask. Gifts are of the Spirit- it would be odd to me if GOd was like "nah" you have the HOly Spirit in you, but i"m not giving you any other gift- so you can't demonstrate any other fruits of the Spriit. That seems extremely ungospel like. So I don't believe the "no other gift" thing is a correct understanding of that- Which brings us to another question- Was that revelation he received, if he received it, really from God- because God doesn't lie- nor does He contradict himself. Thus again leading me to believe that there was deception in the beginning, but I could be wrong.

A couple of problems. First, I have seen changes in the revelations- revisions/ deletions/ additions- that cast doubt on what is written in the D&C. Some from Rob Fotheringham and several others. I have had to basically reject church history and then rebuild my knowledge based on what did not have revisions, etc. If the original revelations (including the Book of Mormon) were received through a seer stone, which I believe is demonstrably true, then why are there changes?

Second. The implication of Joseph losing the plates and interpreters due to his ignoring God will and the Lord calling him out as having a tendency to be persuaded by men says a lot about Joseph. He has had angels and Jesus Christ, the Eternal God appear to him and he rejects his counsel! I’m not condemning him but it does mean that he can do that again right? Was he influenced in other instances by persuasions of men? Very likely. All of the three witnesses left the church in part due to Joseph’s changing role and my guess is persuasions we’re a part of his changing role.

2 Nephi 28:14 says- they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

What is the difference between precepts and persuasions? Could the humble followers of Christ err because of the above reasons?

I am trying not to err but feel that until the truth is revealed in its entirety then I am going to err while listening to men.

Oh for sure- very difficult ot trust D&C. I don't blame anyone for casting off mormonism- honestly my heart goes out to most ex-mos who become agnostic or atheistic if they've really done their research because the brainwashing and mental gymnastics that occurs- it poisons the well and makes it difficult to believe in God (because the way our tradition teaches it, you can't trust anything else but the "restored" church) So if the church is really corrupt, then all of a sudden you're confronted with its all corrupt and everything is a lie- even God- espeically since LDS teach to not trust inte Bible. Heck you see that quite a bit in quite a few people on the forum recently - they now think everything is a lie and many don't even believe in the divinity of Christ.

I believe in God and Jesus because of hte fruits in my own life and I know when I gave my life to God and released all I had to Him, He chagned my life- I was one way, and then I was another- in the blink of an eye. THere is no denying that. I could love and care about people- while beforehand it was like an act and though I did "good" things, it was for reward, not because I cared. I was miserable and didn't even know it and HE gave me life more abundantly.

So the seer stone theory is partly why I wonder if Joseph was really deceived or if he was a deceiver himself. He very may well have seen things that claimed to be God and Jesus- whether or not they were in actuality God and JEsus is another question (not trying to convince you one way or another, just explaining my point of view) The Book of Mormon has really good points in some areas (mostly because I believe it has hundreds a paraphrased verses from the Bible), but in others it slightly distorts the view of God, at least in my opinion, which contradicts teh New Testament and even take some typology to a different level that doesn't fit the old testament. I think I wouldn't have as much a problem with teh BoM if it was actually treated like old testament scripture (which it is mostly) rather than New Testament, but the way it is talked about in the church is very New Testamenty, but lacks certain information that is necessary. I don't really read the BoM anymore because I have been reading hte Bible for the past 2-3 years mostly and last time I picked up the BoM just a month or two ago I could see the hundreds of New Testament and old Testametn verses dispersed through out the Book of Mormon, but with slightly different variations- and usually it is changed to have an old testametn undersatnding of God rather than through seeing God through Jesus Christ (if you see the Son you see the Father/ if you know the Son you know the Father and no man had known the Father (his entirety) until Jesus Christ)- so I take issue with the "most correct book" theory- but that doesn't mean the BoM can't help lead you to God in some way shape or form. BUT the best lies use truth- but again that is the direction I am leaning- I don't have the hate towards Joseph at all- in fact I rarely think about him, which is sort of interesting considering 2 years ago I was an incredibly staunch defender of Joseph, but I believe God is merciful regardless what happens even if it was deception Joseph may ahve repented in the end, only God knows and Judgment is His.

That said, arguendo that Joseph was truly given gifts by God - absolutely, you're right he could mess up and be persuaded by men again. I think the difference between precepts and persuasions can overlap, but hte difference is that precepts are kind of traditional views- so perhaps he was persuaded to follow the precepts of men. I do believe that there is truth in that scripture - it matches Mark 7 which talks about how following hte traditions of men, they neglect the commandments of God. So in otherwords we often follow these precepts we think are of God, but forget teh commandments of GOd which are to love our neighbor- we get so caught up in going ot church that we don't help the person we see on the side of the road on the way to church (ive been guilty of that)

Yeah, we all err in someway- my only advice is to hope and ask that God Father you, believe He will correct your errors- because HE loves you - you may have some, but we ought not let the corruption become our status, rather let the blood and life of Jesus become or status - or in other words trust that God will leads us from error because HE loves us- and believing we can be like Him- as 1 John 3 says who ever has that hope is pure even as He is- if we lose that hope, then we uninentionally place unbelief in our lives and can prevent or resist God guiding us (that verse - the one about everyone erring and books being corrupt is another one of those small deviations that makes us lack trust for God and to fear- which is not of God- it is a microcosm of many slight deviations I believe long term can prevent faith from growing). (I"m not saying you are doing this, just something I"ve learned for myself) I think it is good to ask questions and I really believe if you love truth (and I believe you do) Then God will guide you right, and He will lead you because you are Son- Why would He not, it is in His nature- all we can do is yield and submit and believe, trusting in Him to guide us as the Shepherd- for what good is a shepherd if they don't lead us to green pastures- they are worthless and not worthy of being called a shepherd- so we must remember that Jesus is the Good shepherd and He will lead us as we let Him. I believe He has moved upon man and that ther eis truth in the Bible and especially in the NEw Testament- and if read with the intent to know God, we will know Him more and ought not fear, because in the New Testametn it shows us who Jesus is- the Way the Truth, and the Life- it shows us those who knew Him and what He taught- He and the revelation of Him is the rock of our salvation. Anyways that's my two cents.

[Bronco73idi]

All you people obsessed with apostasy and "going", or, "went off the rails" back in the 1800's.
We are all "off the rails" and have been for a century or more, so, what makes you think you can discern the times of Joseph and Brigham when your all blind as a bat.

I think the main point is if the church "went off the rails" at a certain point then we have a strong indicator that everything after that point is likely not fully of God.

If we believe Jesus parable of the 3 servants, we can easily come to the conclusion when……


No one believes the Lord’s words!

[CaptainM]

Let the Spirit speak to your soul:

1)If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2)And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3)Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

4)Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

5)And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee. (Deuteronomy 13)

[Alexander]

Here is the whole quote from Joseph:

Joseph Smith 1844 DHC
“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”

If one can’t tell his eyes had been close by then, one needs to think it through some more.

In my opinion, Section 3 was a warning to Joseph. Typically when the Lord warns someone about something it means he knows that someone is going to do it. With the Lord, usually “if” means “when”.

But, let’s not make the mistake of thinking that when one is warned about something, it’s going to happen next week. The Lord doesn’t think about time like we humans do.

Context bud.

Joseph opens his dissertation with a reading of the entire chapter of 2 Corinthians 11.

Which says things like:
"yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting..."

"President Joseph Smith read the 11th Ch. 2nd.Corinthians. “My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than any one in this generation; as Paul boasted"


He is boasting in his struggles and persecutions.

30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

[Telavian]

He is boasting in his struggles and persecutions.

After 1838 he got so arrogant. From church history it seems there were 2 Joseph's at least. One in the Kirtland era and one in the Nauvoo one.
There may even have been a distinct one before Kirtland.

People change over time however his change was very drastic. "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

[John Tavner]

Yeah... Joseph again taking a scripture out of context - on the surface it looks like he is following Paul's example, and unless a close reading is done one would believe he is doing right, but Paul is speaking in a way to show what he has suffered for the kingdoms sake, to bring them to the Lord and saying to compare what he has suffered with those who claim to be minsters and new apostles of Christ. Joseph is basically taking a piss and saying "look at me" I"m better than all these guys. He isn't boasting in his infirmities at all or rather very little, instead he is saying "look I am better than these people because I have done greater things". Paul didn't talk about how he "converted more gentiles the gospel than Jesus ever did while living" or some other cockamamie claim. Paul is calling out the people for beginning to follow people who do not suffer for the gospel, but claim to be "true" ministers- Paul is trying to show that because he has suffered and still preaches it shows that it wasn't to be exalted that he abased himself, it is because he loves God and teh people. That he looks like a fool because he has not lifted himself up like those who claim to be true apostles and ministers of Christ- who claim to have authority and power and share their great deads. Unlike Joseph, Paul did not want to receive payment fro mthe people, he tried to not make himself a burden and for some reason the poeple thought because he didn't exalt himself that he wasn't teaching the truth, because he wasn't a burden to them and demanding great things, but instead humbled himself and suffered for the gospel receiving beatings and having to flee, that his suffering for the kingdom and for them is how they can know he truly loves them and seeks their well-being. Paul also throws in the fact as an after thought to make them think "oh also the signs and wonders of an apostle also occurred when I was with you" (by their fruits you will know them).

[Alexander]

“My enemies are no philosophers; they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down— but for the fools, I will hold on, and fly over them. God is in the still small voice
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if the doctrine that I preach is true, the tree must be good— I have prophesied things that have come to pass, and can still.
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they proclaim that I have been a true prophet, but that​ I am now a fallen prophet.
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I have been chained— I have rattled chains before— in a dungeon for the truth’s sake.
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I have set your minds at liberty by letting you know the things of Jesus Christ
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will you throw me away for a new man who slanders you?”